Viability of modern religions in a newly fantasy setting

[Kojiro]

I apologise if this is the wrong area for this.

The question I wanted to ask the board is derived from a game world setting I'm writing. The idea is that the supernatural world, formerly distinct from ours is brought into contact with a modern, real world earth. Supernatural entities and magic become accepted (even scientificly understandable under their own cosistent rules).

Now I have no doubt that new religions would spring up around powerful entities that call themselves gods or are percieved that way. I'm also certain that no matter what there will always be some people who will cling to tradition, no matter how much evidence is presented. But I'm curious as to how main stream populations would handle religion when magic and gods are plainly visable. Would everyone convert? Would conversion happen over generations, dooming current religions? Assume there is no evidence of any of these major religions other than interpretation (ie no angels appear claiming to serve God but entities that could be labeled demons appear). Assume there are the equivalent to clerics/paladins in the world though only for new religions- all the old religions stay with the same level of godly interaction (or lack there of). People claiming to see angels or the virgin Mary are competing directly with 'I went to see Wiiku and asked for a new arm- and here it is!'

I can't help but think that people would flock to the religion that demonstrably works/has living accessable gods.

[Formless]

Well, I can't say how the old religions would react, but I can say that not everyone is going to flock towards these supernatural entities. Say for example that an Angel comes and preaches that there is a higher power he serves. Maybe he's just a con man, and wants to capitalize on human gullibility before some other angels come and announce that no, they are supernatural but there is no God that they know of.

Or maybe there are gods, and between Zeus and Thor having a lightning thrower's contest and Ra and Shiva arguing over who is more weird looking, there is no doubt of their existence. Even then, there will be many people who don't flock to them either. Most people will just be like "Cool. What's for dinner?"

On the other hand, if new religions spring up then the way people will react to them will be a matter of what they do and what they ask of us. If they ask for people to worship, some people might refuse to participate, seeing it as a waste of time or pointless. If they ask for blind faith in their leadership's judgment (going right on up to whatever deity they may or may not latch onto), some people are going to ask they demonstrate said qualities. Others will find the very concept of "blind faith" just as stupid coming from the mouth of a demonstrated god as coming from a human, for the same reasons. If the Gods ask for tribute, or threaten to throw temper tantrums if they don't get their sacrificial virgins every four years, they will get met with resistance. If they ask people to accept moral codes, there will be people who disagree with or take objection to said codes. Especially if said codes have pointless rules like the usual "don't eat this, don't wear this, don't look at porn, etc." and especially if they include stuff like "kill the brown people and the homosexuals, and the homosexual brown people". If they ask for the right to dictate politics and governments... well, you get the idea.

On the other hand, if they demonstrate philanthropic values, just plain don't give a shit about the affairs of men, or would actually prefer to be left alone people will respond to them accordingly. It all depends on the nature of the supernatural forces and how they chose to interact with the world.

[Spoonist]

If your fantasy world has gods then they should appropriate existing religions. Just a little game and they would get megas of followers.

But its all been done already.

[MacShimi]

Some religions will adapt, though the more mainstream elements of the three monotheistic religions will suffer greatly as there will be empirical proof that other gods exist. Some people are so committed to their faith that they'll outright ignore, or more often twist and misinterpret evidence into a form more conducive to their preferred metaphysics.

Example: Biblical creation, if taken at face value implies all creatures were created by God. This is the view that some religious extremists take. Yet there is abundant evidence of evolution, with intermediate creatures evolving from others. Hence some who still believe in a God, rationalise their belief by saying that there's some sort of 'intelligent design' in all creatures which therefore shows the existence of a designer who is, naturally enough, God.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 – 1860)

If we accept this maxim by Schopenhauer, then many religions will ridicule the existence or worthiness of other deities. Some will believe that these new gods are evidence of the Antichrist, of Shaitan or indeed any other tempter/liar. Some, like the Hindus will simply add more deities to their pantheon, and keep on the way they have been going for these last few thousand years. In essence the reaction from the religion very much depends on what it's metaphysics are.

Some so-called religions like Buddhism and Taoism actually don't worship gods at all, and are codes of ethics which attempt to allow people to live in harmony with reality. The mere existence of a god to someone who believes that the goal of living is to understand reality, live in accord with that understanding, and share it with others who will understand and accept it is no reason to worship it.

When the highest type of men hear Tao,
They diligently practice it.
When the average type of men hear Tao,
They half believe in it.
When the lowest type of men hear Tao,
They laugh heartily at it.
Lao-Tzu (604 BC – 531 BC)

But let's also consider the impact that empirical evidence of the existence of Gods would have on Atheism. It would fly in the face of scientific rationalism to deny the facts. Atheism, as a rational position therefore would no longer be a popular belief. After all, when everyone knows (not thinks, or believes but knows) that gods exist atheism, a hallmark of much scientific progress over the last few centuries in the west is fundamentally discredited. I'm sure that there would be some radical sceptics clinging to Clarke's Third Law, having ignored Clarke's first two laws, but their beliefs would, (most likely), be accorded the same respect that Scientology is by the mainstream media today, relying as it does on wilfully distorting the evidence to suit one's preferred version of reality.

For the record, I have two advanced degrees in the history of comparative religion. They represent my best judgement of the reaction of the 'ordinary believer.' When large power structures get involved things will grow more complicated. The Pope might state, for example, that the Northwest Semitic word 'Elohim' (which is used to refer to God in the Pentateuch) meant 'one of many' which implies that 'God is the only one worthy of worship,' not the only one in existence.

In the end it comes down to the situation you create in your story. If the new gods (please no Jack Kirby references), are attractive enough in ideology, or charismatic enough in person then they'll acquire many followers. If on the other hand, they act like capricious children with powers far greater than ours, they'll create resentment and a determination to kick them out.

It's your story, write it as you see fit. But if you're trying to be congruent to the real world, do some investigation into the worlds' religions before writing. Reading a few books and websites shouldn't take you long, and the implications should have a great effect on your story.

A good place for a beginner to start is with this recent book, which should be available at a good reference library. God Is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World--and Why Their Differences Matter by Stephen Prothero.

Good luck with your story.

[Kojiro]

Thanks for the replies.

Obviously atheists will have to rethink their position but this isn't going to cause major issues for atheists. Others which are more moral code than truth claim won't be affected- moral tenents of kindness, compassion or justice will remain true regardless.

Smaller religions will likely vanish for all purposes. Scientology for example I'm going to assume by writer fiat was destroyed, because I can

Essentially I'm going to evolve the major religions. These events would have to be accounted for as either new revelations or (as I assume many Christians would believe) that the time of Revelations has finally come. There's certainly no shortage of demonic seeming entities and other parallels to draw from for them. I'm thinking though that those of the Abrahamic traditions might finally put aside the differences for real in light of such things, the way racism would change if aliens rocked up and started exterminating humans. You might believe Mohammad, I might believe Jesus but until these demonic* creatures stop attacking we'll just agree that Hell is bad.

Another thing worth noting that occurs in the story is that humans lose control of the Middle East- it now rest comfortably in the control demonic*/undead forces (these forces are distinct and not friendly to each other). One of the main factions, the one this post is primarily concerned with, are those displaced from the region. Obviously they are overwhelmingly Muslim at the time they're forced to flee but when the story is set some 600 years later I'm uncertain what has become of their faith. Can Islam remain so insular under the circumstances? I think perhaps they can and the loss of things like global communications would only help.

I'm not sure what to evolve them into though, or how to resolve the fundamental differences. If it were easy someone would have likely done it already.

I'm curious as to what the default position would be now though. We're all born atheists, some of us stay that way but theist doesn't seem the right word for a world where gods and magic are plainly evident. No more than I'm a computerist or TVist. I suppose that just highlights the technical non relevance of the atheist title.

*Demonic creatures are 99% just really ugly ass monsters that more or less conform to humans ideas of what demons look like. Over time what was shoehorned into the definition of demon (when the first appeared) has beceome over generations known as such. The other 1% are the actual supernaturals who adopt the demonic title because it serves as well as any other name.

[lord Martiya]

Just a question: are Greek divinities brought into existance too? Because they may be quite dangerous: legends make Zeus a rapist and Ares a bloodthirsty madgod, after all. And while most Greek gods are relatively harmless when left alone or bribed and a few are downright nice, Christianity may have to deal with Nemesis rampaging for her temple at Rhamnous and other act of hybris committed by IV century Christians, and if we accept Medea as having become a lesser goddess the modern Corinth may find itself at the wrong end of her fury for paying Euripides and Thebes for chasing her out when she had just helped Herakles.

[Kojiro]

There aren't any any specific entities such at the Greek gods- at least those particular entities aren't real. The myths of earth are entirely false and the atheist position was correct. Up until our world clashed with thiers, the two realities were largely seperate but for brief collisions and the supernatural was so rare in our own world it was logical not to accept it as real. In other words 99.9999999% of myth, legend (and religion) are false and what we got right, if anything, is more sheer weight of lore than knowledge. The entities showing up may well resemble things like demons, or dragons or a host of other supernatural entities but they're not them- they're merely branded with it because that's what we do. Any resemblance to real religions is incidental though I don't doubt many entities would exploit it.

I'm really more curious what people think would happen when alternate supernatural claims show up which can be at least partially verified. It's one thing to believe in the power of prayer like some modern Christians do- it's another thing entirely when the godling will take an audience and spell out an exact price for which he always provides healing, no matter how grievous the injury or sickness. How does faith in a seemingly capricious (at best) god survive against that?

[Darth Hoth]

Now I have no doubt that new religions would spring up around powerful entities that call themselves gods or are percieved that way. I'm also certain that no matter what there will always be some people who will cling to tradition, no matter how much evidence is presented. But I'm curious as to how main stream populations would handle religion when magic and gods are plainly visable. Would everyone convert? Would conversion happen over generations, dooming current religions? Assume there is no evidence of any of these major religions other than interpretation (ie no angels appear claiming to serve God but entities that could be labeled demons appear). Assume there are the equivalent to clerics/paladins in the world though only for new religions- all the old religions stay with the same level of godly interaction (or lack there of). People claiming to see angels or the virgin Mary are competing directly with 'I went to see Wiiku and asked for a new arm- and here it is!'

I can't help but think that people would flock to the religion that demonstrably works/has living accessable gods.

How, more precisely, do you define "gods" in the context of your story? What can they do? I infer from your posts thus far that you are aiming for something more akin to classical paganism/polytheism than modern religion; hence, "gods" will by definition not be omnipotent, but what would be the limits otherwise? Would they perceive time in a linear fashion? Would they have physical forms vulnerable to harm? Are they of human-like intelligence and perception? Are they, as "gods" are in much modern fantasy fiction and in much classical paganism, dependent on worship for their supernatural power?

My initial thought is that the abilities of the "gods" will strongly affect how they are perceived by a modern-day audience. If their abilities are relatively unimpressive, or they fail to qualify as sufficiently "transcendent" over mortal flesh and thought, I can see many people (both agnostic/atheistic sceptics and the traditionally religious) not taking their divinity seriously; in their eyes, they are merely another form of life, more akin to space aliens than a true God (which should obviously be possessed of qualities closer to Jehovah, or the First Cause, or whatever, depending on religion). The reaction stemming from such a belief will depend in its details on the religious framework of the individual: conspiracy theorists will think they are actually aliens, perhaps posing as deities in an attempt to enslave us; Christian fundamentalists might think of them as true devils and demons; and so forth.

Whether they will actually gain any large following probably depends on how onerous the demands of their worship would be. While most observant Christians and Jews (and probably most adherents to Islam) will not bow down to other "gods" in any case, I can see atheists and agnostics making simple cost/benefit analyses on whether participation in the cult will be useful to them.

An additional, perhaps ironic, consequence of such an event will quite likely be that the more fundamentalist branches of Christianity and other monotheistic "true" religions will actually increase their membership, at least in the short term. While the arrival of magic and the new "gods" will vindicate their beliefs in the supernatural, the polytheistic divinities will still not(?) provide any answer to the "eternal questions" of creation, life after death, divinely sanctioned morals, and so forth that do much more to motivate "seekers of truth" and religiously minded people than does any actual physical benefit derived from faith. As well, various prophecies will now be considered fulfilled, and with much more credibility than has been the case with such matters in the past; millions of people will consider themselves to be living in the literal End Times.