Limbaugh continues blatant racism. Insults Asians.

[Molyneux]

To call Rush Limbaugh an attention-seeking, brainless, dishonest, mucus-oozing slug would be to do great harm to the good name of slugs everywhere.

[Count Chocula]

In addition to agreeing with Zod, let me say this:
You probably did it because it was innocent fun.
He did it in order to MOCK an entire race.
The mockery-part is what makes it racism, because mocking someone for something related to their nationality/race (and language/an accent definetly is) is racist. If Hu Jintao was genuinely stammering and Limbaugh was making fun of that, it wouldn't (necessarily) be racist. But all he was doing was "hurr, he speaks another language, how dumb". How can this be anything BUT racist?

Let's turn it around - what if i was implying that american english was mereley unintelligible gibberish, the way Limbaugh did? How would you think about that?

To address your last sentence: I'd think you're being a dumbass, and laugh it off, or make Charlie Brown's mom's "wa wa wa wAAHHh Wahh Wa" noises myself. Of course, I speak the uber-mongrel American English, which has borrowed from just about every tongue on Earth and is the international lingua franca (for now), so I'd more likely think you're just being a dumbass. Oops, I said that already. You seem to have forgotten that Rush started off complaining about Fox not translating Hu's speech, and it was after that he went off into his "oohn chow moo goo gai pan ching chong rama lama ding dong egg fu yung" tangent or whatever it was he said. Ho shit, maybe I'm a racist because I know "chink" is a derogatory term I learned from my grandfather the WWII vet, or because I typed out the "" stuff in the prior sentence, or because I've never bedded an Asian woman! No, not so much.

That type of language was used to racially insult me when I was a kid. And my English was better than those bogan trash kids insulting me. Go fuck yourself with a ten foot pole. Preferably one with spikes. At least we won't have to put up with oooh so well thought out posts.

Boo fucking hoo, "friendly." I wasn't one of those bogans, and it's not my fault you had dumbass kids around you. Nobody here had a perfect childhood. Nor is it Limbaugh's fault, so get over your goddamn butthurt childhood angst already. Asshole. I'd say join the passive anal pain line behind Yee, but he got a death threat from a grown up bogan so he has a right (now) to be concerned.

Language (and stereotypes) that is typically used in a racist manner becomes itself racist. A good example of this are words like "nigger" or "faggot" - there is nothing insulting in the words themselves, but since they are continuously used by bigots for, well, bigotry, they are strongly assosciated with them and become insults themselves.
And what Limbaugh did was definetly language and stereotypes that is tpyically used by racists. Using racist language is racist, so he can't really weasel out of this (not that he has to, his listeners won't care anyway).

You're way off base here. In America "nigger" isn't used by people who aren't black because there is an ugly history attached to the word. Nowadays, anyway. "Faggot" likewise because dumbasses here have beaten and killed homosexuals. Actually, a tangent, I detest the use of "Fag" to describe homosexuals because I smoke (yes yes it's bad for me) and I'd love to put on my British accent and "light a fag" without getting funny looks. Of course, weird me, I also dislike the co-opting of "gay" because it puts a whole new prurient context to "The Gay Nineties" and any older songs that have "gay" in them, like "I Feel Pretty" from West Side Story.

Look, I think ALL of you are missing the real context: Limbaugh was primarily insulting FOX NEWS! Arch-conservative talk show guy was ranking on arch-conservative cable news channel by supplying his own nonsense "ni hao ma goo goo ga ga ow ow Boris Natasha choo cha" translation of Fox's coverage. Frankly, you're all rhino-heads for thinking that a 20-second, not so funny impression of Chinese by Rushbo=ZOMG RACISM!1!1! Get some fucking perspective or show a pattern that proves Rush is an anti-Chinese racist.

And Kanjorski's no longer a part of the US House of Representatives, and he's no longer getting even the rather minor amount of press coverage he got anyway; El Pigbo, Yukon Barbie, and the Witch, though, still are getting millions of listeners a day who have threatened elected representatives.

Now, think carefully: if one side's group that uses violent rheoteric is consistently ignored and marginalized, do you think that it cultivates violent actions? What a group that actively endorses such rheoteric, condones it, and awards it; do you think that that group might cultivate more violent actions?

Violent rhetoric? Are you stoned? Hey, how about Alan Grayson saying "If you get sick, America,...die quickly." He also said Palin instigated the Arizona shooting, a blatant lie. Oh, but he's out on his ass just like Kanjorski so what he said means nothing in Akhlut-Land, n'est-ce pas? You're a dumbass, or really scared of Rush and his ilk. On one side, we have a man who says controversial things and has gotten rich doing it because he competed for listeners and continues to do so, and on the other side we have two examples of men who represented ~ 690,000 voters each, and during their all-too-long stays in DC voted on trillion dollar spending and policies that affect 300 million people. Yet Rush has more influence! Try again.

Butt then again you must be a bioterrorist because when you were a kid you also played with your boogers and peed and shat on yourself before mommy and daddy toilet trained you! Shame on YOU!

OMG Child Chocla did stoopid thing, so it must be okay if leading conservative mouthpiece fossils ten times as old as Chocla did it also! UUURGH!

But if you say that Limbaugh has the same brain level as you when you were an unintelligible child who ate his own boogers, I guess it makes sense. Maybe you were an unusually intelligent child who was mature for his age, so mature to be on the same level as a renowned conservative fossil. Or maybe Limbaugh was just as dumb as a babbling baby boy. Probably more of the latter. I guess it explains a lot of things in Murrica that huge percent of its populace tunes into and takes cues from an old fossil with the intellectual capacity of babbling booger-eating boy lol am i rite?

Well I was unusually intelligent as a child (smartass was what I remember being called), but I seem to have lost my mojo. And who says I still don't play with body fluids Shroom Man Boeing Jumbo? I'm sure a few on this board are convinced I smear walls with my feces...maybe even one or two who posted in this thread.

My drive-by post is done.

[Bakustra]

Why do you even make posts like this? Frankly, you're a shithead of the first water, and no doubt you'll pull out the sad mask from your collection (because Amida knows that you don't have working facial expressions anymore) and complain and maybe cry a few crocodile tears because of this. Well, you know, when you pull out contentious stuff like this and post it, and then admit you're not going to even bother putting effort into a response, you're indicating that you have no respect for the opinions of others. This is therefore a fairly useless post in all doubt, but I'll bring out as many jibes as I can in hopes that I might get some response from you.

First of all, Serafina made a pretty big mistake, since she didn't know just how white your privilege is. You're right in that you can laugh it off, because the power that comes with oppression is not there to reinforce anti-honky sentiment, and so there is little that I can do that would actually effect you. Even tossing out various ethnic slurs based on your likely background are not particularly likely to be effective, because I doubt that you have much of an ethnic identity and that has also evaporated under white privilege too. And if I go with nationalistic sentiments, your political beliefs allow you to dismiss me attacking the US as well as just some lefty idiot.

So now I sympathize, if only so slightly, with the jackasses on Livejournal that babble about how white people just can't understand racism, because you exist and show that they are right in your case. I hate you for that. I honestly hate you for bringing me to sympathize with that. But I can move past my hatreds, unlike Limbaugh! Zing!

Now, there are many problems here. One that I can identify immediately is that your approach to people mentioning how racist language has hurt them in the past is to tell them to suck it up and also to stop blaming it on you and Limbaugh. Like I said earlier, this is because you're so privileged that your eyes are themselves WASPs. However, the other problem is that you're taking the wrong message. What people are saying is that racist language is hurtful, and major media figures like Rush Limbaugh reinforce that by making acceptable, and you don't understand that so you spew garbage. Nothing but garbage.

Another problem is that you insist that a handful of representatives, and you lie outright about what Alan Grayson said about healthcare, which doesn't surprise me, since what he said is pretty goddamn accurate in context, and you also ignore that- oh wait, the bigger problem is that apparently a pair of representatives have more power and influence in the public than Limbaugh, and Palin, and the whole gang over in Teapartyland! Whatever you're smoking must be some seriously good shit- do you blend peyote and salvia in with the crack for that hallucinogenic tinge? In real life, Limbaugh has hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, tuning in. More people hear about what he says. He has a great deal of power to influence the public, since he reaches so many of them! Grayson can only influence those people he can reach, which is maybe a couple on Facebook, and a few via CSPAN and maybe he can get a slot on NPR, which is infrequent. But it's doubtful that you'll make a useful reply, so maybe I'm wasting my time here.

[Count Chocula]

First of all, Serafina made a pretty big mistake, since she didn't know just how white your privilege is. You're right in that you can laugh it off, because the power that comes with oppression is not there to reinforce anti-honky sentiment, and so there is little that I can do that would actually effect you. Even tossing out various ethnic slurs based on your likely background are not particularly likely to be effective, because I doubt that you have much of an ethnic identity and that has also evaporated under white privilege too. And if I go with nationalistic sentiments, your political beliefs allow you to dismiss me attacking the US as well as just some lefty idiot.

So now I sympathize, if only so slightly, with the jackasses on Livejournal that babble about how white people just can't understand racism, because you exist and show that they are right in your case. I hate you for that. I honestly hate you for bringing me to sympathize with that. But I can move past my hatreds, unlike Limbaugh! Zing!

You know what, I started to post a coherent reply to what you wrote but I've just read it again...and again. What the fuck are you trying to say? I'm white so I don't know enough to be hyper-sensitive to racism? Are you saying I'm racist? I'm The Man who's keeping you down? You misguided little git. Here's a hint: I'm American, which means in my case American Indian-Southern Italian-Lithuanian-Hungarian-German. So, to fit in your little skin color world, I'm a Scalphunter-Wop-Kraut sonofabitch. A white guy who tans up a nice bronze and likes fire water and oppressing people of color *I'm a smarmy asshole*? Sorry, my Lithuanian and Hungarian immigrant ancestors didn't make enough of an impression to get derogatory terms assigned to them. My son's all that AND Cuban/French; oh shit, he's a Redskin-Dago-Hun-Frog-Boat Rower! How ever will he make his way in the world?

You are one sick, sorry, bigoted little sack of bile. You assume I'm white, whatever that means, and that it defines who I am. Here's another hint, you wad of used Kleenex: my NOSE SIZE has had more of an influence on my life than my race(s). In fact, I should thank you for puking up that collection of pre-digested chunks of hate you probably call a well-thought riposte. But I won't, you racist son of a bitch. Here's a challenge for you, Fuck-Offstra: search my posts and show where I'm a bigot to the degree you've demonstrated in this post. I don't know what color your skin is, shit I don't even know in which country you live, and I don't really care. You. Are. An. Asshole.

More people hear about what he says. He has a great deal of power to influence the public, since he reaches so many of them! Grayson can only influence those people he can reach, which is maybe a couple on Facebook, and a few via CSPAN and maybe he can get a slot on NPR, which is infrequent.

Goddamn you're a dumbass. I only used two examples...we could spend days just compiling hateful things BOTH sides of the aisle have said! I picked a couple of Dems as counterpoint and could pick more, including media figures like Olbermann and Maddow, but you can use Google just as well as I can. You are one hundred percent wrong. Grayson and Kanjorski and the other 433 Reps vote on SPENDING BILLS and legislation! They make decisions that reach into the households of everyone in America! You are either ignorant or mendacious to aver that Limbaugh, who reaches an audience of like-minded people, has MORE influence than Grayson, Kanjorski and his ilk. Follow the money, dipshit. It's green, which should satisfy your tendency to judge on color since no humans are green. Congressmen contol more green than any hundred Limbaughs. And you're still a racist asshole.

[Akhlut]

And Kanjorski's no longer a part of the US House of Representatives, and he's no longer getting even the rather minor amount of press coverage he got anyway; El Pigbo, Yukon Barbie, and the Witch, though, still are getting millions of listeners a day who have threatened elected representatives.

Now, think carefully: if one side's group that uses violent rheoteric is consistently ignored and marginalized, do you think that it cultivates violent actions? What a group that actively endorses such rheoteric, condones it, and awards it; do you think that that group might cultivate more violent actions?

Violent rhetoric? Are you stoned? Hey, how about Alan Grayson saying "If you get sick, America,...die quickly."

How is that violent rhetoric?

He also said Palin instigated the Arizona shooting, a blatant lie.

How is that violent rhetoric?

Oh, but he's out on his ass just like Kanjorski so what he said means nothing in Akhlut-Land, n'est-ce pas?

Well, he didn't say anything about actually shooting someone or otherwise inciting violence.

You're a dumbass, or really scared of Rush and his ilk. On one side, we have a man who says controversial things and has gotten rich doing it because he competed for listeners and continues to do so, and on the other side we have two examples of men who represented ~ 690,000 voters each, and during their all-too-long stays in DC voted on trillion dollar spending and policies that affect 300 million people. Yet Rush has more influence! Try again.

Quick question: who held more power and influence in the 1870s, the unelected Nathan Bedford Forrest who managed to compete for listeners and start up a little social organization called the Ku Klux Klan, or Frank Welch, the US Representative for Nebraska from 1877-1878?

And how many of Alan Grayson's constituents sent death threats against anyone who disagreed with him? Hmm?

[Bakustra]

Oh man, I finally got you. All it took was a rant-filled post, but I got you. Now let's see if I can keep you here.

You don't know very much, oh Count. My point went sailing over your head, and I was wrong anyhow. I could induce rage in you. I did. Sorry, but I'm still amazed that I pulled that off.

First of all, you responded with wah wah wah, suck-it-up-bootstraps to people pointing out how they've been hurt by racist words, and smarming about how you'd shrug it off if somebody made fun of your language. My point is that you can do that because there is no oppressive power which morphs words like "honky" from being essentially innocuous, outdated slang into hurtful slurs. I then went on to muse that there was probably no real way (and I was wrong, wrong, wrong) to actually get under your skin, because as a white American your ethnic identity was likely merged and mingled and unimportant in this day and age, and that anti-American slurs, apart from not being racial, are again easy to shrug off without a source of oppressive power.

Now, I'm sorry that you couldn't understand that, but maybe you need to lay off the Limbaugh, or else the drugs. Now that I think about it, maybe it was the word "honky" that set you off. I might have to inform the people involved with race critical theory here- this may be the one white guy in the history of the USA that was legitimately offended by the word "honky". This may be a historical moment.

But since you've determined that anybody that brings up the words "white privilege" is a bigot, this explanation probably will not help matters. Now that I think about it, you may think that the term "white privilege" means that I'm accusing you of being a racist, which will quickly turn this into a massive headache, but the terms are distinct. I'd explain this, but I just looked closely at your response about Alan Grayson and it's possible that you may be too stupid or pig-headed to get any explanation I can offer. I guess I'll have to see if I can get a primer on "explaining concepts of race theory to possibly-hostile idiots" from a professor that teaches gen-ed social sciences or something.

Finally, your response to me about Grayson and the media is hilarious. If you have better examples than the lies and misleading statements you vomited out, why didn't you present them? Are you stupid or something? (Trick question!) You see, representatives don't really have the bully pulpit to influence what people think. They can make laws, but their ability to persuade people is limited unless they've managed to carve enough of a name for themselves that they get regular appearances on the news media. Limbaugh already has that name and has the power to shift the dynamics of the country, and he and the rest of the Tea Party Gang have already done so and are continuing to do so, and that is what you fail to understand. Good night sir, and good luck going through life with such obvious ignorance.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well I was unusually intelligent as a child (smartass was what I remember being called), but I seem to have lost my mojo. And who says I still don't play with body fluids Shroom Man Boeing Jumbo? I'm sure a few on this board are convinced I smear walls with my feces...maybe even one or two who posted in this thread.

My drive-by post is done.

You should be a conservative media personality, Chocla.

[Count Chocula]

You don't know very much, oh Count. My point went sailing over your head, and I was wrong anyhow. I could induce rage in you. I did. Sorry, but I'm still amazed that I pulled that off.

So sorry, how does your saying I have "white privilege" make you less of a racist? BTW, you're mistaking irritation for rage; nice try, though, you little race-baiting pogie you. Perhaps you can explain what "white privilege" is aside from the fact that my skin is (presumably) fairer than yours. Is it because I'm in the ethnic majority? Like cleaves to like, is that what you're trying to say?

Should I yearn for oppression, so I can (presumably) understand how you feel? Perhaps I should move to Mexico, or Peru, or China, or Spain, or Saudi Arabia, where I'd be the oppressed minority. Maybe then I'd feel your pain and people would call me honky, or blanco, or cracker, or round-eye, or infidel. Oops, that last one was religious bias; never mind. Plus, you have done jack and shit to address my original contention, you know the one where Limbaugh was mocking Fox News? You must have read and comprehended that at some point. On thread topic, I still fail to see where 20 seconds of Limbaugh goo-goo-chow-chow = RACISM! I'll concede offensive if you want to get all butt-hurt over that, but racist? Naah...the nasty yardstick for that is waaayyyy higher than some dippy impression on radio. I'm kinda happy for you that you had your fun mocking me, but you're still a racist 'tard and haven't addressed the issue. So fuck off and have a nice life.

[mr friendly guy]

Boo fucking hoo, "friendly."

Oh, poor man, did you show your idiocy again?

I wasn't one of those bogans, and it's not my fault you had dumbass kids around you.

I didn't claim that you dyslexic shithead. I pointed out that your actions were the same as those racists. I know reading comprehension isn't your strong point, I guess its because you spent too much time practicing Asian languages (poorly) that you neglected English.

Nobody here had a perfect childhood.

This is meant to address something? Oh wait, you are a Conservitard. You don't need to address the point. You only need to make up strawmen.

Nor is it Limbaugh's fault, so get over your goddamn butthurt childhood angst already.

Quote where I blamed Limbaugh for problems in my childhood or concede the point. But when a dipshit like you can't address the point, you resort to strawmen. Is that a stock standard trait for Conservitards? Avoid the opponent's points. Did you learn that from watching Sarah Palin? Eagerly awaits Chocula to show his inemptitude by asking what the point is. Come on, you know you want to.

Asshole. I'd say join the passive anal pain line behind Yee, but he got a death threat from a grown up bogan so he has a right (now) to be concerned.

Remember guys, when conservatives like Chocula get outraged at Muslims or angry when others flame him, its ok, because being butt hurt only applies to someone else. Oh poor man. Did we hurt you widdy biddy feelings? Would you like Kleenex with that while you go cry me a river?

[Bakustra]

You don't know very much, oh Count. My point went sailing over your head, and I was wrong anyhow. I could induce rage in you. I did. Sorry, but I'm still amazed that I pulled that off.

So sorry, how does your saying I have "white privilege" make you less of a racist? BTW, you're mistaking irritation for rage; nice try, though, you little race-baiting pogie you. Perhaps you can explain what "white privilege" is aside from the fact that my skin is (presumably) fairer than yours. Is it because I'm in the ethnic majority? Like cleaves to like, is that what you're trying to say?

Should I yearn for oppression, so I can (presumably) understand how you feel? Perhaps I should move to Mexico, or Peru, or China, or Spain, or Saudi Arabia, where I'd be the oppressed minority. Maybe then I'd feel your pain and people would call me honky, or blanco, or cracker, or round-eye, or infidel. Oops, that last one was religious bias; never mind. Plus, you have done jack and shit to address my original contention, you know the one where Limbaugh was mocking Fox News? You must have read and comprehended that at some point. On thread topic, I still fail to see where 20 seconds of Limbaugh goo-goo-chow-chow = RACISM! I'll concede offensive if you want to get all butt-hurt over that, but racist? Naah...the nasty yardstick for that is waaayyyy higher than some dippy impression on radio. I'm kinda happy for you that you had your fun mocking me, but you're still a racist 'tard and haven't addressed the issue. So fuck off and have a nice life.

Wrong, Count, wrong! You are wrong sir! First of all, I don't know why I went to all that effort to get under your skin when I could have just posted some random shit and you'd do it for me.

Secondly, white privilege means that you are considered white, or in more general terms a majority by a racist and oppressive society, and so regardless of your personal attitudes, you enjoy benefits from that. It literally says nothing about you as a person. What I meant, though, was that its presence had warped you as a person to where you dismissed people's saying that such statements are hurtful, but perhaps that's just because you're brain-damaged, in which case you have to remember to breathe to get that nice oxygen into your starved brain. Now, you will spin spin spin on the wheel of "angry white guy", which is an unfortunate phenomenon where individuals of a majority proceed to have meltdowns when informed that life can suck for minorities. You're at stage four: raging at academic terminology.

You shouldn't yearn for oppression, no. Instead, there is a little concept I can direct you to called "empathy". Learn to live it, learn to love it, and the world will be your oyster!

Your original contention is immaterial and dumb, though not of the same caliber as the rest of your stupidity. It also has the aura of self-denial about it, but I have a cold anyways and will not pursue that further. Look, it doesn't matter if he was using it to attack Fox News or not, it's hurtful to actual Chinese people (and more) either way. Most people can grasp that. Hell, most lizards can grasp that. But you apparently have less understanding then the typical whiptail or iguana.

Wait, I just noticed that you believe that white people are oppressed in Mexico, Spain, and Peru. Apparently I was right about you mixing drugs while smoking, and I'll have to print that out to tell kids "remember, this is how you know that winners don't do drugs". Hell, even the idea that the extra racial ill-will that exists in China and Saudi Arabia is comparable to American society is dumb, but not as obviously dumb as Spain, for the love of God. Do you think ever? I'm starting to seriously doubt it.

Chocula, have a lovely 2nd of February.

Now, Chocula, I wouldn't troll you if you weren't a liar and an ignoramus, both of which are things that you can help.

[Count Chocula]

Wrong, Count, wrong! You are wrong sir! First of all, I don't know why I went to all that effort to get under your skin when I could have just posted some random shit and you'd do it for me.

Secondly, white privilege means that you are considered white, or in more general terms a majority by a racist and oppressive society, and so regardless of your personal attitudes, you enjoy benefits from that. It literally says nothing about you as a person. What I meant, though, was that its presence had warped you as a person to where you dismissed people's saying that such statements are hurtful, but perhaps that's just because you're brain-damaged, in which case you have to remember to breathe to get that nice oxygen into your starved brain. Now, you will spin spin spin on the wheel of "angry white guy", which is an unfortunate phenomenon where individuals of a majority proceed to have meltdowns when informed that life can suck for minorities. You're at stage four: raging at academic terminology.

You choose to insult me as a person, but it says nothing about me as a person. Riight. You contend I'm warped as a person because I'm the skin-color majority on a racist and oppressive society, and thus dismissive of butthurt, but I'm the one who'd fucked up? Where is this "racist and oppressive society" you speak of so generally? Are you talking about the US? Where the President's black, and the former head of the Republican party is black, and Oprah is black, and lots of other people are white, brown, yellow(ish-not really, Asian skin looks more beige to me), etc.? Your whole "white privilege" argument presumes in your own words that I benefit from racism and oppression, yet you do jack and shit to show that racism and oppression. You're still looking like the racist fuck to me; so what if you hate white people? The principle's the same.

And you still haven't addressed, you know, the actual topic.

Pre-Post edit: wait wait, Fuck-Off-Stra's a troll? What a waste of time. I'd rather fling poo at Shroom.

[Duckie]

If you exist, you benefit from white privilege, Choc. It is literally the set of ways you are benefited by being white. For obvious examples I don't even have to know fuckall about being black to cite, Dudes don't cross the street to avoid you. You aren't assumed to be a criminal when in even mildly suspicious circumstances. Police are politer and friendlier to you on average. If the situation is dire, you're way less likely to go to jail or the chair for the same crime, and if you do it'll be for less long. You're far more likely to get a callback for a job interview than a man named Jamal. You get more respect from white members of society.

It is literally unavoidable, and I mean that in the literal sense of literal: being white in America means you get social benefits unless you live in the middle of the woods talking to no one writing Walden. Just as being male makes you automatically more credible-sounding to other Americans, statistically and measurably, when you speak authoritatively on a subject even if you don't want it, even if you don't believe in Privilege, even if other people aren't sexist on purpose, even if other people know about it too and try to avoid it. It's ingrained in the culture and can only change slowly. Every white person has White Privilege, even people who don't have Archie Bunker as a role model. What separates the wheat from the tares is those whites who accept the concept of privilege when it's explained and try to minimize the amount they exploit and exacerbate it.

But go ahead and deny that America still has endemic racism. In order to deny White Privilege, you must inherently deny that any form of racism now affects a large part of society. At all. I don't think you are prepared to, because we both know it exists. Subtle, less-scary racism that white people can ignore and scoff at, because hey out of sight out of mind (or more and more, in prison out of mind), and certainly they don't notice the way nobody yet gets treated as well.

I'm sure ignoring it will make it go away.

[Count Chocula]

But go ahead and deny that America still has endemic racism. In order to deny White Privilege, you must inherently deny that any form of racism now affects a large part of society. At all. I don't think you are prepared to, because we both know it exists. Subtle, less-scary racism that white people can ignore and scoff at, because hey out of sight out of mind (or more and more, in prison out of mind), and certainly they don't notice the way nobody yet gets treated as well.

I'm sure ignoring it will make it go away.

Welcome to the thread Duckie!

Prove there's endemic racism. Go ahead, if you have anything but insinuation. Oh by the way, if you really really want to bring up "cross the street" type racism, why don't you go ahead and start with Barack Obama's grandmother?

"The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know (pause) there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way."

That's Obama's view of his grandmother...you know, the one who raised him after his black father and white mother cast him off? That's HIM stereotyping, just like you and Fuck-Off-Stra are doing. That's not my experience, nor yours I'd gather. I'm not making the contention, you are, so go ahead and prove it. I don't cross the street because a black guy (or girl, hmmm) is on the same side as me and I'm not the exception. Shame on you for projecting.

EDIT: Is this the part where I'm supposed to run away? Well it's late and I have to get up early, to TTFN.

[Duckie]

Ahahaha.

Hyo, Choc. How you doing? I'm sorry I entered the thread after Bakustra already won it, but I've got some cleanup to do.

I refer to you a recent publication on ways being White carries benefits over being Black: (Duckie, 2011). It's actually included in this thread, just paragraphs above the bit you quoted. Still, if you require evidence, we could, for example, look at the criminal justice system: charge rates, conviction rates, average penalties. For example, did you know the jail time for blacks using cocaine is significantly higher than whites, and that this is codified by law? White people culturally tend to prefer normal cocaine, blacks crack, due to geographic reasons and random chance. Crack, despite being essentially the same, has a massively inflated jail time. We could look at wrongful conviction rates, and death penalty uses. Hell, we could look at the fact that being named Jason makes you many times more likely to get a job than Jamal. We could talk about perceptions of literacy and language use. We could talk about perceptions of intelligence. We could talk and talk and talk and you could even get a job in this and I could too and we could write papers together for the rest of our lives and we would never fully explore this topic.

But we won't, not yet. I'm going to ask you to confirm: Would you like to seriously deny endemic racism in modern American society? It's so casually prerefuted that I question whether you are not just speaking rhetorically and you really actually mean "I don't believe there's any racism because I've never personally consciously participated in it or experienced it," to which I'd say "Of course you haven't, it's fucking invisible because we eliminated all the visible bits and anyhow you're white, it's like saying "Well I've never seen discrimination against gays*""

*Yes, gays, piss off. Your gay nineties can go die in a fire, because "Oh I just hate the way those people took the rainbow and the word gay from us" is and always has been a bigot code phrase. It never was yours, and there's nothing wrong with being gay. Your objection is based upon your belief (whether conscious or not, and held by the majority of society- oh heys, straight privilege there!) that being gay is shameful and wrong. It must be poor parenting: your brother got bitched out about this a while ago, though at least he admitted in retrospect that he was unconsciously squicked and that it was a wrong thing to take moral offense to gay sex ed when it was pointed out.

EDIT: Incidentally, you again make the agent error: It's not about you crossing the street or not crossing the street. It's about other people crossing the street. Or rather, not doing it when you walk by. THIS IS NOT YOUR MORAL ERROR. White Privilege is not something you do. It's the contours of the society. I figured that you, being reasonably bright, or at least animate and conscious, would notice that "people calling you back for a job instead of a black guy" is not racism YOU committed but rather racism you benefit from, regardless of whether you want to or not.

White people need to chill. Nobody is accusing the individual white of being consciously racist, or racist at all, and many of them try not to be. But the society is racist, and a lot of them have trouble seeing the invisible racism, and white privilege can't be removed by individual action anyway because it's not an action but a state of being. It's like Americans who flip out upon seeing criticism of America (usually because they're average or model americans and thus see a criticism of america as a criticism of them): Nobody is criticising anything but your stubborn refusal to see this, because the first step to ending it is enough people admitting it exists. You are not personally at fault for white privilege. You are not even at fault for benefitting from it, since you can't not do so.

[Darth Yoshi]

To sort of add on to Duckie's post, consider the American Dream™. You know, a house, 2.3 (2.6?) kids, the works. The reason that the Dream™ includes a house is because for a lot of people, property is the primary way to pass down wealth. The housing boom of the '50s greatly contributed to this, with the government offering substantial subsidies and low interest loans for people who wanted houses. Sounds good, right?

The thing is, back in those days, white people were convinced that blacks moving into a neighborhood would bring property values down, so whenever it happened the white residents would all sell and leave, which (surprise, surprise!) drove property values down. So the neighborhood would become a black neighborhood with lower property values less than houses in white only neighborhoods, despite the fact both neighborhoods originally had comparable values. So when the next generation of blacks inherited those houses, they inherited property that was already worth less than white property. And since wealth and property are so closely entwined, that meant that blacks were stuck being poorer than whites, regardless of any action or belief on the part of the new generation of whites. That is what white privilege means: that because the system once blatantly favored whites over others, it will continue to benefit them without any overt action being taken by individual whites, simply through inertia.

[Straha]

Tempted as I am to dogpile, I'm not going to. Bakustra and Duckie are 100% right. I'd like to add something I saw posted recently that helped to clarify some changes in my ideas on whiteness and the sort of kneejerk "But I'm not racist!" response that I engaged in until a few years ago.

Questioner (off-camera): Um, as a white male, should I feel guilty for the sins of my fathers. I affirm that they exist, but should I feel guilty for them?

Tim Wise: No. You should feel angry. And you should feel committed to doing something to address that legacy. It’s like, for instance, with pollution, right? We think about the issue of pollution. Now none of us in this room, to my knowledge, are individually responsible for having belched any toxic waste into the air, or injecting toxic waste into the soil, or done any of the things… we didn’t put lead paint into the housing, you know?

Individually we’re innocent of that. But someone did that stuff, and we’re living with the legacy of it right now, or in this case might be dying with the legacy of it, getting ill, right?.

So it isn’t about feeling guilty about what someone did, even if you were the direct heir of the chemical company that did the pollution, but it is about saying, all of us in the society have to take responsibility for what we find in front of us. There’s a big difference between guilt and responsibility.

Guilt is what you feel for what you’ve done. Responsibility is what you take because of the kind of person you are, right? And so if I see a set of social conditions that have been handed to you, and which not only did wrong by othrs but elevated me and give me advantage that I did not earn, it’s not about beating myself up, I’m not responsible for that having happened, I’m not to blame for it, so guilt is totally unproductive

But in order to live an ethical life, to live ethically and responsibly, I have to take some responsibility for the unearned advantage, which means working to change the society that bestows that advantage. It’s not guilt, but it is responsiblity. It’s no different than looking at the issue of pollution or if you became the CFO of the company, you wouldn’t be able to come in and say, “I intend to use the assets of this company, and I insend to put them to greater use, and I intend to use the revenue stream we’ve got going, but that whole debt side of the ledger? No, I’m not paying any of that because I wasn’t here when the other person ran all that debt up. You should’ve gotten them to pay it before you gave me the job. Now I’m here, and I’m innocent.” We would realize that made no sense.

So isn’t about innocence and it isn’t about guilt, it’s about responsibility, that’s something we all have to take. White folks have to take it, people of color have to take it, uh, men and women have to take… everybody has got to take it, because we’re living with… if we don’t do it, no one does it, and it doesnt’ get done. We’re the only hope we have.

[Shroom Man 777]

There is no racism in America. Those death threats to that Senator are just liberal falsifications, written in aborted fetus blood-ink collected by homobortionists. There is nothing wrong with making fun of other languages, in the vein of skits from the period of heightened racism towards Asians. There is never any racism ever in America. There is also no social disparity caused by past racism, when white people had socioeconomic advantages over racial minorities. There is no "societal racism", and the fact that not too long ago the blacks were a systematically impoverished underclass unwelcomed by whites, and that they originated as slaves brought to work in America under white control, has no relevance to modern day socioeconomic and sociocultural conditions at all ever.

All the racists are committing suicide at the gates of Baghdad.

I am Count Chocla and I endorse this message.

[Bakustra]

Sanchez, baby, it's good to know that you're capable of recognizing your mistakes, but you can't erase them so easily.

Wrong, Count, wrong! You are wrong sir! First of all, I don't know why I went to all that effort to get under your skin when I could have just posted some random shit and you'd do it for me.

Secondly, white privilege means that you are considered white, or in more general terms a majority by a racist and oppressive society, and so regardless of your personal attitudes, you enjoy benefits from that. It literally says nothing about you as a person. What I meant, though, was that its presence had warped you as a person to where you dismissed people's saying that such statements are hurtful, but perhaps that's just because you're brain-damaged, in which case you have to remember to breathe to get that nice oxygen into your starved brain. Now, you will spin spin spin on the wheel of "angry white guy", which is an unfortunate phenomenon where individuals of a majority proceed to have meltdowns when informed that life can suck for minorities. You're at stage four: raging at academic terminology.

You choose to insult me as a person, but it says nothing about me as a person. Riight. You contend I'm warped as a person because I'm the skin-color majority on a racist and oppressive society, and thus dismissive of butthurt, but I'm the one who'd fucked up? Where is this "racist and oppressive society" you speak of so generally? Are you talking about the US? Where the President's black, and the former head of the Republican party is black, and Oprah is black, and lots of other people are white, brown, yellow(ish-not really, Asian skin looks more beige to me), etc.? Your whole "white privilege" argument presumes in your own words that I benefit from racism and oppression, yet you do jack and shit to show that racism and oppression. You're still looking like the racist fuck to me; so what if you hate white people? The principle's the same.

And you still haven't addressed, you know, the actual topic.

Pre-Post edit: wait wait, Fuck-Off-Stra's a troll? What a waste of time. I'd rather fling poo at Shroom.

Look at Duckie's post. Look at mine. The difference is that she presented herself calmly and reasonably, and I filled my post with insults and invective. That is trolling, because I do not seriously believe that you regularly indulge in a blend of various narcotics, or that you are organically brain-damaged from holding your breath too long, and I was perfectly calm when writing that, and I did so entirely to provoke you- in this case, to provoke you into staying around for a little while. I may have gone too far, but this is sadly entertaining to watch you spin around and around.

See, I'm saying that you're warped as a person because you have little empathy for individuals who suffered racial discrimination, little ability to connect where that discrimination came from and how it became acceptable, and little understanding of why discrimination is hurtful. Just having privilege doesn't mean that you're warped, seeing as everybody that's white gets privilege, and contrary to the version of me you've cooked up in your mostly-empty head (oops, I insulted you again!), white people are not all alike! Oh yeah, you're transitioning to stage five now.

Now, Duckie covered this pretty well, but just as an example, Frederick Douglass was very prominent in the 1850s and 1860s. Would you say that American society at the time was free of endemic racism?

[Big Phil]

But go ahead and deny that America still has endemic racism. In order to deny White Privilege, you must inherently deny that any form of racism now affects a large part of society. At all. I don't think you are prepared to, because we both know it exists. Subtle, less-scary racism that white people can ignore and scoff at, because hey out of sight out of mind (or more and more, in prison out of mind), and certainly they don't notice the way nobody yet gets treated as well.

I'm sure ignoring it will make it go away.

Welcome to the thread Duckie!

Prove there's endemic racism. Go ahead, if you have anything but insinuation. Oh by the way, if you really really want to bring up "cross the street" type racism, why don't you go ahead and start with Barack Obama's grandmother?

"The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know (pause) there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way."

That's Obama's view of his grandmother...you know, the one who raised him after his black father and white mother cast him off? That's HIM stereotyping, just like you and Fuck-Off-Stra are doing. That's not my experience, nor yours I'd gather. I'm not making the contention, you are, so go ahead and prove it. I don't cross the street because a black guy (or girl, hmmm) is on the same side as me and I'm not the exception. Shame on you for projecting.

EDIT: Is this the part where I'm supposed to run away? Well it's late and I have to get up early, to TTFN.

Choco-latte man... even though Bakustra is blatantly trolling, he's right and you're wrong. And saying shit like "prove there's endemic racism" when talking about the United States is simply absurd. Racism may no longer be codified into law, and it may no longer be as blatant as it was 50, 30 or even 10 years ago, but it hasn't gone completely away. Rather than lynching black people, forcing them to sit in the back of the bus, and spitting on them when they try to go to your school, however, it's taken other forms over the years. If you can't recognize that, and you're going to be pissy about it and insist on evidence even though it's all over the place and right in front of your face, then there's no hope for you.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shit, Sanchez tough guy bunch of pussies man is agreeing with Fuckoffstra in telling Chocla off. Now I've seen everything. Holy craps.

[SCRawl]

Okay, I think we can tone things down a bit. Which means that things will get toned down a bit. Do we understand each other?

Just to be clear: the childish baiting and trolling will not continue. Disagreeing is fine, debating is fine, but these schoolyard tactics are beneath us.

Also: Sanchez's request to excise the (accurate) accusations of trolling and its direct responses has been granted.

[Akhlut]

Prove there's endemic racism. Go ahead, if you have anything but insinuation. Oh by the way, if you really really want to bring up "cross the street" type racism, why don't you go ahead and start with Barack Obama's grandmother?

38% of the prison population is black; only 12% of the general population is black.

Additionally: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... su6001a4_w

"The proportion of housing units classified as inadequate in the United States in 2009 was 5.2%, a percentage that is unchanged from 2007 (Table 1). Female householders were 1.1 times more likely to occupy inadequate housing units than male householders. In 2009, by race/ethnicity, non-Hispanic blacks had the highest odds of householders living in inadequate housing (2.3), followed by Hispanics (2.0), American Indians/Alaskan Natives (1.9), and Asians/Pacific Islanders (1.1) when compared with non-Hispanic whites. "

Inadequate housing is, of course, a much greater problem for the poor then the rich. Now, given that there is very little differences in abilities, intelligence, and the like between races, what might account for this? Systemic/endemic racism, mayhaps?

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... u6001a15_w

"Among females aged 2--19 years, obesity prevalence was 24% among blacks, followed by 19% among Mexican Americans and 14% among whites. A somewhat similar pattern was observed among women aged ≥20 years, with black women having a substantially higher prevalence of obesity (51%) than Mexican-American women (43%) and white women (33%). Among males aged 2--19 years, Mexican Americans had the highest prevalence of obesity (25%), with similar prevalences observed among whites (15%) and blacks (18%). The higher prevalence of obesity among black men aged ≥20 years (37%) than among whites (32%) and Mexican Americans (31%) is largely attributable to the differences among younger (aged 20--39 years) men. There was little difference in the prevalence of obesity across racial/ethnic groups among older (aged ≥40 years) men."

Now, in America, healthier food is pricier as well as more time-consuming to make, so it is generally eaten more often by the more well-off. So, again, why is obesity more prevalent in minorities, if it is more of a disease of the poorer in the US?

Do you need more? I can keep going.

Also, how is Alan Grayson's rhetoric violent in any manner? Perhaps untruthful or exaggerated, but I've seldom seen you bitch about Michelle Bachmann's crazy and blatant lies, Christine O'Donnel's lies, Sarah Palin's outright lies, or Rush Limbaugh's lies and overt hypocrisy.