Egyptians protesting across the country

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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Guardsman Bass wrote:The ruling party's headquarters was set on fire (unfortunately, it's close to the national museum), and Mubarak has extended the curfew to the entire country as well as sending the army into several of the cities.
Speaking of, there has been some damage inside the museum (pictures and video at the link):

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... es-damaged (link-dressing isn't working, sorry)
Were Tut's treasures damaged?

Msnbc.com's Al Stirrett reports on vandalism at the Egyptian Museum.

By Alan Boyle

Update for 7 p.m. ET Jan. 29: Despite the best efforts of the Egyptian army and a human shield, some of the artifacts inside the century-old Egyptian Museum were damaged during a brief wave of looting, authorities in Cairo say. And it sounds as if the damaged goods include treasures from the tomb of Tutankhamun, based on comments from the country's top archaeologist as well as a little sleuthing by archaeologists looking at video footage shot inside the museum.

Margaret Maitland, an Egyptologist at Oxford University in England, matched up shots of the damage with pictures of artifacts from Tut's tomb and said that three gilded wooden statuettes of the boy-king may have been broken off their pedestals. In their original condition, one sculpture shows Tut standing on a boat with a harpoon at the ready, and another shows him astride a panther.

The footage suggests that a third statuette of a standing Tut was broken off right at the feet. Check out Maitland's blog posting at the Eloquent Peasant for that comparison.

Archaeologist Zahi Hawass, head of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, has acknowledged that two pharaonic mummies were destroyed, that other relics were knocked out of their glass display cases, and that the museum's ticket office was ransacked. But he said that no artifacts were taken out of the museum, and that the Tut collection was now secure.

Is he speaking the truth? That could well be, despite how it looks in the video footage. The latest information suggests that artifacts were indeed taken from display cases but recovered from the would-be looters. At this point, the best guess is that a few of Tut's treasures sustained damage but are not beyond repair.

The museum is still under peril, even though it's under guard by security forces as well as Cairo's citizens. The threat to Egypt's millennia-old artifacts began when fire broke out at the ruling National Democratic Party's headquarters, virtually next door, and at last report that building was still in danger of collapse. "What scares me is that if this building is destroyed, it will fall over the museum," Hawass told reporters at the museum on Saturday as he watched fire trucks try to extinguish the blaze.

The good news
So far, the saga of the Egyptian Museum has been more of a good-news rather than bad-news story. The current chaos in Cairo easily could have left all those priceless artifacts, including Tutankhamun's 3,300-year-old golden death mask, vulnerable to widespread looting. After all, that's how the situation played out for Baghdad's national museum in 2003 after the fall of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

It didn't happen that way in Cairo because of the high-mindedness of the government as well as its critics.

When fire broke out on Friday night at the ruling party's headquarters, Khaled Youssef, an Egyptian film director who has made movies critical of government policies, issued an urgent call on the Al Arabiya television channel: "I am calling on the Egyptian army to head instantly to the Egyptian Museum. There is a fire right next to it in the party headquarters," he said in a report relayed by Reuters.

As the fire raged, would-be thieves started entering the grounds surrounding the museum, The Associated Press reported. But other young men, some armed with truncheons taken from the police, formed a protective human chain outside the museum's main gates. "I'm standing here to defend and to protect our national treasure," one of the men, a 40-year-old engineer named Farid Saad, told AP.

AP quoted 26-year-old Ahmed Ibrahim as saying that it was important to guard the museum because it has "5,000 years of our history. If they steal it, we'll never find it again."

Another defender at the gates pleaded with the crowd not to let the looters in, shouting, "We are not like Baghdad!"

Finally, four of the army's armored vehicles took up posts outside the museum. Soldiers surrounded the building and moved inside.

AP said the soldiers rounded up would-be looters who made it onto the museum grounds and lined them up in a row. As the soldiers corralled one man toward the line, crowds outside the fence shouted, "Thief, thief!" A couple of the troops hit the man with the butts of their rifles and sat him down with others who were apparently caught inside the gates.

On Saturday, Hawass provided a damage report.

"I felt deeply sorry today when I came this morning to the Egyptian Museum and found that some had tried to raid the museum by force last night," Reuters quoted him as saying. "Egyptian citizens tried to prevent them and were joined by the tourism police, but some [looters] managed to enter from above and they destroyed two of the mummies."

In addition to the damage apparently done to the Tut figurines, Maitland noted that two more ruined displays matched up with well-known items from Egypt's antiquity: an array of soldier figurines and a wooden model boat from the tomb of Mesehti, a provincial governor during the 11th or 12th Dynasty (roughly 2025 to 1700 B.C.).

Treasures galore
Tut's golden mask is arguably the most precious of the museum's treasures — so precious that authorities will no longer let it travel out of the country, even though many other artifacts from Tut's time are currently on the road. (I had the chance to see the mask in Seattle in 1978 during the "Treasures of Tutankhamun" exhibit.) The 109-year-old museum serves as the central repository for the riches from Tut's tomb, which was discovered by Egyptologist Howard Carter in the Valley of the Kings in 1922. But there's lots more to protect. The highlights range from monumental statues of Amenhotep III and his family to Roman-era gold treasures dug up from Egypt's Western Desert.

Elizabeth Bartman, president of the Archaeological Institute of America, told me she was heartened to hear that the Egyptian people were so keen to protect their cultural heritage.

"If the reports about the human cordon around the museum are true, that's a very moving thing for me," she told me. "They regard their archaeological finds as so precious that it's worth their lives to protect them."

University of Pennsylvania archaeologist C. Brian Rose, the institute's past president, wasn't surprised by the reports.

"It's not possible to plan for the future unless one understands the past, and I think this is something that all Egyptians understand very well," Rose told me. "There's a great respect for the cultural heritage of Egypt — shared, I think, by I would say nearly all Egyptians. I hope that respect will keep the archaeological sites and museums safe from any harm during this period of conflict."

Even if the protesters and government forces share that respect for the museum's antiquities, the situation could still lead to unintended and unwelcome consequences. The fire next door is the main threat right now.

"Especially with Egypt being such a dry place — they have all these organic materials, they have textiles, they have ancient food, they have lots of wooden items — fire is a very scary proposition," Bartman said. "Let's just keep our fingers crossed that the museums are not going to be caught in the crossfire."

Update for 8:50 p.m. Jan. 29: The Daily Mail says Hawass has acknowledged that the looters targeted Tut's treasures.

"They tried to attack and rob from the showcases of King Tut, but they failed," Hawass is quoted as saying. "These people are criminals, they are not true Egyptians. The nine men were caught carrying skulls and two statues, one of which was broken. But the army are now guarding the museum and all the museums are now safe."
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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I had another talk on the phone with my dad.
Update from my dad: "The neighborhood security watch is stronger and they have fantastic set-ups. I feel safer here than in Houston." Bigger military presence, still no police, but more military. The military is doing fine. They aren't letting people into the neighborhood.

He's taking lots of pictures. Lots of barricades and they're wearing arm bands today. When my dad was walking to the pharmacy, one very religious person with a big beard actually told him "Everything is OK! Your safety before our safety!" Dad kissed him on both cheeks and he gave him a big hug.

Dad's company has released them to leave, but they're feeling very safe and are planning to stay. All the IPR people are planning to stay.

The Cairo General of Police is back in my dad's flat and all of his security are present. The police are back in their barracks but not present on the street.

My dad says that he's the safest guy in Cairo. Dad believes that the US offering evacuations out of the country is "gross hyperbole." They don't want to leave. US Airlines have stopped service to Cairo. CNN headline is that things are "boiling over" and my parents were walking on the street.
He told me a funny story about a curmudgeon he knew who didn't like anybody and especially didn't like Egyptians, whose opinions of Egyptians have skyrocketed during this episode. I'm impressed too.

There's been sporadic gun fire going on, but he hasn't heard much of anything in the past hour. Tomorrow he's apparently planning a party.

He just heard gun fire. He figures that some of it is blanks and others are just warning shots from security and military. He just saw a UN car, so the UN is out and about as well. It just pulled into a parking slot at their flat and he's wondering what that's all about. Apparently the UN guy lives there.

My dad believes that the absence of police is a concerted effort by the Mubarak regime to create insecurity and show the people that they need him. It's not working, because they're taking care of their stuff and their neighborhoods, and it's very impressive. The people are rising to the occasion. They're only looking for looters, though, and they're letting people go if they're not suspicious. They're stopping EEEEEVERYBODY. Making people open trunks, etc etc...
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Prannon wrote:My dad believes that the absence of police is a concerted effort by the Mubarak regime to create insecurity and show the people that they need him. It's not working, because they're taking care of their stuff and their neighborhoods, and it's very impressive.
I think it is true. Also, Mubarak's motivation is twofold - he wants the police to secure key government buildings in Cairo but keep everything else unprotected. As usual though, there are citizen militia cells to guard the peace - a common feature of all revolutions where the people are organized spontaneously and largely support the protest. It is good to hear citizen militia squads are doing that good in Cairo.

Some lolbertarians are already drowning in hysteria and speaking about islamic takeovers and "Egyptian stock market collapse" (seriously now, when people are hungry and live on $2 per day with little prospect of employment, the stock market is hardly any representation of what is going on in the nation).
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Stas Bush wrote:
Prannon wrote:My dad believes that the absence of police is a concerted effort by the Mubarak regime to create insecurity and show the people that they need him. It's not working, because they're taking care of their stuff and their neighborhoods, and it's very impressive.
I think it is true. Also, Mubarak's motivation is twofold - he wants the police to secure key government buildings in Cairo but keep everything else unprotected. As usual though, there are citizen militia cells to guard the peace - a common feature of all revolutions where the people are organized spontaneously and largely support the protest. It is good to hear citizen militia squads are doing that good in Cairo.

Some lolbertarians are already drowning in hysteria and speaking about islamic takeovers and "Egyptian stock market collapse" (seriously now, when people are hungry and live on $2 per day with little prospect of employment, the stock market is hardly any representation of what is going on in the nation).

I still think its too early to say for certain what kind of government (if any) will replace Mubarak-RE "islamic takovers" and whatnot. I certainly don't think a fundiegelical Islamist government would be a good thing for the types of young people who seem to be making up a big chunk of the urban revolutionaries.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Prannon, what's IPR?

I'd suggest that it's not just organized citizenry but also the Army presence as a "neutral" party (as much as certain people may want it to NOT be) that's key to negating the "police-withholding" strategy, especially if the Army already had more established goodwill before all this.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Stas Bush wrote:Some lolbertarians are already drowning in hysteria and speaking about islamic takeovers
Right now, there's no immediate danger of an Islamic takeover.

However, I can see the following happening 12-24 months down the road following current events:
  • The Constitutional Amendment in the Egyptian Constitution that forbids Religious-based Political Parties is repealed via vote, etc whatever.
  • This opens the door for Islamic-based political parties to rapidly coalesce or shift into open political form (Muslim Brotherhood), and gain control of the major levers of Egyptian politics.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Assuming the Islamist parties can get their act in order instead of infighting.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Assuming the Islamists are radical enough to be a problem. While it's unlikely they're as meek as European centre-right Christian Democrats on religion (who sometimes can get very religious zealotisish in more devout areas, too), they might not be able to do much. Turkey's under control of moderate Islamists, but very weakly, and as far as I know everything assholish Turkey is doing was already done by secular nationalists. (Hell, most of Turkey's modern asshole problems like "Insulting Turkishness" are nationalist/racist secular things related to the Atatürk cult, not the current leaders.)

Further, a multi-party parliamentary system, if they adopt one of those, probably will guarantee the Muslim Brotherhood won't get full power without coalition with secular groups, unless Islamism shoots up majorly in popularity compared to previous elections (where, granted, the party was banned so it's still impressive to get a small minority of seats).

And assuming there's not, like said above, serious divisions in exactly what all of these people, even if a majority of the populace and revolutionaries support it, think Political Islam means: one obvious example is the more militant jihadists vs the political islam proponents who operate more on the same fuzzy Christian Democrat feeling that since their religion says to help the poor and be a good person, it clearly must be assisted by the government in its task by passing Islamic laws and whatnot.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Well, see, that's the problem with overturning governments and revolution - the results are not predictable. Sometimes it leads to a better situation... and sometimes it doesn't.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Right now Mubarak has started talking about an 'orderly transition', which means he may decide to not run for re-election and let a new group take power unopposed.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Stas Bush's discussion of unrelenting drive to toss the whole of the regime is interesting in Egypt's case, since the protesters' ire seems more focused on Mubarak than anything else -- yeah, they could theoretically keep going until "the tycoons, all his relatives and handpicked goons from the government" (quoting Stas Bush here) were out, but to this layman it seems like Mubarak himself is the main target more than anything else about the Egyptian state, and that the protesters' opposition to other regime elements is mainly due to a connection to Mubarak -- for example, the reaction to the cabinet-shuffling (which to be honest is something I can't see working even in America).

Captain Chewbacca, where are you seeing Mubarak speak of "orderly transition," I coulda sworn I've seen SECSTATE Clinton saying the same phrase...

Iran's reaction to Egypt is... interesting, with the government declaring it to be an Islamic uprising -- a redux of 1979 -- in Farsi-language broadcasts but not bothering to in English or Arabic, while Mir-Hossein Moussavi also supports the protests but compares it to the June 2009 "Green" protests in Iran. (To be honest, I expect both the USG and the Iranian governments to vie for influence in a post-Mubarak Egypt.)

I have to say it's encouraging that a Islamist Tunisian exile upon his return specifically disassociated/disavowed comparisons to Khomeini and compared himself to Erdogan of Turkey, and specifically stated "I am not going to run for president of Tunisia, nor as a minister nor as a parliamentarian."

Also, word of similar unrest (to say the least) in Yemen.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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The ayatollahs are idiots for going around publicly praising the Egyptian revolution. If they absolutely had any sense, they should just mention it for a few minutes instead of expounding on it the way they are now. With commodities prices almost certain to skyrocket in Iran, they really shouldn't be acting all smug about it. Mubarak had similar attitudes of complacency when Ben Ali ran away from Tunis.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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It depends on whether or not the conditions on the ground in Iran support the potential for a renewed uprising, or whether "the people aren't going to rise" and the government knows it. That, and of course "the Israel factor," i.e. calling Mubarak's government "Zionist" (really? No more so than Anwar Sadat's, I would think). According to Christian Science Monitor's Dan Murphy, though:
There is been almost no discussion or interest in Israel in a public way from the tens of thousands of Egypt protesters who have taken to the streets this week. Average Egyptian's, like almost all Arabs, have a low opinion of Israel if prompted, but they're focused on reordering their internal affairs.
For what it's worth, apparently someone in the Muslim Brotherhood claimed that their backing for negotiator (for putting together a post-Mubarak government) is for Mohamed ElBaradei, and in turn he vouched for the Muslim Brotherhood.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Edward Yee wrote:Captain Chewbacca, where are you seeing Mubarak speak of "orderly transition," I coulda sworn I've seen SECSTATE Clinton saying the same phrase...
Maybe he's hoping that if he arranges just that, he gets to spend his retirement in comfortable exile in the States rather than an Egyptian prison.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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See, that might actually work... the question of how badly do the Egyptian people want to punish Mubarak versus merely removing him from political influence/office is a valid/good question.

On the one hand you have ElBaradei criticizing the Obama administration for not being more proactive (in public) about toppling Mubarak, on the other hand, according to the Los Angeles Times (albeit from a writer of their Washington Bureau) the USG's already planning for a post-Mubarak Egypt but not wanting to seen as overthrowing an ally... especially when the Egyptian people are more likely to do so themselves, and be more positively viewed at that.

By the way, Ayman Nour (chairman of El Ghad party) is quoted as announcing that a "People's Popular Parliament," with ElBaradei as lead representative, will negotiate with the army and other opposition members, that it wants the army to not play a political role (too late...), and "We will negotiate a peaceful exit for Mubarak for the sake of Egypt." (Of course, one could view "peaceful" as an ambivalent term...)

Incidentally, although it's not Egypt, Foreign Policy claims that the State Department was involved in the Tunisian revolution... albeit when Ben Ali's government went after Facebook.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Edward Yee wrote:See, that might actually work... the question of how badly do the Egyptian people want to punish Mubarak versus merely removing him from political influence/office is a valid/good question.

On the one hand you have ElBaradei criticizing the Obama administration for not being more proactive (in public) about toppling Mubarak, on the other hand, according to the Los Angeles Times (albeit from a writer of their Washington Bureau) the USG's already planning for a post-Mubarak Egypt but not wanting to seen as overthrowing an ally... especially when the Egyptian people are more likely to do so themselves, and be more positively viewed at that.

By the way, Ayman Nour (chairman of El Ghad party) is quoted as announcing that a "People's Popular Parliament," with ElBaradei as lead representative, will negotiate with the army and other opposition members, that it wants the army to not play a political role (too late...), and "We will negotiate a peaceful exit for Mubarak for the sake of Egypt." (Of course, one could view "peaceful" as an ambivalent term...)
Personally, I hope they let him go. I don't know what the Egyptian constitution has to say about impeaching a president, but it'd be damn near impossible to try him by the book under these conditions, and even being seen to deal out mob justice is going to cost the new government goodwill in Washington and elsewhere that they can ill-afford to lose.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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FSTargetDrone wrote:Speaking of, there has been some damage inside the museum (pictures and video at the link):
Word from Twitter is that the looters are actually Mubarak thugs sent in to make the protesters look bad.
No evidence, of course, but take it for what you will.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Edward Yee »

There's several accounts of that, though it seems to be regarding the "street" agitations and not the looting attempts of the the Museum.

According to FP again, the Iranian government treated Tunisia the same way they're treating Egypt -- "look at that Islamism go! *slobber*"

Incidentally, not sure how true this is (that is, as a motivation), but again from Foreign Policy:
Indeed, in Tunisia the demonstrations were partially spurred by the WikiLeaks cables that showed Washington deeply ambivalent about the regime and not likely to stand with it in a crisis.
Re: letting Mubarak leave into exile -- it reminds me of a motto I've adopted lately: "'Justice' is revenge in diguise."
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Wretchard of the Belmont Club made a very good point:
As the Mubarak regime goes into the last stages of existence, the race is on for the real treasures of a great state. Not the relics of antiquity, valuable as these may be, but the intelligence assets of a government which for decades traded them in exchange for Western financial and political support. With the ultimate fate of the Egypt uncertain, and the final extent of Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood’s influence uncertain, the disposition of those assets will assume the utmost importance.

The problem goes back to the difficulties of making sausage. People like to eat them, but not many want to know how they are made. The Western voting public likes to avoid being blown up in subways or being otherwise inconvenienced. That means they have to be protected from certain hard men.

To avoid the political risks inherent in interrogating terrorist suspects, much of the work was outsourced to foreign intelligence agencies, of which Egypt’s was one.

...

Like the more prosaic forms of outsourcing, rendition was aimed in part at finding people to do the jobs that “Americans won’t do.” Now, with the imminent transfer of the outsourcing firm to new management, there is the real prospect that the agents, contacts, files, sources and databases which made Egypt so useful will soon be in the hands of those against whom it was directed in the first place. They not only get the sausage, they get the sausage factory.
There's a bit more, but I distilled it down to it's core. There's also not just the US/Egyptian Rendition stuff to consider but also the Israeli/Egyptian stuff, how much did the Egyptians pass onto to the Israelis?

Fun times.
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CaptainChewbacca
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

The problem the US has is that it would LIKE to intervene and help with the transition, but as soon as it does the people will start screaming about American manipulation. We literally CAN'T do anything if we want a freer, more democratic Egypt.
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Edward Yee
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Edward Yee »

The funny part... that would apply if the USG went as full-bore (in public) as ElBaradei claims to want the USG to be (on toppling Mubarak as opposed to merely not propping him up), so it's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Big Orange »

Stas Bush wrote: Leaflet factories are still hot shit.
Just as well since people meeting up and spreading info on the Internet can be double edged sword when used in the fight against corrupt and stagnant authoritarian regimes: secret police units could also use the online world to spread disinformation, or worse still spy on websites frequented by the subversives and malcontents, then trace their accounts, etc. This is covered in Evgeny Morozov's The Net Delusion: How Not to Liberate The World and when Mubarak's associates did something as drastic as shutting down the Internet, in a sense Mubarak's internal security services got partially blinded.

Looking on the 24 hour news Cairo seems like a very big, overcrowded place and the uncaring Mubarak regime apparently could not cope with the huge number of pissed off young males who have no access to jobs and humane living standards crammed in together. It happened on a smaller, quicker scale in Tunisia. Israel and Saudi Arabia are likely shitting their pants by the development. Pakistan is seemingly one more major earthquake/flood away from being Afghanistan Mk. II. Kuwait's government is playing nice by allegedly giving out 3k in dole money to every Kuwaiti. And Iran's current regime is now on borrowed time, despite conducting the most ruthless and efficient clampdowns about 18 months ago.

It was a genuine shame what happened to those priceless Egyptian artefacts getting senselessly smashed up and I was heckling at the screen. :finger:
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Edward Yee
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Edward Yee »

According to Nick Kristof's Twitter feed:
Until now, ElBaradei has been all stature, no support. But defying curfew, speaking in Sq, gives him street cred he needs.
Although, I'm hearing conflicting reports though of him being viewed as an "outsider," an opportunist exile, in the vein of Ayad Allawi's reputation re: Iraq. Also from his feed:
Interviewed many folks at Tahrir. They see US as still supporting Mubarak. They plead for US to remove that support.
"So we're only supposed to get out of the way of his fall, but you (or "the Arab world") will complain if we topple him like ElBaradei wanted, which is it?" - my take

Finally, from his Facebook:
I just did a bunch more interviews at Tahrir Square, and the mood is giddy. I especially love the campfires. But it reminds me, painfully, of the equally giddy mood at Tiananmen Square before the shooting started. Some of the regime's moves -- earlier curfew, buzzing protesters with fighter planes, nasty media -- don't seem conciliatory at all.
While I've seen little Twitter reaction to these, not least because of how the curfews are commonly referred to as flouted, I see this one being unlikely if only because the Army would (hopefully!) realize that to turn on the protesters now, after all the public goodwill they've gotten over the weekend and their own longstanding reputation, would likely cost the institution potential influence in a post-Mubarak Egypt (which, according to the LA Times as I mentioned before, not even the USG is willing to prevent at all costs).
Big Orange wrote:And Iran's current regime is now on borrowed time, despite conducting the most ruthless and efficient clampdowns about 18 months ago.
Not that they recognize as much... one wonders how much they believe their own reporting, or rather whether they intend to make their claims a reality...

As for your words on the Internet, Big Orange, I'll note that it seems Iran (and presumably quite a few other countries) actually pulled it off (wielding the Internet for political repression) much more effectively than Egypt did -- one wonders if Egypt didn't have the cyberwarfare techniques/tools to do the same and the only solution they could think of was causing a "blackout"?

Prannon, thanks for explaining IPR.
"Yee's proposal is exactly the sort of thing I would expect some Washington legal eagle to do. In fact, it could even be argued it would be unrealistic to not have a scene in the next book of, say, a Congressman Yee submit the Yee Act for consideration. :D" - bcoogler on this

"My crystal ball is filled with smoke, and my hovercraft is full of eels." - Bayonet

Stark: "You can't even GET to heaven. You don't even know where it is, or even if it still exists."
SirNitram: "So storm Hell." - From the legendary thread
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