SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread V

[fgalkin]

I have to go, and will respond to Thanas' points later, but I just want to point something out- it looks like Thanas ran afoul of the same carrier rules that tripped me (4k fighters is 8k space, so there is no more "4k" to assign). Could a mod look Andromeda over and sort this out?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Siege]

Anyway, all of this is a bit funny. This is a ship of a faction that has neither the capability nor interest in expanding, that is not interested in galactic affairs beside observing, a ship that is already incapable of repairing serious damage and people act as if it will suddenly appear over your worlds and rain death and destruction.

I see where you're coming from. But my problem isn't primarily that I think the Andromecha is going to rain death upon Solaris. It's that my entire fleet, that all the 405 warships the Sovereignty deploys, add up to a total of 45,475 points. This means that one single warship of yours is equal to 44% of my entire fleet. This is simply vastly disproporionate on every conceivable level. The limitations you have placed upon yourself, though admirable, don't detract from the fact that this ship is preposterously overpowered.

I'm not asking you to restate the limits you intend to adhere to. I'm asking you, what's the point? Is it just to have a really powerful ship? And if that's the case, why does it need to be this powerful per se? What does a 20,000 point ship do that a 10,000 point ship won't? Because let's be honest here, none of your neighbours are going to screw around in Sassanid space. The Bragulans are on good terms with you, and the Sovs aren't going to be invading you anytime soon either. And even if they were in a conquering kind of mood, you don't see us charging into Collector space.

It doesn't really matter that you're not that powerful NCP-wise. That doesn't even figure into it: Shroom and I, for example, don't even bother with NPCs when we write out our storylines of dickery. I don't think anyone in our neighborhood actually bothers with points when we're writing our stuff. That's another reason why the appearance of this ship is annoying, because it seems to just emphasize points over storytelling... Something which I myself at least have become extremely allergic to since the last game.

Honestly, between precedent and the sheer unnecessity of such an outrageously supercharged battle monster, I'd just like to ask to tone it down a bit. Stick to 10,000, lighten up on the travel restrictions for all I care, and you won't hear another peep from me at least. But a ship twice as expensive points-wise as the most powerful ship in-game so far... Man, that's just a recipe for problems further down the road.

[Thanas]

I'm not asking you to restate the limits you intend to adhere to. I'm asking you, what's the point? Is it just to have a really powerful ship? And if that's the case, why does it need to be this powerful per se? What does a 20,000 point ship do that a 10,000 point ship won't? Because let's be honest here, none of your neighbours are going to screw around in Sassanid space. The Bragulans are on good terms with you, and the Sovs aren't going to be invading you anytime soon either. And even if they were in a conquering kind of mood, you don't see us charging into Collector space.

I've responded to Siege via PM to this point. It is storyreasons, so if you want to be spoiled, I'll send the Pm to you as well.

[Beowulf]

I'm not asking you to restate the limits you intend to adhere to. I'm asking you, what's the point? Is it just to have a really powerful ship? And if that's the case, why does it need to be this powerful per se? What does a 20,000 point ship do that a 10,000 point ship won't? Because let's be honest here, none of your neighbours are going to screw around in Sassanid space. The Bragulans are on good terms with you, and the Sovs aren't going to be invading you anytime soon either. And even if they were in a conquering kind of mood, you don't see us charging into Collector space.

I've responded to Siege via PM to this point. It is storyreasons, so if you want to be spoiled, I'll send the Pm to you as well.

I'm sorry, I don't see what story reason there is to have a ship twice as large as the next largest ship, which is itself an exception to the rule.

[Simon_Jester]

Since I mostly share Siege's objections, though not with quite the same strength, I would appreciate the PM being forwarded to me, yes.

[Steve]

Since I mostly share Siege's objections, though not with quite the same strength, I would appreciate the PM being forwarded to me, yes.

It was. Thanas sent it to all the mods.

[Simon_Jester]

Since I mostly share Siege's objections, though not with quite the same strength, I would appreciate the PM being forwarded to me, yes.

It was. Thanas sent it to all the mods.

Yes... after I posted that request.

[Thanas]

Actually, Steve asked me to do so via Pm.

[Kartr_Kana]

Just from what Thanas has said in Commentary I'm guessing it has something to do with the Sassanids trying to attack the Xenos to acquire the magi-tech for themselves.

One thing I noted Thanas was that your capital world is a desert to protect the rest of the galaxy from your psychic emperor and his "outbursts". How does that work? Also frankly Hiigara laughs at the concept some psyker 10 sectors away being a threat to us. The GEOM is much closer and one of the most powerful pyskers in the known galaxy and He hasn't given us any trouble so why should yours be any different.

I like you Thanas and I had fun playing the Star Wars STGOD with you, you're actually the one who brought me into this STGOD. However your comment about the emperor and your 20000pt ship with insta-drive(I know doesn't work outside of Sassanid space) and your 800pt leader(I know you got rid of that) just reeks with the foul stench of wank.

[Thanas]

One thing I noted Thanas was that your capital world is a desert to protect the rest of the galaxy from your psychic emperor and his "outbursts". How does that work? Also frankly Hiigara laughs at the concept some psyker 10 sectors away being a threat to us. The GEOM is much closer and one of the most powerful pyskers in the known galaxy and He hasn't given us any trouble so why should yours be any different.

Of course the galaxy is in no threat from the emperor. He is a fairly low level psyker probably on the galactic scale, all things considered. However outbursts from other emperors have lead to deaths in the past, so better be safe than sorry. How do you think it would look if the emperor, stoned like hell, would release a burst that killed an ambassador? Do you think other nations would go "oh well, no harm done, these things happen".

Also, a desert is easier to defend from infiltration. That is probably the real reason for it.

[Tanasinn]

Simon: we should prrrrobably hash out how/if Umeria's forces are going to be involved in capturing my runaway troublemaking ESPer

[KlavoHunter]

Hey Thanas. Fuck your wanking.

That is all.

[fgalkin]

Ok, I'm back.

Point the first. Whatever story reasons aside (feel free to PM me if you want, I don't particularly care about spoilers), I simply don't think the Systems Commonwealth is that powerful.

Let's look at the weapons of a Glorious Heritage Cruiser

The Andromeda is, as every ship of her class, designed to be an extremely powerful ship with a multitude of weapon systems, offensive and defensive. She is a heavy cruiser and flagship of the Systems Commonwealth, and is supposed to be the representation of the power held by the Commonwealth.

Andromeda's standard missiles have a 40 mt yield, and reach speeds of 90+ PSL. They also have a 1 kg mass, which is approximately the size of a human fist.

She can fire 8 mps (missiles per second) from each of her 40 ELS Launch Tubes, giving her a total rate of fire of 19,200 missiles per minute. With this kind of firepower, she is able to depopulate a planet in under 2 minutes.

That IS very impressive, yes (those missiles have the yield of heavy shipkillers in something the size of a fist), but I think Thanas is vastly overestimating their effectiveness against SDNW4 ships. Given his stated chosen tactic of firing missiles from lightminutes away, that gives enemy ships minutes to evade or coordinate their point defenses. These are the same ships that evade lightspeed weapons at lightsecond ranges (and in fact, the standard engagement range is under a lightsecond not because of lack of range, but because the difficulty of hitting something further out). Moreover, the Systems Commonwealth is explicitly limited to lightspeed sensors in the show (unless they changed that, I only watched it up till the second season), which would again place the Andromache at a severe disadvantage against SDNW4 ships.

The missiles moving at 90+ PSL is also impressive, but not that unique, considering there are the nearly lightspeed missiles from Tianguo, and actual FTL missiles used by the Eoghans and my own power. Moreover, something that small as a missile from Andromache would be extremely vulnerable to things like proximity hits from nuclear blasts, widebeam or raster fire from point defense, etc. Considering the enemy computers would have whole minutes to designate a fireplan, I can easily see large numbers of these missiles being destroyed before they get anywhere into range. Yes, the sheer number of birds in space, 20k a minute, will be a problem and yes, they would simply overwhelm the point defenses of anything but the largest fleets, but I do not think it would simply swat enemy fleets out space the way it did in the prologue posts.

On the other hand, the Andromache has neither shields nor anything akin to the Sphere of Exclusion, and there are strict physical limits to how much incoming fire a ship can take (and, unlike the Monolith which is fucking huge, the Andromache has hard limits as to how much armor she can carry). Her defensive capabilities would be rather subpar compared her offensive abilities. Overall, I would rate the Andromache's strength to be around 5-8k points, realistically speaking, not counting the fighter complement.

Point the second, it looks like you got tripped up in the carrier rules (so did I, because the wiki is absolutely fucking useless *glares at the mods*). Basically, what the wiki does not say is that a fighter (or a troop) takes up twice it's own size in hullpoints (and yes, that makes carriers more expensive than their attack values). So, 4k points of fighters would require 8k points of hull capacity, not 4k.

Point the third, slipstream's strategic mobility is worth a lot more than 4k points, as Eric explained in his post. Personally, if it were up to me, I would either make it equal to the ship's offensive value, or simply disable it entirely and have the ship towed (or even carried) by other ships. That would reassure the players of its strictly defensive intent, and being stranded inside Sassanid territory would not present that much of a problem as there can always be friendly ships nearby to tow it to safety (and can open interesting story possibilites as the Sassanid fleet prepares an offensive to cover for an attempt to retrieve the Andromache, that is now stranded in what is now behind enemy lines, etc).


Point the fourth, the prologue has this bit.

The missiles were intercepted by defensive missiles before they had even cleared half the distance. And then the offensive missiles launched by the Andromache arrived on target.

The Perseid reserve fleet consisted of 32 top of the line Dreadnoughts, six carriers, 18 cruisers and over 400 frigates. All in all, they had launched nearly 7000 fighters and bombers in preparation for the attack on the Sassanid fleet.

The XMC-class heavy cruiser Andromache Ascendant had 60 missile tubes, each capable of firing 4 independently-targeted missiles per second and double that when launched against the same target, allowing her to fire 14400-28800 missiles per minute. She also had full sensor locks on all Perseid ships, which were to her just a massive array of huge, lumbering targets.

The Perseid fleet barely had time to register the missile swarm heading for them, though the slave-soldiers did their best. They tried electronic countermeasures – which failed as the AI steered the missiles manually. They tried shooting them down – only to discover the missiles were highly maneuverable and flew in a random pattern. The fighters tried to accelerate and run – only to discover that offensive missiles travelled at a speed of 85-95 percent of light speed. Finally, the Perseids trusted in their shields and thick hulls – which proved futile as over 300 volleys of missiles arrived simultaneously on target.

The Nebula lit up as the Perseid fleet was wiped out in less than three seconds.

Two points here. The first is, that if the Perseid ships had powerful enough ECM to fool the missiles at close range, how in the name of the God-Emperor did Andromache managed to "steer the missiles" from lightminutes away with its own suite of lightspeed sensors? Against vastly unfamiliar ECM from an extrauniversal power, no less. Against ships that can dodge and evade railgun rounds and lightspeed weapons at lightsecond ranges. Yeah, right.

The second point is, that if Andromache could steer the missiles, she could also very well steer the fighters, meaning that Thanas's protestations about the lack of pilots are vastly exaggerated.

Point the fifth.

a) Slipstream leaves gravitonic anomalies, so you would know what had happened

Assuming we would know that "gravitonic anomaly= slipstream," which is unlikely

b) The Xenos have no starcharts of other empires

Easily acquired. There IS a lot of intestellar commerce going on, you know

c) The fighters are too valuable and atm irreplacable

They are also small, and fairly easily retrieved by a waiting ship, if one cares to do so.

d) lack of pilots. Currently I think there are about six or so, with another six or so graduating.

Easily corrected in a year or so.

e) I am pretty sure having unallowed fighters appear in other empires is an act of war.

It depends on the fighters, and whether they are detected, which may not be likely, if the scouting is done intelligently.

f) The Xenos have no interest at all in other empires. They do not want to visit them with the ship, they do not want to let other empires know about the ship etc. Having slipfighters appear all over the universe is a great way to call attention to yourself. The xenos would prefer if nobody ever found out about them. Heck, their whole society is built on isolating themselves, even from their own citizens.

Assurances are nice and well, but they have a tendency to go out the window when push comes to shove. I wanted a defensive fleet and I did not give most of my ships hyperdrives. That is hard limits, not assurances. In your case, if the Sassanids are fighting for survival, the Andromache may well end up being used offensively. Simply jumping into an empty system in enemy space, or even deep space would force the enemy to commit something like half their total navy, which can not carry out offensive operations, or even protect their own fleet bases. That is a huge, potentially war-winning advantage and I am very strongly opposed to it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Steve]

Hey Thanas. Fuck your wanking.

That is all.

Klavo, that's uncalled for. If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, shut up.

This issue's being handled people, and handled with reason. We don't need idiotic "me-too"ing involved here. Trust me when I say that no matter what the power of Thanas' faction is, it won't be used to gain an unfair advantage over anyone. That's my guarantee.

[Kartr_Kana]

One thing I noted Thanas was that your capital world is a desert to protect the rest of the galaxy from your psychic emperor and his "outbursts". How does that work? Also frankly Hiigara laughs at the concept some psyker 10 sectors away being a threat to us. The GEOM is much closer and one of the most powerful pyskers in the known galaxy and He hasn't given us any trouble so why should yours be any different.

Of course the galaxy is in no threat from the emperor. He is a fairly low level psyker probably on the galactic scale, all things considered. However outbursts from other emperors have lead to deaths in the past, so better be safe than sorry. How do you think it would look if the emperor, stoned like hell, would release a burst that killed an ambassador? Do you think other nations would go "oh well, no harm done, these things happen".

Thank you for clarifying that because the line makes it sound like he's a threat to the galaxy at large and only by him being in the middle of a lifeless desert are we protected. It makes no mention that ambassadors aren't allowed on the planet lest he fry their brains while high.

Point the second, it looks like you got tripped up in the carrier rules (so did I, because the wiki is absolutely fucking useless *glares at the mods*). Basically, what the wiki does not say is that a fighter (or a troop) takes up twice it's own size in hullpoints (and yes, that makes carriers more expensive than their attack values). So, 4k points of fighters would require 8k points of hull capacity, not 4k.

Carriers can carry have their hull point value in fighters, ie $400/2 = $200 worth of fighters. Fighters have their purchase cost times two to determine their combat ability, $200 worth of fighters *2=$400 dollars of combat capability. Where the additional cost comes in is having to buy fighters as well as carriers. New carriers plus the fighters to fill them is going to cost ~1.5(combat ability). However as long as you keep your carrier alive you can just replace the fighters and you will save money. Just don't go crazy doing kamikaze suicide attacks and then rapidly replacing them or you'll get hit with the mod hammer. Also this 1.5 cost to capability disparity is negated for your initial OOB as all carriers get their fighters free. So the 1.5 cost/capability only applies to carriers built after the initial OOB.

[Thanas]

Thank you for clarifying that because the line makes it sound like he's a threat to the galaxy at large and only by him being in the middle of a lifeless desert are we protected. It makes no mention that ambassadors aren't allowed on the planet lest he fry their brains while high.

Sorry. I did write that

The entire world is empty of human live save for the Imperial Servants and the Sughdian legions guarding their sovereign.

and

[...]it is here that foreign ambassadors are received and it is here that the day-to-day affairs of state are conducted.

but you are right, I should have been a bit more specific.

[fgalkin]

I have been assured by Steve that the Andromache will not leave Sassanid space. I therefore retract the points about Thanas using it offensively, although I would still prefer the drive to be non-functional and the ship to be towed, if only to provide early warning of its arrival.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Siege]

Y'know what? I exchanged a few PMs with Thanas and I had some time to think about it, and you may all consider my objections dropped. I'm still not convinced a 20k ship is the greatest thing since sliced bread but then again most of y'all probably did one thing or another at some point that I didn't like (hell I probably did), but when all's said and done I trust the guy to write a damn good story above all else.

So you got my kinda-blessing, dude. Just don't make me come over to Hanover or wherever the hell to kick your ass if you mess it up .

[Agent Sorchus]

(The Pendleton precedent has been invoked)

I will note that while the Precedent had been invoked, for the moment it is not invoked widespread.

It will be, eventually, if for no other reason than we have to justify going to war against the MEH to the galaxy at large. The only question is when.

I actually am thinking of challenging the invocation of Pendleton (in the story thread, when it comes up. Just giving you my rationale now)

Here is my reasoning. Unlike Pendleton this isn't systematic slavery and they didn't try to hide slaves on a "diplomatic mission" ship. Yes it is horrible but less than the initial plan of genocide of the Orks. And a few thousand psychers out of the hands of the shepistanis is still a good thing. Besides the way that the Shinrans are handling it is far different than Pendleton, with more emphasis on only close allies rather than the announcement by The Anglicans that they had had enough. Plus there is the sanctions and other things that Steve alluded to that built up to the Pendleton Invassion that bear noting that is not happening here.

In my mind it is a unsatisfactory rationale, and In Character the Eoghans would see it as a land grab (partially since they don't value Precedence in their system of law and justice, and because the other issues aren't included in the declaration/reasons for war [as it stands]). And yeah I know that multiple people are wanting to get the MeH gone, but this leaves out so many of those that want to participate (which is the reason I wanted this stated.)

AS to Thanas' mega ship, I find that if it were 15k with an awesome drive but fought near to 10k or 8k i wouldn't have much problem with it. Look to the The Darkness Within that is a 9000 pnt super station of doom that includes a warp gate and some form of ftl, no one has a problem with it and it has many of the same advantages that the Andromache has.

I'm glad that both you and Stas want back in (and wish that RL wasn't keeping Coyote away) so I am willing to look the other way on this, so long as the Don't be a Douche rule stays in effect.

[Darkevilme]

In my mind it is a unsatisfactory rationale, and In Character the Eoghans would see it as a land grab (partially since they don't value Precedence in their system of law and justice, and because the other issues aren't included in the declaration/reasons for war [as it stands]). And yeah I know that multiple people are wanting to get the MeH gone, but this leaves out so many of those that want to participate (which is the reason I wanted this stated.)

To be fair, not everyone involved is being involved cause of the Pendleton precedent.

[Agent Sorchus]

In my mind it is a unsatisfactory rationale, and In Character the Eoghans would see it as a land grab (partially since they don't value Precedence in their system of law and justice, and because the other issues aren't included in the declaration/reasons for war [as it stands]). And yeah I know that multiple people are wanting to get the MeH gone, but this leaves out so many of those that want to participate (which is the reason I wanted this stated.)

To be fair, not everyone involved is being involved cause of the Pendleton precedent.

I know, but of the group that RogueIce is raising that is the primary rationale, and from what I can gather from the story thread Rogues people are trying to keep it as an insular little war. Yeah, you have more reason than Rogue to want a potential belligerent out of the way, but from what I remember of the story threads that Rogue has made he is actually trying to keep most other nations out of this.

[Steve]

The Anglian POV doesn't consider it the "Pendleton Precedent" at all. To us, Pendleton is merely the most public, currently, of the Empire's common perception: that slavery of sentients is evil and that any state that promotes it is in flagrante delicto violation of the laws of Civilisation. Slavers are, to the Anglian Empire, the 35th Century equivalent of the 19th Century Hostis humani generis, "Enemies of All Mankind". which was applied to pirates and slavers and more recently torturers.

(Hey, any Latin speakers who can turn the "Mankind" part to "Sentientkind", reflecting the aliens? The Empire is multi-racial now, and our legal code would recognize that in terminology).

[Thanas]

Hostis universalis (enemy of all) or hostes universales (enemies of all) would be my suggestion. Especially considering sapientkind does not exist as a word in the latin language so you would have to use word combination instead.

[Simon_Jester]

I still think it would be more tactful, and a very significant show of goodwill on Thanas's part, were he to make some modifications to the point distribution of his fleet that will not prevent him from writing the plot he has planned.

Which, again, is a good plot, I want to preserve it. But adamant refusal to consider changes to an order of battle one planned several months ago and then didn't show people until yesterday, despite its containing something that could set very bad precedents,* is a bad way to kick off one's game activity.

So I'm not satisfied with the point distribution of the Xenos faction, though I do not object to there being a force worth ~20000 points within the Sassanid Empire that gains its combat potential from extremely advanced technology and having a form of FTL drive well in advance of conventional hyperdrive. I just have my own opinions about how that should be implemented in the game rules. I think that with a bit of imagination and good faith, it would be very easy to do this in ways that address the players' concerns while still giving Thanas the basic strategic situation he needs for his plot to work.

*And yes, Andromache does set bad precedents if we get any more idiots in here.

Simon: we should prrrrobably hash out how/if Umeria's forces are going to be involved in capturing my runaway troublemaking ESPer

They will. As alluded to in my diplonote (currently most recent in the diplothread) the job has been handed off to a task force from the specialist esper-hunting branch of the Umerian Internal Security Directorate. If he's on a fringe world, the job will be fairly "normal:" no ubiquitous surveillance covering his moves, so he'll have to be hunted down in open country, possibly country harboring 'browncoat' sympathies- even on parts of the fringe not directly involved in the revolt of the Independent Spinward Republic back in '91, there were people who have the same distrust of the central government.

They will cooperate fully with Union authorities on the subject, since he hasn't applied for asylum or anything.

However, I do not have (or should not make) time to write extensive posts on the subject. You are welcome and encouraged to make things up and run them by me (or not), but I don't want to try being a major author on a collaborative post on that, at least not for the next week or so.

Ok, I'm back.

Point the first. Whatever story reasons aside (feel free to PM me if you want, I don't particularly care about spoilers), I simply don't think the Systems Commonwealth is that powerful.

Let's look at the weapons of a Glorious Heritage Cruiser...

Andromeda's standard missiles have a 40 mt yield, and reach speeds of 90+ PSL. They also have a 1 kg mass, which is approximately the size of a human fist.

She can fire 8 mps (missiles per second) from each of her 40 ELS Launch Tubes, giving her a total rate of fire of 19,200 missiles per minute. With this kind of firepower, she is able to depopulate a planet in under 2 minutes.

That IS very impressive, yes (those missiles have the yield of heavy shipkillers in something the size of a fist), but I think Thanas is vastly overestimating their effectiveness against SDNW4 ships. Given his stated chosen tactic of firing missiles from lightminutes away, that gives enemy ships minutes to evade or coordinate their point defenses. These are the same ships that evade lightspeed weapons at lightsecond ranges (and in fact, the standard engagement range is under a lightsecond not because of lack of range, but because the difficulty of hitting something further out). Moreover, the Systems Commonwealth is explicitly limited to lightspeed sensors in the show (unless they changed that, I only watched it up till the second season), which would again place the Andromache at a severe disadvantage against SDNW4 ships.

[modhat]

STOP. Right now. This kind of calculation being thrown around is NOT accepted practice in this setting. It defeats the entire purpose of the point system to try and argue this way. If you want to argue "a 20000-point ship is too big," you can. But if you want to argue that "the Systems Commonwealth isn't that powerful," I will fucking laugh at you even though you are trying to use (implicit) figures in my own posts as justification for your argument.

Remember the space triremes, friend. Remember the space triremes.
________

Point the second, it looks like you got tripped up in the carrier rules (so did I, because the wiki is absolutely fucking useless *glares at the mods*). Basically, what the wiki does not say is that a fighter (or a troop) takes up twice it's own size in hullpoints (and yes, that makes carriers more expensive than their attack values). So, 4k points of fighters would require 8k points of hull capacity, not 4k.

This interacts strangely when the fighters in question are, pointswise, powerful enough to be independent ships of their own right. We already have a ruling limiting the point size of fighters (originally applied to the MEH because of Chaotic Neutral being a wanker).

I don't mind Thanas having 20-point parasite craft, but I don't think they should be covered under the carrier rules- I think it might be best for Thanas to simply have a 'cloud' of ships which for rules purposes are independent FTL-capable ships, but which are fluffed as Andromache's fighter wing.

However, Thanas is entitled to make these fighters independently FTL-capable over long ranges, even at 20 points, just as a Blitz-class corvette would be. In my opinion, what he should do is tone down the point value of Andromache and treat the fighter wing as being independently mobile craft in the destroyer point range (40-50 points). This allows him to grant the same amount of military strength to the 'Xeno' faction, without requiring a single 20000 point behemoth wankship.

Of course, that may require a slight divergence from Andromeda series fluff that presents the fighters as not being mobile over interstellar distances. I don't really care.

Point the third, slipstream's strategic mobility is worth a lot more than 4k points, as Eric explained in his post. Personally, if it were up to me, I would either make it equal to the ship's offensive value, or simply disable it entirely and have the ship towed (or even carried) by other ships. That would reassure the players of its strictly defensive intent, and being stranded inside Sassanid territory would not present that much of a problem as there can always be friendly ships nearby to tow it to safety (and can open interesting story possibilites as the Sassanid fleet prepares an offensive to cover for an attempt to retrieve the Andromache, that is now stranded in what is now behind enemy lines, etc).

Thanas has valid reasons to want Andromache to be able to move under her own power, which I do not criticize.

Two points here. The first is, that if the Perseid ships had powerful enough ECM to fool the missiles at close range, how in the name of the God-Emperor did Andromache managed to "steer the missiles" from lightminutes away with its own suite of lightspeed sensors? Against vastly unfamiliar ECM from an extrauniversal power, no less. Against ships that can dodge and evade railgun rounds and lightspeed weapons at lightsecond ranges. Yeah, right.

You are not allowed to make arguments of this form; they default to being invalid. Next you'll be asking how Bragulan subnuclear engines can possibly work. Or how Elysian space triremes can beat Prussian missile frigates. Or, for that matter, how Elysian space triremes can move at all.

So no. Again, if you wish to make 'soft' arguments involving strategy and relative point costs, you are free to do so. You cannot argue along the lines of "the technology described shouldn't be able to do that."

[Thanas]

So I'm not satisfied with the point distribution of the Xenos faction, though I do not object to there being a force worth ~20000 points within the Sassanid Empire that gains its combat potential from extremely advanced technology and having a form of FTL drive well in advance of conventional hyperdrive. I just have my own opinions about how that should be implemented in the game rules. I think that with a bit of imagination and good faith, it would be very easy to do this in ways that address the players' concerns while still giving Thanas the basic strategic situation he needs for his plot to work.

A minor correction which is quite important here. It is not a 20k force. It is currently a 12 k force, which, after several years of pilot retraining, might hit 16k as the upper ceiling. The other 4k were points I penalized myself with for having such a ship. So if you want to have it in "how much damage does it do" terms, it is 16k. The pricetag of 20k is another way to prevent the xenos of building another one, seeing as how they are living on a 2k sector.