Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberties?

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberties?

Post by Thanas »

I came acrosss this very interesting article by Glenn Greenwald.
It's long been clear that the best (and perhaps only) political hope for civil liberties in the U.S. is an alliance that transcends the standard Democrat v. GOP or left v. right dichotomies. Last night's surprising (and temporary) failure of the House to extend some of the most controversial powers of the Patriot Act -- an extension jointly championed by the House GOP leadership and the Obama White House -- perfectly illustrates why this is true.

The establishments of both political parties -- whether because of actual conviction or political calculation -- are equally devoted to the National Security State, the Surveillance State, and the endless erosions of core liberties they entail. Partisan devotees of each party generally pretend to care about such liberties only when the other party is in power -- because screaming about abuses of power confers political advantage and enables demonization of the President -- but they quickly ignore or even justify the destruction of those liberties when their own party wields power. Hence, Democratic loyalists spent years screeching that Bush was "shredding the Constitution" for supporting policies which Barack Obama now enthusiastically supports, while right-wing stalwarts -- who spent years cheering on every Bush-led assault on basic Constitutional limits in the name of Terrorism -- flamboyantly read from the Constitution during the Obama era as though they venerate that document as sacred. The war on civil liberties in the U.S. is a fully bipartisan endeavor, and no effective opposition is possible through fealty to either of the two parties.

For most civil liberties incursions over the last decade, there's been at least some glimmer of opposition on the Left -- exemplified by people like Russ Feingold in the Senate and the Congressional Black Caucus and Dennis Kucinich in the House. But they've been easily overwhelmed by the civil-liberties-hating mainstream of the Democratic Party, and particularly hampered by the lack of any meaningful partners on the Right (where Ron Paul has been a solitary voice on such matters). What has been most needed -- and most harmfully non-existent -- is some minimal amount of intellectual honesty and consistency from America's conservatives, whose rhetoric of "limited government" and "individual rights" has translated into nothing other than lockstep support for ever-increasing government power and a highly authoritarian political mindset. It is that dynamic that has marginalized civil liberties advocacy -- and rendered civil liberties erosions inevitable -- no matter which party is in control.
[...]
This has been just as true in the GOP Congress and the Democratic Congress, and with both Bush and Obama in the White House. Yesterday, on the very same day that the Obama White House demanded that Egypt repeal its 30-year-old "emergency law," it also demanded enactment of the House GOP's proposal to extend America's own emergency law -- the Patriot Act -- for three more years with no new oversight (the White House actually wants a longer extension than the House GOP is willing to support). Meanwhile, in the Senate, Pat Leahy has introduced a bill to impose some very mild and inadequate safeguards on these Patriot Act powers (some of which the DOJ has voluntarily accepted), but those efforts are being thwarted by the Democrats' Senate Intelligence Committee Chair, Dianne Feinstein -- easily one of the most implacable enemies of civil liberties in the Congress and one of the most loyal servants of the National Security State which enriches her husband; just as she did last year, Feinstein has demanded a full extension of the Patriot Act with no reforms of any kind.

Put another way, the reform-free extension of the Bush-era Patriot Act is jointly assured by the most important Democratic power brokers (the Obama White House and Feinstein) and the Congressional GOP leadership. That's the same bipartisan dynamic that has repeated itself over and over for the last decade as civil liberties in the U.S. have steadily eroded.

* * * * *

But what happened last night highlights the potential to subvert the two-party stranglehold on these issues -- through a left-right alliance that opposes the Washington insiders who rule both parties. So confident was the House GOP leadership in commanding bipartisan support that they put the Patriot Act extension up for a vote using a fast-track procedure that prohibits debate and amendments and, in return, requires 2/3 approval. But 26 of the most conservative Republicans -- including several of the newly elected "Tea Party" members -- joined the majority of Democratic House members in voting against the extension, and it thus fell 7 votes short. These conservative members opposed extension on the ground that more time was needed to understand whether added safeguards and oversight are needed.

The significance of this event shouldn't be overstated. The proposed Patriot Act extension still commanded support from a significant majority of the House (277-148), and will easily pass once the GOP leadership brings up the bill for a vote again in a few weeks using the standard procedure that requires only majority approval. The vast majority of GOP members, including the leading Tea Party representatives, voted for it. The Senate will easily pass it. And the scope of the disagreement even among the Democrats opposing it is very narrow; even most of the "no" votes favor extending these provisions, albeit with the types of tepid safeguards proposed by Leahy. So in one sense, what happened last night -- as is true for most political "victories" -- was purely symbolic. The White House will get what it wants.

But while it shouldn't be overstated, there is a real significance here that also shouldn't be overlooked. Rachel Maddow last night pointed out that there is a split on the Right -- at least a rhetorical one -- between what she called "authoritarian conservatives" and "libertarian conservatives." At some point, the dogmatic emphasis on limited state power, not trusting the Federal Government, and individual liberties -- all staples of right-wing political propaganda, especially Tea Party sloganeering -- has to conflict with things like oversight-free federal domestic surveillance, limitless government detention powers, and impenetrable secrecy (to say nothing of exploiting state power to advance culture war aims). Not even our political culture can sustain contradictions as egregious as (a) reading reverently from the Constitution and venerating limits on federal power, and then (b) voting to vest the Federal Government with extraordinary powers of oversight-free surveillance aimed at the American people. This was the contradiction which Dennis Kucinich smartly exploited when challenging the Tea Party to join him in opposing the Patriot Act's extension[...]

There is precedent for this type of alliance on this and other issues. Early on in the Bush years, a bill to repeal Patriot Act abuses was co-sponsored by Kucinich and Ron Paul, and supported by the ACLU. A bill to audit the Federal Reserve was opposed by most of official Washington but enacted by a left-right alliance. Some of the earliest and most outspoken opposition to Bush civil liberties radicalism -- and the war in Iraq -- came jointly from the Left and from the Cato Institute. Religious Right groups scared of federal government oppression have long joined with the ACLU and others in opposing some civil liberties incursions, such as the Patriot Act. Controversy over things like TSA patdowns and the corrupt way the Wall Street bailout was manufactured came from both the Right and the Left. The fact that it's Tea Party Sen. Rand Paul willing to question the value of American financial and military assistance to other nations (including to Israel) -- while Democrats attack him for that brave position -- further underscores the potential here. And in other nations -- such as Britain -- one finds a genuine left-right alliance against the political establishment's relentless assaults on civil liberties.

[...]Last night's unexpected Patriot Act vote illustrates the tantalizing promise of such an alliance. Things would be vastly improved on the civil liberties front if the American Right was even minimally faithful to the political principles they claim to support. But the nature of that movement means that last night's vote is far more of an isolated aberration than anything likely to change the bipartisan dynamic in a positive way. Indeed, the very weak status of civil liberties in the U.S. is compellingly illustrated by the fact that an alliance with this deeply unprincipled and authoritarian movement is one of the few viable means for stemming the tide of the erosion.
I have not much to say except that one can find this kind of alliance in most European countries. For example in Germany, both the liberal/libertarian FDP and the socialist/post-communist PDS have opposed strong government incursions etc.

[obligatory comment how the USA needs a multi-party system here before this tangent gets started. Please, no discussion on that tangent in this thread]
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22640
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Dalton »

It's most certainly an aberration, given the Tea Party's record on same-sex marriage and gay rights. They don't give a shit about civil liberties. Fuck them.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Samuel »

Dalton wrote:It's most certainly an aberration, given the Tea Party's record on same-sex marriage and gay rights. They don't give a shit about civil liberties. Fuck them.
No, they care- as long as it affects them. If it doesn't hurt them but allows them to hurt others than they are in favor of it. It is perfectly consistent with rational sociopathy.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7553
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zaune »

Samuel wrote:No, they care- as long as it affects them. If it doesn't hurt them but allows them to hurt others than they are in favor of it. It is perfectly consistent with rational sociopathy.
The Patriot Act affecting the Tea Party would require the Obama Administration having the balls to declare them a terrorist organisation.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
SecondToDie
Padawan Learner
Posts: 241
Joined: 2005-06-19 02:45pm
Location: USA

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by SecondToDie »

Zaune wrote:The Patriot Act affecting the Tea Party would require the Obama Administration having the balls to declare them a terrorist organisation.
You realize that the "Tea Party" is not one organization, but many organizations and individuals, right?
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Thanas »

How does the Tea Party qualify anyway?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7553
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zaune »

SecondToDie wrote:You realize that the "Tea Party" is not one organization, but many organizations and individuals, right?
Well, alright, terrorist organisations plural.
Thanas wrote:How does the Tea Party qualify anyway?
I'm not completely familiar with all the details of the act, but I suspect that if they were being remotely consistent about implementing the act, that "don't retreat, RELOAD" quip and the subsequent Tuscon shooting incident would fit the bill.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Thanas »

No, they wouldn't. You could make a case that maybe, maybe they are agitating for violence.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7553
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zaune »

Point conceded; I had an idea the Patriot Act had a clause for "inciting/glorifying acts of terrorism" in it the way Britain's anti-terrorism laws do.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Thanas »

Maybe it does, but political speech is very much protected in the USA by the first amendment and I doubt Palin is going so far.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
General Mung Beans
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-04-17 10:47pm
Location: Orange Prefecture, California Sector, America Quadrant, Terra

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by General Mung Beans »

Dalton wrote:It's most certainly an aberration, given the Tea Party's record on same-sex marriage and gay rights. They don't give a shit about civil liberties. Fuck them.
As others have said, the Tea Party is not a monolithic bloc and has mainly concerned itself with economic issues. They include both traditional social conservatives and libertarians and the latter faction do include large amounts of people who are opposed to both bills like the PATRIOT Act and bans on gay marriage and whatnot.
El Moose Monstero: That would be the winning song at Eurovision. I still say the Moldovans were more fun. And that one about the Apricot Tree.
That said...it is growing on me.
Thanas: It is one of those songs that kinda get stuck in your head so if you hear it several times, you actually grow to like it.
General Zod: It's the musical version of Stockholm syndrome.
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22640
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Dalton »

General Mung Beans wrote:
Dalton wrote:It's most certainly an aberration, given the Tea Party's record on same-sex marriage and gay rights. They don't give a shit about civil liberties. Fuck them.
As others have said, the Tea Party is not a monolithic bloc and has mainly concerned itself with economic issues. They include both traditional social conservatives and libertarians and the latter faction do include large amounts of people who are opposed to both bills like the PATRIOT Act and bans on gay marriage and whatnot.
And how many of the latter are in Congress right now?
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Samuel »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/0 ... #sb=164043

Fifty-two percent of respondents also said that "compared to the size of their group, lesbians and gays have too much political power."

•88% of Tea Party supporters approve of the controversial immigration law recently enacted in Arizona.
•Only 18% of those surveyed say gay and lesbian couples should have the legal right to marry.

For comparison 20% of Repulbicans approve of same-sex marriage. So the tea party is composed as the exact same people that make up conservatives and the Republican party- they just don't like the current leadership.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/118378/Major ... riage.aspx
User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4260
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by loomer »

When did American Libertarianism really just become hardcore conservatism, anyway? The pro-civil rights bent of the movement was there at least fifteen years back, I think, but when did that stop?
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by bobalot »

loomer wrote:When did American Libertarianism really just become hardcore conservatism, anyway? The pro-civil rights bent of the movement was there at least fifteen years back, I think, but when did that stop?
I'm not sure. Today, we have Libertarians who think the civil rights act is a form of government tyranny. It's hard to imagine a time where libertarians weren't nujobs.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
General Mung Beans
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-04-17 10:47pm
Location: Orange Prefecture, California Sector, America Quadrant, Terra

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by General Mung Beans »

Dalton wrote:
General Mung Beans wrote:
Dalton wrote:It's most certainly an aberration, given the Tea Party's record on same-sex marriage and gay rights. They don't give a shit about civil liberties. Fuck them.
As others have said, the Tea Party is not a monolithic bloc and has mainly concerned itself with economic issues. They include both traditional social conservatives and libertarians and the latter faction do include large amounts of people who are opposed to both bills like the PATRIOT Act and bans on gay marriage and whatnot.
And how many of the latter are in Congress right now?
Ron Paul for one. And much of this is due to the lack of youth turnout in elections (who are more liberal on social issues and libertarian to boot) and the fact that the elderly and middle age have the heaviest turn out. For better or worse I expect within twenty years or so that Meghan McCain's political views concerning homosexual marriage will be the norm within the GOP.
El Moose Monstero: That would be the winning song at Eurovision. I still say the Moldovans were more fun. And that one about the Apricot Tree.
That said...it is growing on me.
Thanas: It is one of those songs that kinda get stuck in your head so if you hear it several times, you actually grow to like it.
General Zod: It's the musical version of Stockholm syndrome.
Zinegata
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2482
Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zinegata »

Huffington's conclusions and the poll they used to support it are weird.

The poll doesn't actually count the views of actual Tea Party members. They counted the views who strongly approve of the Tea Party movement - which consists of just 19% of the total people polled.

So all you can conclude with that article is that some segments of the population strongly support the Tea Party, and that these people are anti gay-marriage. However, again note: They approve of the Tea Party. No data is ever shown saying how these folks actually participate in the Tea Party or even vote for them.

It's carefully worded by Huffington, but it's looking to be a hack job and they're making conclusions that are several steps removed from the actual data.

Frankly, I'm really beginning to believe the idea that the actual Tea Party people aren't that crazy. The far left AND the far right just wants it to seem that crazy so they can exploit it for their own political talking points, and all the polls show is that their collective eforts are working.
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Samuel »

Ron Paul is a states righter for the most part. That is only compatible with liberalism in the same sense that popular sovernity is compatible with free soilers.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul120.html
Ron Paul wrote:Whether it's gun rights, abortion, taxes, racial quotas, environmental regulations, gay marriage, or religion, federal jurists are way out of touch with the American people. As a society we should reconsider the wisdom of lifetime tenure for federal judges, while Congress and the President should remember that the Supreme Court is supreme only over other federal courts — not over the other branches of government. It's time for the executive and legislative branches to show some backbone, appoint judges who follow the Constitution, and remove those who do not.
Zinegata wrote:So all you can conclude with that article is that some segments of the population strongly support the Tea Party, and believe it to be an avenue for their anti gay marriage agenda.

It's carefully worded by Huffington, but it's looking to be a hack job and they're making conclusions that are several steps removed from the actual data.
Self identification isn't enough?
Frankly, I'm really beginning to believe the idea that the actual Tea Party people aren't that crazy.
Can you produce a platform? Because from politicans who self identify, well just take a look
Michele Bachmann, founder of House Tea Party Caucus
-against same sex marriage. Thinks the gays are after our children.
Jim DeMint
-pro-life, pro-school prayer, anti-gay
Jan Brewer
-overturned previous law just to hurt gay people

So yeah, they are amazingly socially regressive.
Zinegata
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2482
Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zinegata »

Samuel wrote:Self identification isn't enough?
The poll did not have self-identification question. It asked whether they approved of the Tea Party.

So again, let's stop peddling outright lies, shall we? If it's a self-identification poll, then there should only be two possible states: They are Tea Party members, or they are not.

Not several levels of approval/disapproval for the Tea Party, one of which is "I don't know who they are".
Can you produce a platform?
Can you stop throwing up smokescreens to cover up the fact that you're lying?

As already noted, Ron Paul - one of the guys actually elected - does actually have a pro gay marriage agenda. The Tea Party sided with the Dems on the Patriot Act repeals. There's again lots of evidence to show that Tea Partiers do, in fact, support civil liberties.

Now, do they all support civil liberties? No they don't. We know of some idiot Tea Party members. But all that shows is that they do in fact have a pretty disjointed platform - a consequence of them not being a monolithic or national party like the Democrats/Republicans. So saying "Can you show a platform" is not only a useless question. It's a loaded question that betrays either outright irrational bias or a complete obliviousness to some very real facts about the movement.

So citing three people - one of which is a Republican and not actually a Tea Party member (Jan Brewer) - who are anti-gay does not make the case that Tea Partiers are against CIvil Liberties.

What it does show is that there are plenty of idiots using false data to paint the Tea Party as a bunch of social regressives for their own political talking points.

Which you have just done in abundance - by claiming the poll is self-identifying (it wasn't) and citing Jan Brewer as a Tea Party member when she isn't even one.

Again, it's easy to hate, but it's painful to admit when the data shows that the people you demonize aren't that bad and you've been exaggerating the problem for your own personal gratification.

As people here also mentioned, Libertarians were actually for civil liberties. I think they're still there, it's just that idiots on both sides are trying to push the TP into the "looney regressives camp" for their own political gain and that the voices of moderation are being drowned out.
User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4260
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by loomer »

What the fuck is a Tea Party member? There is no actual tea party. You don't sign up and run as a Tea Party candidate. Half of them ARE republicans (the entire Tea Party House Caucus, for instance), you dipshit, and Jan Brewer is considered to be a part of the Tea Party movement - fuck, even the ever political Wikipedia lists her as part of it.

As for Ron Paul being pro-Gay marriage... Want to cite a source on that, you mouthbreathing fuck? And don't claim the Stossel interview is proof, it doesn't hold up to his consistent efforts to prevent federal recognition of gay marriage.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
Zinegata
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2482
Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zinegata »

*yawn*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement
The Tea Party movement has caucuses in the House of Representatives and the Senate of the United States.[13] The Tea Party movement has no central leadership but is composed of a loose affiliation of national and local groups that determine their own platforms and agendas.
If you're a member of one of these groups, then you're an actual Tea Party member. If you merely approve of the Tea Party, that doesn't automatically mean you're a Tea Party member. You could even be a Democrat who strongly approves of it because your Libertarian buddies are part of a local group that's affiliated with it. Or maybe a Democrat who happens to like grassroots politics.

Again: Approval and self-identification are two different things. A Republican can approve of Obama. A Democrat can strongly approve Pro-Life. But it doesn't change that they identify themselves as Republicans/Democrats.

So really, all you're doing is to further prove the point that there are a lot of idiots who don't know what the Tea Party actually is, but are grabbing every possible straw to demonize it for political gain.

[Re: Ron Paul - ask Myung. But really, even if Ron Paul's not really a gay marriage person, the OP's whole article shows point-blank that segments of the Tea Party do, in fact, support Civil Liberties to some extent.]

------

BTW, about the whole line of reasoning that Tea Party = Regressive Republicans in disguise...
An October 2010 Washington Post canvass of local Tea Party organizers found 87% saying "dissatisfaction with mainstream Republican Party leaders" was "an important factor in the support the group has received so far".
When they asked actual Tea Party organizers, it shows that there was actually huge disapproval for the current Republican leadership. Again - even though lots of Tea Party folks are also Republicans, it doesn't automatically mean they approve of Republicans. Approval is not the same as identification.

And this same poll actually jives far more with what Thanas' article was trying to say - the Tea Party is actually a discontented portion of the Republican party. It's disjointed, but it includes elements that are for civil liberties and are tired of current Republican policies - regressive social policies possibly among them. Unless you people want to start claiming that the Republicans aren't actually that socially regressive, but seriously I've stopped believing the far left can ever give conservatives a fair shake.

(And sure, the Tea Party also includes some Nazi wannabes. Disjointed party and all that. But why bother mentioning it when lots of far left-wing idiots will seriously gloss over me mentioning this anyway and go "WAAAAH! Zine is a meanie who doesn't think the Tea Party are ALL Nazi Wannabes". Fucking whiners)

--------

By contrast, the Huffington poll was trash. Sure, if you make certain unproven assumptions you can conclude that Tea Party = Social Regressives.

But in reality, all the poll is really saying is that "Social regressives approve of the Tea Party movement".

So can't these same social regressives just be a bunch of idiots who don't understand what the Tea Party actually is? They are supposedly idiots after all. This is also a conclusion that is totally supported by the Huffington poll, and requires no assumptions other than "Social regressives are idiots".
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Samuel »

Zinegata wrote:As already noted, Ron Paul - one of the guys actually elected - does actually have a pro gay marriage agenda.
You do realize the quote I posted (the one where he recommends sacking judges because they are pro-gay marriage) is from an article where he talks about his views on the Lawrence case. Namely, he opposed the Supreme Court's actions decriminalizing sodomy on the grounds of the right to privacy. He believes that such things should be left to the states. I'm not sure how screwing over minorities to the tyranny of the majority can be considered pro-minority.
The Tea Party sided with the Dems on the Patriot Act repeals.
Yeah, this is in no way because they feel it would be used against them. These people are nuts- Michele Bachmann introduced a bill to prevent the dollar from being replaced by any foreign currency. They probably feel internal controls would be used against them.
But all that shows is that they do in fact have a pretty disjointed platform - a consequence of them not being a monolithic or national party like the Democrats/Republicans.
The Democrats and Republicans are monolithic... yeah. The Republican party has the log cabin members and evangelicals. I wouldn't call any national party monolithic. But please, show a case where the tea party supported civil liberties that can't be explained on them trying to remove the governments ability to crack down on them as part of the new world order.
Which you have just done in abundance - by claiming the poll is self-identifying (it wasn't)
My mistake. I'm not sure how this would have an impact. People who approve of a group tend to be very closely tied to said group. However, yet another poll which shows the same thing.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010 ... html#tab=0
Interestingly they tend to be better educated than average.
When they asked actual Tea Party organizers, it shows that there was actually huge disapproval for the current Republican leadership.
... it said the dissatisfaction was "an important factor in the support the group has received so far". So the reason they got support was because 87% of them were feed up with Republican leadership.
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22640
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Dalton »

General Mung Beans wrote:
Dalton wrote:And how many of the latter are in Congress right now?
Ron Paul for one.
Really. Ron Paul is not a member of the Congressional Tea Party Caucus, so I fail to see how it applies in this case.
General Mung Beans wrote:And much of this is due to the lack of youth turnout in elections (who are more liberal on social issues and libertarian to boot) and the fact that the elderly and middle age have the heaviest turn out. For better or worse I expect within twenty years or so that Meghan McCain's political views concerning homosexual marriage will be the norm within the GOP.
Not at the rate we're going. Like it or not, the whole Tea Party movement has been co-opted by right-wing conservatives (Michele Bachmann, Jim DeMint, Mike Pence, Rand Paul, Mike Lee, Jerry Moran, Pete Sessions, etc. etc. etc.) who are against gay marriage.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
Zinegata
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2482
Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zinegata »

Samuel wrote:My mistake. I'm not sure how this would have an impact. People who approve of a group tend to be very closely tied to said group. However, yet another poll which shows the same thing.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010 ... html#tab=0
Interestingly they tend to be better educated than average.
Pretty huge impact. Your original poll and the NYT poll in fact have completely the opposite conclusions.

The Huffington poll implies that the Tea Partiers are anti civil liberties - much more so than the regular Republican.

Yet the NYT poll shows that actual Tea Party members believe that the goal of the party is overwhelmingly to reduce government spending (45%). There is in fact no mention of "Let's kill gays" or anything like that - except possibly for a miniscule 7% who believe that the Tea Party shouldn't be primarily concerned with economic/government power issues, and a 3% who "don't know and don't care".

Huffington is trying to claim Tea Party members are anti-civil liberties. Their poll fails. The NYT poll shows that the Tea Party members are concerned primarily with government power and spending, plus economic concerns. That still fails to tie it to an anti civil liberties agenda.

(Note: The NYT article valiantly tries to imply that Tea Partiers seem to be anti-black, because many Tea Partiers are disatisfied towards Obama and feel his policies are unfair towards whites. But when you look at the actual questions in the poll and issues, the concern is actually on the health care reform, the economy, and the deficit. Not race. Which is again annoying conjecture on NYT's part that's several steps removed from the actual data)
... it said the dissatisfaction was "an important factor in the support the group has received so far". So the reason they got support was because 87% of them were feed up with Republican leadership.
"Fed up with the Republican leadership" is pretty much synonymous with "DIsapprove the current leadership."

Which again shows that just because you support a movement (the Huffington poll), you aren't necessarily its members.

So again, what do all of the polls really show? The Tea Party is a disaffected segment of the Republican Party, primarily over the issue of government power and spending. That is it. Anything beyond that is conjecture.

So let's go to conjecture. Is part of is being co-opted by the radical right? Certainly. Otherwise Palin wouldn't be so prominent in the movemet.

But that doesn't invalidate the point in the OP's article - that it also represents an opportunity to find folks who can be co-opted to promote the cause of civil liberties. Because they did in fact vote against the Patriot Act. Now, you can claim that it's because they're being NIMBY about it, but again, these last two paragraphs are entirely conjecture anyway. Until you drill it down to individual Tea Party folks you're probably not gonna get an answer.

Parties, as you've admitted, are not black and white. And the Tea Party is no different.
Zinegata
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2482
Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am

Re: Liberal&Tea Party alliance - last hope for civil liberti

Post by Zinegata »

Caveat: NYT did actually sample how the folks felt about the government treated blacks, so my last comment...
But when you look at the actual questions in the poll and issues, the concern is actually on the health care reform, the economy, and the deficit. Not race. Which is again annoying conjecture on NYT's part that's several steps removed from the actual data)
Was in error. The Tea Partiers are primarily concerned with government size/economy, and there may be an undercurrent against blacks that's supported by the data. However, it's worth noting that they're not actually calling for the removal of civil liberties. It's more of "We feel Obama is unfair to white folk".

Finally, good on NYT in catching the inherent contradictions of the movement... and how people may not actually necessarily understand what they're supporting in the Tea Party.
Post Reply