Shroud of the Dark Side

[PainRack]

It is propaganda to a point. It seems to only apply to certain species. IIRC, in one of the accompanying Visual Dictionaries for the prequels states that Plo Koon, can delve much further towards the "dark side" than a human Jedi could.

We've had this argument before. The Force is like a gun. It is neither evil or good. It is the intention of the usage that matters. Is a Jedi that uses Force Lightning to start spaceships with dead batteries really delving towards the dark side?

I don't think that argument was ever settled.
The problem is that the Force itself is seen with a living will in and as of itself. And the Jedi claim the Force influences their actions.

One can certainly argue for both ways, that Force Lightning is inherently destructive(WEG IIRC), or Zahn depiction of how using the Force to control thoughts was pushing the skirt of the Dark side.

[Havok]

There is the whole issue of the Dark Side consuming people too, that might be why the Jedi tend to fear it. I'm guessing Plo Koon would have some immunity to that effect.

Is a Jedi that uses Force Lightning to start spaceships with dead batteries really delving towards the dark side?

Wait, has someone actually done that?

Not to my knowledge, but I'm making a point.

If a cop uses a gun to subdue a criminal, does that make the gun good? Say the criminal wrestles the gun away from the cop and kills him with it. Does that now make the gun evil? The answer is no, of course not. It's just a gun.

The Force is slightly more complex, but you can look at it the same way. With the exception of Force lightning, the Jedi and Sith have duplicate powers. It is how they themselves use them that defines whether or not the user is Dark or Light, not the power itself.

Luke Force choked Gamorians. Vader Force choked Rebels. Luke did it to 'bad guys' in order to save 'good guys'. Vader did it to 'good guys' in order to kill lots more 'good guys'. It's one of those fine line things, or as Obi-Wan put 'dependent on our points of view'.

[Havok]

It is propaganda to a point. It seems to only apply to certain species. IIRC, in one of the accompanying Visual Dictionaries for the prequels states that Plo Koon, can delve much further towards the "dark side" than a human Jedi could.

We've had this argument before. The Force is like a gun. It is neither evil or good. It is the intention of the usage that matters. Is a Jedi that uses Force Lightning to start spaceships with dead batteries really delving towards the dark side?

I don't think that argument was ever settled.
The problem is that the Force itself is seen with a living will in and as of itself. And the Jedi claim the Force influences their actions.

One can certainly argue for both ways, that Force Lightning is inherently destructive(WEG IIRC), or Zahn depiction of how using the Force to control thoughts was pushing the skirt of the Dark side.

Not settled no. No, the Jedi see it as a living thing. The Sith view it as a tool. Who is right? It's kinda hard to argue against what Palpatine accomplished. Just as it is hard to argue against what Luke accomplished.

Even the Jedi realize the Force isn't all controlling. "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." I would bet if we really analyze how the Sith and Jedi look at the Force, it is going to be almost identical. The difference then comes down to the individual and how they channel the Force and to what end.

Sith use anger and fear and hatred, while the Jedi use calm and peace and love. It's hippies verse Nazis. But they both use M-16s.

What they do with the M-16s is really their defining traits though, because you can use anger and fear in a righteous way (Luke in ROTJ) and you can use love and compassion to do evil (Palpatine in ROTS). It's the intent. I do this thing to destroy worlds. I do this thing to save worlds.

The argument blurs because people move past the single acts or events and into what happens if you keep doing one or the other. If you keep using your anger to heal people, eventually your anger will overtake you. (Cade in LOTF), however that is not because of the Force. That is a failing of the individual.

[Simon_Jester]

The Force is slightly more complex, but you can look at it the same way. With the exception of Force lightning, the Jedi and Sith have duplicate powers. It is how they themselves use them that defines whether or not the user is Dark or Light, not the power itself.

Luke Force choked Gamorians. Vader Force choked Rebels. Luke did it to 'bad guys' in order to save 'good guys'. Vader did it to 'good guys' in order to kill lots more 'good guys'. It's one of those fine line things, or as Obi-Wan put 'dependent on our points of view'.

I think the problem is that there's no way to explain the difference as a one-liner. It's more about restraint, about not using the Force needlessly for destruction, about not enjoying yourself too much when you do.

It's not so much a question of intent, in my opinion, because intent is too easily perverted: it's easy to become enraged, vindictive, and generally nasty when you are ultimately hoping to achieve something useful.

So I'd argue it's about how much a sudden rush of power goes to your head. Let it go too far, and you wind up being all cackling and zapping people with lightning for the hell of it because fuck, why not? That's the sense in which the Dark Side corrupts- easy power letting you channel more easy power, and that power comes associated with strong emotions that lead you to use it for bad ends.

[PainRack]

I think I managed to misunderstand your point.

Sorry Havoc.


Here's a crucial backing of the Force is polar, but users can use both sides. Master Yoda himself uses the Dark Side for Force Precog and scrying in ROTS novelisation.

[Balrog]

Including the quote mentioned earlier, regarding Obi-Wan and the Force; bolding added to highlight.

This is Obi-Wan in the light:

As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn't have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid bodyguards. He doesn't bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast.

He doesn't even need to reach into the Force.

He has already let the Force reach into him.

The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.

There are other parts of him here, as well; there is nothing here that is not a part of him, from the scuff mark on R2-D2's dome to the tattered hem of Palaptine's robe, from the spidering in one transparisteel panel of the curving view wall above to the great starships that still battle beyond it.
Because this is all part of the Force.

Somehow, mysteriously, the cloud that has darkened the Force for near a decade and a half has lightened around him now, and he finds within himself the limpid clarity he recalls from his schooldays at the Jedi Temple, when the Force was pure, and clean, and perfect. It is as though the darkness has withdrawn, has coiled back upon itself, to allow him this moment of clarity, to return him to the full power of the light, if only for the moment; he does not know why, but he is incapable of even wondering. In the Force, he is beyond questions.

Why is meaningless; it is an echo of the past, or a whisper from the future. All that matters, for this infinite now, is what, and where, and who.

He is all sixteen of the super battle droids, gleaming in laser-reflective chrome, arms loaded with heavy blasters. He is those blasters and he is their targets. He is all eight destroyer droids waiting with electronic patience within their energy shields, and both bodyguards, and every single one of the shivering Neimoidians. He is their clothes, their boots, even each drop of reptile-scented moisture that rolls off them from the misting sprays they use to keep their internal temperatures down. He is the binders that cuff his hands, and he is the electrostaff in the hands of the bodyguards at his back.

He is both of the lightsabers that the other droid bodyguard marches forward to off to General Grevious.

And he is the general himself.

He is the general's duranium ribs. He is the beating of Grievous' alien heart, and is the silent pulse of oxygen pumped through his alien veins. He is the weight of four lightsabers at the general's belt, and is the greedy anticipation the captured weapons sparked behind the general's eyes. He is even the plan for his own execution simmering within the general's brain.

He is all these things, but most importantly, he is still Obi-Wan Kenobi.

This is why he can simply stand. Why he can simply wait. He has no need to attack, or to defend. There will be battle here, but he is perfectly at ease, perfectly content to let the battle start when it will start, and let it end when it will end.

Just as he will let himself live, or let himself die.

This is how a great Jedi makes war.

Obi-Wan stood there for a second or two, blinking, then looked at Anakin and shook his head in disbelief. "I thought we were smarter than this."
"Apparently not. The oldest trap in the book, and we walked right into it." Anakin felt as embarrassed as Obi-Wan looked. "Well, you walked right into it. I was just trying to keep up."
"Oh, so now this is my fault?"
Anakin gave him a slightly wicked smile. "Hey, you're the Master. I'm just a hero."
"Joke some other time," Obi-Wan muttered. "It's the dark side - the shadow on the Force. Our instincts still can't be trusted. Don't you feel it?"
The dark side was the last thing Anakin wanted to think about right now. "Or, you know, it could be that knock on the head," he offered.
Obi-Wan didn't even smile. "No. All our choices keep going awry. How could they even locate us so precisely? Something is definitely wrong, here. Dooku's death should have lifted the shadow-"
...
"See?" Anakin said. "No problem."
Before Obi-Wan could reply, concealed doors in the corridor walls zipped suddenly aside. Through them rolled the massive bronzium wheels of destroyer droids, two into each corridor. The eight destroyers unrolled themselves behind the battle droids, haloed by sparkling energy shields, twin blaster cannons targeting the two Jedi's chests.
Obi-Wan sight. "You were' saying?'
"Okay, fine. It's the dark side. Or something." Anakin rolled his eyes. "I guess you're off the hook for the ray shield trap."

An extended ray shield scene. A bit humorous, all things considered, and a bit about how the Jedi thought the shroud could be brought down.