Egyptians protesting across the country

[mr friendly guy]

In lighter news, Fox news misplaces Egypt.

<snip image>

With Iraq of all places.

Its quite funny when some of the pro Iraq invasion side accuses the other side of not understanding the issues and unable to find Iraq on a map. While the pro Iraq side has a powerful member who not only can't find Iraq on a map, they have Iraq in front of them but misreads it for Egypt.

[Zaune]

Perhaps they were trying to make some kind of political point? Though I can't for the life of me think what that point might be.

[Zed]

In lighter news, Fox news misplaces Egypt.



With Iraq of all places.

How do you mean, news? This happened in 2009.

[FSTargetDrone]

How do you mean, news? This happened in 2009.

Quite so.

[Prannon]

This article from the BBC:

Egypt protesters step up pressure

Egypt's army has vowed it will not use force against the tens of thousands of people protesting for the removal of the regime of President Hosni Mubarak.

It said it respected the "legitimate rights of the people".

The statement comes ahead of a massive march planned for Cairo on Tuesday and amid a call for a general strike.

Meanwhile, new Vice President Omar Suleiman said Mr Mubarak had asked him to open dialogue with all political parties on constitutional reform.

Earlier, Mr Mubarak announced a cabinet reshuffle to try to head off the protests, replacing the widely despised Interior Minister Habib al-Adly.

Defying the curfew

In its statement, carried on Egyptian media, the military said: "To the great people of Egypt, your armed forces, acknowledging the legitimate rights of the people... have not and will not use force against the Egyptian people."

BBC Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen says the announcement is absolutely critical because it takes away a huge measure of uncertainty from the mind of any potential demonstrator.

And the BBC's Lyse Doucet, in the Egyptian capital, says people will see similarities to what happened in Tunisia, when the army's refusal to fire on protesters led to the ousting of President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali after 23 years in power.

She says the language will appeal to the thousands of people in Cairo's central Tahrir (Liberation) Square, where there has been a very friendly atmosphere between protesters and soldiers. They are trying to defuse any tension before the mass demonstrations planned on Tuesday.

The opposition has called for a million people to take to the streets of Cairo.

A similar mass march has been called for Alexandria.

Train services in Egypt have been halted between the curfew hours of 1500 and 0800 (1300 and 0600 GMT) and EgyptAir said it was cancelling all domestic and international flights between these hours, a move correspondents say may be intended to restrict attendance at demonstrations.

However, thousands of protesters are still camped out in Tahrir Square, defying the curfew.

Leaflets were being distributed to the crowds calling on the army to take the people's side and resist orders to move against them.

The AFP news agency reports that internet service provider, the Noor Group, went down on Monday - removing the country's last remaining connection.

'Bluffing'

In his statement, Mr Suleiman said the president had ordered new government policy to be outlined "in the next few days".

"It will include clear and definite policies to carry out his pledges within an expedited time frame in a way that would restore the trust in the Egyptian economy... and promptly deal with the priorities of tackling unemployment, fighting poverty and corruption and achieving the required balance between wages and prices."

Mr Suleiman also said that new elections would be held in some districts where there was evidence of irregularities in last November's parliamentary poll, in which Mr Mubarak's party won 83% of seats.

The statement follows increasing international pressure. The US state department has despatched a special envoy to Cairo, former ambassador to Egypt Frank Wisner, to urge Egyptian leaders to embrace political change.

Earlier Mr Mubarak's reshuffle made few major changes, with Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit and Defence Minister Gen Mohamed Hussein Tantawi - who also becomes deputy PM - both keeping their posts.

Interior Minister Adly was replaced by Mahmud Wagdi, an army general.

The line-up confirms a purging of those behind Egypt's economic liberalisation and growth over the past few years, analysts say, and a move towards a more military cabinet.

A number of businessmen holding economic posts have been removed. Some Egyptians have resented the influence of the tycoons.

Concerns are growing about the economy after a week of protests. World oil prices on Monday topped $100 (£62) a barrel amid fears of the ongoing unrest.

Few of the 50,000 protesters in Tahrir Square appeared appeased by the cabinet changes.

"We will stay until the coward leaves," the crowd chanted.

One demonstrator told the BBC: "This is not a new government. This is the same regime - this is the same bluff. [President Mubarak] has been bluffing us for 30 years."

Amid the protesters' call for a general strike, banks, schools, many businesses and the stock market were closed for a second day, with queues forming outside food stores.

Some police are back in parts of Cairo, having abandoned their posts on Friday.

Thousands of people also rallied in Alexandria, and there were sizeable demonstrations in Mansoura, Damanhour and Suez.

Israel has agreed to allow Egypt to deploy 800 more troops to the Sinai, the first such deployment since the 1979 peace deal between the two nations. The troops will ring the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu warned against the takeover of Egypt by "an organised Islamic group" as had happened in Iran.

The death toll from the protests so far is hard to assess but is thought to be at least 100. Human Rights Watch in Cairo told the BBC World Service its collation of deaths put the toll at 174.

Many countries are evacuating citizens, leading to chaotic scenes at Cairo airport as air traffic becomes congested and flights are cancelled or delayed.

[Phantasee]

I wonder if the conscript armies of Tunisia and Egypt were a mistake on the part of the regime. Tunisia's army refused to shoot the protesting citizens, and positioned itself as a defender of the people. Egypt's army is said to have a similar view. The soldiers are drawn from the same communities as the protestors, especially if the protests spill into the countryside. Identifying more with the man across from you than the man behind you is probably not a good trait for a regime-supporting soldier to have. Will we see a shift to more professional forces in the future in some of these states, assuming they aren't overthrown any time soon?

[weemadando]

I wonder if the conscript armies of Tunisia and Egypt were a mistake on the part of the regime. Tunisia's army refused to shoot the protesting citizens, and positioned itself as a defender of the people. Egypt's army is said to have a similar view. The soldiers are drawn from the same communities as the protestors, especially if the protests spill into the countryside. Identifying more with the man across from you than the man behind you is probably not a good trait for a regime-supporting soldier to have. Will we see a shift to more professional forces in the future in some of these states, assuming they aren't overthrown any time soon?

Tiananmen was an example against this. They assumed the local military units would refuse to act against the protest with the degree of violence requested, so units from outer provinces were moved in.

Its easier to get someone to shoot into a crowd of strangers than into a crowd that their family might be in.

[Zed]

Was it an assumption? I was under the impression that the city's military commanders actually refused.

[MKSheppard]

Tiananmen was an example against this. They assumed the local military units would refuse to act against the protest with the degree of violence requested, so units from outer provinces were moved in.

The 38th Group Army is one of the crack formations of the PLA -- it gets the newest tanks and equipment, basically it's the Elite Shep-publican Guard of the PRC.

For several days, it openly defied the orders it got from the CCP to move in and take a hold of things in Tiannamen. That's why they had to call in the 16th, 64th, 39th, and 27th Group Armies.

Adding to the fun, there were strong, uh, conversations between the 16th and 27th GAs over how to handle the protests and what level of force to be used to disperse the protestors.

[FSTargetDrone]

Video of Egyptian Army M113s positioning themselves between protesters and police:



Note how the soldiers seem to be gently pushing the protesters back, behind the vehicles.

More video at this link (some videos may be graphic).

[Psychic_Sandwich]

Tiananmen was an example against this. They assumed the local military units would refuse to act against the protest with the degree of violence requested, so units from outer provinces were moved in.

Its easier to get someone to shoot into a crowd of strangers than into a crowd that their family might be in.

China isn't really applicable when talking about conscript armies, though. They have de jure conscription, but they get and, as I understand it, have always had, enough volunteers that they are de facto an all volunteer army. Besides, bringing in troops from outside the cities has already failed in Egypt, and the military leadership has said that they won't move against the protesters.

[Siege]

Well, for starters, anything to do with aviation.

Wow, that's sure reason to paint all journalists everywhere as bloodthirsty vultures!

Clearly you DO care, otherwise you wouldn't be responding with such emotion.

The sole reason I'm talking to you is because I'm hoping other posters reading this exchange might catch on to the fact that your earlier statements are a load of bullshit.

And yeah, real classy - your profession gets criticized and your kneejerk reaction is "America sucks". That makes you look good, uh-huh.

Oh, the best defense is to attack, right? How's about you quote me saying that, dear? Or else, you know, fuck off?

Yes, that is my point - your response to criticism was to go on the attack.

I'll take that as an admission that you can't. Who's "real classy" now?

[Phantasee]

Tiananmen was an example against this. They assumed the local military units would refuse to act against the protest with the degree of violence requested, so units from outer provinces were moved in.

Its easier to get someone to shoot into a crowd of strangers than into a crowd that their family might be in.

China isn't really applicable when talking about conscript armies, though. They have de jure conscription, but they get and, as I understand it, have always had, enough volunteers that they are de facto an all volunteer army. Besides, bringing in troops from outside the cities has already failed in Egypt, and the military leadership has said that they won't move against the protesters.

China is also more diverse than Egypt. It is one of the largest countries in the world, both in population and area. It wouldn't be difficult to get units comprised of a completely different ethnic group to put down a rebellion by another.

[Artemas]

Saddam had a conscript army, but within it he had the Republican Guard, chosen for political reliability. If either Tunisia or Egypt had wanted, they could have had a similar setup. But instead they both appear to rely on other police and paramilitary forces.

[loomer]

Egypt does have a Republican Guard. It's even called the Republican Guard. It's only a small force, however, and it's loyalties aren't totally clear - probably with the establishment, but quite possibly only to their commander and whoever he throws his lot in. The reason they're likely loyal to the regime is simple. They're highly motivated, extremely well paid volunteers, not conscripts or volunteers just in it for the money.

[Skgoa]

Clearly you DO care, otherwise you wouldn't be responding with such emotion.

The sole reason I'm talking to you is because I'm hoping other posters reading this exchange might catch on to the fact that your earlier statements are a load of bullshit.

So far you have only proven her right.

[wautd]

How do you mean, news? This happened in 2009.

Quite so.

Hmm indeed. I blame the newspaper I took it over from.

[Pelranius]

Honestly, why is Mubarak still in office?

Anyone not in complete denial would know that the game is up.

[wautd]

Honestly, why is Mubarak still in office?

Anyone not in complete denial would know that the game is up.

Well, I guess he still got some backing by the West. He might be a dictator, but a strategic ally seems more important than having democracy in the Middle East (with more unpredictable results). It makes Obama's speech in Cairo 2009 rather ironic in my opinion.

[weemadando]

Honestly, why is Mubarak still in office?

Anyone not in complete denial would know that the game is up.

Well, I guess he still got some backing by the West. He might be a dictator, but a strategic ally seems more important than having democracy in the Middle East (with more unpredictable results).

Reality is a bitch eh?

Plus there's been a great collection of articles in the past 24 hours about the types, effects and quantities of weapons sold to Egypt by the US that are now being used against the protests.

[Lonestar]

Plus there's been a great collection of articles in the past 24 hours about the types, effects and quantities of weapons sold to Egypt by the US that are now being used against the protests.

Woohoo, Tear Gas and Rubber Bullets?

Oh yeah and low flying jets.
That the army is (apperently) not going to use against the protestors.

[Aaron]

It's probably a good thing. They'd be using live rounds otherwise.

[Prannon]

I'm on the phone with my dad again:

Just another day. Trying to avoid cabin fever. A lot of people have left now. Lot of companies.

There's a sign we picked up on the street. 'Foreigners in Egypt are protected by the people. They are our friends and neighbors. Their civil rights is always respected... We shouted TOGETHER to end the corruption!'

We had a nice walk and we stopped to buy some bananas and grapes. Went shopping yesterday. Saw one of my Japanese colleagues at the store.

It's actually getting boring now. There's nothing going on. No cars in the street. No honking. It's quiet. Eerily, uncomfortably quiet. No gunfire either. Not one shot today.

Our friends came to work. Things are getting back to work in our area. Food prices have doubled.

We're safe. Egyptians are talking to us. A guy on a motorcycle stopped, waved, and said, 'Hello, how are you?' We chatted.

Still no police. The military have left from Maadi, and are probably elsewhere, perhaps Tahrir.

Nothing going on. Food stores are open and they're getting deliveries. Things are looking ok.

The watches are still out every night, and will be until the police are back on the streets. The police are *starting* to come back but aren't here in Maadi yet.

Overall, just very quiet. There's just no violence going on anywhere that I can see. All of the mosques are preaching 'No violence!'

Dad makes a point that it's not just Americans, but ALL foreigners that are welcome in Egypt. Watching this, I think that this is the moderate Islam that everyone has been dying to see for so many years. Too bad that so many in the states will never get a chance to see it for all the hype, or understand it for what it is. Also, my dad says, "They're calling it the Lotus Revolution."

[weemadando]

Plus there's been a great collection of articles in the past 24 hours about the types, effects and quantities of weapons sold to Egypt by the US that are now being used against the protests.

Woohoo, Tear Gas and Rubber Bullets?

Woohoo, educating peoples that profiteering from misery is the American way.

Especially if that misery can be kept far away and behind a pliant dictator.

[Bakustra]

Clearly you DO care, otherwise you wouldn't be responding with such emotion.

The sole reason I'm talking to you is because I'm hoping other posters reading this exchange might catch on to the fact that your earlier statements are a load of bullshit.

So far you have only proven her right.

Let's go over this:

1. Broomstick says that journalists are "bloodthirsty vultures" and know-nothings.
2. Siege, as a journalist, takes offense at this, and asks to know what exactly her problem is with journalists.
3. Broomstick says that they make mistakes on aviation.
4. Siege says that's not a good reason to call them "bloodthirsty vultures."

Yeah, I'm not seeing how she's right, or how the fact that journalists aren't superhuman individuals with immense knowledge of every discipline of study under the sun merits condemnation. Sure, it can be annoying when journalists get facts wrong when it's something that you know about. But, how exactly are you supposed to address that meaningfully?