SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread V

[RogueIce]

Whoops, quoted myself instead of editing, feel free to delete.

[fgalkin]

Well, Heim drives would give the fighters a great deal of tactical maneuverability (which is why I gave it to all my combat-oriented strikecraft).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

A point, which is one reason why I declined using the non-FTL "fighters" and went with straight up FTL capable gunboats as my fighters. These, which can use hyperspace to strike targets several systems distant, do present a capability that the pew pew lasers/railguns/drone fighters/etc lack and are worth seperate classification.

I suppose one alteration that might work without scrapping the system is that instead of fighters being non-FTL, they instead of Heim drives, rather than the faster (but generic) 'FTL drives' of their gunboat counterparts. Essentially, a smaller, shorter ranged and "slower" (in terms of going from one system to another) version of GBs.

Not unreasonable, but problematic in a few respects:

1) It doesn't make a lot of sense for 'fleet defense fighters,' which make up a large portion of my total sublight fighter force and play a role in quite a few others.

2) I'm not sure we want everyone and his cousin Fred using Heim drives in combat all the time, and since nearly everyone has sublight fighters, that's what we'd wind up with.

For example, if the Centralist 0.1-point fighters were Heim-capable, the Battle of Zebes would have looked quite different. Because then they'd be able to take down the interdictor grid themselves with a massed Heimfighter launch. They would also have been able to launch a Heim-capable pursuit of the Kavoolite warp strafers; the defensive advantage of dual-drive ships in shoals would be effectively neutralized if everyone made widespread use of Heim-capable fighters.

As it was, their hyper-capable gunships were immobilized, leaving them limited to sublight craft that couldn't get into attack range in time to matter.

3) If all small craft in everyone's fleets gain FTL mobility, you run the risk of making carriers completely unattackable, as opposed to merely difficult to attack. As it stands, they can still send their fighters in from longer range than anything but specialized 'strategic bombardment' missiles could reach them during sublight combat, but it's at least remotely practical for non-carriers to charge carriers, shoulder aside their fighter elements, and force the carriers to either flee into hyper or be taken down. If all carrier attacks are launched from light-days out, that really isn't such a viable plan.

Sort of like the advantage of real carriers, sending the air wings to do the attacking and sitting back where enemy surface ships can't hit them.

Only problem is, real carriers aren't exactly balanced with battleships of comparable tonnage. Ideally, in SDNW4 we want them to be (more or less) balanced. Which means keeping the carriers' range advantage within certain limits.

[Agent Sorchus]

I would like to point out that "hyperlight" shuttles are not really heim drive craft. They are hyperlight, with the assumption that the ftl engine isn't built with endurance in mind. Heim has always been assumed to be far more space intensive than hyperdrives. I am all for some fighters to start gaining hyperlight drives but to keep it limited. What I am proposing is that fighters over say 5$ get hyperlight, with the limited range that implies and by the time you get to 2per $ it is a intrasector drive. (It is what I am doing with my new fighter type.) After all the 15 per dollar hyperlight shuttles have ftl, so why shouldn't more fighters?

As to the less than great nature of the carrier rules, we could integrate ideas with the troops. As in have Elite Veteren and Rookie level training. In a war you cannot produce Elite fighter pilots as fast as you loose them. You can carry a certain number of fighters per point, like troops (although modified by cost, unlike troops) and training is what allows you to fill the difference. Thus even with ftl fighters the carriers performance degrades as the peacetime Elite pilots (or highly stress tested AIs for those of you with drones) are lost and replaced with Rookies, with Veterens making up only a small portion of the numbers back. So even if it is harder to get a kill on a carrier it becomes more and more Irrelevant to the War effort.

Alternatively Carriers could become far easier to destroy than they look, but I don't like this Idea.

[RogueIce]

I'm going to apologize for the FTL fighters things. I shouldn't have said it, and leaving them as they are is well enough. I think Simon nicely summed up their use. And I mostly apologize for opening up people deciding to toss out their ideas on rule modifications. I shouldn't have done it.

But no to the whole ranking thing, please. That just makes us have to refigure stuff out and nobody wants to do that. Plus, it's rather pointless and would make the whole carrier thing make less sense. Just leave them as having the punch of their point value and whatever number of physical hulls that represents is largely irrelevant.

[Simon_Jester]

I would like to point out that "hyperlight" shuttles are not really heim drive craft. They are hyperlight, with the assumption that the ftl engine isn't built with endurance in mind. Heim has always been assumed to be far more space intensive than hyperdrives. I am all for some fighters to start gaining hyperlight drives but to keep it limited. What I am proposing is that fighters over say 5$ get hyperlight, with the limited range that implies and by the time you get to 2per $ it is a intrasector drive. (It is what I am doing with my new fighter type.) After all the 15 per dollar hyperlight shuttles have ftl, so why shouldn't more fighters?

Actually, yes, "hyperlight" shuttles are Heim-drive craft. Compared to starships with Heim drive, they generally have short endurance- I suspect their maximum range without refueling would be something on the order of a few hours of Heim drive flight, which is nowhere near enough to cover interstellar distances. There would be exceptions (Heim-capable equivalents of maritime patrol craft)... but really, the Heim drive is supposed to be near-obsolete technology except in areas where it is impractical to use hyperdrive: the inner system around a star, and in shoal territory.

I also suspect that hyperlight shuttles tend to be fragile, bulky, and cargo/payload-inefficient for their tonnage: the Heim drive takes up enough physical space that you can't put all that much cargo (or weapons) on the craft on top of it. By the time you've scaled up the part of the craft not dedicated to the Heim drive until it's a useful combat fighter, you've got something so big you might as well slap on a hyperdrive and make a gunboat of it.

There are no doubt a few exceptions around the galaxy- the Lost whose tech paradigm is very weird, some of the shoal powers who may have put more effort into miniaturized Heim drives than normal nations, and so on. But I think the prevailing rule should be that to turn a Heim-drive "hyperlight shuttle" into a really effective combat small craft, you have to make it so big that in-character, there's no reason not to go to gunboats.

And again, I do not like the level of proliferation of Heim drive that is implied by making them universal as a routine feature for starfighters. Not everyone wants Heim-capable fighters (not even everyone with 4 per $ fighters). And there are huge tactical consequences to having them. For people whose fleet layouts are based on some kind of attempt at a coherent, rationalized doctrine that fits multiple types of ships and small craft together, rearranging the doctrine can present serious problems.

Also, I honestly do not see that there is a 'range limit' problem with carriers. Carriers are not necessarily supposed to present players with a drastically different strategy than 'normal' ships. They can, certainly; that's what gunboat carriers do. But they don't have to; there doesn't have to be a major tactical difference between a carrier and an arsenal ship, except that one launches more versatile, more reusable 'missile buses' that count as non-expendable standing forces rather than expendable ammunition.

As to the less than great nature of the carrier rules, we could integrate ideas with the troops. As in have Elite Veteren and Rookie level training. In a war you cannot produce Elite fighter pilots as fast as you loose them. You can carry a certain number of fighters per point, like troops (although modified by cost, unlike troops) and training is what allows you to fill the difference. Thus even with ftl fighters the carriers performance degrades as the peacetime Elite pilots (or highly stress tested AIs for those of you with drones) are lost and replaced with Rookies, with Veterens making up only a small portion of the numbers back. So even if it is harder to get a kill on a carrier it becomes more and more Irrelevant to the War effort.

Requires excessive rules complexity, though. The carrier rules are already getting complaints for being too complicated. Implementing (and tracking) training rules would make the complexity crippling for the style of play we're aiming for.

Alternatively Carriers could become far easier to destroy than they look, but I don't like this Idea.

Me neither.

While it might make sense to change the rules to make carrier combat mathematically 'simpler' by saying that a carrier by throwing out the 1/2 and x2 factors that cancel each other out*, I don't think it makes sense to do much of anything else to revamp the small craft rules. I mean, does anyone really have a problem with the basic division of "sublight small, hyperspace large" we now have between fighters and gunboats? I haven't seen a lot of complaints about that aspect. There's a bit of demand for Heimfighters, but it's not overwhelming and is best met in terms of one-off exceptions to the rule.

*(and I don't even like doing this because of the changes it imposes on orders of battle without obvious reasons)

[Agent Sorchus]

I am going to roll with hyperlight being slightly different no matter what, and I think I have crossed into the Douche side of things with this last post. It has been up long enough everyone has seen it so rather than deleting it I am spoilering it.

I should have spent my time writing a story post rather than arguing.
Spoiler

Actually, yes, "hyperlight" shuttles are Heim-drive craft. Compared to starships with Heim drive, they generally have short endurance- I suspect their maximum range without refueling would be something on the order of a few hours of Heim drive flight, which is nowhere near enough to cover interstellar distances. There would be exceptions (Heim-capable equivalents of maritime patrol craft)... but really, the Heim drive is supposed to be near-obsolete technology ...

Exactly, which is why the term hyperlight is used, they are not Heim. Tell me where it has been stated that they are Heim? Comments or Wiki only, oh yeah I don't think they ever where. It was stated that hyperlights are 53c in the planning thread, but was never called heim.

I also suspect that hyperlight shuttles tend to be fragile, bulky, and cargo/payload-inefficient for their tonnage: the Heim drive takes up enough physical space that you can't put all that much cargo (or weapons) on the craft on top of it. By the time you've scaled up the part of the craft not dedicated to the Heim drive until it's a useful combat fighter, you've got something so big you might as well slap on a hyperdrive and make a gunboat of it.

So then why is a carrier so able to easily carry such large and bulky craft? This is why there should be the assumption that there is a modern light hour distance relative of full hyperdrives[ie hyperlight], because a) heim is old, b) we have always treated it as bulky and not something that is going to be used in light commercial shuttles. I have no problem with a drive that is technically hyperdrive in a small package that has at most light hour range, why do you?

And again, I do not like the level of proliferation of Heim drive that is implied by making them universal as a routine feature for starfighters. Not everyone wants Heim-capable fighters (not even everyone with 4 per $ fighters). And there are huge tactical consequences to having them. For people whose fleet layouts are based on some kind of attempt at a coherent, rationalized doctrine that fits multiple types of ships and small craft together, rearranging the doctrine can present serious problems.

What about in system patrols? Fighters are plenty for that, and a full up sector range hyperdrive is too much, while 52c heim with your size objections is wrong. And like I say below, screw the old doctrines. I am not calling for the proliferation of heim, but hyperlight as a new category. I agree that the 10 per $ fighters should remain non ftl, but not that we can't look beyond them. Hell almost no one built things that weren't either gunship values or the lowly 10per dollar fighters, so it wouldn't challenge anyone's pre-existing doctrines of untarnished holiness to treat the intermediate stuff differently.

Also, I honestly do not see that there is a 'range limit' problem with carriers. Carriers are not necessarily supposed to present players with a drastically different strategy than 'normal' ships. They can, certainly; that's what gunboat carriers do. But they don't have to; there doesn't have to be a major tactical difference between a carrier and an arsenal ship, except that one launches more versatile, more reusable 'missile buses' that count as non-expendable standing forces rather than expendable ammunition.

Fuck it I ain't even thinking of carriers, but ground based patrol fighters when I talk about ftl fighter craft. Carriers are still weird, with the one half and times two and the ten percent direct firepower thing, but I don't care deal with it by writing good stories. The thing is by assuming that there are no short range hyperspace type drives it actually reduces story telling possibilities without really enhancing the rules.

And many of your objections about the past are dully noted and ignored. We need to consider these things, and so long as the laem verse stuff exists we shouldn't care that things aren't totally consistent. We have never cared for consistency of tech in this (not really) for the sake of the story. If we initially objected to the Chamaran Outsiders, but have allowed both Mayabird and Fgalkin to completely change the name of the game on this stuff for story than why shouldn't we consider other things?

[Agent Sorchus]

Edited the above post, I am going to go work on a story post or ten now.

[Simon_Jester]

Honestly, Sorchus, I'd be just as happy to pretend you never made those comments, because they don't stand up well on their own merits. I won't say more about it, but...
Spoiler

Exactly, which is why the term hyperlight is used, they are not Heim. Tell me where it has been stated that they are Heim? Comments or Wiki only, oh yeah I don't think they ever where. It was stated that hyperlights are 53c in the planning thread, but was never called heim.

If you bothered to cross-reference to the Interstellar Travel page, you will note the phrase, near the top: "The Heim Drive... uses gravito-magnetic field manipulations... These drives have a solid feasible speed cap of 53c." So yeah, you're kind of wrong about this part.

So then why is a carrier so able to easily carry such large and bulky craft? This is why there should be the assumption that there is a modern light hour distance relative of full hyperdrives[ie hyperlight], because a) heim is old, b) we have always treated it as bulky and not something that is going to be used in light commercial shuttles. I have no problem with a drive that is technically hyperdrive in a small package that has at most light hour range, why do you?

Since this is premised on hyperlight craft not being Heim-drive craft, it's irrelevant.

What about in system patrols? Fighters are plenty for that, and a full up sector range hyperdrive is too much, while 52c heim with your size objections is wrong. And like I say below, screw the old doctrines. I am not calling for the proliferation of heim, but hyperlight as a new category. I agree that the 10 per $ fighters should remain non ftl, but not that we can't look beyond them. Hell almost no one built things that weren't either gunship values or the lowly 10per dollar fighters, so it wouldn't challenge anyone's pre-existing doctrines of untarnished holiness to treat the intermediate stuff differently.

This is also wrong: there are a number of nations with 4 per $ fighters (Shepistani Vipers, Hiigaran and Anglian designs all come to mind).

Fuck it I ain't even thinking of carriers, but ground based patrol fighters when I talk about ftl fighter craft. Carriers are still weird, with the one half and times two and the ten percent direct firepower thing, but I don't care deal with it by writing good stories. The thing is by assuming that there are no short range hyperspace type drives it actually reduces story telling possibilities without really enhancing the rules.

For ground based patrol fighters, you can do whatever the hell you want because they're part of your system defenses... as long as you don't try to move the system defenses from one system to another.

And many of your objections about the past are dully noted and ignored. We need to consider these things, and so long as the laem verse stuff exists we shouldn't care that things aren't totally consistent. We have never cared for consistency of tech in this (not really) for the sake of the story. If we initially objected to the Chamaran Outsiders, but have allowed both Mayabird and Fgalkin to completely change the name of the game on this stuff for story than why shouldn't we consider other things?

We don't care about consistency of rulings on fluff, not to speak of. But the entire point of the rules in this game is provide a broad skeletal framework to allow us to play in a common frame of reference. That requires everyone to be following the rules. Changing the rules about how orders of battle work means people changing their orders of battle. Which is a pain in the ass for a lot of people who aren't you, and who happen to outnumber you. So unless I see some kind of groundswell of support for "everyone should have Heimfighters..." well, you get the idea.

[Kartr_Kana]

The Sassanids do not like interfering in other sovereign nations, so you should count them out. They'll help the Bragulans with some logistics supply due to the relations between the nations but will not take part in any fighting, merely observing.

(It is not like the grand total of the Sassanid offensive strength of one dreadnought and four light cruisers would make a difference either way in any case).

You've made it clear in the past and remind us yet again that you are an insular nation that will more than likely have zero interaction with the rest of us. You continue to insist on a wanktastic ship despite concerns and plausible compromises proposed by many of your fellow players. I have to question if you're actually here to play or if you found yourself in the STGOD forum rather than the FanFic forum some how. Since to me it sounds like you're more interested in writing your own little story and ignoring or refusing to interact with anyone in any meaningful way.

So are you here to play and interact with the rest of us? Or write your own little Andromeda meets Dune fanfic?

[Siege]

I can answer that at least in part: Thanas and myself are already planning interactions between his Sassanids and my Sovereignty. So that's some Grade A quality interaction right there.

[Steve]

The issue with Thanas has been discussed and settled, I want this grumbling to stop now, alright? Let's not poison the freaking well any more than we already have.

[Kartr_Kana]

/shrug ok consider it dropped.

[Lonestar]

Sänger! by God!

[Thanas]

Sänger! by God!

Fun times.

However, I have to question why the SNDW3 German Empire would sink Dominion ships (I'd actually imagine there would be deadlock for centuries between the states who signed the treaty of Vienna, The Aegean Pact and the Dominion/East Asian states, given that nobody could really start a war). But that is okay, we can work that one out when we eventually get to writing the SDNW3 epilogue, no use quibbling over this.

However, please note that that Reichskanzler Johannes Sänger of SDNW3 is not the same as Korvettenkapitän Georg Sänger, Head of House Xenos, his descendant. Johannes Sänger is dead and buried for over 13 centuries now. His character arc is over, continuing him would serve no purpose. He (or will be, once we get to the epilogue writing for SDNW3) has gone full circle. Dead and gone.

And that he actually is from another universe is also unknown to most except for the Sassanid leadership. In fact, Shroom, Siege and Pezook are all working under the assumption that he is - so far - one unusual Sassanid noble with a very odd name.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, Fairfax and Sheppard are prone to reacting extremely to unusual stimuli. They may just be twitchy. I await developments with considerable interest.

Also, hah. BBGNs.

The logical endpoint, I suppose...

[Lonestar]

Sänger! by God!

Fun times.

However, I have to question why the SNDW3 German Empire would sink Dominion ships (I'd actually imagine there would be deadlock for centuries between the states who signed the treaty of Vienna, The Aegean Pact and the Dominion/East Asian states, given that nobody could really start a war). But that is okay, we can work that one out when we eventually get to writing the SDNW3 epilogue, no use quibbling over this.

More importantly, Fairfax thinks Germans did so. Obviously the Grand Dominion of the Indies was not short of enemies.

However, please note that that Reichskanzler Johannes Sänger of SDNW3 is not the same as Korvettenkapitän Georg Sänger, Head of House Xenos, his descendant. Johannes Sänger is dead and buried for over 13 centuries now. His character arc is over, continuing him would serve no purpose. He (or will be, once we get to the epilogue writing for SDNW3) has gone full circle. Dead and gone.

I know that, you know that...does Fairfax, Bhatt, and soon General Sheppard know that?

(note that while Fairfax thought that he was the split and image of Sänger, his wife thought he only bore a passing resemblance)

And that he actually is from another universe is also unknown to most except for the Sassanid leadership. In fact, Shroom, Siege and Pezook are all working under the assumption that he is - so far - one unusual Sassanid noble with a very odd name.

The head of FIS said it was one of those "RUMINT things", and basically something that Dominionoid Intelligence Agencies shoved into the 'those crazy furriners' column. It wouldn't have been well known, but it wouldn't have been worth verifying (although he did indicate that something similar had happened before)

[Thanas]

In that case, I have no objections at all and look forward to your next posts.


EDIT: heck, a meeting between Fairfax, Shep and Sänger could have great potential.

[Lonestar]

EDIT: heck, a meeting between Fairfax, Shep and Sänger could have great potential.

I was thinking more like "Fairfax and Shep put out a Mob hit out on Sänger"

[Lonestar]

(I won't go further in that story in the story thread until I can speak to Shep...so basically we're waiting until Shep's internets is more than phone deep)

[Thanas]

EDIT: heck, a meeting between Fairfax, Shep and Sänger could have great potential.

I was thinking more like "Fairfax and Shep put out a Mob hit out on Sänger"

That could have great potential as well.

[Thanas]

Also:

I opened a SDNW3 epilogue coordination thread here.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, Fairfax and Sheppard are prone to reacting extremely to unusual stimuli. They may just be twitchy. I await developments with considerable interest.

Also, hah. BBGNs.

The logical endpoint, I suppose...

Maybe their time being frozen in cryotanks or being translocated by intrinsic field generators have caused their brains to go a bit loopy.

[Ezekiel]

Well, Fairfax and Sheppard are prone to reacting extremely to unusual stimuli. They may just be twitchy. I await developments with considerable interest.

Also, hah. BBGNs.

The logical endpoint, I suppose...

Maybe their time being frozen in cryotanks or being translocated by intrinsic field generators have caused their brains to go a bit loopy.

Some say the source Man Code was flawed to begin with...

[Karmic Knight]

Hey Ezekiel are you going to be in the EFG, Lower Teens region, where most of the United Sectors are now? Or are you going to be someplace different? I believe I remember discussion of your location as being in that general area, am I correct?