Battlestar Galactica Map Released

[Lonestar]

There were a lot of things in the Series Bible that would later be thrown out the window later on. The 200,000 population of Troy is probably one of them.

Like what? Obviously JEO killed off the "meeting aliens" thing, but what else?

[Uraniun235]

Apollo was originally supposed to get involved in a relationship with the President.

[Darth Yoshi]

Man, that's a lot of planets with off-plane orbits. Hell, Styx and Aquaria in the Delta system have nearly perpendicular orbits. There's no way that those planets are native to the system, because the way that planets form (from matter in the protosolar accretion disk) almost by definition ensures orbits along the ecliptic plane. I suppose they could all be captured rogue planets, but rogue planets aren't so common that a single star system, even one that's 0.16 light years across, can keep seven of them in stable orbits.

tl;dr - Multiple planets with weird orbits suggest an artificial system.

[Lonestar]

Apollo was originally supposed to get involved in a relationship with the President.

I just looked, it implies more that Bill Adama the one that:

A sexual chemistry between them will make itself felt, and the loneliness of their
situation will tempt each of them to reach out, but neither will act on the
temptation.

[starslayer]

Yeah, I'll also say that those systems are unstable, and they are definitely not naturally created. Not due to stellar perturbations (each binary is a little close, but I think the inner system should still be relatively unaffected), but simply due to the number of crazy features they have:

-as Darth Yoshi mentioned, planets with highly inclined orbits like that close to a star do not happen. The initial gas cloud's angular momentum confines it to a disk where all the major planets are going to form, and it does so before the star has even finished forming due to the momentum transfer of the collapse. You could try and say they were captures, but those captures will tend to severely disrupt the system, especially that gas giant. At the very least, I would expect the orbits to be rather eccentric, unsuitable for complex lifeforms.

-Two habitable planets at a gas giant's Trojan points. Ain't gonna happen; the gas giant itself will swallow all the material. Planetary migration wouldn't explain it either, as the giant would more than likely send the migrating bodies crashing into the star or eject them from the system very early on.

-The double planet in Helios Alpha. The tides on Caprica and Gemeron must be quite large, assuming they are both Earth-mass planets. This does not make them unlivable, nor does it mean that the system is inherently unstable; however, I would expect them to either drift apart or crash into each other due to perturbations from the other planets in the system if they are close enough. What I really expect would happen is that they would have coalesced into one body very early on in the system's history.

However, it is not outside the realm of possibility for so many habitable planets to form in such a system in stable orbits, although their climates would be much different from what is given I think. Nor is a quadruple star system like that impossible or even necessarily very unlikely; one similar system is visible to the naked eye. That system is Epsilon Lyrae, famous among amateur astronomers as "The Double Double." Looking at the map, it would seem to be the inspiration for the Helios system, as the orbital distances are all identical. However, the individual binaries should have orbits that are about four times longer than those given (about 10-1200 years instead of ~3-400).

[Uraniun235]

Apollo was originally supposed to get involved in a relationship with the President.

I just looked, it implies more that Bill Adama the one that:

A sexual chemistry between them will make itself felt, and the loneliness of their
situation will tempt each of them to reach out, but neither will act on the
temptation.

I looked it up:

Lee and Laura

His position as Laura's trusted advisor will bring him closer to her emotionally than he is to his own father. She will let him in on her secret and he will make it his personal mission to find a way to treat her illness without anyone - even his father - finding out the truth. Perhaps most unexpected of all, Lee will develop a budding attraction for Laura on a personal level - an unexpected quality of their close interaction and one that actually makes him a quasi-rival to his father, increasing rather than decreasing their conflicted relationship.

I misremembered, I thought it was more than that.

[Gil Hamilton]

The system has a similar sort of feeling as the design decision for the system in Firefly, where they packed fifty fucking Cowboy Planets into one system so they could simultaneously have a lack of FTL and not have the Firefly crew visit the same locations over and over again, then made it clear than anyone who questioned the mechanics of this system was a Fatty Nerd, because Cool Nerds don't question implausible things because they are Cool.

Ron Moore I think addressed this one time in like the second season about how Larson's "Life Here Began Out There" thing was sacred canon to the show and therefore he was willing to pitch the fact that terrestrial life very clearly evolved on Earth and not Larson's weird sci-fi Mormon idea, even though they didn't have to do it that way. That kind of hung them in the end, where they were forced to do "A wizard God did it." ending by having terrestrial life evolve simultaneously on Kobol and Earth despite them being according to Dr. Cottle, over a million light years apart in seperate galaxies.

For some reason, they decided that the Colonials coming from one system was also a sacred canon, so they were stuck with either having a couple Earth like worlds and a couple settled worlds in environment enclosures or making another "God did it!" system.

That kind of leaves somewhat of a bitter taste in my mouth, because nBSG decided to rely on "Uh, magic!" ALOT in that series to make the plot of the show work with their wacky ideas. That kind of implies that they weren't willing to do what I've heard in writing is called "Be willing to kill all your babies". Even if you have a really cool idea, you have to be able to pitch it if you can't make it work well. The makers of nBSG decided that they were going to do all their ideas anyway, to the point that by the end of the fourth season, blatantly supernatural and unexplained things were happening over and over again, all falling under the aegis of "God did it". This system kind of reeks of that.

[jollyreaper]

For some reason, they decided that the Colonials coming from one system was also a sacred canon, so they were stuck with either having a couple Earth like worlds and a couple settled worlds in environment enclosures or making another "God did it!" system.

The real head-slappers are also the inclusion of literary allusions to works from our own planet, Bob Dylan being a universal muse, and neckties. Trying to create a completely alien society with no influence from contemporary or historic Earth is freakin' difficult. Think of how bloody different the feel is across the different eras for Europe, Meso-America, the near East , the Far East, etc. Look at the Incas versus the ancient Egyptians. Compare that to the Chinese at the height of their empire. Even Japan, having drawn so much influence from the Chinese, has a distinct and different feel. The Romans aped the Greeks for much of their culture and architecture and still felt very, very different.

This is why most attempts at depicting alien cultures generally boils down to exaggerating something ripped directly from Earth's history. Klingons were originally space commies, then became a sort of space Mongol. Vulcans were dry philosophers with a scaled back Greek feel. Romulans had a degenerate Roman empire feel mixed in with a touch of 20th century police state. Trying to come up with something totally new is really, really tough.

Probably one of the most successful examples I've seen is the Wings of Honneamise. It's an anime set on an alternate Earth-like planet where humans are trying to make it into the space age. You have roughly 1950's technology but ALL the little things we take for granted are different. The shape of their currency, the conventions of how all the electronics were designed, automobiles, clothing, architecture. Everything felt completely convincing and practical, just a different approach to solving the same problem.

I still don't really understand why they even stuck with the Galactica name. So much was changed, it wasn't even the same story. They could have just as easily set the show 300 years in the future, have Earth as the center of a five system empire, have the war against the machines as the last big fight, and then the Cylons attack. Five different stellar systems provides the excuse for an interstellar war machine, the Cylon war provides the excuse for keeping the fleet around since there hasn't been a human on human interstellar war but they're wary of the Cylons, and the Cylons themselves could have just been called AI's. The only things leftover from the original show were a few words like Battlestar, Viper, Cylon, some character names and the premise of a sneak attack wiping out human colonies. Near as I can figure, they got it greenlit simply because of the name whereas the exact same thing with a different name wouldn't have gotten the time of day from the suits.

[Uraniun235]

That kind of hung them in the end, where they were forced to do "A wizard God did it." ending by having terrestrial life evolve simultaneously on Kobol and Earth despite them being according to Dr. Cottle, over a million light years apart in seperate galaxies.

On the other hand, it was so satisfying to see all those "nuhhh they would never do that!" naysayers from the early episode discussions here proven wrong.



Gil, seriously though, where are they saying "a million light years apart"? That doesn't make any sense.

[Skylon]

Gil, seriously though, where are they saying "a million light years apart"? That doesn't make any sense.

Adama says it when they get to Earth, stating something to the effect of the odds of humans evolving a million light years from the 12 colonies was pretty unlikely (yet it happened). I always took it as a throwaway, exaggeration type line. Visual evidence (like the crazy zoom out and in of the galaxy in the season 3 finale) doesn't support it.

[Stofsk]

I am pretty sure that was just hyperbole.

[Galvatron]

That kind of hung them in the end, where they were forced to do "A wizard God did it." ending by having terrestrial life evolve simultaneously on Kobol and Earth despite them being according to Dr. Cottle, over a million light years apart in seperate galaxies.

On the other hand, it was so satisfying to see all those "nuhhh they would never do that!" naysayers from the early episode discussions here proven wrong.

That might have been me.

I still have diminished interest in the nBSG universe because of that.

[Gil Hamilton]

Me as well. It was really freakin' lazy in my view that they decided to go balls out supernatural "God did it!" everything at the end. I think it diminished the universe a bit.

They could have done alot with Earth being the true home of mankind and have BSG set in the distant future, such as the Colonial fleet encountering branches of humanity that had long since fallen out memory of the Colonials that were incredibly different or were on different parts of the "colonization, development of AI, revolution, exile" cycle.

[Cecelia5578]

Me as well. It was really freakin' lazy in my view that they decided to go balls out supernatural "God did it!" everything at the end. I think it diminished the universe a bit.

They could have done alot with Earth being the true home of mankind and have BSG set in the distant future, such as the Colonial fleet encountering branches of humanity that had long since fallen out memory of the Colonials that were incredibly different or were on different parts of the "colonization, development of AI, revolution, exile" cycle.

Something tells me that would never have flown. I wouldn't be surprised if they thought the whole aspect of "Earth humanity in the future" was itself an overdone SF trope (??!!!), and that nihilism and "god did it!!**" would be more original and trendier. Maybe I'm just a little *too* bitter about nBSG.

** I never got over how so many self described atheists/agnostics/RAR science types didn't have a problem with nBSG religion.

[sirocco]

Me as well. It was really freakin' lazy in my view that they decided to go balls out supernatural "God did it!" everything at the end. I think it diminished the universe a bit.

They could have done alot with Earth being the true home of mankind and have BSG set in the distant future, such as the Colonial fleet encountering branches of humanity that had long since fallen out memory of the Colonials that were incredibly different or were on different parts of the "colonization, development of AI, revolution, exile" cycle.

A little StarGate touch?

[jollyreaper]

Probably would have felt stargate-like if the gods were running around directly. So long as they remained hypothetical or ancient-astronaut-but-not-divine that would have been fine. But bsg went full on with miracles that were not just clarketech but true freakin' magic. I find that as annoying as bumpyhead aliens.

[Skylon]

Something tells me that would never have flown. I wouldn't be surprised if they thought the whole aspect of "Earth humanity in the future" was itself an overdone SF trope (??!!!), and that nihilism and "god did it!!**" would be more original and trendier. Maybe I'm just a little *too* bitter about nBSG.

** I never got over how so many self described atheists/agnostics/RAR science types didn't have a problem with nBSG religion.

I was a little annoyed about the "life here began out there" angle, but that was something for whatever reason, carried over from oBSG. I kind of got over it once I was into the show. I didn't mind when religion was kept a little vague. The references in their sacred texts to Kobol and Earth, which were about as much help as if someone was to find a Bible 20 million years from now and read there was a place called "Jerusalem."

Humans evolving on both Kobol and Earth was a bit crazy however, although I guess it makes more sense than all humans being the result of the survivors of the 12 colonies (plus some skin-jobs).

Just to toss the question out there, what exactly was hand-waved as "God did it"? The big ones from memory are Starbuck's death/resurrection and the delusions of Baltar and Six literally turning out to be "angels" and that translating the notes of "All Along the Watchtower" into numbers somehow can bring you to a planet nobody had even heard of (real Earth).

Though you could chalk up the last to the most astronomically wildest stroke of luck ever. Kinda....sorta....yeah....

[Anguirus]

That kind of leaves somewhat of a bitter taste in my mouth, because nBSG decided to rely on "Uh, magic!" ALOT in that series to make the plot of the show work with their wacky ideas. That kind of implies that they weren't willing to do what I've heard in writing is called "Be willing to kill all your babies". Even if you have a really cool idea, you have to be able to pitch it if you can't make it work well.

I understand where you're coming from here and agree, to an extent, but the fact of the matter is this; to many, if not most, viewers of the show, it all did "work well" until something like the last twenty minutes of the last episode. I was a fan to the end, and still remember the show with fondness despite being dissatisfied with elements of the ending.

It is a rational and often correct choice to, when one is confronted with a conflict between science and the be-all-end-all elements of your metaplot, chuck the science instead of your metaplot. Especially since they had been doing that from the beginning.

I'm a science geek too (actually going to be a real professional scientist) but the flaws of BSG as an entertainment program have very little to do with how many Earth-like planets there are (keep in mind that much less was known about this when the miniseries was written) or even about the implausibility of all of the life forms being real-life Earth forms, as this was VERY early simply established as simply being the case in the show's universe. Rather, the flaws stem from a hazy initial game plan, a trend towards loss of focus in the latter halves of seasons, and a willingness to be excessively cagey with the audience to an extent that the writers themselves seemed confused about how the setting worked.

In my opinion, bearing in mind that his primary duty was to serve the needs of an entertainment program, Kevin Grazier did a fantastic job on the show. And I enjoyed both this diagram and that of the "'Verse" as geeky tie-in products.

I still don't really understand why they even stuck with the Galactica name. So much was changed, it wasn't even the same story.

As you say, not only did they have to sell the show (IIRC they were brought in to *do Galactica,* not any old sci-fi program) but also keep the fans happy. Some of these fans (albeit fewer and fewer as time went on) really did enjoy the connections to the older show. I suspect that keeping to Larson's original "Chariots of the Gods" vision was Moore's big concession to the original universe, but then he felt like he could change things up. (Of course as with everything else they were incredibly cagey about it.)

Man, I LOATHE Chariots of the Gods, but somehow we got Stargate and BSG out of it and I love both. Go figure.

[Cecelia5578]

I understand where you're coming from here and agree, to an extent, but the fact of the matter is this; to many, if not most, viewers of the show, it all did "work well" until something like the last twenty minutes of the last episode. I was a fan to the end, and still remember the show with fondness despite being dissatisfied with elements of the ending.

I disliked both the luddite ending and the ridiculous new agey mysticism throughout the series. Something tells me there is a connection-people who have no problem with New Age/Eastern Religion/metaphysical mumbo jumbo also having no problem with everyone abandoning their tech and almost certainly dying off in a couple of years.

[Bounty]

I think the distinction was more between "people who can live with fiction that incorporates themes of abandonment of technology" and "sadsack nerds".

[Skylon]

I disliked both the luddite ending and the ridiculous new agey mysticism throughout the series. Something tells me there is a connection-people who have no problem with New Age/Eastern Religion/metaphysical mumbo jumbo also having no problem with everyone abandoning their tech and almost certainly dying off in a couple of years.

Yet evidently they didn't, as evidenced by the fact that Hera is "mitochondrial eve."

Honestly, at this point the backlash against the ending is almost a parody of itself. It hit its apex for me when I heard a grizzled old nerd proclaim, upon hearing what the ending was, that "yeah, the original was better." I can't swallow that. No matter how shit you think the ending was.

The ending had to go a certain route once the writers pigeonholed themselves with the following concepts:

1) "Life here began out there."
2) Galactica and the Fleet were going to end up at Earth before recorded human history.

oBSG only had point one...it seemed primed to stick to "humanity originated on Kobol." If you add in point two you're stuck with either needing to conclude with nobody settling on Earth, everybody dying, or a way for them to settle the planet (the later of which lead to the issue of disposing of all the Colonial technology).

Going back to the original point of the thread, when I saw the title "Battlestar Galactica Map Released" I was expecting a map of Galactica's flight from the 12 Colonies to Earth. That would have been kinda nifty.

[Galvatron]

The ending had to go a certain route once the writers pigeonholed themselves with the following concepts:

1) "Life here began out there."
2) Galactica and the Fleet were going to end up at Earth before recorded human history.

I disagree.

Unlike oBSG, in-universe, nBSG's "life here began out there" was religious scripture in the Sacred Scrolls. In that context, "here" would have been the colonies and "out there" could have been Kobol or (preferably) Earth (of the future).