Self Sustaining Cities

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Broomstick »

Simon_Jester wrote:Broomstick is right: these kinds of city plans need a LOT of wiggle room for failures and complications. Otherwise, a relatively minor accident makes the city uninhabitable, and even routine things that cause service to stop at a particular site will cause huge annoying problems for people all over the city.
^ That's because I've lived in a major city with viable mass transit.

One reason Chicago's mass transit works (despite many, many complaints) is that it is very rare that passengers can't take an alternate, or traffic can't be routed around problems. You MUST have a certain level of redundancy. When Chicago's entire downtown subway network flooded in 1992 temporary bus terminals were set up at train stations prior to the tunnels, and more busses were routed through the city center (they might even have borrowed buses from surronding suburbs, it's been long enough I don't remember all the details). This enabled people to get where they needed to go for the weeks it took to get the subways drained, dried, and restored to safe operation.

Or, for an earlier accident, the 1977 Loop derailment where a train fell off the elevated tracks. This screwed up the train lines AND traffic on the street below. Again, traffic could be re-routed around the accident site until it was cleared up.

That just one city's experience. I'm sure every city using mass transit will have similar tales to tell.

Purple, your cities will not be immune to such catastrophes, hence the need for rerouting. Accidents happen because machines break, people make mistakes, and no one controls the weather (or earthquakes or volcanoes or meteor strikes...)

And you will need vehicles and machinery that can operate independently of tracks and rails to get to such sites and do clean up and repairs.
That kind of thing undermines your ability to run a stable society: either you're constantly having to make everything work near-perfectly just to get it to work at all, or you're accepting frequent breakdowns and nuisances for the public, which encourages them to support your overthrow in favor of someone who will make the trains run on time.
Again, from Chicago - it's an axiom that if the mayor can't keep traffic moving, even in the face of natural disaster, he will not be re-elected. Last time that actually happened was mayor Bilandic in 1979, but it's a real issue in big cities. Granted, Purple's society probably doesn't have elections, but as we recently saw in Egypt if people are unhappy enough they may spontaneously "vote" by showing up in a crowd of a million or so and demanding change.
Well I guess but since I get to plan each city from the ground up I can make a separate number of freight only lines to the places I know that I will put stuff that needs them. After all, we do have the whole state planed economy thing going.
Historically, planned economies rarely build whole cities "from the ground up." To do that, you'd have to build a whole new city in the middle of nowhere (i.e., in a place no one ever thought urgently needed a new city before). There are exceptions, but not many and they're usually one-off achievements.
And usually post-disaster, such as Chicago re-drawing the street grid after most of the city burned to the ground. I suppose you could raze every existing city... but the populace will NOT be happy if you start your reign in that manner.
Moreover, you have to allow yourself some freedom to change things around after the fact- if a steel mill is closed and razed to make room for more housing, and if thirty years later the housing is converted to an office block while a new factory is built on the edge of town, you need a transportation network that can adapt.
And that's another point - societies are never truly static. Needs change. Ore will be used up in one place and a new mine will open elsewhere. Some widget will no longer be needed, and another will be invented, so you'll have to shift factories and workers around. Your society may do this more slowly than ours, but it will happen. Over time you'll need to move ports as waterways silt up or erode. Time does not stand still.
Your society will be a lot less dysfunctional if people can move around it without a bureaucrat deciding they need to. Any paperwork they fill out should be more of a routine matter (like, say, filing a change of address in a real society) and less like a "begging permission you're not likely to get" situation.
Which gets back to my point about people earning the privilege to move or do certain things. It gives the ambitious an outlet for their energy. It makes people feel less trapped. It gives them sufficient power over their lives they are less likely to rebel, which means your society spends less time and effort on repression. Indeed, done right it might lead to most of the social control operating through peer pressure.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Simon_Jester »

Broomstick wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Broomstick is right: these kinds of city plans need a LOT of wiggle room for failures and complications. Otherwise, a relatively minor accident makes the city uninhabitable, and even routine things that cause service to stop at a particular site will cause huge annoying problems for people all over the city.
^ That's because I've lived in a major city with viable mass transit.

One reason Chicago's mass transit works (despite many, many complaints) is that it is very rare that passengers can't take an alternate, or traffic can't be routed around problems. You MUST have a certain level of redundancy...
To be fair, Purple's system is at least somewhat redundant. There are surface streets, and the massively parallel subway network means that in theory you can always get where you're going by taking the next tube over. But heavy reliance on the subways for passenger transport is a problem even so- as you note, it's entirely possible for the whole subway network to get flooded by a nasty enough accident.
That kind of thing undermines your ability to run a stable society: either you're constantly having to make everything work near-perfectly just to get it to work at all, or you're accepting frequent breakdowns and nuisances for the public, which encourages them to support your overthrow in favor of someone who will make the trains run on time.
Again, from Chicago - it's an axiom that if the mayor can't keep traffic moving, even in the face of natural disaster, he will not be re-elected. Last time that actually happened was mayor Bilandic in 1979, but it's a real issue in big cities. Granted, Purple's society probably doesn't have elections, but as we recently saw in Egypt if people are unhappy enough they may spontaneously "vote" by showing up in a crowd of a million or so and demanding change.
Even if the government is willing to get rid of mass demonstrations by cluster-bombing them, and somehow I imagine that Purple thinks this is a viable way to run a government...

There's also internal politics to factor in. Any ambitious underling who wants to take over the government and restructure it according to his whims will find powerful allies among the general public and the bureaucracy if the bulk of the population is frustrated by failures in the mass transit system. So will any radical member of the existing government who thinks the solution to all the country's problems is something really extreme, the equivalent of the massive economic reshufflings under people like Stalin and Mao.
Historically, planned economies rarely build whole cities "from the ground up." To do that, you'd have to build a whole new city in the middle of nowhere (i.e., in a place no one ever thought urgently needed a new city before). There are exceptions, but not many and they're usually one-off achievements.
And usually post-disaster, such as Chicago re-drawing the street grid after most of the city burned to the ground. I suppose you could raze every existing city... but the populace will NOT be happy if you start your reign in that manner.
Plus, of course, that huge starting cost and wanton destructiveness will gut your economy for the rest of your reign. It reminds me of the Year Zero doctrine in Cambodia, which had hideous results for Cambodians on every possible level.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

I think I have found the source of all the problems with my designs so far. I have approached the problem from the wrong side. Rather than defining the society I want to have and making a city plan to fit I did the exact opposite. And that can't end well.

So now allow me to try again. I shall now describe and define the kind of society that I want. And than you can tell me if you think it would work and if any of my urban planing ideas would fit into it.


The society in question is composed out of a varying number of alien species but dominated by a species of humanoids originally from Alpha Centaury. The species can not interbreed with one another and usual live in separate cities or even planets so ethnic mixing does not usually occur.


The society is based on the Confucian principal of striving for excellence in what ever you do and accepting your lot in life. What this means is that people are indoctrinated into believing that all jobs are equally important and that what ever it is they end up doing the only thing that should mater is that they give their best at all times. Another thing about their society that must be taken into account is that there is no state religion. But instead there is a cult of "the system". They are told from the moment they know one word from another that the system they live under is the only thing standing between them and genocide. And this statement is not really false. As such, their mindset becomes much like late 20th century Japan with people protesting on the streets so they can be allowed to work more. They see it as their ultimate duty to always work their hardest to support the system for it is the system that must last forever.

In essence if I had to write a message that would sum up their mind set in one single phrase it would be: "The individual will end, the species will end, the universe will end but the system must go on no mater what. And because of this the slave should not strive to be more than a slave. But instead he should rejoice in his slavery and seek to be the best slave he can be. For excellence and service to the state and the people is its own reward."


The entire system is built around this combination of duty and sacrifice. To advance in society therefore is not a goal or a choice but a duty. If you are born intelligent or talented than there is no choice for you. You can not chose to be a lazy bum posting comments on youtube and wasting your life away. It is your duty to use that intelligence for the betterment of the system and the nation as a whole. To shrink away from that duty is treason. And to be a traitor of that sort means being renounced and ostracized by everyone even ones family on the grounds of simple disgust.

As young as it is practical children will be screened to select intelligent and talented ones and this process of screening will continue throughout their education. Those deemed exceptional will be separated and pushed to excel and grow while receiving even more indoctrination into the duty of being the best they can be. Now, this is not the sort of Hyper version of the Asian system where all children are pushed beyond their limits. No one expects that the stupid kid has to be the best in his class. But he has to be the best he can be. His ancestors lived and died for that system and it is his duty to live and die for it as well so that his children can do the same. There is no shame in being a manual laborer and no pride in being an intellectual. It is how you perform that duty that brings pride or shame.


Politically speaking the system is centralized but rather open. The supreme ruler of all things is a hereditary Emperor but he is not some sort of despot. Instead, the next Emperor is groomed from early youth (as young as possible) to see his life as one of performing a duty for his people. The Emperor has the least free time and the least pleasure of all the citizens and at the same time he is the most indoctrinated of them all. In a way he is the greatest slave of them all.

Bellow the Emperor is a complex bureaucratic structure designed to help him do his duty and take care of most of the micromanagement. Since there is no such thing as a political party (In fact politics are a completely alien concept to them) the only way to advance through this structure is merit. The laws regarding what sort of qualifications and credentials are required for each position are written up in great detail and the only way to get into a position of power is to be one of the best in the field in the entire nation.

Now here is the strange bit. The further you advance up the line toward the Emperor the less freedom and joy and the more duty your life becomes. A person in a position of power can newer have enough free time to actually enjoy it in any meaningful way let alone be corrupt. What this means is that the only ones that do get in such positions are fanatically devout to the cult of the system. For that is the only reason someone would chose to make such a huge sacrifice.


Now, tell me what you think.

PS. I know that there will be a lot of buried tensions underneath such a system. But the indoctrination and propaganda should keep these suppressed as people consider such thoughts treasonous and shameful.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
sirocco
Padawan Learner
Posts: 191
Joined: 2009-11-08 09:32am
Location: I don't know!

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by sirocco »

2 questions:

- what if the emperor's son is a total idiot? Will he be relegated to menial labor like the systems demands it or find a less important bureaucratic job?

- If your cities are made of self-sustaining blocks, would each one be single-species oriented or is there some intermingling?
Future is a common dream. Past is a shared lie.
There is the only the 3 Presents : the Present of Today, the Present of Tomorrow and the Present of Yesterday.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

sirocco wrote:- what if the emperor's son is a total idiot? Will he be relegated to menial labor like the systems demands it or find a less important bureaucratic job?
Futuristic levels of genetic control over the kind of child that gets born ensures that he is not. I limit that to my emperors thou since it's not exactly a cheap procedure to custom build a perfect baby like that.
- If your cities are made of self-sustaining blocks, would each one be single-species oriented or is there some intermingling?
Well ideally I am thinking of having each planet be single species. Or in case of mixed planets have different continents inhabited by different species. In essence, intermingling is not discouraged but it just should not happen much naturally since it makes no sense for the state to put someone in a place where he will be separated from his own kind.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Simon_Jester »

Again, it's worth remembering that the system has to have a capacity to acknowledge fundamental human (or generic-sentient) limits. Duty to the System before all else, fine, but the average person is still liable to go rather mad if they are expected to live in a prison as part of their duty.

So if you want to put together a society like this, bear in mind that many of the people who live in it will have strange and complex psychological issues, from the conflict of their basic desires and needs against the society at large. Likewise, the society's reaction to outsiders (and 'outside context problems') is likely to be awkward and messy- as is usually the case among conservative, duty-oriented cultures confronting civilizations that can do and be things they never imagined doing and being.

I'm not saying you won't be factoring this stuff in. But it's important not to let it slip: the degree to which all this "live in misery for the greater glory of the System" stuff messes with the heads of the people living in it will be one of the most important things that makes your society different from Generic Science Fiction.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

Simon_Jester wrote:Again, it's worth remembering that the system has to have a capacity to acknowledge fundamental human (or generic-sentient) limits. Duty to the System before all else, fine, but the average person is still liable to go rather mad if they are expected to live in a prison as part of their duty.
Well, I don't see how newer leaving the planet you are on counts as a prison. I will relax limits to allow people to move around and travel on the same planet as much as it is practical.
So if you want to put together a society like this, bear in mind that many of the people who live in it will have strange and complex psychological issues, from the conflict of their basic desires and needs against the society at large.
This is actually a major plot point I am using. The society can only exist because people sacrifice each day and that in turn leads to them having to sacrifice. It's a vicious closed loop.
Likewise, the society's reaction to outsiders (and 'outside context problems') is likely to be awkward and messy- as is usually the case among conservative, duty-oriented cultures confronting civilizations that can do and be things they never imagined doing and being.
Well the idea is that they are paranoid and xenophobic because they are such a society. This leads them into conflict with alien species that leads to wars that in turn give them justification to be paranoid and xenophobic.
I'm not saying you won't be factoring this stuff in. But it's important not to let it slip: the degree to which all this "live in misery for the greater glory of the System" stuff messes with the heads of the people living in it will be one of the most important things that makes your society different from Generic Science Fiction.
That is what I am aiming for. The higher up people get the more messed up they get until you reach the level of Emperor who is well and truly messed up beyond belief. Like the Emperor uses meditation to suppress his own emotions so he can be focused exclusively to serving the system.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Broomstick »

Regarding human limits:

If we take it as a given that these people are brainwashed taught to sacrifice all for the system such that they beg for MORE work after laboring 70-80-100 hours a week there may need to social controls instituted to keep them from breaking down.

For example, just as one has a duty to work and sacrifice for the state one also has a duty to take care of oneself so one can give one's maximum to the state. Thus, there needs to be instituted an obligation to eat healthy meals, get sufficient exercise, etc. Just as machinery needs to be properly maintained so does the human body (or whatever species you're talking about). So the hyper-sacrificing types might well be just as obsessed with taking a lunch of a scientifically determined ideal time span and consuming scientifically balanced food selections. Failure to take that 30 or 45 (or whatever) minute lunch would be seen as just as bad as failing to show up to work on time. Failure to work out whatever number of hours at the gym or in a team sport to maintain optimum health likewise. (Perhaps, to slake the need for people to sacrifice for the common good, gyms might have devices like stationary bicycles hooked up to generators so all that exercise generates a small amount of electrical power, or they use muscle power to agitate and oxygenate the water in the aquaponics systems or whatever). The high-level people might be forced to take a vacation every so many months, doing some other activity than what they normally do in order to rest and regenerate their mental and physical facilities.

People producing the entertainment in this society would then be seen in the same level as cooks - providing a necessary service to maintain the health of their fellow citizens. They probably would have a lot less entertainment than we do, but "play" is vital to human societies.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, all I'm going to say about it is:

Man, this place is a powder keg as soon as anything starts changing. It's a very 'high-tension' society: many powerful forces pent up and working against each other to hold the system in some kind of static equilibrium. Systems like that do not handle the change well when they go from static equilibrium* to dynamic.**

Watching it all go up in flames the first time someone drops a match in would make for interesting times.

*As in "nothing is moving..."
**As in "Things are moving around but still well-balanced and holding together."
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
sirocco
Padawan Learner
Posts: 191
Joined: 2009-11-08 09:32am
Location: I don't know!

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by sirocco »

I had a similar story at some time but more along city-states organization with a fairly large zone of influence around them.

And after some personal reflexion, it came to me that the more advanced and xenophobic a civilization is, the less people will want to travel to other cities or even other blocks of their own city. Even if you have global trends for nearly everything, ultimately we are talking about radically different species with different mindsets living in totally independent megapolis.

Heck even our own cities are full of rats and ants but we just don't interact with them except when trying to gas them. And if they could do the same, we would at least try to avoid their most populous living zones.

Here people would have access to the analog of internet and ST holodecks for enjoyment, local products and artificially produced spices for food, and so on. Moving out would be so absurdly expensive that you'd nearly live and die in the same flat.

Back to your idea, I'd want to raise 2 more questions:

- which race is the emperor part of? Alpha Centaurian? Is it the same for each one in the government?

- how do you deal with social deviants like artists or really high IQ scientists who abide by the law/the system but are openly critical towards it? Do you accept their anti-conformism (and recognize that for some people, propaganda doesn't work at all) or try some hardcore brainwash (with the risk of having them lose what made them so special)?
Future is a common dream. Past is a shared lie.
There is the only the 3 Presents : the Present of Today, the Present of Tomorrow and the Present of Yesterday.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

I am trying to make this work but I don't want it to turn too much into a human hive if you know what I mean. I want the people to be collectivistic and self sacrificing but not just gears in the machine. The freaky thing really is that I want to show this society as an utopia and not a dystopia. The people are actually happy with this.

I newer torture or just outright murder my people soviet style and I would newer try and break them down into drones. The whole point if the system is that the people should be happy with what they have and fight for it because they genuinely believe in it.

So, to facilitate this how about these replies:
Broomstick wrote:Regarding human limits:

If we take it as a given that these people are brainwashed taught to sacrifice all for the system such that they beg for MORE work after laboring 70-80-100 hours a week there may need to social controls instituted to keep them from breaking down.
A good point. How about this. For one thing I would limit how much they can work depending on the job. But the average citizen won't go above the standard 6 day work week with 8h per day.

However at the same time the state will promote that excellence must expand into other things as well. In their free time, the people are not to sit around doing nothing but they are to produce art, play with children, do sports, read books and do other enlightening things. The individual has the duty to be the most productive he can be but not only on his job. He is to be the best person and best human he can be and always strive to better them self. In essence, when not excelling at work they should find hobbies that they like to do and excel at those. And the state would support many hobbies and side activities, hold competitions, give out prizes and generally work to keep the people playing in their free time.
For example, just as one has a duty to work and sacrifice for the state one also has a duty to take care of oneself so one can give one's maximum to the state. Thus, there needs to be instituted an obligation to eat healthy meals, get sufficient exercise, etc. Just as machinery needs to be properly maintained so does the human body (or whatever species you're talking about).

Yes, this absolutely. However not as extreme as that. Being fat and out of shape or sickly would indeed be a failing. But I don't want to control them that much that their lives become just a series of scheduled procedures and tasks.
So the hyper-sacrificing types might well be just as obsessed with taking a lunch of a scientifically determined ideal time span and consuming scientifically balanced food selections. Failure to take that 30 or 45 (or whatever) minute lunch would be seen as just as bad as failing to show up to work on time.
This level of dedication would only ever be seen on the level of the Emperor and his closest advisers.
The high-level people might be forced to take a vacation every so many months, doing some other activity than what they normally do in order to rest and regenerate their mental and physical facilities.
This I definitively agree with.
People producing the entertainment in this society would then be seen in the same level as cooks - providing a necessary service to maintain the health of their fellow citizens. They probably would have a lot less entertainment than we do, but "play" is vital to human societies.
A lot less than the modern west yes. But also quite different types of entertainment. For example the state would support citizens banding together to form amateur theaters in their free time.

Also, I do have a internet equivalent and it has a youtube equivalent (although state checked) but I do not have the concept of intellectual property. So file sharing is going to be a big hit.
sirocco wrote:- which race is the emperor part of? Alpha Centaurian?
Yes since they are the ones who founded the Empire.
Is it the same for each one in the government?
Access to the government is allowed to anyone. Only merit counts and nothing else. So species or gender are simply not even noted on the records.
- how do you deal with social deviants like artists or really high IQ scientists who abide by the law/the system but are openly critical towards it?
They would be split up into two groups.

The first are those who are loyal to the ideal behind the system but believe the implementation is flawed. Unless their ideas are just too radical these would be recruited into government programs to see just how they think things could be improved to make the system closer to the ideals behind it. After all this is exactly the kind of people the government hopes to find. And even if they are too radical they can be manipulated and exploited better in positions where they can be watched more closely.

The second are those who are against the system and the ideals behind it completely. And such citizens can not possibly be trusted to be loyal now can they? I mean, if he hates the system than how can he be expected to work to improve it? Traitors they be.
Do you accept their anti-conformism (and recognize that for some people, propaganda doesn't work at all) or try some hardcore brainwash (with the risk of having them lose what made them so special)?
Explained above. As long as they are loyal to the ideals and ready to work for the greater good of the whole they are free to take their own way toward it (abit watched by the inteligence agencies). But if someone just wants to tear the system down than he is a traitor. After all, what is the use of someone special if you can't make use of him at all.

But we would newer resort to the kind of methods used in 1984. It's better to just inprison/kill a person than to do that. Torturing its own citezens is not a good thing for a state to do.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Broomstick »

Purple wrote:He is to be the best person and best human he can be and always strive to better them self. In essence, when not excelling at work they should find hobbies that they like to do and excel at those. And the state would support many hobbies and side activities, hold competitions, give out prizes and generally work to keep the people playing in their free time.
Somewhat like the classic samurai was supposed to have skills in flower arranging and the like as well as being a mighty warrior?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

Broomstick wrote:
Purple wrote:He is to be the best person and best human he can be and always strive to better them self. In essence, when not excelling at work they should find hobbies that they like to do and excel at those. And the state would support many hobbies and side activities, hold competitions, give out prizes and generally work to keep the people playing in their free time.
Somewhat like the classic samurai was supposed to have skills in flower arranging and the like as well as being a mighty warrior?
Yes, kind of.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
jollyreaper
Jedi Master
Posts: 1127
Joined: 2010-06-28 10:19pm

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by jollyreaper »

Here is your perfect city, MEGASANTI. from Sim City. It's a city only a soviet urban planner could love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU
User avatar
Sonnenburg
Official Dave Barry Clone
Posts: 2305
Joined: 2002-11-05 08:35pm
Location: Gotham City
Contact:

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Sonnenburg »

You plan to indoctrinate your citizens, and those that still oppose the system that don't pass some litmus test are imprisoned or just flat out killed... and you want this place to be seen as a utopia? That's a word not normally associated with political prisoners and executing dissidents. And I again point to Brave New World to show that a dystopia doesn't need fear or torture to control people, it can make them too content to care, but it doesn't suddenly become a utopia if their happiness comes from drugs and indoctrination. If a program was begun to make all women believe men are entitled to their bodies, that they can be groped or told to perform sex acts by any man, any time, anywhere, would this suddenly be seen as a good society just because the women were indoctrinated to be happy about it?

You say you want your citizens to so believe in your system that they fight to protect it, and yet, a system that condemns its own to imprisonment or death for beliefs it disapproves of doesn't show a system worthy of being fought for.

I'm not trying to attack you, but I think there's a flaw in your whole approach to this, that you believe even with a certain code or social forces you can have people wanting to act the way you like and have it be a good thing. You might as well assume people are perfect cubes so that there's no wasted space in trains and buildings.

I see a self-sustaining city concept in a scenario where the land is rife with a threat without technological capabilities, so that the city has some boundaries that will ensure this threat cannot enter, but cannot be extended to open areas for technical and/or practical reasons. It still wouldn't be utopia, but there'd be a reasonable reason for everyone to accept a strong central authority: the threat will never be gone, any screwup will lead to annihilation, and self-interest will only make it more likely something will go wrong.
Chuck

Image
jollyreaper
Jedi Master
Posts: 1127
Joined: 2010-06-28 10:19pm

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by jollyreaper »

I could see it as maybe a semi-sustainable dystopia but it certainly doesn't resemble anyone's sort of ideal. It makes me think more like culture change imposed with the barrel of a gun like in China or Cambodia.

Villages and cities develop in an undirected process not unlike natural selection. Nature isn't trying things out, there's just random changes and if they aren't very good that line dies out and something else gets a shot. Anyone trying to look at that city and figure things out will be left scratching his head and probably missing something. And when he tries to make a wholesale change that ripples across the entire city, he'll likely be ignorant of important variables that will be the doom of his plan.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

Sonnenburg wrote:You plan to indoctrinate your citizens, and those that still oppose the system that don't pass some litmus test are imprisoned or just flat out killed... and you want this place to be seen as a utopia?
I newer said that. All I said is that as horrible as that sounds even that would be prefeable to breaking them like the other guy said. In reality, my system is designed with a great release valve to prevent just that sort of case.

The idea is hidden in the way people advance. You see, while people will expect you to excel there is no actual physical threat making you do anything you don't apply for your self. Smart kids do get singled out and indoctrinated so much is true. But if that fails and they don't want to be intellectuals no one is physically going to force them to do it. After all, if someone does not have that sense of duty and honor than it is better for everyone that he remains some low level clerk or something where he won't do damage. He gets off with less work (while being the best low level office clerk he can be) and the state gets one high level terrorist less to worry about. People will look down on him and talk about what he could have been. But if he does not have the sense of duty and honor he won't mind it either.

No one is forcing you to advance through society. And at the same time the job of a garbage man is seen equal to that of a doctor or minister. Plus, the more you advance the more you have to work and the less you have free time and enjoyment. This means that there is absolutely no incentive or reason for anyone to advance other than his own sense of duty. So anyone who does not have that sense of duty will simply not have any logical reason to apply for advancement in the first place. Hence, he will not get into a position where he is both highly intelligent, holds a high position and hates the state.

In a modern society the incentive for someone to rise is to get power, status and money. I have removed all those from the equation. In fact I have added them to the other side. They are actually incentive to not advance and not do your best. So the only thing that remains to make the people advance is loyalty. Because of this I do not need to force people to do anything. They volunteer.


I honestly don't know why you people want to imagine that any of this is actually enforced by anything other than propaganda and culture.
And I again point to Brave New World to show that a dystopia doesn't need fear or torture to control people, it can make them too content to care, but it doesn't suddenly become a utopia if their happiness comes from drugs and indoctrination. If a program was begun to make all women believe men are entitled to their bodies, that they can be groped or told to perform sex acts by any man, any time, anywhere, would this suddenly be seen as a good society just because the women were indoctrinated to be happy about it?
Well yes, sort of. If they like it why not. But this is not exactly what I am talking about. See above.
I'm not trying to attack you, but I think there's a flaw in your whole approach to this, that you believe even with a certain code or social forces you can have people wanting to act the way you like and have it be a good thing. You might as well assume people are perfect cubes so that there's no wasted space in trains and buildings.
And the kind of people that don't want to act that way simply get relegated by their own choice to the sort of middle class life style of a janitor or a school teacher. The state will do everything in its power to instill into children this sense of duty so that they don't settle for that. But if that fails someone needs to clean the toilets as well.
I see a self-sustaining city concept in a scenario where the land is rife with a threat without technological capabilities, so that the city has some boundaries that will ensure this threat cannot enter, but cannot be extended to open areas for technical and/or practical reasons. It still wouldn't be utopia, but there'd be a reasonable reason for everyone to accept a strong central authority: the threat will never be gone, any screwup will lead to annihilation, and self-interest will only make it more likely something will go wrong.
This is the basis of my fictional nation. It is self contained, does not trade, does not negotiate past making military treaties and defensive pacts and keep to it self. Each time the state tried to do more it ended up being betrayed.


PS. The idea behind building a city from the ground up is that in space when you start colonizing other planets that is what you have to do. No gradual transition from a past chaotic society and infrastructural model is possible on a planet where no past society and infrastructural model existed.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

Dam edit window. I just need to add this.

The entire idea behind my concept is that the society is controlled through a mixture of propaganda, indoctrination and peer pressure. For the vast majority of the people that is enough. And the small number of people who are not effected simply become washouts stuck in a dead end job but having no real reason to complain other than being looked down on.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
Sonnenburg
Official Dave Barry Clone
Posts: 2305
Joined: 2002-11-05 08:35pm
Location: Gotham City
Contact:

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Sonnenburg »

Edit: Damn system ate my post and just posted a quote of yours. This is why I stopped posting on message boards, I don't lose an entire idea because of a glitch.
Chuck

Image
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

I know your pain.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

I think this needs a bump. Since I really need to continue the discussion and all.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
sirocco
Padawan Learner
Posts: 191
Joined: 2009-11-08 09:32am
Location: I don't know!

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by sirocco »

From what I understood: your system is somewhat an evolved version of Chinese doctrine. People knows about democracy and all that stuff but they are aware that democracy wouldn't be able to put food on their table (due to overpopulation, social diversity, lack of resources, etc.), so they chose to follow an oppressive but overall efficient government. Right?
Future is a common dream. Past is a shared lie.
There is the only the 3 Presents : the Present of Today, the Present of Tomorrow and the Present of Yesterday.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Self Sustaining Cities

Post by Purple »

That is sort of the case. However if you look at it they are not even really aware of such a concept as democracy since they newer had it. They went into this strait from feudalism and since they are naturally xenophobic due to the wars in their past the state does not allow civilians to travel abroad. This combined with the utter lack of trade and complete isolation (there anti no internet or television in space due to the distances involved) means that the average citizen will newer even hear the word. The only ones that will be familiar with the concept are soldiers fighting to conquer other people or highly indoctrinated diplomats.

So one of the reasons they stick with this is because they know it works and the other is that they know of nothing else.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Post Reply