Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

[Vympel]

Alright now I might hold off changing anymore images. I've only changed the stacking on the capture of Iserlohn entry, and that was only two sets of two images. My browser stacks them depending on window size too.

Thor Hammer targeting is an interesting issue - I discussed this with Chris before and he noted tha when Iserlohn was captured the Thor Hammer targeted the Admiral's flagship, so surely it should've been able to centre on the Vulture's Claw?

[Vympel]

Anyone speak Japanese? I have managed, through painstaking effort, to determine the name of a lot of unnamed standard Galactic Empire battleships (those used by Rear and Vice Admirals in particular - i.e. those with unique livery over the Goldenbaum crest) used in the series, with the exception of one - the battleship of Rear Admiral Patolicken, which you can see on the last entry (i.e. the one with the big red Y shape).

According to my Fleet File Vol. 8, this vessel in Japanese is the ランゲンベルグ - translated uselessly by Google as "Rangenberugu". The only reference I can find on this bad translation on google is something involving a winery to which it is adjacent.

For an idea of how useless this is, keep in mind that (then) Rear Admiral Reuenthal's flagship in My Conquest Is A Sea of Stars is "モルオルト" which google translates as "Moruoruto". Which is actually supposed to be Morholt, from the fucking legend Tristan and Isolde! Get it?

Perversely, Mittermeyer's flagship in My Conquest translates perfectly as what it's supposed to fucking be - i.e. Grendel. You know, from Beowulf. Get it?

(I'm getting the names from the website that lists all the currently available Fleet File Volumes, of which I own all to check them closely)

EDIT: My best guess, plugging the original Japanese directly into google, is Langenberg. Anyone agree?

[Darth Fanboy]

You sure that "Rangeberugu" wouldn't be better translated as "Langenberg"? That would fit in with the Germanic naming of the Empire.

EDIT: Well shit, just read your edit. Yeah that makes the most sense.

[Vympel]

What's weird is that its "Rangeberugu" and not "Langeberugu". I'm probably missing something about the Japanese language.

I notice some dead images in previous posts. Annoying, I'll have to replace them. What image hosters out there are better / more reliable than imageshack? That these images just disappear after being uploaded isn't acceptable. Where the fuck are they going?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

What's weird is that its "Rangeberugu" and not "Langeberugu". I'm probably missing something about the Japanese language.

Japanese has no R or L sound, but one that is roughly intermediate. It's always transliterated into English as R, though. A transliteration into Japanese of "ran" and "lan" would both be written ラン, but the symbols themselves are ra and n.

I don't speak Japanese, but since it's from German, ランゲンベルグ to Langenberg is exactly how I'd have translated it, too.

[Vympel]

Cool, thanks for that. I'll make the changes in due course (I intend to name every ship I possibly can if the name is known).

Just need to find a new image hosting service. Fuck's sake, even last week's entry already has dead images!

[Vympel]

Added an image of Grendel and Morholt, replaced a dead image of Brunhild attacking, as well as a better quality picture of our first look at Brunhild, to the 4th Tiamat entry.

What do people think - too big, should I have imageshack resize them?

[Darth Fanboy]

Ok so I am caught up to episode 84.

That was unexpected.

[Uraniun235]

I'm not so sure the two systems differ so much at the beginning with respect to Yang and Reinhard. Reinhard couldn't have advanced nearly as far as he did without his patron at the top of the Empire; if Yang had been similarly supported/sponsored by Truniht, he would have shot up the ladder much earlier on and been in a superior position to direct the Alliance military. Similarly, he would then have been in a far better position to protect himself politically against paranoid politicians, and to grasp political power if he wanted, much as Reinhard did.

I think the biggest difference is that Yang had no such ambition. I suspect that if Yang had the political ambition to do so, he could have played the game and built off of his success and fame at El Facil to be a real shining star in the Alliance Star Fleet. But he didn't, because he didn't give a shit about earning glory or grasping power or overthrowing pervy old Emperors, or any of that; he wanted to ride out his commission, retire as early as possible, and spend the rest of his life reading and writing history.

Heh. That's my point, more or less.

Reinhard wanted absolute power, when he had only one real card to play: his own great personal ability. The Imperial system was set up to give it to him- both because his sister's access at the top level gave him a great advantage of favoritism, and because once he became powerful, the system worked to a dictator's advantage.

Yang did not want absolute power. He didn't even want command, but he had the qualifications to use it. In a really meritocratic system he would have had responsibility thrust upon him, and would probably have borne up admirably under the pressure- as he usually did when forced to fight, so far as I know. He shouldn't have been allowed to retire at thirty; what decent military lets successful admirals quit at will in the middle of a war?

But Yang lived in a system that did not engage him- the political dealing quite rationally disgusted him, the senior admirals were all too often foolish. Charismatic, yet megalomaniac officers played too great a role in the planning of offensives, and so on.

Granted, many of these same problems applied on Reinhard's side of the line. But the Empire at least contains a mechanism by which young aristocrats are pushed to rise extremely rapidly, to the limits of their talents... which in Reinhard's case gave him all the power he'd need to win the war (and, of course, stage his coup).

The Alliance, in this respect, failed Yang and thus failed itself. It didn't earn his active, enthusiastic support, and it didn't effectively recognize and develop his talents either.

Whereas the Empire- as distinct from the Goldenbaum Dynasty- did earn Reinhard's active support; its aristocratic, autocratic principles resonated with his ambition. And did effectively recognize and develop his talents- he was promoted very quickly because he kept winning battles at every turn, and his sister's favor wouldn't have done him a damn bit of good otherwise.

What if the Alliance had been as effective at developing and using Yang's potential as the Empire was at developing and using Reinhard's?

Sorry, but it's not like Yang would have been inspired to ambition if only his superiors weren't so inferior. The Alliance Star Fleet could have been the most gallant and competent force in the history of human written fiction, and Yang still wouldn't have been at all interested in climbing the ranks. The series shows us time and again that Yang really, really wishes he could just go home and do history for the rest of his life. The only reason he's even in the military is because he couldn't afford to go to college otherwise. If the war hadn't been going on for a hundred years, he would have gone into the history division or something, served his time, and been back in the civilian world doing civilian stuff for the rest of his life.

At every step of his advancement, Yang wouldn't have gone on if the Alliance was competent and not corrupt. If his CO hadn't been a fuckup at El Facil, Yang wouldn't have been put in charge of civilian evacuation; he would have either been killed or captured by the Imperial fleet, or escaped under someone else's command, and either way not made a name for himself. If Paeta hadn't been a glory-hound jackass, Yang would never have been in a position to take command of the fleet and show his prowess. If the Alliance hadn't been full of bloodthirsty maniacs, Yang wouldn't have been needed after the capture of Iserlohn Fortress.

There's no amount of "social support" that would lead to Yang wanting command and responsibility for the lives of millions of men, outside of strapping him down and forcibly pinning the rank insignia on his uniform. Yang's rise to power was basically an accident, and frankly Yang was only necessary because the Alliance was so rotten and corrupt. Asking about a hypothetical super-meritocracy that would somehow recognize Yang for his genius and put him at the top is no less contrived than the hypothetical "evenly equipped" fleet battle Schenkopp dreamed of between Yang and Reinhard.

[Vympel]

Ok so I am caught up to episode 84.

That was unexpected.

Semi-ruined by the fucking narrator in the previous episodes though, right?

Did you like what they did with the credits? Watching it again so long after they had changed made me go "oh, I see what they were doing there".

If Paeta hadn't been a glory-hound jackass, Yang would never have been in a position to take command of the fleet and show his prowess.

Nitpick, Yang didn't get to take command of the fleet because Paeta was a glory-hound jackass (though he was) but because Paeta didn't want to leave Vice Admiral Pastoll to his fate and join up with the 6th Fleet. Paeta is much more sympathetic and understandable in his incompetence in Episodes 1 & 2 / Overture to a New War than he was in My Conquest Is A Sea of Stars.

One thing that's interesting about the events of 4th Tiamat is that even though Yang was instrumental in saving the Alliance fleet from being entirely crushed, he wasn't promoted. Normally, you'd figure the next step for him would be to make him a Rear Admiral and place him under the command of a Vice Admiral or Admiral in another fleet. Probably has something to do with his status as a staff officer. In the Empire, when Mittermeyer and Reuenthal were Commodores at 6th Iserlohn they each commanded (very) small fleets.

[Darth Fanboy]

Semi-ruined by the fucking narrator in the previous episodes though, right?

Did you like what they did with the credits? Watching it again so long after they had changed made me go "oh, I see what they were doing there".

Thankfully I had been skipping the "episode previews" for the most part and had no idea it was going to happen. As for the credits I mostly skipped them also but after watching them again I do see what was happening. Not that I don't think the scenes were any good but when i'm watching 5-6 episodes in a row watching the credits in between teh first and last one I watch seems a little redundant.

Now i've watched the 4th season openings/closing all the way through and I'm seeing some clues as to what will happen, although i'm ultimately feeling a little cheated that:
Spoiler

the only encounter between Yang and Reinhard was so brief and less significant than it could have been, and I really was looking forward to what their second meeting could have been like. It was a very interesting plot point to kill him and i'm interested as to how season 4 will develop with one of the two main characters being gone. Granted Kircheis was dead after the first season and it didn't harm the story to me.

[Simon_Jester]

Sorry, but it's not like Yang would have been inspired to ambition if only his superiors weren't so inferior. The Alliance Star Fleet could have been the most gallant and competent force in the history of human written fiction, and Yang still wouldn't have been at all interested in climbing the ranks.

Maybe this is off-base, but I think the degree to which he was uninterested in doing the job in front of him was partly encouraged by the system, the Sisyphean aspect of it all. He came in convinced war was pointless and wanting to retire ASAP, yes, but the Alliance reinforced that belief at every turn.

So much of his best advice was ignored. So many of the powerful figures around him were bloodthirsty idiots. It's no wonder that he went through (as far as I can tell) every day of his career looking forward to the moment when he could finally stop; you'd have to be inhuman to have job satisfaction in that kind of an environment, because it's not engaging, not rewarding to work hard for people who take everything you do for them and throw it away or ignore it.

And I cannot help but wonder if Yang, who when you get right down to it is a very reactive sort of person, might have risen to the challenge a bit more on his own had he gotten more encouragement to do so. But hell, probably not.

[Vympel]

Thankfully I had been skipping the "episode previews" for the most part and had no idea it was going to happen. As for the credits I mostly skipped them also but after watching them again I do see what was happening. Not that I don't think the scenes were any good but when i'm watching 5-6 episodes in a row watching the credits in between teh first and last one I watch seems a little redundant.

Really? The narrator Spoiler

outright says that "this will be the last time Julian and Yang ever have a late night chat" during the episode.

Its pretty much a good thing you didn't catch his drift, though

Now i've watched the 4th season openings/closing all the way through and I'm seeing some clues as to what will happen, although i'm ultimately feeling a little cheated that:
Spoiler

the only encounter between Yang and Reinhard was so brief and less significant than it could have been, and I really was looking forward to what their second meeting could have been like. It was a very interesting plot point to kill him and i'm interested as to how season 4 will develop with one of the two main characters being gone. Granted Kircheis was dead after the first season and it didn't harm the story to me.

Spoiler

Yang and Reinhard's entire conflict, when you think about it, is a series of inconclusive encounters. 4th Tiamat, Astarte, Amlitzer ... and of course, Yang could've killed Reinhard at Vermillion, but didn't. Reinhard could've wiped out Yang at the Battle of the Corridor, but stopped.

[Vympel]

Maybe this is off-base, but I think the degree to which he was uninterested in doing the job in front of him was partly encouraged by the system, the Sisyphean aspect of it all. He came in convinced war was pointless and wanting to retire ASAP, yes, but the Alliance reinforced that belief at every turn.

So much of his best advice was ignored. So many of the powerful figures around him were bloodthirsty idiots. It's no wonder that he went through (as far as I can tell) every day of his career looking forward to the moment when he could finally stop; you'd have to be inhuman to have job satisfaction in that kind of an environment, because it's not engaging, not rewarding to work hard for people who take everything you do for them and throw it away or ignore it.

And I cannot help but wonder if Yang, who when you get right down to it is a very reactive sort of person, might have risen to the challenge a bit more on his own had he gotten more encouragement to do so. But hell, probably not.

One thing that always struck me as a huge miscalculation by Yang was his belief that capturing Iserlohn Fortress would encourage the FPA to seek a peace treaty with the GE, from a position of strength. When you consider the FPA has spilt so much blood in the Corridor up to that point, that they had endured expedition after expedition from the GE, it was pretty damn naive for a student of history to think that after such a big win they'd decide to stop fighting.

[Darth Fanboy]

Really? The narrator

Oh, that's what you were referring to. I don't assume too much on these things because it could have Spoiler

meant Julian's death just as easily, which is what I was more leaning towards guessing. It also could have meant Julian going off on another mission and being separated down the line or Julian growing out of Yang's shadow and never bothering himn again. I admit it was difficult for me to think that, knowing there would be 20-25 more episodes of content, that Yang wasn't going to be around for the next season. (I tried to go as spoiler free as possible into the series but I knew some details about Kircheis, Amlitzer, and the eventual dual civil wars)

snip spoiler

Yes, which is why I was hoping for more interaction, if not outright resolution.

EDIT: fixed spoiler - Vympel

[Darth Fanboy]

One thing that always struck me as a huge miscalculation by Yang was his belief that capturing Iserlohn Fortress would encourage the FPA to seek a peace treaty with the GE, from a position of strength. When you consider the FPA has spilt so much blood in the Corridor up to that point, that they had endured expedition after expedition from the GE, it was pretty damn naive for a student of history to think that after such a big win they'd decide to stop fighting.

Well to be fair he wanted to study history, but that was interrupted and he never really got the chance to be a scholar he wanted.

But I don't think it was a miscalculation, the FPA had little to gain by pursuing the war into Imperial Territory and everything to gain by getting recognition and a treaty. The Alliance politicians were absolutely as incompetent as they possibly could have been in that situation.

[Vympel]

But I don't think it was a miscalculation, the FPA had little to gain by pursuing the war into Imperial Territory and everything to gain by getting recognition and a treaty. The Alliance politicians were absolutely as incompetent as they possibly could have been in that situation.

Well its what the people wanted to. The pols are only as good as the dumbasses who elect them, I suppose.

Btw fixed the spoiler in the previous post, my policy re spoilers in this thread is not to get ahead of where I am in the series, but anything before is obviously fair game. Some people watching may not be as far ahead, you see.

[Darth Fanboy]

Oh, so spoiler tags for everything that takes place after the latest review. Ok.

[Darth Fanboy]

Just finished the series in one last two hour stretch.

[Vympel]

What a show, eh? On to the Gaiden!

Oh yeah - edited the Capture of Iserlohn as well as the Battle of Amlitzer. Changes were minor:-

-Continue to correct spelling of Reuenthal's name (it's not Reuental).
-Corrected ship names:- it's Cu Chulainn*, not "Ku Horin", its Krishna, not Kulishuna, etc.
-Added the only time we see the 7th Fleet flagship Quetzalcoatl.
-Numerous minor grammar / typo errors.

*Funny coincidence, Admiral Droizen's custom flagship has virtually the same name (many different ways of spelling it), as seen at the end of the series.

I'll start on Operation Ragnarok soon. Well, Reuenthal vs Iserlohn, in particular.

[Darth Fanboy]

Is there any mention in the material you have of how much firepower the customized Imperial battleships (Brunhild, Parcivale, etc...) have over their standard counterparts? Anything else about Hyperion for that matter?

[Vympel]

Is there any mention in the material you have of how much firepower the customized Imperial battleships (Brunhild, Parcivale, etc...) have over their standard counterparts? Anything else about Hyperion for that matter?

Unfortunately its all in Japanese, so I have no clue. We do know from the very last episode of the Gaiden that Brunhild has more firepower than ordinary ships, its told to us explicitly when she's gifted to Reinhard.

[takemeout_totheblack]

I was always under the impression that customized ships didn't really focus on firepower, but rather on defense. In fleets that size what good would a little more juice on one more ship be?
Since this show deals with character shields much in the same way a weed whacker deals with grass, I always figured that custom or upgraded ships focused on armor, shielding, ECM, advanced sensors, reduced-proclivity-towards-massive-explosions, etc. You know, all the stuff you'd want your commanding officers to have so that they can stay alive and monitor the battlefield.
This of course excludes Fahrenheit's bow mounted Fuck Off Laser that we see fired precisely one time, but I always figured that to be the exception that proves the rule Spoiler

as his ship was destroyed soon after.

If your enemy can't see your fancy looking ship (which they probably can't for most of the battle), why telegraph the location of your commanding officer with noticeably superior firepower? It would be like holding a sign with a big arrow pointing to the ship, with a caption reading 'This ship is unique and probably belongs to somebody important! You should really shoot this thing!'

Also there may or may not be a blurb or line about the Brunhilde's expensive shield systems. I can't remember if I heard it from the show or the voices inside my head, so take that statement with a grain of salt.

[Crossroads Inc.]

That is true. I mentioned this earlier bu it is worth retelling. Unlike many other Space Operas, LotGH does NOT relay on "hero ships" but hero's. Not single super ships, but people able to command the fleets that ultimately win the day. Because lets face it, in a fleet of 50,000 star ships, the firepower of one ship won't make much of a difference, but the Commands from one ship make all the difference.

The "Hero Ships" in LotGH are just that, Command ships. They are the brains of the fleets, the centers that control the weapons of the fleet. Defense, shields, armor, that is what the ships focus on.
Also on the 'This ship is unique and probably belongs to somebody important! You should really shoot this thing!' Well that is mostly the ego on the Empires part. The alliance never goes in for Gaudy ships. ships like the Brunhilde are more the opposite... It is "We are so confident in our superiority, we will proudly proclaim THIS is our command ship!!"

[Vympel]

I was always under the impression that customized ships didn't really focus on firepower, but rather on defense. In fleets that size what good would a little more juice on one more ship be?

To ensure the ship survives a one-on-one engagement if it gets into one. Good offense is part of a good defence, so to speak.

This of course excludes Fahrenheit's bow mounted Fuck Off Laser that we see fired precisely one time, but I always figured that to be the exception that proves the rule

I'd hardly say that Fahrenheit's Asgrim is an anomaly in that respect - Reuenthal's Tristan has a similar weapon, apparently.

And don't forget that Alliance flagships are equipped with SCADS more cannon than their standard battleships.

If your enemy can't see your fancy looking ship (which they probably can't for most of the battle), why telegraph the location of your commanding officer with noticeably superior firepower? It would be like holding a sign with a big arrow pointing to the ship, with a caption reading 'This ship is unique and probably belongs to somebody important! You should really shoot this thing!'

Also there may or may not be a blurb or line about the Brunhilde's expensive shield systems. I can't remember if I heard it from the show or the voices inside my head, so take that statement with a grain of salt.

Brunhild has both new offensive and defensive technologies. Interestingly her gleaming white hull is emulated not only in Parzival but also on Bayerlein's flagship Nurenburg.

That is true. I mentioned this earlier bu it is worth retelling. Unlike many other Space Operas, LotGH does NOT relay on "hero ships" but hero's. Not single super ships, but people able to command the fleets that ultimately win the day. Because lets face it, in a fleet of 50,000 star ships, the firepower of one ship won't make much of a difference, but the Commands from one ship make all the difference.

The "Hero Ships" in LotGH are just that, Command ships. They are the brains of the fleets, the centers that control the weapons of the fleet. Defense, shields, armor, that is what the ships focus on.
Also on the 'This ship is unique and probably belongs to somebody important! You should really shoot this thing!' Well that is mostly the ego on the Empires part. The alliance never goes in for Gaudy ships. ships like the Brunhilde are more the opposite... It is "We are so confident in our superiority, we will proudly proclaim THIS is our command ship!!"

Alliance flagships are just as gaudy as Imperial flagships, if not more so, IMO. Practically each and every one is over 1km long, almost double the size of their standard line battleships, and equipped with enough guns to make it obvious that the ship is somehow special.

Imperial flagships are big too, but their size ranges from 772m (Mecklinger's Kvasir) to 1,210m (Lennenkampt's enormous Galga Farmr) - with most being just under 1km long.