SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread V

[Steve]

EDIT: Also, a question regarding warp gates. I understand a warp gate can transport even very large ships (I assume single ships) up to two sectors. However, the wiki mentions that having two or more allows for military fleet/larger ship mobilization at speeds higher than hyperspace transit. Seeing as I invested in 3 of the things, I figure it prudent to clarify what this means. Can a state with 2+ warp gates within 2 sectors of each other mass-deploy fleets between said gates, or am I misunderstanding?

I believe this to be true. Check with Steve though.

Theoretically, if you keep the Warp Gates going, you could do so over time if it's just within 2 sectors. However, remember Warp Gates would still have a capacity limit. You can't just send 100 ships all at once; you'll be sending them steadily, and expending a lot of energy doing it - also disrupting any scheduled shipping through the gate and inducing wear and tear on it. The idea thus is that you'd do this only as a last resort in an emergency.

[PeZook]

It's probably going to look a lot like a WWII mobilization, where civilian rail traffic is sidelined and military trains get highest priority.

[Ryan Thunder]

Wait I thought warp gates needed an in-gate and an out-gate but otherwise had unlimited range.

Does this mean I'd have to send my stuff through multiple gates to get to, say, Tianguo?

[PeZook]

I think long-range transfers were extremely energy intensive and limited in tonnage (hence, useful for small cargoes of valuable goods, diplomats etc.)

[Master_Baerne]

I'm all for Anglian colonies being scattered around the galaxy. If you want some near me, that'd be okay too - anything that helps keep the goddamn French in line is fine by me.

We're kind of in the same neighborhood, Baerne? You're the Dutch in this comparison, I think. If the Dutch owned half of Germany?

Prussia might take issue with that. Metaphors can be dangerous things...

[Kartr_Kana]

Wait I thought warp gates needed an in-gate and an out-gate but otherwise had unlimited range.

Does this mean I'd have to send my stuff through multiple gates to get to, say, Tianguo?

Currently the limitation of the technology is found in its mass/energy limits over distance. The more mass you attempt to transit through a Warp Gate, the more energy it requires. Over relatively short distances - 2 standard sectors - the energy demand of shifting even the largest warships is sustainable by modern technology. But beyond this "fleet transit distance", as it is called, the power demand goes up logarithmically, such to the point that to go from one side of the known galaxy to another - from, say, Chamarra in the Chamarran Hierarchy to Guangdong in Tianguo - requires every available joule from the best modern power source for a Gate to transit just one vessel of Light size and tonnage

Light Hulls are anything below $54. Questions?

[Siege]

Frankly the two sector "fleet transit distance" doesn't make all that much sense when you think about it: after all, how many warp gates are within two sector's distance of one another?

[Tanasinn]

I was under the impression that a warp gate could "throw" a small-sized shit ANY distance without an exit gate, it was just up to said ship to find its way back home. From my understanding, the two-sector factor only came into play when you were trying to "throw" large single ships, and having more than one warp gate within 2 sectors was what allowed fairly rapid redeployment of multiple warships (or commerce ships, as it might be) between those sectors with gates.

[Ezekiel]

Frankly the two sector "fleet transit distance" doesn't make all that much sense when you think about it: after all, how many warp gates are within two sector's distance of one another?

It seems fairly obvious that the "fleet transit distance" is meant to prevent people abusing the system to zap dreadnought taskgroups around to avoid having to actually sail to the place and risk interception, or something of a similar nature.

(edit)
Something of a similar nature being, for example, losing a battle because the dreadnoughts were posted four or five sectors away and the enemy got the drop on you somewhere less well-defended.

[Simon_Jester]

Frankly the two sector "fleet transit distance" doesn't make all that much sense when you think about it: after all, how many warp gates are within two sector's distance of one another?

Considering the size of the average nation, it's very practical to use a set of warp gates dotted around your nation to ease naval traffic during an emergency; that's arguably the main reason for buying more than one of the things in the first place. Most nations in the game can fit the bulk of their territory into a 3x3 box; warp gates on either side of that territory let you shift your fleets in a matter of hours instead of days in the event of a crisis.

Umeria, for example, would breathe much easier if we had warp gates at, say, New Athens (sector X6, my main forward military base in the event of war with Shepistan) and the Prussian frontier (sectors V8 and W8). That could shave as much as 24 to 36 hours off the time it would take to reinforce the fleet facing Shepistan from the fleet facing Prussia, or vice versa- potentially a big deal if a war opens with large-scale fleet battles or a 'bolt from the blue' surprise attack.

I was under the impression that a warp gate could "throw" a small-sized shit ANY distance without an exit gate, it was just up to said ship to find its way back home. From my understanding, the two-sector factor only came into play when you were trying to "throw" large single ships, and having more than one warp gate within 2 sectors was what allowed fairly rapid redeployment of multiple warships (or commerce ships, as it might be) between those sectors with gates.

All warp gate transits require an exit gate; no warp gate can send ships to any place except another warp gate.

[Dark Hellion]

I always envisioned the warp gate network as an analogue to railways. Each warpgate is very similar to a train station. For smaller military vessels and civilian ships it is kinda like a bullet train, super-fast travel along direct paths but maybe uneconomical outside government use or along well-established routes. The "fleet transit distance" is more like bulk shipping routes, capable of moving massive amounts over intrafactional distances but unable to move such large amounts truly internationally.

This compares to the hyperspace lanes which are more like traditional maritime shipping lanes, with currents, straits etc.

Basically, while most nations warpgates probably see near constant traffic it is probably well controlled and highly scheduled where as the docks for traditional hyperspace and heim drive ships are probably chaotic places with ships arriving willy-nilly with only a gross adherence to anything resembling a set time table.

The interesting thing is how warp gates allow for direct personal contact between diplomats far faster than a war fleet can move, meaning that it is highly possible for the kind of battles seen before the advent of modern telecommunications to occur, where there is a clash between armies that have already signed peace accords.

[Simon_Jester]

I always envisioned the warp gate network as an analogue to railways. Each warpgate is very similar to a train station. For smaller military vessels and civilian ships it is kinda like a bullet train, super-fast travel along direct paths but maybe uneconomical outside government use or along well-established routes. The "fleet transit distance" is more like bulk shipping routes, capable of moving massive amounts over intrafactional distances but unable to move such large amounts truly internationally.

One key difference is that a warp gate can potentially receive cargo from any other warp gate. This affects the amount of traffic it takes to make the system profitable, among other things.

Basically, while most nations warpgates probably see near constant traffic it is probably well controlled and highly scheduled where as the docks for traditional hyperspace and heim drive ships are probably chaotic places with ships arriving willy-nilly with only a gross adherence to anything resembling a set time table.

Very likely, especially since you don't need large pieces of expensive high-power machinery to send or receive warp gate traffic.

The interesting thing is how warp gates allow for direct personal contact between diplomats far faster than a war fleet can move, meaning that it is highly possible for the kind of battles seen before the advent of modern telecommunications to occur, where there is a clash between armies that have already signed peace accords.

It's possible but unlikely, because messages move much faster than ships through hyperspace. The timescale it takes for the fleets to get a 'stand down' order is measured in hours, not days, so you'd have to be very unlucky to get major battles fought during that time.

Also, remember that it's a common custom in modern warfare for two sides to agree to at least a temporary cease-fire, as a preliminary to signing the final agreement. That tends to prevent such battles from happening, which is exactly the point.

[Dark Hellion]

I guess highly possible was an overstatement but I stand by my fascination with the difference in time scales between the various types of political communication. A diplomat can make it to another faction in under an hour, while a communication over hypercomms can take many hours and sending a courier ship to a fleet operating under radio silence could take days. It makes for a lot of odd possibilities that while unlikely make for excellent RPing.

[Simon_Jester]

Absolutely, though a lot of the interesting failure modes require someone to do something stupid.

Which, of course, can make for GREAT storyline, as a number of incidents around the galaxy attest in this game.

[Mayabird]

Frankly the two sector "fleet transit distance" doesn't make all that much sense when you think about it: after all, how many warp gates are within two sector's distance of one another?

*raises hand with slight embarrassment*

Yeah, I was working off the assumption that the isolated bit of the Refuge was constantly in connection with the central Prime Refuge sector by the warp gate. There's probably quite a bit of regular hyperspace transit between them too (I mean, two sectors apart) due to the limitations of how much can go through at once, but it's still important strategically.

That being said, Geppetto and I are going to try to give Panic Node a hug, as he's rocking back and forth and weeping blood after finding out about the Lost's tech.

[fgalkin]

Awww, the poor thing. Shroom would try to give him a hug, too, but that would probably make him explode.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, I was working off the assumption that the isolated bit of the Refuge was constantly in connection with the central Prime Refuge sector by the warp gate. There's probably quite a bit of regular hyperspace transit between them too (I mean, two sectors apart) due to the limitations of how much can go through at once, but it's still important strategically.

Yes, and your assumption is correct.

[Tanasinn]

Hm, with that rules clarification, I might move my warp gates. Would that be a problem?

[Simon_Jester]

I don't see why not, if you accidentally placed them too far apart because of an innocent mistake.

[Siege]

Considering the size of the average nation, it's very practical to use a set of warp gates dotted around your nation to ease naval traffic during an emergency; that's arguably the main reason for buying more than one of the things in the first place. Most nations in the game can fit the bulk of their territory into a 3x3 box; warp gates on either side of that territory let you shift your fleets in a matter of hours instead of days in the event of a crisis.

Yes, but that's my point: it would make things easier to have two or more warp gates, it's why the Solarians have two, but how many other nations have actually done this kind of thing?

[fgalkin]

Considering the size of the average nation, it's very practical to use a set of warp gates dotted around your nation to ease naval traffic during an emergency; that's arguably the main reason for buying more than one of the things in the first place. Most nations in the game can fit the bulk of their territory into a 3x3 box; warp gates on either side of that territory let you shift your fleets in a matter of hours instead of days in the event of a crisis.

Yes, but that's my point: it would make things easier to have two or more warp gates, it's why the Solarians have two, but how many other nations have actually done this kind of thing?

Well, the MEH has four (and the Lost have 7 off-network gates that are used for Heimship movements by special permission from Steve (I paid for it by giving up the hyperspace junction). But then, more than half my fleet is not hyper-capable, so warp gates are the ONLY way to reinforce a system for me.)

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but that's my point: it would make things easier to have two or more warp gates, it's why the Solarians have two, but how many other nations have actually done this kind of thing?

If I'd anticipated my current strategic situation, I would have been sorely tempted to pay for at least a second, and possibly even a third.

[Tanasinn]

Simon:

Note that if you don't particularly want a terrorist trying to flee to your nation to escape pursuit, I can retcon it. I thought it made a decent choice considering the relative proximity of our nations, the fact that you've got a rough outland area, and that you're a human state that isn't also a police state like the Centrality. If you're not feeling it's no biggie for me to change.

[MKSheppard]

Been taking a break from this but here's my two cents about Steve's proposed rewrite of his nation to have more Hong Kong and Singapore like colonies at vital strategic points:

NO. HELL NO. You should have thought of that during the planning phase, not when the game has been running for x months and already gone through several storylines.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe for the sake of fairness, he could allow other players to do so as well within reasonable constraints? So Shepistanimerica can have Guam and Puerto Rico. Just call them... Guano and Puta Chica.

Perhaps the amount of off-system colonies optionable can be determined by the amount of extra dice roll NPCs? Or something?