Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF)

[Batman]

Would pretty much surprise me.
And Maul wasn't toying with Ob-Wan when he got offed. He didn't have time for it. The guy got killed within seconds of Obi-Wan jumping out of the shaft.

[Jim Raynor]

Yeah I can see you're just here to troll now.

Oh, yes, internet forum debate strategy #2 - cry troll right after #1 which is call the person a stupid something or other.

So ronindave reverts back to the short, spammy, no-substance posts. Nothing but insults and denial. Don't think that I don't notice how you're not responding to any actual points in this latest post of yours.

I showed quite clearly that the vast majority of the RLM review's points about the movie were completely ignorant and dumb.

The only thing you showed clearly was how you missed the point by miles. The nitpicks of RLM vs your nitpicks are very different in nature. RLM's nitpicks were often used to show symptoms of the overall problem with the prequel series. Your nitpicks were often just that nitpicks that served little purpose except to give you a chance to call RLM stupid.

You are right in saying that I am very different from Stoklasa. Stoklasa repeatedly nitpicked a movie over things that had nothing to do with this mythical "main point" that his apologists keep referring to; nitpicks which demonstrated his ignorance over numerous subjects ranging from the movie to real life.

My supposed "nitpicks" were in fact direct rebuttals of what he said, with the quotes and evidence to back it up.

So if people are convinced by that, then it doesn't speak very highly of themselves.

You're such a cornball

[/quote]

Way to prove my troll accusation wrong.

[Jim Raynor]

But tirelessly defending the speed running seems strange to me.

I'm not "tirelessly" defending the speed thing though. I hold the SW movies to it like I hold it to the Jedi's telekinesis. Hardly anyone cares, and there are easy explanations for why it's not used all the time.

...Not that it matters anyway. As I said several times already, Obi-Wan took a kick in the face and slammed into a hard surface dozens of feet below him. Damage that could kill or cripple a normal human. Would you regard a minute of down time as sufficient enough to fully recover from any hits you take, or energy you expend?

If I'm a Jedi, yes. But if super speed wasn't in the script at all this wouldn't be a probem.

So you're making assumptions about the minutia of how the Jedi powers work. You think Obi-Wan, who had already engaged in combat and taken a few hard bumps, must have been able to pull off a feat that he demonstrated just once, for a couple of seconds at most, when he was much fresher.

It doesn't bother me because telekinesis is constantly used in both trilogies,

Which makes it worse IMO. TK seems to be pulled off much more than a seconds-long speed burst, yet the Jedi don't use throughout most of their fights.

EDIT:

Consider me embarrassed. Tell me the clear explanation for what or who the TF are, from the movie. Judging by the amount of debate on this thread no one seems to know. RLM point is that if your central conflict is going to be an invasion it tends to help to know what that invasion is about other than bad guys vs good guys.

They're a greedy group that relies on trade, and has an army to back up their interests. Simple. The general audience does not give a crap about hashing out the little details.

And I believe I pointed out examples of RLM's embarassingly dumb points. Stuff like speculating that the Trade Fed is a government agency of the Republic enforcing legitimate tax laws, or arguing that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were "making shit up" when they were trying to persuade the Gungans to help deal with the invasion...after almost being killed and seeing the invasion happen. Stuff like that is absolutely ridiculous, and shows that the people who liked the RLM review either weren't paying any attention, or weren't smart enough to smell the BS.

[Jim Raynor]

The main point has to be EVERYTHING he talks about? Your not smart enough to see the obvious?

Stop being deliberately dense. That was one of Stoklasa's dumbest, but most frequently used methods. Again, if someone argues that the RLM has some profound "main point," then I would expect a signficant portion of that review to be backing up that "main point."

When I see that the vast majority of the review is a disjointed mass of dumb nitpicks, including such relevant arguments as:
-Arguing that Qui-Gon didn't have reason to believe there was an invasion, after seeing it and almost being killed himself
-Bizarrely claiming that Sidious should have told the Trade Fed to screw themselves over for no reward
-Nitpicking the minutia of a few laser shot visuals, even as those exact visuals refute what he's saying
-Acting up and intentionally stuttering like a dork for minutes on end without making any actual point
-Bashing the characters' choices even as he suggests idiotic Rambo tactics of his own
-Acting like a conspiracy weirdo and claiming that he sees "terror" and "mistrust" in LFL employees, basically being a scumbag and slinging mud on Lucas's personal and professional relationships without any actual evidence

etc, then I'm not going to accept that I've somehow missed some awesome "main point" of his.

Actually in all seriousness, the nitpicking is more about giving the people who watch his reviews some form of entertainment to his audience, in the context of his character, Mr. Plinkett. At least that's my guess.

So it's lowbrow humor for people who can't sort out his bullcrap. Gotcha.

All the jedi are pretty brave, so what?

And all the Jedi are narrow-minded conformists, who are shown to be very different than Qui-Gon.

As far as him standing up for what he believes in, that's only a small portion of the movie, and doesn't really affect the outcome of the main plot,

Qui-Gon standing up for his belief in Anakin and eventually getting the kid trained, despite the Council's original opposition, doesn't affect the main plot. Really?

[Darth Tedious]

And Maul wasn't toying with Ob-Wan when he got offed. He didn't have time for it. The guy got killed within seconds of Obi-Wan jumping out of the shaft.

But as Obi-Wan was hanging, he screwed about making sparks with his lightsaber instead of cutting his hands/fingers right off (which he could have easily done). That was the 'toying' I was referring to.

[Havok]

Obi-Wan was very skilled with a lightsaber. It was clear he had surpassed Qui-Gon in that respect.

Even frustrated and relying on his anger as he was, he was still able to give Maul a run for his money. However, he just couldn't stay focused doing it that way and Maul got the upper hand knocking him into the pit.

Maul then took up the classic villain past time of gloating. But like I said, it was Obi-Wan composing himself and refocusing that allowed him to beat Maul. Look at what Obi-Wan did: Without being able to see it, he located Qui-Gon's lightsaber and was able to direct it to the exact spot it needed to be so that he could make a Maulkabob, while jumping at least 15-20 feet in the air from a spot with no foot hold. Basically he flew out of the hole. That is the most complicated, multi-faceted feat we saw any Jedi accomplish in the movies.

[Vympel]

Further, note the look of complete bewilderment on Maul's face as to what Obi-Wan was doing. Obi-Wan calmed down, went deep into the Force, and Maul's own precognition failed him.

[Darth Tedious]

Maul then took up the classic villain past time of gloating. But like I said, it was Obi-Wan composing himself and refocusing that allowed him to beat Maul. Look at what Obi-Wan did: Without being able to see it, he located Qui-Gon's lightsaber and was able to direct it to the exact spot it needed to be so that he could make a Maulkabob, while jumping at least 15-20 feet in the air from a spot with no foot hold. Basically he flew out of the hole. That is the most complicated, multi-faceted feat we saw any Jedi accomplish in the movies.

Maul really shouldn't have gloated.

But I totally agree, it is by far the most intense usage of Force in the movies, given the amount of combined factors involved.
Could Obi-Wan's feat have used some measure of precog, looking into the future to judge how to put the whole sequence together? This would raise serious questions about the nature of Jedi precognative ability.

[ronindave]

Killing Maul much less attacking him at the get-go was always a problem for me because they and more importantly we the audience never found out anything about him. Here the Jedi are confronted with what they think is a possible Sith not too mention the one that attacked them on Tatooine. What is he doing with the Trade Fed? That should have been their tip off that there was more going on but instead they let 10 years slide without really looking into the matter.

Qui-Gon or Obi-wan should have at least said "Who are you?" They had time when Qui-Gon was meditating. Even if Maul just snarled, at least they tried

[nygma619]

Stop being deliberately dense. That was one of Stoklasa's dumbest, but most frequently used methods. Again, if someone argues that the RLM has some profound "main point," then I would expect a signficant portion of that review to be backing up that "main point."

Well you seem to be the only one who DOESN'T get it. He constantly mentions how bored he is of the characters, the plot, the acting, the dialogue, and the stupid ass kid. But since you think everything has to focus on ONE THING that automatically makes him wrong and you right.

When I see that the vast majority of the review is a disjointed mass of dumb nitpicks, including such relevant arguments as:
-Arguing that Qui-Gon didn't have reason to believe there was an invasion, after seeing it and almost being killed himself
-Bizarrely claiming that Sidious should have told the Trade Fed to screw themselves over for no reward
-Nitpicking the minutia of a few laser shot visuals, even as those exact visuals refute what he's saying
-Acting up and intentionally stuttering like a dork for minutes on end without making any actual point
-Bashing the characters' choices even as he suggests idiotic Rambo tactics of his own
-Acting like a conspiracy weirdo and claiming that he sees "terror" and "mistrust" in LFL employees, basically being a scumbag and slinging mud on Lucas's personal and professional relationships without any actual evidence

etc, then I'm not going to accept that I've somehow missed some awesome "main point" of his.

Oh my God, you are a fucking annoying whiner. And you call THAT being a scumbag? Oh no, calling George Lucas a pedophile like someone did elsewhere http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/reviews. ... enace.html would make him a scumbag. Also a few of those aren't even about the nitpicks and is just you whining about the satire aspects.

Also I said that I thought you made many valid points, and I never said RLM's review was perfect. I don't think either of your reviews are without flaws.
For example I thought you brought up some good points on the plan of the trade federation and the stuff with the treaty. Though I still don't agree with you on not showing WHY they are following Sideous's orders when they seem capable on their own, if they actually used their noggins. Also I didn't agree with you on stuff like why didn't Qui-Gon just go to another junk dealer to use his jedi mind trick (or at least do the leg work to find out if Watto was lying or not),or trading their ship for a less fancy but functional one (Watto even offers), or paying a smuggler to help them. Which the Jedi PROTECTING the queen would be useful in.

Also something you both left out was Qui-Gon stupidly going ahead with making a bet AFTER it's revealed that Anakin never finished a pod race. He never did anything to find out if Anakin was any good or not. And I didn't buy Anakin going from not finishing to winning for one God Damn minute. That and seeing him save the day in the most NON-believable manner, made me want to see somebody kill the litttle snot. So sorry if that little SHIT was an insult to my intelligence and alot of other peoples as well.

So it's lowbrow humor for people who can't sort out his bullcrap. Gotcha.

That's just your opinion, and really your condescending bullshit I'm more holier than thou attitude is getting old. One would think you've never seen an episode of South Park before based on your responses.

And all the Jedi are narrow-minded conformists, who are shown to be very different than Qui-Gon.

Well they can't be THAT narrow-minded since they went ahead with him being trained, by someone who was just MADE into a jedi knight, and not someone who's had more experience as a jedi knight. Oh wait...
He still talks in the same stilted and boring manner that the rest of them do. Not to mention he has the same dull dialogue, facial expressions, voice range, and emotional range as the rest of the Jedi (or majority of the actors in the prequels for that matter). Though I'd say Liam Neeson fared a little better than the others, but not by much. And if Qui-Gon was played by anyone else less talented, I think he would've been just as forgettable as the rest of the characters/cast IMO.

Qui-Gon standing up for his belief in Anakin and eventually getting the kid trained, despite the Council's original opposition, doesn't affect the main plot. Really?

No it doesn't. It has no bearing on anything that's going to help the Naboo one way or another, nor does it have ANY bearing on Palpatine's scheme of advancing himself politically.

Also for someone who spends alot of time claiming that Mike Stoklasa (because using his real name instead of Harry S. Plinkett is really edgy ) doesn't pick up on subtlety very well, you seem to spend ALOT of time wanting him to spell the main points out for you.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Being composed has nothing to do with the martial skill of either Qui-Gon or Maul. Nice try there though. Maybe one day you will learn how to actually asses an argument and properly respond to it.

You just said Obi-Wan couldn't beat maul until he composed himself and now it has nothing to do with how well they fight?

Wow. I, mean, really? You do know that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn are different characters correct? Have you seen the movie?

OK. Let me break this down for you. Obi-Wan completely lost his composure as he kept getting handled by Maul. He got more angry and more frustrated as the fight went on.

Qui-Gon (a different character) maintained his composure through out the fight. However, he did not posses the skill to defeat Maul on his own. He kept his cool the whole time, yet his fighting skill was not equal to Maul's.

Once, Obi-Wan regained his composure his skill was sufficient to beat Maul.

You get it now? All things being equal Qui-Gon < Maul < Obi-Wan. When Obi-Wan was channeling his anger, not being composed and losing his cool, Obi-Wan < Maul.

These are themes designed for little kids to be able to figure out. It says a lot about your intelligence (and perhaps your own age) that you need it broken down and explained to you.

Or maybe it was Maul who was too composed since he feeds off of emotion. Would a sufficiently rage filled Maul be greater than a composed Obi-Wan? You obviously have the rating system down, what about a sad yoda vs a really exacerbated Dooku?

Did you know according to your logic Erik Marales is a better fighter than Manny Paquiow because of one victory?

It seemed like Maul was more than able to handle a composed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the start of their fight. Obi-wan's win seems like it came more down to luck... or that the screenplay called for him to win.

All this debate just to defend Obi-Wan's non use of super speed. It's just amazing to me.

As a side note please reply with something about my inability to argue or reading comprehension.

Do I really need to restate the obvious, again?

It's the only way I know you still care.

So in response to me asking you to show where I agree with you over Raynor, you post me specifically saying that I didn't even comment on it, let alone agree one way or the other. Congratulations, you have taken your place among some of the dumbest people to ever attempt to argue on this board.

I wish I could take that honor, but it's difficult to surpass a master. I'm but a padawan to your yoda.

Assuming doesn't fly around here. I doubt you will be around long enough to figure that out though. I accept you concession on the point and admittance of lying.

I'm pretty sure this thread has an entire flock of assumptions flying all over the place. But I see that you're starting to finally get the game so I return the honor and thank you again for not committing one way or the other and by default (allegedly) agreeing with me!

[Darth Tedious]

And you call THAT being a scumbag? Oh no, calling George Lucas a pedophile like someone did elsewhere http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/reviews. ... enace.html would make him a scumbag.

Wow, just wow.

Good, good! Let the hate flow through you.

I'm surprised this guy didn't go so far as to say that everytime someone watches TPM, a kitten dies of cancer.

People here could have a field day with Jonny's '95 Theses against TPM'!

As for Qui-Gon not being the smartest- to be fair he was pretty much the worst Jedi ever.

[Havok]

You just said Obi-Wan couldn't beat maul until he composed himself and now it has nothing to do with how well they fight?

Wow. I, mean, really? You do know that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn are different characters correct? Have you seen the movie?

OK. Let me break this down for you. Obi-Wan completely lost his composure as he kept getting handled by Maul. He got more angry and more frustrated as the fight went on.

Qui-Gon (a different character) maintained his composure through out the fight. However, he did not posses the skill to defeat Maul on his own. He kept his cool the whole time, yet his fighting skill was not equal to Maul's.

Once, Obi-Wan regained his composure his skill was sufficient to beat Maul.

You get it now? All things being equal Qui-Gon < Maul < Obi-Wan. When Obi-Wan was channeling his anger, not being composed and losing his cool, Obi-Wan < Maul.

These are themes designed for little kids to be able to figure out. It says a lot about your intelligence (and perhaps your own age) that you need it broken down and explained to you.

Or maybe it was Maul who was too composed since he feeds off of emotion. Would a sufficiently rage filled Maul be greater than a composed Obi-Wan? You obviously have the rating system down, what about a sad yoda vs a really exacerbated Dooku?

Did you know according to your logic Erik Marales is a better fighter than Manny Paquiow because of one victory?

It seemed like Maul was more than able to handle a composed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the start of their fight. Obi-wan's win seems like it came more down to luck... or that the screenplay called for him to win.

All this debate just to defend Obi-Wan's non use of super speed. It's just amazing to me.

As a side note please reply with something about my inability to argue or reading comprehension.

Do I really need to restate the obvious, again?

It's the only way I know you still care.

So in response to me asking you to show where I agree with you over Raynor, you post me specifically saying that I didn't even comment on it, let alone agree one way or the other. Congratulations, you have taken your place among some of the dumbest people to ever attempt to argue on this board.

I wish I could take that honor, but it's difficult to surpass a master. I'm but a padawan to your yoda.

Assuming doesn't fly around here. I doubt you will be around long enough to figure that out though. I accept you concession on the point and admittance of lying.

I'm pretty sure this thread has an entire flock of assumptions flying all over the place. But I see that you're starting to finally get the game so I return the honor and thank you again for not committing one way or the other and by default (allegedly) agreeing with me!

"Ha ha ha. See you agreed with me again!!" That is your entire post. Next time just say that. That is all anything you have said has amounted to. And my fucking gawd, your sad attempts to try to parrot the personality of this board are just pathetic. Just stop tryhard. I feel bad for you.

[Metahive]

Meh, the "superheroes forgetting about their supposed superpowers" thing is something that came into being the moment the first superhero was conceived of. I personally treat the display of force speed by Obi Wan and Qui Gon onboard the TF ship as a continuity error and simply say that there's no such thing as force speed in the movieverse. Saves me having to rationalize way too many scenes where it would have come in handy but was left unused.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Dude, I'm being lenient on you by the standards of the internet overall. There are plenty of places where they'd have jumped straight to calling you a fat autistic the second you set finger to keyboard. I started with a little aside about how idiotic it was to take this so goddamned seriously. You replied by trying to turn it back, implicitly treating sunlight like a negative. I decided that if you wanted to sling back, then by gum, I'd oblige you. Now, you're complaining about how mean I am and taking things literally while complaining that I'm taking things too literally.

Oh I know the internet is an awful place, but there are a lot of people on this thread with a big glass house. I like nerd debates, but I find it rather amusing on this board how arrogant everyone is about what amounts to Space Wizards and the made up "laws" that govern them. I try to just make fun of points people make, I'm sure I occasionally slip into a personal attack but I try not too. I find it amusing when people get so upset when someone starts fucking with back after they start insulting. (see Havok)

Or is this your idea of a joke?

So yeah. I guess kind of.

Monkey cheese garbage is where people will throw out "random" phrases for humor. Key signs include inappropriate exclamation marks, a giddy tone overall, etc. You verged on the line for a little bit there, but now you're back on the school playground again, judging from your masterful responses.

If that's the definition then... maybe. I don't think my phrases were random or "random" although i do use ironic exclamation points, I wouldn't say they're inappropriate though.

It was established that Luke couldn't lift the X-Wing, however Obi-Wan could speed run so your point is still moot. I went into more detail about the semantics of what I meant about the unlimited/limited argument. Jim and I will agree to disagree, but I conceded the point. Watch what I do on the next response.

"Size matters not", buddy. Yoda expected him to be able to lift the X-wing, clearly he could do so, and a human weighs so much less than an X-wing anyhow. The larger point that I'm trying to make with this is that such criticisms are generally stupid. They focus on minor elements of the film, which are themselves not really that bad. In this case, there are not only parallels, but the scene that introduces superspeed has it tucked away in the background. Bringing it up in the conclusion would be more out of place, since it would seem to come from nowhere.

To me that's all the more reason to not want to see it in the film. It's tucked away, in no other movie in the trilogy is it used. It's an abnormality that draws attention because of that, you're right I don't want to see it at the end of the movie. I like that fight and I like the idea of the energy fields but then I think back to that tucked away thing and I get annoyed that I ever saw it because now Obi-Wan is not doing everything in his power to save his friend. TPM is full of moments like that for me, that's why I dislike it and enjoy the RLM. I just don't understand the defense of the super speed, it feels like apologetics.

We may just have to agree to disagree. Personal preference.

But it's pretty much irrelevant anyhow, much like how in The Blues Brothers, the tax money doesn't come into play after the opening until the final chase scene.

True but it does resolve the tax aspect and you know what everyone has gained or lost by it. TPM never resolves the dispute

For an even more ambiguous macguffin, we go to Pulp Fiction's famous briefcase, where the briefcase's contents are never revealed or even hinted at beyond the glow and "it's beautiful." Nobody would say that Pulp Fiction is a bad movie because you never get to see inside the briefcase, and I don't think that condemning The Phantom Menace.

It doesn't matter what in the brief case, it's expensive and rare and people want it. Knowing the tax route depute would add depth to the characters in TPM. Motivations would be clearer, we might know why the TF follows sidous beyond they are bad guys and the plot needs them too. Knowing what's inside the case doesn't make motivations any clearer in Pulp fiction because there is more than enough character development around the mcguffin.

The second part- well, here's why I continue to insult you, but will probably tone it down a little. You see, it's possible for someone to say that TPM was a bad movie, and still find criticism of it to be unwarranted or ignorant or uninformed. The mindset behind the alternative is frankly frightening. It is what underlies the efforts to shut down criticism of the PATRIOT Act and any dissent in the USA- the idea of the black-and-white worldview. So I find it annoying on an interpersonal level, but disturbing overall for the implications it has had in the world. And I do not assume that people compartmentalize such worldviews a priori (or at all really, unless I know them well enough). So while I thought initially that you were doing that out of hostility, I see that you are sincere.

You can feel free to continue insulting at least now we won't get mired down in the minutia of vitamin d and you'll have a better idea of why I'm cheese banana farting at you. We all want criticism to be warranted, that's why I goaded you on about the personal attacks. You seem like a smart enough guy with good points. Seemed beneath you to call someone a basement dweller (also that insult just felt hacky).

So are you guys cool with rifftrax? (real question... not a monkey cheesing)

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

But tirelessly defending the speed running seems strange to me.

I'm not "tirelessly" defending the speed thing though. I hold the SW movies to it like I hold it to the Jedi's telekinesis. Hardly anyone cares, and there are easy explanations for why it's not used all the time.

I'd just rather it not be in a movie where it could be used in such a specific moment. The fact that it's never used at any other time in any starwars movie makes it feel like someone just forgot to cut it out of the script.

...Not that it matters anyway. As I said several times already, Obi-Wan took a kick in the face and slammed into a hard surface dozens of feet below him. Damage that could kill or cripple a normal human. Would you regard a minute of down time as sufficient enough to fully recover from any hits you take, or energy you expend?

If I'm a Jedi, yes. But if super speed wasn't in the script at all this wouldn't be a probem.

So you're making assumptions about the minutia of how the Jedi powers work. You think Obi-Wan, who had already engaged in combat and taken a few hard bumps, must have been able to pull off a feat that he demonstrated just once, for a couple of seconds at most, when he was much fresher.

To save his master. Yes. If I could lift a car and my dad was trapped under one you better believe I'd try to lift it even if Ray Park had kicked me in the face a minute before.

It doesn't bother me because telekinesis is constantly used in both trilogies,

Which makes it worse IMO. TK seems to be pulled off much more than a seconds-long speed burst, yet the Jedi don't use throughout most of their fights.

I'm just going to reqoute my last post:
To me that's all the more reason to not want to see it in the film. It's tucked away, in no other movie in the trilogy is it used. It's an abnormality that draws attention because of that, you're right I don't want to see it at the end of the movie. I like that fight and I like the idea of the energy fields but then I think back to that tucked away thing and I get annoyed that I ever saw it because now Obi-Wan is not doing everything in his power to save his friend. TPM is full of moments like that for me, that's why I dislike it and enjoy the RLM. I just don't understand the defense of the super speed, it feels like apologetics.

Consider me embarrassed. Tell me the clear explanation for what or who the TF are, from the movie. Judging by the amount of debate on this thread no one seems to know. RLM point is that if your central conflict is going to be an invasion it tends to help to know what that invasion is about other than bad guys vs good guys.

They're a greedy group that relies on trade, and has an army to back up their interests. Simple. The general audience does not give a crap about hashing out the little details.

And I believe I pointed out examples of RLM's embarassingly dumb points. Stuff like speculating that the Trade Fed is a government agency of the Republic enforcing legitimate tax laws, or arguing that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were "making shit up" when they were trying to persuade the Gungans to help deal with the invasion...after almost being killed and seeing the invasion happen. Stuff like that is absolutely ridiculous, and shows that the people who liked the RLM review either weren't paying any attention, or weren't smart enough to smell the BS.

Or they don't care, because he followed it up with a joke about space taxes going to obama. I actually liked your speculation on if they were the tax enforcers, say the TF is the IRS and naboo hasn't paid up, but they still need legal clearance to invade. That works just a well as TF is holding a nation planet hostage because they don't like being taxed. Knowing either one of those reasons would help backstory, character motivations, general understanding of the republic government. My main point being with some simple rewrites all these could be fixed.

I don't think the qui-gon making shit up is very defense-able. The main complaint I have about that scene is the accents and jar jar binks. Although the planet core is a head scratcher, I'm pretty sure he literally meant planet core if Lucas meant to imply a scary place the podunks are afraid of he should have called it something else.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Meh, the "superheroes forgetting about their supposed superpowers" thing is something that came into being the moment the first superhero was conceived of. I personally treat the display of force speed by Obi Wan and Qui Gon onboard the TF ship as a continuity error and simply say that there's no such thing as force speed in the movieverse. Saves me having to rationalize way too many scenes where it would have come in handy but was left unused.

Thank you. That's the response I've been waiting for. I was beginning to feel like a sane person in an insane world here.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Or maybe it was Maul who was too composed since he feeds off of emotion. Would a sufficiently rage filled Maul be greater than a composed Obi-Wan? You obviously have the rating system down, what about a sad yoda vs a really exacerbated Dooku?

Did you know according to your logic Erik Marales is a better fighter than Manny Paquiow because of one victory?

It seemed like Maul was more than able to handle a composed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the start of their fight. Obi-wan's win seems like it came more down to luck... or that the screenplay called for him to win.

All this debate just to defend Obi-Wan's non use of super speed. It's just amazing to me.

So in response to me asking you to show where I agree with you over Raynor, you post me specifically saying that I didn't even comment on it, let alone agree one way or the other. Congratulations, you have taken your place among some of the dumbest people to ever attempt to argue on this board.

I wish I could take that honor, but it's difficult to surpass a master. I'm but a padawan to your yoda.

Assuming doesn't fly around here. I doubt you will be around long enough to figure that out though. I accept you concession on the point and admittance of lying.

I'm pretty sure this thread has an entire flock of assumptions flying all over the place. But I see that you're starting to finally get the game so I return the honor and thank you again for not committing one way or the other and by default (allegedly) agreeing with me!

"Ha ha ha. See you agreed with me again!!" That is your entire post. Next time just say that. That is all anything you have said has amounted to. And my fucking gawd, your sad attempts to try to parrot the personality of this board are just pathetic. Just stop tryhard. I feel bad for you.

Not the entire post, it's the end of each of my posts.

It only took you how many temper tantrums before you realized this? I think my favorite was:

I am going to ask you right now, to show exactly where I agreed with you over Raynor.

So demanding. I bet you felt good laying down the law like that. you were going to get to the bottom of this or people were going to pay. What? You're not going to try and get me thrown off the boards any more? Done puffing your big bad chest? Satisfied letting everyone know who has the big dick on the stardestroyer? That makes me sad. You might not be my favorite anymore.

Also thanks for agreeing that your logic means Erik Marales is a better fighter than Manny Paquiow because of one victory!

[Havok]

"Ha ha ha. See you agreed with me again!!" That is your entire post. Next time just say that. That is all anything you have said has amounted to. And my fucking gawd, your sad attempts to try to parrot the personality of this board are just pathetic. Just stop tryhard. I feel bad for you.

Not the entire post, it's the end of each of my posts.

It only took you how many temper tantrums before you realized this? I think my favorite was:

I am going to ask you right now, to show exactly where I agreed with you over Raynor.

So demanding. I bet you felt good laying down the law like that. you were going to get to the bottom of this or people were going to pay. What? You're not going to try and get me thrown off the boards any more? Done puffing your big bad chest? Satisfied letting everyone know who has the big dick on the stardestroyer? That makes me sad. You might not be my favorite anymore.

Also thanks for agreeing that your logic means Erik Marales is a better fighter than Manny Paquiow because of one victory!

Sad imbecile. If you try a little bit harder, you may eventually fit in here. Oh wait, I forgot about the imbecile part.

You freely admit that you have no argument and just keep repeating "You agree with me because you didn't argue about what I siad!! hur hur." Thanks again for the concession on the point. Oh, I forgot, concession means that you were wrong and are giving up.

And gawd no, I don't want you kicked off the board, I mean, you are going to do that to yourself because you can't argue your way out of a paper bag and have no idea what a logical fallacy is, but no, I want you to stick around as long as possible. Our new idiots just don't last long enough anymore. Especially not of your caliber.

And one more time just for good measure... "Ha ha you didn't comment on my stupid analogy so you must agree with me hur hur!!" You are awesome. I'd ask if it bothers you to be this stupid but you guys never seem to realize it. Go figure.

If you actually decide to make some sensible arguments, you can PM so that I can laugh at you for not actually doing it.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

"Ha ha ha. See you agreed with me again!!" That is your entire post. Next time just say that. That is all anything you have said has amounted to. And my fucking gawd, your sad attempts to try to parrot the personality of this board are just pathetic. Just stop tryhard. I feel bad for you.

Not the entire post, it's the end of each of my posts.

It only took you how many temper tantrums before you realized this? I think my favorite was:

I am going to ask you right now, to show exactly where I agreed with you over Raynor.

So demanding. I bet you felt good laying down the law like that. you were going to get to the bottom of this or people were going to pay. What? You're not going to try and get me thrown off the boards any more? Done puffing your big bad chest? Satisfied letting everyone know who has the big dick on the stardestroyer? That makes me sad. You might not be my favorite anymore.

Also thanks for agreeing that your logic means Erik Marales is a better fighter than Manny Paquiow because of one victory!

Sad imbecile. If you try a little bit harder, you may eventually fit in here. Oh wait, I forgot about the imbecile part.

You freely admit that you have no argument and just keep repeating "You agree with me because you didn't argue about what I siad!! hur hur." Thanks again for the concession on the point. Oh, I forgot, concession means that you were wrong and are giving up.

And gawd no, I don't want you kicked off the board, I mean, you are going to do that to yourself because you can't argue your way out of a paper bag and have no idea what a logical fallacy is, but no, I want you to stick around as long as possible. Our new idiots just don't last long enough anymore. Especially not of your caliber.

And one more time just for good measure... "Ha ha you didn't comment on my stupid analogy so you must agree with me hur hur!!" You are awesome. I'd ask if it bothers you to be this stupid but you guys never seem to realize it. Go figure.

If you actually decide to make some sensible arguments, you can PM so that I can laugh at you for not actually doing it.

I'm glad to know I'm your favorite as well! Who've thought romance could blossom in such a barren place.

But I understand it now. How did I miss it?

Look at what Obi-Wan did: Without being able to see it, he located Qui-Gon's lightsaber and was able to direct it to the exact spot it needed to be so that he could make a Maulkabob, while jumping at least 15-20 feet in the air from a spot with no foot hold. Basically he flew out of the hole. That is the most complicated, multi-faceted feat we saw any Jedi accomplish in the movies.

You think Jedi are real. You're talking about them like an analyst on ESPN would an athlete that made an impressive play. That is so adorable! I'm torn because part of me wants to let you know it's a movie, and explain that someone wrote, filmed and edited that "complicated, multifaceted feat" Someone who never gave it as much thought as you are right now. But the other part of me would hate to ruin the magic for you. That childlike wonder is a rare thing and I wouldn't want to take it from you.

It helps explain why you think we're having an argument about whether or not you support Raynor. It's still amusing that even this many posts later you find a way to spaz out about it. You never disappoint. Sadly though you've stopped even trying to refute my legitimate rebuttals. Just letting all that reading comprehension go to waste.

As always, thank you. I appreciate that you always find a way to support my arguments.

[seanrobertson]

You think Jedi are real. You're talking about them like an analyst on ESPN would an athlete that made an impressive play. That is so adorable! I'm torn because part of me wants to let you know it's a movie, and explain that someone wrote, filmed and edited that "complicated, multifaceted feat" Someone who never gave it as much thought as you are right now. But the other part of me would hate to ruin the magic for you. That childlike wonder is a rare thing and I wouldn't want to take it from you.

Much of this site is predicated on suspending disbelief in examining fiction.

Naturally, there are times we must recognize real-world influences in a production. But Obi-Wan outmaneuvering Maul isn't one of those times. Thus, "It's just a movie" and variations thereon are not viable counterarguments.

[Lagmonster]

You think Jedi are real. You're talking about them like an analyst on ESPN would an athlete that made an impressive play. That is so adorable! I'm torn because part of me wants to let you know it's a movie, and explain that someone wrote, filmed and edited that "complicated, multifaceted feat" Someone who never gave it as much thought as you are right now. But the other part of me would hate to ruin the magic for you. That childlike wonder is a rare thing and I wouldn't want to take it from you.

I don't give a shit about your argument or your opinion, but I AM here to make certain that you understand the rules of VS debating on this board.

Only a flaming retard would try to pretend that the movies are real, but when analysing a movie, if you want to have qualitative discussions about what you're seeing (and that's what we're doing here), the only sensible way to do so that everyone can agree on is via suspension of disbelief. The site founder wrote an essay explaining why, which you can read here.

So when you spend an entire post mocking Havok for following precisely the methodology that produces anything resembling a useful result, you're missing the fucking point, and people like me (whose volunteer job it is to make sure people are having the kind of fun that the board was designed for) have to come by and smack people like you for being a colossal dickhead.


Edit: And a special thank-you to sean, who beat me to it by a wide margin.

[TK421]

I don't know Mike Stoklasa or Jim Raynor and have never interacted with either of them, but in the few interviews I've read and one audio commentary I've heard with Stoklasa, he seems like a perfectly normal, non-scumbaggy dude when out of character. I find myself doing that confused dog thing and tilting my head to one side whenever I see person called names or people getting this seemingly bent out of shape over any movie review. Jim Raynor, unless he's in some sort of character here, seems really hostile. I've got to assume it's just an internet thing; it's easy to get carried away with this stuff online.

There's nothing wrong with liking the prequels and disliking RLM reviews and there's nothing wrong with liking RLM reviews and disliking the prequels. I happen to fall into the latter category. I'm not "dumb", or any of the other insults Jim has thrown around in his posts, I just happen to think those movies were pure shit and that the reviews were funny and made good points. No amount of in-universe explanations can change that the prequels just didn't work for me as films.

I liked the RLM reviews of Generations and First Contact and I liked both of those movies. But I'm under no illusions that those movies don't have flaws and I agreed with many of Plinkett's criticisms (and disagreed with some too). Something can have flaws and still be enjoyable, including movies and weird comedey internet movie reviews.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

You think Jedi are real. You're talking about them like an analyst on ESPN would an athlete that made an impressive play. That is so adorable! I'm torn because part of me wants to let you know it's a movie, and explain that someone wrote, filmed and edited that "complicated, multifaceted feat" Someone who never gave it as much thought as you are right now. But the other part of me would hate to ruin the magic for you. That childlike wonder is a rare thing and I wouldn't want to take it from you.

I don't give a shit about your argument or your opinion, but I AM here to make certain that you understand the rules of VS debating on this board.

Only a flaming retard would try to pretend that the movies are real, but when analysing a movie, if you want to have qualitative discussions about what you're seeing (and that's what we're doing here), the only sensible way to do so that everyone can agree on is via suspension of disbelief. The site founder wrote an essay explaining why, which you can read here.

So when you spend an entire post mocking Havok for following precisely the methodology that produces anything resembling a useful result, you're missing the fucking point, and people like me (whose volunteer job it is to make sure people are having the kind of fun that the board was designed for) have to come by and smack people like you for being a colossal dickhead.


Edit: And a special thank-you to sean, who beat me to it by a wide margin.

I had not seen the preferred method for debate, so I will try to adhere to it when responding to other threads. However, I don’t believe it applies here. The topic under discussion is the validity of RLM’s TPM review. RLM analysis covers aspects outside the world of the movie and Raynor’s rebuttal needs to take that into account (and sometimes it does). So when I’m talking about force super speed as it relates to the poor writing and directing of the film, Havok’s response of treating Jedi maneuvers/fighting ability as if they were real isn’t a valid counter argument.

This does help explain why so many here seem to have such a problem with RLM review. If you take the suspension of disbelief approach and try to merge it with an analysis of the film-making then of course you’ll end up with rebuttals like about how he’s a padawan and that should be enough. I guess I could have brought this to his attention in a less dickish way, but he responded like an asshole and I believe section 1 article 5 states posters should have a thick skin.

Out of respect to the moderators and section 3 article 3, I will refrain from purposefully antagonizing Havok any longer. So everyone can have an enjoyable time again. But just know, he and I now form a symbiant colossal dickheaded circle, what happens to one will surely affect the other.

[Darth Tedious]

But just know, he and I now form a symbiant colossal dickheaded circle, what happens to one will surely affect the other.

You guys should have a coliseum debate.