Egyptians protesting across the country

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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:Teabaggers are fucking losing their minds in the comments section of every newspaper I've read. This is Obama's fault, he should have supported Mubarak, this will be Iran all over again, Bush/Cheney were right with the democracy dominoes, etc. Seriously, what the fuck was Obama (or any other Western leader) supposed to do? Support a dictator rather than a democracy movement? Hypocritical much?
Frankly, the Tea Baggers and Right Wingers can go fuck themselves.

Good for the Egyptians.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:Teabaggers are fucking losing their minds in the comments section of every newspaper I've read. This is Obama's fault, he should have supported Mubarak, this will be Iran all over again, Bush/Cheney were right with the democracy dominoes, etc. Seriously, what the fuck was Obama (or any other Western leader) supposed to do? Support a dictator rather than a democracy movement? Hypocritical much?
Apparently he should have carpetbombed the Egyptians. Because that would probably be the only thing that would stop them right now - not that it would do the USA any good.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Congratulations, Egypt! Man, this is some serious Spring of Nations shit going down.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

and to think it's only 90 years later than it should have been, when the offer of free elections was made following WWI.....
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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In regards to an 'Islamofascist' takeover, I saw this on SB...
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Mubarak's thankfully gone, but the infrastructure of his autocratic regime is essentially still in place, as badly dislocated by the sudden uprising as it's been (the Egyptian military allegedly has a lot of corporate influence and owns property, etc) and it seems naive Egypt will become a Western style democracy overnight, but whoever replaces Mubarak will hopefully lack Mubarak's deluded arrogance and will work to economically placate the Egyptians instead of lazily oppressing them, treading around them more carefully and pave the way for further reforms in later generations.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by K. A. Pital »

Siege wrote:Remarkable. 18 days and a dictator of 30 years is gone. One wonders what effect this'll have on the region... I imagine there'll be people in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan etc. scratching their heads right about now.
They already are, but there's some sort of a media silence about Jordan and drops of reports from here and there that the unions there start mobilizing hundreds of thousands of unemployed, etc. Not sure if anything will come out of it, but I bet people everywhere from Albania to Jordan are going to at least try and do something.

The decidedly anti-corruption, anti-authoritarian slant of this revolution is something a lot of oppositionary political forces can unite behind.

As delighting as it was to see Egypt's elite shitting bricks, it would be a greater victory if this spreads around. And man, I thought at a moment Mubarak was going to let it slide and just wait until protests die down (there had been a day when the intensity fell, and the Russian TV was relishing in every moment of it: "Calm restored, etc. etc.").
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Guardsman Bass »

It's a political earthquake, that's for sure - and even more so if they dodge a military government in the next couple of months. Egypt is far and away the most populous Arab country.
Stas Bush wrote:As delighting as it was to see Egypt's elite shitting bricks, it would be a greater victory if this spreads around.
For sure. I could see something happening in Jordan, if they can mobilize right. Not so much Syria (which is a total police state even more tightly controlled than Egypt) or Saudi Arabia (where most of the religious establishment has been co-opted, and the regime has a ton of money to pay off people).
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Raj Ahten wrote:The Guardian is reporting that the Egyptian Army is Torturing Protesters.
I wonder if this has anything at all to do with the sudden conclusion, I mean IF it wasn't the army, but Mubarak's men in diguise (as some have suggested).
If I was a general and I had promised to be neutral and protect while I was deciding which way to jump, and then I found that one side was dressing up as my guys and torturing the other side, I would be a mite bit peeved.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Raj Ahten »

Korto wrote:
Raj Ahten wrote:The Guardian is reporting that the Egyptian Army is Torturing Protesters.
I wonder if this has anything at all to do with the sudden conclusion, I mean IF it wasn't the army, but Mubarak's men in diguise (as some have suggested).

It will probably be years, if ever, that we in the general public know the answer to that question.

Anyway I'm very pleased with the news out of Egypt. With everything else in the world turning to shit, or so it seems, what has happened in Egypt has reignited my optimism and believe in what common people can accomplish.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:Teabaggers are fucking losing their minds in the comments section of every newspaper I've read. This is Obama's fault, he should have supported Mubarak, this will be Iran all over again, Bush/Cheney were right with the democracy dominoes, etc. Seriously, what the fuck was Obama (or any other Western leader) supposed to do? Support a dictator rather than a democracy movement? Hypocritical much?
The reaction on FoxGOP State Television to today's events featured Newt Gingrich decrying Obama presiding over a "Carteresque" disaster while commentator Michael Scheuer accuses Americans of having "an increasingly Marxist" faith in the power of democracy.

Professional rightwingers shitting themselves over the dread spectre of democracy...
Michael Scheuer wrote:Oh, I think the Speaker was right, and what’s very interesting about the Egypt situation is both parties, the President, and the American people are cheering on a disaster for America. There’s no chance for a secular democracy in Egypt. That congressman that was on previously is really not a very intelligent fellow. What follows Mubarak if he goes, and if Suleiman goes, will be a government much less friendly to the United States, and much influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood. So it’s just a very funny situation, Mike, Americans seem to be increasingly Marxist in their absolute faith in democracy for people who have never had any experience with the process, so I think you know Panetta made a little mistake yesterday, but generally speaking, the whole tenor of both parties is causing the destruction of American interests in Egypt.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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'Marxist faith in democracy' is, um, a new one. Um.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Stas Bush wrote: As delighting as it was to see Egypt's elite shitting bricks, it would be a greater victory if this spreads around. And man, I thought at a moment Mubarak was going to let it slide and just wait until protests die down (there had been a day when the intensity fell, and the Russian TV was relishing in every moment of it: "Calm restored, etc. etc.").
I hear that there were large protests in Belgrade this week about the economy and there are similar plans in Israel (yes, I know those Israel and Serbia are democracies).

For Syria, I may be wrong but I don't think the economic discontent there has reached Egypt-Tunisia level (though I haven't checked on that in a very long time), so Assad probably has a bit of breathing space.

The ayatollahs in Iran are braying about how this is a triumph for Islamic fundamentalism. They are tempting fate.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by K. A. Pital »

erik_t wrote:'Marxist faith in democracy' is, um, a new one. Um.
He is referring to the Marxist concept that the will of the people (as, the majority which are "the exploited", the lower class) is the ultimate power. Remember, both Marx and Engels assumed the capitalist state would not institute universal suffrage, instead relying on property and land requirements, and that if there'd be universal suffrage, that is a desired state of things (as to what and whom this suffrage was meant to elect, that's another question). Also, many Marxist movements in the First and Third World are specifically centered on achieving democracy first (if they perceive the rule as an oligarchy or a dictatorship).

Besides, how is Michael Scheuer a typical right-winger? That may have been a pathetically dumb statement (one of the myriad of such statements typical for the American intellectual "elite"), and Sheuer is an alarmist in my view, one that tries to reinterpret the current wars in the world as a cultural conflict (USA vs. Islamism) as opposed to being a complex conflict driven by class issues just as much as nationalism and religion. However, he's far away from the typical American right wing positions, which are "Support Israel", "Glory to victory in Iraq" and "Iran is a threat!"
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Stas Bush wrote:
erik_t wrote:'Marxist faith in democracy' is, um, a new one. Um.
He is referring to the Marxist concept that the will of the people (as, the majority which are "the exploited", the lower class) is the ultimate power. Remember, both Marx and Engels assumed the capitalist state would not institute universal suffrage, instead relying on property and land requirements, and that if there'd be universal suffrage, that is a desired state of things (as to what and whom this suffrage was meant to elect, that's another question). Also, many Marxist movements in the First and Third World are specifically centered on achieving democracy first (if they perceive the rule as an oligarchy or a dictatorship).

Besides, how is Michael Scheuer a typical right-winger? That may have been a pathetically dumb statement (one of the myriad of such statements typical for the American intellectual "elite"), and Sheuer is an alarmist in my view, one that tries to reinterpret the current wars in the world as a cultural conflict (USA vs. Islamism) as opposed to being a complex conflict driven by class issues just as much as nationalism and religion. However, he's far away from the typical American right wing positions, which are "Support Israel", "Glory to victory in Iraq" and "Iran is a threat!"
You have to remember that the American right have for decades attempted to foster undying paranoia of anything even remotely associated with Marx. It doesn't matter whether his ideas may have any validity or not; the Marx of the American right is a caricature. Marx is the Bogeyman. Americans must be reminded to be afraid of Marx and all his Devilish Works. American kids, for example, are never taught that Marx hailed Abraham Lincoln as a champion of human freedom. His "religion is the opiate of the masses" remark is forever quoted out of context and very few Americans have even a passing familiarity with the Labour Theory of Value —except that it's one of those Bad Marxist Things. Marx is wrong, Marx is Evil, and Americans must not be allowed to think anything else. I doubt Scheuer had spared any thought towards Marxist theories of democratic development. Besides, it seems the Right have had a longstanding distrust of democracy. So while it may not be part of the current dominating narrative of the right, it is not at all surprising that one of their spokesdrones would make a pass at tying Marx and democracy together into one neatly threatening package to frighten their core ovine audience with. Purely reactionary.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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The whole 'Waaaaah, Islamonazi Egyptian Neo-Caliphate!' is getting annoying, Egypt is not Iran, and up to 10% of Egyptians are Coptic Chritians (a significant minority group) and the Egyptian armed forces (who seem to have the most raw power) are secular, with a long standing non-aggression pact with Israel.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Stas Bush wrote:
erik_t wrote:'Marxist faith in democracy' is, um, a new one. Um.
He is referring to the Marxist concept that the will of the people (as, the majority which are "the exploited", the lower class) is the ultimate power. Remember, both Marx and Engels assumed the capitalist state would not institute universal suffrage, instead relying on property and land requirements, and that if there'd be universal suffrage, that is a desired state of things (as to what and whom this suffrage was meant to elect, that's another question). Also, many Marxist movements in the First and Third World are specifically centered on achieving democracy first (if they perceive the rule as an oligarchy or a dictatorship).

Besides, how is Michael Scheuer a typical right-winger? That may have been a pathetically dumb statement (one of the myriad of such statements typical for the American intellectual "elite"), and Sheuer is an alarmist in my view, one that tries to reinterpret the current wars in the world as a cultural conflict (USA vs. Islamism) as opposed to being a complex conflict driven by class issues just as much as nationalism and religion. However, he's far away from the typical American right wing positions, which are "Support Israel", "Glory to victory in Iraq" and "Iran is a threat!"
I'm aware of Marx's ideas. What I mean is that these are the same mouthpeaces that were absolutely certain that Iraq would collapse into democracy if we gave it the slightest push. This was obviously implied to be a good thing at the time.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Patrick Degan »

erik_t wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
erik_t wrote:'Marxist faith in democracy' is, um, a new one. Um.
He is referring to the Marxist concept that the will of the people (as, the majority which are "the exploited", the lower class) is the ultimate power. Remember, both Marx and Engels assumed the capitalist state would not institute universal suffrage, instead relying on property and land requirements, and that if there'd be universal suffrage, that is a desired state of things (as to what and whom this suffrage was meant to elect, that's another question). Also, many Marxist movements in the First and Third World are specifically centered on achieving democracy first (if they perceive the rule as an oligarchy or a dictatorship).

Besides, how is Michael Scheuer a typical right-winger? That may have been a pathetically dumb statement (one of the myriad of such statements typical for the American intellectual "elite"), and Sheuer is an alarmist in my view, one that tries to reinterpret the current wars in the world as a cultural conflict (USA vs. Islamism) as opposed to being a complex conflict driven by class issues just as much as nationalism and religion. However, he's far away from the typical American right wing positions, which are "Support Israel", "Glory to victory in Iraq" and "Iran is a threat!"
I'm aware of Marx's ideas. What I mean is that these are the same mouthpeaces that were absolutely certain that Iraq would collapse into democracy if we gave it the slightest push. This was obviously implied to be a good thing at the time.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Hmmm... this is good. Reminds me of how Marcos, another long-reigning American-backed bastard, got deposed here in the Philippines in a largely non-violent uprising. Thankfully, Egypt wasn't that violent, I hope, and the military showed great class in holding back (right?).

Let's make a list of American-backed bastards who've gotten deposed and put bets on who's next. :D
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hmmm... this is good. Reminds me of how Marcos, another long-reigning American-backed bastard, got deposed here in the Philippines in a largely non-violent uprising. Thankfully, Egypt wasn't that violent, I hope, and the military showed great class in holding back (right?).

Let's make a list of American-backed bastards who've gotten deposed and put bets on who's next. :D
How much did Marcos steal from the nation? I heard Mubarak brought out 40 million dollars of embezzled funds (that's not counting the planes, personal villas and palaces of his family and clan).
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Pu-239 wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:
Thanas wrote:Well, the real challenge will be to get Mubarak's people out. Now it depends on whether his cronies can find a replacement for him with enough pull (doubtful) and whether the protestors have a plan beyond "get rid of the huge target".
If they don't, we could see a rapid slide in Egypt. The proper functioning of a government depends on many skilled people, some of whom are probably highly corrupt and will probably get the boot, replacing them will be problematic. If they don't get the boot, replacing Mubarak will rapidly become symbolic and will not give Egypt any improvement in their living conditions.
The military has also sacked the cabinet, although Suleiman is still there.
There's a lot more to removing Hosni Mubarak than just sending him off to retirement at his Red Sea villa and sacking his cabinet. For one thing, Egypt has a huge state security apparatus whose job is to ruthlessly oppress enemies of the order imposed by Mubarak. If you put a new government in place, without having first removed the state security people (with fire, if necessary,) Mubarak's cronies will use them to . . . pressure . . . the voters to put back a government of old Mubarak cronies. For another thing, Mubarak supporters make up most of the government; and the pro-democracy forces don't seem to have an organized plan beyond "retire Mubarak." So, when it comes time to reform Egypt's bureaucracy, it will be discovered that most everyone who knows how things work is a Mubarak supporter. Sorting out the true-blue supporters of the old regime from the ones who were principally loyal to the paychecks the old regime was cutting, will be a difficult task.

And the pro-democracy forces will have to do this while carrying out a delicate balancing act between everyone who wants something from Egypt. You will have Islamists pushing for a more Islamic Egypt, other Middle Eastern powers pushing for Egypt to be more anti-Israel, meddling from Western powers who will want Egypt's democracy to be as transparent and as secular as possible, American interests who only like new democracies when the results are convenient for America: FUCK YEAH, the angry and unemployed who will now be demanding that the new government Do Something about Egypt's economic woes, and conservative interests who liked things just as they were . . . who'd be pushing the new government to not rock the boat with one hand while plotting to topple it with the other.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Stas Bush wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hmmm... this is good. Reminds me of how Marcos, another long-reigning American-backed bastard, got deposed here in the Philippines in a largely non-violent uprising. Thankfully, Egypt wasn't that violent, I hope, and the military showed great class in holding back (right?).

Let's make a list of American-backed bastards who've gotten deposed and put bets on who's next. :D
How much did Marcos steal from the nation? I heard Mubarak brought out 40 million dollars of embezzled funds (that's not counting the planes, personal villas and palaces of his family and clan).

40 million USDs is fucking peanuts.

Marcos was smuggling gold bars in his luggage. :P
The Philippine government today is still paying interest in public debts incurred during Marcos' administration. It was reported that, when Marcos fled, U.S. Customs agents discovered 24 suitcases of gold bricks and diamond jewelry hidden in diaper bags and in addition, certificates for gold bullion valued in the billions of dollars were allegedly among the personal properties he, his family, his cronies and business partners surreptitiously took with them when the Reagan administration provided them safe passage to Hawaii. When the presidential mansion was seized, it was discovered that Imelda Marcos had over 2700 pairs of shoes in her closet
Another allegation was that his family and cronies looted so much wealth from the country that to this day investigators have difficulty determining precisely how many billions of dollars have been salted away. The Swiss government has also returned 684 million USD in allegedly ill-gotten Marcos wealth.
Marcos' wiki.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

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Hmmmm, it would seem that Mubarak has also tried to move as much ill gotten swag out of his country:
Egypt: Hosni Mubarak used last 18 days in power to secure his fortune
Hosni Mubarak used the 18 days it took for protesters to topple him to shift his vast wealth into untraceable accounts overseas, Western intelligence sources have said.

The former Egyptian president is accused of amassing a fortune of more than £3 billion - although some suggest it could be as much as £40 billion - during his 30 years in power. It is claimed his wealth was tied up in foreign banks, investments, bullion and properties in London, New York, Paris and Beverly Hills.

In the knowledge his downfall was imminent, Mr Mubarak is understood to have attempted to place his assets out of reach of potential investigators.

On Friday night Swiss authorities announced they were freezing any assets Mubarak and his family may hold in the country's banks while pressure was growing for the UK to do the same. Mr Mubarak has strong connections to London and it is thought many millions of pounds are stashed in the UK.

But a senior Western intelligence source claimed that Mubarak had begun moving his fortune in recent weeks.

"We're aware of some urgent conversations within the Mubarak family about how to save these assets," said the source, "And we think their financial advisers have moved some of the money around. If he had real money in Zurich, it may be gone by now."

The revelation came as the ruling military council, which took power as Mr Mubarak stepped down on Friday, confirmed its pledge eventually to hand power to an elected civilian government, although it did not set a date.

It also reassured allies that Egypt will abide by its peace treaty with Israel, as it outlined the first cautious steps in a promised transition to elections and "to build a democratic free nation".

The military council's spokesman, Gen Mohsen el-Fangari, appeared in front of a row of Egyptian military and national flags as he read a statement, proclaiming respect for the rule of law - a sign that the current system of emergency law may be ended.

But demands were growing among protesters in Cairo last night for Mr Mubarak to be put on trial for corruption.

The former president was at his family villa in the resort town of Sharm El-Sheikh. There were unconfirmed reports that he was effectively under house arrest, as the focus of protesters moved from toppling the hated ruler to seizing his fortune, although the army's ruling council which is in charge of the country pending its transition to democracy said Mr Mubarak was beingn treated with due respect.

During the protests last week, former deputy foreign minister Ibrahim Yousri and 20 lawyers petitioned Abdel Meguid Mahmoud, Egypt's prosecutor general, to put Mr Mubarak and his family on trial for stealing state wealth.

Crowds in Tahrir Square were yesterday hotly debating what to do with the disgraced former president, as protesters assembled themselves into clean-up squads to remove rubbish and cranes took away wrecked vehicles.

Manar Louay, 16, a student, said: "I don't think they should put him on trial - he did keep our country out of wars. But they should take his money, it is not his."

Mohamed El Beblawy, 60, a driver, said: "Not only should Mubarak be prosecuted, all the other thieves should be as well."

Fatma Samy Ahmed, 50, who was part of the clean-up operation, said: "He should be executed like Saddam Hussein. Half of the population lived in poverty, while Mubarak and those around him lived in heaven."

The intelligence source suggested that 82-year-old Mubarak may have learnt the lesson of his fellow dictator Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, the former president of Tunisia, who was forced with his family into a hasty exile in Saudi Arabia while Swiss authorities froze the family's bank accounts.

A US official told The Sunday Telegraph: "There's no doubt that there will have been some frantic financial activity behind the scenes. They can lose the homes and some of the bank accounts, but they will have wanted to get the gold bars and other investments to safe quarters."

The Mubaraks are understood to have wanted to shift assets to Gulf states where they have considerable investments already – and, crucially, friendly relations. The United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia have frequently been mentioned as likely final destinations for Mr Mubarak and possibly his family.

The UK Treasury said it would have the power to seize Mubarak's British assets if Egypt made a formal request - and no order had yet been made.

But Lord Malloch-Brown, a former Labour foreign minister and former Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations, told The Sunday Telegraph: "When people are forced out of office, if they have money way beyond what they should have earned, then a country like Britain should freeze those assets pending a court action by the new government.

"Given his and his family's strong links to the UK, it is reasonable to assume at least some of his assets are here."

Reports emanating from Egypt claim that Mubarak had accounts with the Swiss bank UBS as well as with HBOS, now part of Lloyds Banking Group, which is 41 per cent owned by the British Government. But it is understood that Lloyds bank officials have so far found no evidence Mubarak had secret accounts with them.

Quite how much Mubarak has stashed away - and where he has hidden that fortune - in the past 30 years is open to speculation. His 69-year-old wife Suzanne Mubarak - known in some circles as the Marie Antoinette of Egypt - is half-Welsh while it is claimed the couple's two sons Gamal and Alaa may even have British passports.

Intelligence sources indicate that the Mubarak fortune may be most easily traced via the business dealings of Gamal Mubarak, 47.

He once lived in a six-storey house in Belgravia in central London and worked in banking before setting up an investment and consulting firm in London. He resigned as a director of the company 10 years ago.

The president made his two sons the "go to" men for any companies that sought to do business in Egypt.

Kefaya, an opposition coalition that emerged before the 2005 elections to oppose the then president and his plans to transfer power to Gamal, released a lengthy investigation into nepotism, corruption and abuse of power by the ex-president and his two sons.

It said it was routine for businesses to be required to hand a cut – between 20 to 50 per cent - to Gamal or Alaa simply to set up shop. Favoured entrepreneurs who worked with the brothers were given virtual monopolies in return.

Arwa Hassan, a Middle East specialist for the anti-corruption group Transparency International, said Gamal appeared to be at the centre of the Mubarak family's finances. Miss Hassan said: "It was really common for Gamal Mubarak to approach a successful business and say, make me a partner in your business. I've heard this from various sources. I don't think it was a secret."

Dealing with the former president will present a major challenge to Egypt's first real democratic government, which is expected to be formed after elections.

On Saturday night the army was in charge, hugely supported by the people after promising to hand over power as soon as possible. The army was quick to promise to honour all existing treaties including the crucial Camp David Accord with Israel.

Most Egyptians spent yesterday celebrating their new freedom.

Hundreds of thousands filed through Tahrir Square, smiling soldiers let children climb onto, and even into, their tanks, and a sea of Egyptian flags waved over the heads of the crowd.

Some protesters promised to resume protests if the army does not show clear signs of allowing a transition to civilian rule. The people of Cairo were waking up to a very different world. After weeks of paralysis the economy is in chaos; expectations for the future have been raised dangerously high; and the revolution was so rapid that there is no leadership to offer a vision of a secure political future.

But the mood on Cairo's streets was euphorically positive. Dina Sadek, 21, a student protester, said: "A month ago people were too scared to criticise him in public. Now we have won our freedom and we are proud to be Egyptian."

Hundreds of pro-democracy supporters were arrested in Algeria, as hopes of freedom swept the Arab world.
The Telegraph

And at 82, the greedy, smug bastard certainly can't take all of it with him. :P
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Edward Yee
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Edward Yee »

I understand that for that "supreme military council," it's headed by the former defense minister Tantawi, who apparently neither the USG (or at least the then-ambassador to Egypt at one point) nor the Egyptian military were impressed by... considering that the leaked messages described him being viewed as a Mubarak "poodle," hopefully it's a figurehead role.

My understanding re: Jordan is that King Abdullah decided to "get in front of that wave" while the people were still more angry at his government than at him... in short, toss his government to save his monarchy. I've heard claims that the same might have actually worked had Mubarak been way faster -- 25 January faster -- with concessions, but that seems unlikely in retrospect considering that the protesters seem aware that both Mubarak and the regime were so tied together.
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Re: Egyptians protesting across the country

Post by Phantasee »

The army’s stamp

1) Suspended constitution

2) Dissolved parliament

3) Ordered Supreme Council of Armed Forces to rule by decree for at least six months or until the end of elections

4) Installed Armed Forces Commander as head of state

5) Banned strikes

6) Retained existing cabinet

7) Promised referendum on constitutional amendments
Globe and Mail wrote:Egypt’s ‘Robespierre moment’ won’t mean instant democracy
PATRICK MARTIN
CAIRO— From Monday's Globe and Mail
Published Sunday, Feb. 13, 2011 9:13PM EST
Last updated Monday, Feb. 14, 2011 11:42AM EST

Those who thought Egypt was on the fast track to democracy had better think again. That was the message issued Sunday by Egypt’s official new rulers: The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces.

It became obvious to the several hundred protesters still occupying Tahrir Square when the army, moving at dawn Sunday, allowed traffic to once again cross the city’s largest central square (and ground zero of the popular uprising). It was a rude awakening.

When many of the protesters resisted, they were met by force from military police, some wielding wooden sticks, eerily reminiscent of the clashes with the country’s security police late last month.

And the new rules became clear to the rest of the country when the Supreme Council issued a decree suspending the constitution, dissolving both houses of parliament, and making the chairman of the council, Field-Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, the country’s head of state.

The council said it would continue to administer the affairs of the country “for a period of six months or until [parliamentary] and presidential elections are held.”

“This is a wide-open term of office,” noted a Western diplomat. There is no date set for those elections.

A spokesman for the armed forces also warned against anyone creating “chaos and disorder” and indicated the council would issue on Monday a ban on strikes and other labour assemblies.

Many opposition figures pointed to the positive side of the Supreme Council’s message.

“It is a victory for the revolution,” said Ayman Nour, who ran against Mr. Mubarak in 2005. “I think this will satisfy the protesters … especially the part related to dissolving the parliament.”

The Supreme Council did say a commission would be created to draft amendments to the constitution and that the proposed changes would be submitted to the people for approval in a referendum.

And it proclaimed that its undertakings were based in the council’s belief that “human freedom, the rule of law, support for the value of equality, pluralistic democracy, social justice, and the uprooting of corruption are the bases for the legitimacy of any system of governance that will lead the country in the upcoming period.” All are viewed as noble principles.

Earlier, the council announced that the current, two-week-old cabinet, led by Prime Minister Ahmed Mohamed Shafik, a former commander of the air force, would remain in place to administer the various departments of the government and report to the Supreme Council.

Suspicions about the absoluteness of the interim regime’s power can be found among many of the young protest leaders.

“It ain’t over,” tweeted one of their prominent commentators on Sunday.

There will be attempts to placate people by various measures, concerned observers say – steps such as the removal of the hated 29-year-old state of emergency law that limits freedom of assembly and allows for arrests without charge.

“Of course ending the law is a lot easier to do now that country is under martial law,” the diplomat said.

Some say the constitutional reform process itself and its promise of free and fair elections will keep many people assuaged. But the biggest bone the council seems ready to throw the people is the prosecution of allegedly corrupt officials of the former regime.

As many as 43 former ministers and party officials now are forbidden to travel, pending investigations into their financial dealings. A “Google doc” was opened Sunday by protest leaders, inviting people to list the Egyptian people and companies they believe warrant investigation.

“This is their Robespierre moment,” said one human rights activist, referring to the French revolutionary who led the Reign of Terror in 1794 that executed more than a thousand former officials who were declared enemies of the people.

“These things are very much the focus of the revolutionary group now,” said an Egyptian business consultant with some worried clients.

Established groups such as the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights already have been developing substantial dossiers on many former officials including Hosni Mubarak and his family.

The kind of corruption that is most prevalent, these people say, involves acquisition of state assets, especially property, at little or no cost.

Allegations that the armed forces themselves may be corrupt in approving mining and oil projects are unlikely to be investigated, observers say.

As far as most, mostly poor, Egyptians are concerned, the chief concern is the economy.

Just as the pro-democracy activists are on the way to achieving their goals, low-paid workers want their goals of economic betterment to be achieved. That explains why Egypt saw a large number of wild-cat industrial actions being taken Sunday at state and private companies, actions the military is quickly suppressing.

But while a truly improved economy is a generational project, political changes must come sooner. Even before the reform process is completed, political organizations will be taking shape.

In a country where one party has ruled for almost all the past 60 years, it will take a while for others to form and develop.

And while no one can run under the disgraced banner of that ruling National Democratic Party, “you can expect people from that party to regroup and adopt a new name,” the diplomat said. In the short run, “that’s likely to be the party to win the next election.”

As for president, “I expect the army will pick or approve a candidate, who will run under that party’s name,” the diplomat added.

“The army has been politically entrenched in this country for 60 years. You can’t expect it to uproot all that power and influence.”

Who are the most likely candidates for president in a future election?

Not Ayman Nour, most observers say. He lacks the following and structure. And not Mohamed ElBaradei either. The distinguished former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency has been too detached from the country.

Amr Moussa is perhaps the early favourite. The outgoing secretary-general of the Cairo-based Arab League is extremely popular with the people. A former foreign minister, he was sent into political exile by Mr. Mubarak and seems untainted by the last decade of apparent excess. He could be quite acceptable to the military, observers say.

Though Mr. Moussa, a frequent critic of Israeli policy, would not be a popular choice in Washington or Jerusalem.
I think the Globe is being a little alarmist re: military rule, but it is worth thinking about.

I'm also hearing that Mubarak is in a coma following his last speech.
XXXI
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