cryptozoology

[viperpilot]

*don't know if this is the right forum so forgive me*

what about the so called "science" of this cyptozoology? are the practitioners wasting their time or legitimately seeking answers?

what about creatures like:

bigfoot

el chupacabra

UFOs (and i don't mean the "unidentified flying object" kind)

ghosts

loch ness monster

giant squid

living dinosaurs or plesiosaurs

etc., etc.

do they exist? could they exist? is it possible or are they just fables and myths. exaggerations or blatant fabrications that have been kept alive by ignorant followers?


my take? possibly some of them. there might be giant squid. bodies of squid that were larger than the common squid, have been caught and washed up on beaches. and large beaks have been found in the stomachs of sperm whales, and massive suction scars on their hides.

i think that anything is possible within the realm of science.

what do you think?

[Darth Wong]

Since we have not explored the great depths, it's always possible that there are some monsters down there. However, most of the others are just folklore.

It is irrational to believe in anything without sufficient evidence. A simple and effective rule which keeps bullshit away. Eager beavers usually distort this into "I refuse to believe it even in the face of overwhelming evidence", but that's an outright lie and everyone knows it. The "evidence" brought forward for most monster stories is invariably shit: grainy photos with indistinct shapes on them or similar nonsense.

Want to prove Bigfoot is real? Shoot him and bring me his carcass. Don't point at a blurry dark figure in the background of a black and white photo.

[Frank Hipper]

There most certainly IS a Giant squid. Specimens exist, it simply has not been observed alive in it's habitat.
The others, ehhh, not so much.
However, there *might* be an unknown primate in Indonesia, the anecdotal evidence given in an interview by an apparently acredited primate biologist was compelling, at least to my ignorant self.

[Exonerate]

I was briefly interested in this as a kid. Giant squids have been observed, but some of the other animals like Yeti, Loch Ness Monster are a bit more questionable...

It's doubtless that there are many species we have yet to discover, but I wouldn't get my hopes up on finding the Bigfoot.

[Master of Ossus]

Some cryptozoologists make significant work and discoveries. It is, frankly, laughable to believe that we have discovered every form of animal or plant living on the Earth today. However, the likelihood that we have missed anything living on land of substantial size (ie. Bigfoot) is so small as to fall into the realm of the impossible. When they look for things that do exist, like the Giant Squid, then they are okay. When they look for things like octopi several dozen meters in diameter, that's pushing it, but there is SOME evidence there. When they look for things based on strange testimony from people who sort of think they saw something, then it becomes a pseudoscience, and that's where I start having major problems with it.

Basically, true cryptozoologists should be treated as normal biologists, but when fortune-seekers and the obsessed/insane begin masquerading their intentions behind cryptozoology and claiming to be scientists, then I have no respect for them.

[viperpilot]

Since we have not explored the great depths, it's always possible that there are some monsters down there. However, most of the others are just folklore.

It is irrational to believe in anything without sufficient evidence. A simple and effective rule which keeps bullshit away. Eager beavers usually distort this into "I refuse to believe it even in the face of overwhelming evidence", but that's an outright lie and everyone knows it. The "evidence" brought forward for most monster stories is invariably shit: grainy photos with indistinct shapes on them or similar nonsense.

Want to prove Bigfoot is real? Shoot him and bring me his carcass. Don't point at a blurry dark figure in the background of a black and white photo.

the famous bigfoot film was admittedly created by some guy (miss his name at the moment). the forger said so on his deathbed or in his will or something like that. he also admitted to tramping around the woods with plaster feet.

i'm with you. if i can't touch it or see the actual object with my own two eyes i tend to not believe it. that doesn't mean i'm not open to the possibility. but i still maintain (for now) that you can't ever really know anything that you yourself haven't personally experienced.

there maybe evidence that i was born on a certain day in 1976. birth certificates, eye witnesses, my parents. but how do i really know. i sure as heck don't remeber it. however i believe it because the evidence for it is overwhelming and i have none to counter it. but can i ever really know?

[Master of Ossus]

there maybe evidence that i was born on a certain day in 1976. birth certificates, eye witnesses, my parents. but how do i really know. i sure as heck don't remeber it. however i believe it because the evidence for it is overwhelming and i have none to counter it. but can i ever really know?

This argument is frequently used by fundies once they have been crushed in debate, and must retreat to their "fall-back" positions. The fact is that there is overwhelming evidence that you were born on the date that your birth-certificate states, and there is no evidence to suggest that you were not. While you cannot KNOW with 100% certainty, there is also no reason to doubt the information given to you, and a significant effort would have had to have been made for the information on this event to be falsified. Additionally, your birth date is corroberated by circumstantial evidence, and is consistent with everything else that you have done.

[Ravencrow]

Deep sea creatures - it's possible there might be really big ones down there. I seem to recall hearing that there's no limit to the size a squid can get.. but there are always dangers in those depths even for them.

As for land based monsters, one has to be very skeptical that they are still wandering around today. Humans probably been to just about everywhere, so it's gonna get quite hard for creatures like Bigfoot or the Yeti to remain a mystery if they still/do exist. Quite possibly if they ever did exist, they may have been remanents of a prehistoric race and would have been killed off by the 'modern man'.

[Majin Gojira]

The Remorter the location the species exists in, the lest fantastic the identity...the more likely that it might exist...the closer to civilization, the more extrodinairy the identity, the less likely it is to exist.

[Master of Ossus]

Deep sea creatures - it's possible there might be really big ones down there. I seem to recall hearing that there's no limit to the size a squid can get.. but there are always dangers in those depths even for them.

There are ALWAYS biological restrictions to how large an animal can become. On land, the problem is typically gravity and the difficulties with supporting organs large enough for the animal, which become exponentially larger as the size increases.

In the ocean, though most of the mass is supported more easily by water, there are still limitations. There can, practically, only be so much nutrients and gases around the organism, and so the organism cannot realistically grow too large. Moreover, there are distribution problems with moving such necessities around the organism as the thing gets larger. Even in cold-blooded organisms with slow metabolisms, the cells need some way to transfer energy where it needs to be, and as size increases a multitude of other problems begin to take shape. Additionally, after a point an organism grows so large as to extinguish all potential food from the waters around it. This is largely why the big dinos died out, while smaller organisms survived. You also get the problem that such huge amounts of resources have to go into the creation of a single such organism, that a large population of them cannot exist and so the species has small genetic diversity, and the death of a single organism becomes a potentially large survival problem for the entire species.

While most organisms today are much smaller than the theoretical limits on multi-cellular organism size and so do not usually come into our conscious thoughts, the limits still exist.

[neoolong]

Legitimately, there probably are species we haven't seen. The rain forest for example. It's not like we've travelled and explored every inch of the world. But to conclusively say that something exists without definitive proof is just stupid, and we're talking fundie dumb.

Of course, one needs to realize that every science has its quacks.

[UltraViolence83]

I remember watching a show about the Yeti and they interviewed this woman farmer from Nepal. She said she was attacked by a wierd creature that left a nasty scar on her body.

[Ravencrow]

There are ALWAYS biological restrictions to how large an animal can become. ...

...
...
While most organisms today are much smaller than the theoretical limits on multi-cellular organism size and so do not usually come into our conscious thoughts, the limits still exist.

hm.. yeah, that's true.

[Trytostaydead]

Since we have not explored the great depths, it's always possible that there are some monsters down there. However, most of the others are just folklore.

It is irrational to believe in anything without sufficient evidence. A simple and effective rule which keeps bullshit away. Eager beavers usually distort this into "I refuse to believe it even in the face of overwhelming evidence", but that's an outright lie and everyone knows it. The "evidence" brought forward for most monster stories is invariably shit: grainy photos with indistinct shapes on them or similar nonsense.

Want to prove Bigfoot is real? Shoot him and bring me his carcass. Don't point at a blurry dark figure in the background of a black and white photo.

LOL. That reminded me SOO much of Robert A. Heinlein's "A Stranger in a Strange Land."

Whatsherface is a Witness?
Hell, she wouldn't even believe the sun came out if the sky was cloudy
How could I? Someone could just be shining a big light through the clouds.

[Admiral Valdemar]

There are apparently giant squid, some have been seen that are easily the size of Sperm whales and maybe larger.

When you get really deep down in the ocean you see many organisms that would boggle the mind, everything from swimming mouths with glowy bits like the Angel fish to bacteria around blacksmokers that can take insane heat levels and are chemotrophic or autotrophic.

Pity if you brought most up they'd explode from the pressure differential.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Deep sea creatures - it's possible there might be really big ones down there. I seem to recall hearing that there's no limit to the size a squid can get.. but there are always dangers in those depths even for them.

There are ALWAYS biological restrictions to how large an animal can become. On land, the problem is typically gravity and the difficulties with supporting organs large enough for the animal, which become exponentially larger as the size increases.

In the ocean, though most of the mass is supported more easily by water, there are still limitations. There can, practically, only be so much nutrients and gases around the organism, and so the organism cannot realistically grow too large. Moreover, there are distribution problems with moving such necessities around the organism as the thing gets larger. Even in cold-blooded organisms with slow metabolisms, the cells need some way to transfer energy where it needs to be, and as size increases a multitude of other problems begin to take shape. Additionally, after a point an organism grows so large as to extinguish all potential food from the waters around it. This is largely why the big dinos died out, while smaller organisms survived. You also get the problem that such huge amounts of resources have to go into the creation of a single such organism, that a large population of them cannot exist and so the species has small genetic diversity, and the death of a single organism becomes a potentially large survival problem for the entire species.

While most organisms today are much smaller than the theoretical limits on multi-cellular organism size and so do not usually come into our conscious thoughts, the limits still exist.

Exactly, it's the same reason that we don't have huge 32,000 ton tanks like Bolos, we instead have loads of little ones because it is less of a risk if one is lost and cheaper in resources and more effective. There are also of course the physical limits too, Godzilla could never exist because even if the organ system worked, the animal would crush ordinary bones into dust through it's own mass first, like beached whales. The most useful organisms on the planet are unicellular prokaryotes or eukaryotes, not giant squid or brontosaurs.

[Tsyroc]

Giant Squid http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2144379.stm washed up in weemandando country last year. Not as big as some people have mentioned but still pretty damned big to me.

This link http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/species.html doesn't provide much in the way of dates but the first animal pictured IIRC is the most recent large land animal to be "newly" identified by the scientific community. It kind of reminds me of the Okapi which was rumored to exist for a long time before it was found. Unfortunately these real animals also help fuel the fire for people to keep looking for things that may be bit more mythological, like the saurpods that are still supposed to exist in the Congo.

[Admiral Valdemar]

BOW BEFORE CTHULU!

[Mr Bean]

There are apparently giant squid, some have been seen that are easily the size of Sperm whales and maybe larger.

Yes Twenty to Fifty Foot Speciemse have been found before, Inculding one that washed up in Britian, 37 Feet Long from Tenticule tip to head in the 1800s and pictures and carvings where made of it

Naturaly lacking perseving agents they body was lost quite easily but they have been found pretty damn big before

[Montcalm]

There are apparently giant squid, some have been seen that are easily the size of Sperm whales and maybe larger.

Yes Twenty to Fifty Foot Speciemse have been found before, Inculding one that washed up in Britian, 37 Feet Long from Tenticule tip to head in the 1800s and pictures and carvings where made of it

Naturaly lacking perseving agents they body was lost quite easily but they have been found pretty damn big before

I heard there was one found on a beach in Newfoundland in the 1930s but the fishermans who found it fed it to their dogs.

[Ted C]

bigfoot

No credible evidence. Several of the major pieces of evidence have been revealed to be hoaxes.

el chupacabra

No credible evidence.

UFOs (and i don't mean the "unidentified flying object" kind)

I don't know what "other kind" you mean.

ghosts

No credible evidence.

loch ness monster

No credible evidence. Several of the major pieces of evidence have been revealed to be hoaxes.

giant squid

Some giant squid bodies have been found. Sucker marks on the bodies of sperm whales also provide credible evidence for the existence of giant squid at great depths.

living dinosaurs or plesiosaurs

No credible evidence.

do they exist? could they exist? is it possible or are they just fables and myths. exaggerations or blatant fabrications that have been kept alive by ignorant followers?

my take? possibly some of them. there might be giant squid. bodies of squid that were larger than the common squid, have been caught and washed up on beaches. and large beaks have been found in the stomachs of sperm whales, and massive suction scars on their hides.

i think that anything is possible within the realm of science.

what do you think?

Some things are NOT possible within the realm of science. For instance, it is not possible to get more energy out of a process than you put into it. Some of these "myths" are far more plausible than others.

[viperpilot]

This argument is frequently used by fundies once they have been crushed in debate, and must retreat to their "fall-back" positions. The fact is that there is overwhelming evidence that you were born on the date that your birth-certificate states, and there is no evidence to suggest that you were not. While you cannot KNOW with 100% certainty, there is also no reason to doubt the information given to you, and a significant effort would have had to have been made for the information on this event to be falsified. Additionally, your birth date is corroberated by circumstantial evidence, and is consistent with everything else that you have done.

agreed. like i said, "i believe that i was born at a certain time and date because the evidence is so overwhelming and i have none to counter it. but i still don't know 100%. but of course just not being 100% doesn't mean i can't think i know. and if if i'm proved wrong then i'll rethink it. don't get me worng, i wasn't trying to back pedal or anything.

UFOs (and i don't mean the "unidentified flying object" kind)

I don't know what "other kind" you mean.

i mean actual non-earthly things. a kite flying really high might be a UFO to some down on the ground. but it's those things that happen up close to people that are given thought too.

Some things are NOT possible within the realm of science. For instance, it is not possible to get more energy out of a process than you put into it. Some of these "myths" are far more plausible than others.

right. i didn't say that just anything was possible. i was trying to say that anything science will allow is possible. meaning, unless it's blatently physical and sceinctificly impossible then it may be possible.

sorry. i don't make myself clear sometimes.

[Darth Gojira]

I remember watching a show about the Yeti and they interviewed this woman farmer from Nepal. She said she was attacked by a wierd creature that left a nasty scar on her body.

Did she actually show the scar? If so, was the scar from a wolf/bear or unidentified?

[Darth Gojira]

I remember watching a show about the Yeti and they interviewed this woman farmer from Nepal. She said she was attacked by a wierd creature that left a nasty scar on her body.

Did she actually show the scar? If so, was the scar from a wolf/bear or unidentified?

[Peregrin Toker]

On the beast which is known as el Chupacabra:

"The majority of Mexicans who have entered the USA illegally polled by border surveys express that their main reason for wanting to enter America is to live in a land that is CHUPACABRA free."

Several people have also claimed to actually have been attacked by Chupacabras, and some of them, including politicians and such, are quite credible.

These monstrosities allegedly kill 500 Mexicans each year.

(Source: http://www.retrocrush.com/monsters/38.html)