US vetoes UN measure against Israeli settlement building

[Thanas]

Link to BBC

US vetoes UN resolution condemning Israeli settlements

The US has vetoed an Arab resolution at the UN Security Council condemning Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories as an obstacle to peace.

All 14 other members of the Security Council backed the resolution, which had been endorsed by the Palestine Liberation Organisation.

It was the first veto exercised by the Obama administration which had promised better relations with the Muslim world.

A Palestinian official said the talks process would now be "re-assessed".

Washington was under pressure from Israel and Congress, which has a strong pro-Israel lobby, to use its veto.

The Obama administration's decision risks angering Arab peoples at a time of mass street protests in the Middle East, the BBC's Barbara Plett reports from the UN. It had placed enormous pressure on the Palestinians to withdraw the resolution and accept alternatives, but these were ultimately rejected.

While stating that it opposed new settlements, the administration argued that taking the issue to the UN would only complicate efforts to resume stalled negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on a two-state peace deal.

"Unfortunately, this draft resolution risks hardening the positions of both sides," said the US Ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice.

The resolution, sponsored by at least 130 countries, declared Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories were illegal and a "major obstacle to the achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive peace".

Speaking from Ramallah in the West Bank, PLO secretary general Yasser Abed Rabbo said the US veto was "unfortunate" and "affected the credibility of the US administration".

Anybody surprised that Obama would cave on this? Really?

[MarshalPurnell]

So, if China and Russia were to veto a resolution condemning the Iranian nuclear weapons program, I guess that would mean China and Russia support Iran having nuclear weapons?

[Thanas]

So, if China and Russia were to veto a resolution condemning the Iranian nuclear weapons program, I guess that would mean China and Russia support Iran having nuclear weapons?

You are right, I'll adjust the title.

[Zaune]

Anyone else wondering if a different approach is needed here? Quite apart from the question of whether Israel's human rights record really makes them the guys in the white hats anymore, there's the significant practical consideration of who has more crude left.

Nothing like a proven combat record for securing foreign orders of military hardware either.

[mingo]

Sad but true, I do not anticipate a time when ANY American administration will stop kissing Israel's ass. My sister, who converted to Judaism in her late 20s, (she's 67 now) refers to Obama as "That God Damned Arab" because apparently when he kisses Israel's ass, he doesn't use quite enough tongue.

[K. A. Pital]

That God Damned Arab

Well, at least not "Muslim".

So, if China and Russia were to veto a resolution condemning the Iranian nuclear weapons program, I guess that would mean China and Russia support Iran having nuclear weapons?

Thanas changed the title, but such a veto would indicate that Russia and China have no principal opposition to Iran having nuclear weapons. A fine line, but it is an indication of support.

Like this incident, for example: "...the United States wished things to turn out as they did, and worked to bring this about. The Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook [with regard to the invasion of East Timor]. This task was given to me, and I carried it forward with not inconsiderable success." (D.P. Moynihan)

Blocking any sort of actions in the UN means you do lend a modicum of support.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Israel benötigt mehr Lebensraum!

[NomAnor15]

Israel benötigt mehr Lebensraum!

blah blah blah Nazis blah blah blah t3h ev0l j00z!!1!1!

Do you ever say anything original or constructive?

[Bakustra]

Israel benötigt mehr Lebensraum!

blah blah blah Nazis blah blah blah t3h ev0l j00z!!1!1!

Do you ever say anything original or constructive?

You're buying into the construct of Israel as not only a Jewish state, but also THE Jewish state, against which no Jew may stand and remain Jewish. In fact, calling it a Jewish state at all is a misnomer- it is far more an Orthodox Jewish state, with marriage rights being denied Reform and Conservative Jews, let alone culturally but non-religiously Jewish individuals being denied burial in Jewish cemeteries. Israel can be criticized without criticizing Jews as a whole, and indeed they deserve criticism for pushing that belief upon the world.

Also, Israel is well on the way to being an apartheid state. Just wanted to throw that one out there.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Do you ever say anything original or constructive?

There's nothing constructive to say about Israel, the Palestinians offered them everything they ever desired including ceding their claims on all settlement projects currently under work in return for self determination. This was denied by the Israelis since it would mean ceding control of the Palestinian airspace and would require giving the Palestinians the ability to see to their own security. Israel has no redeeming qualities and your attempts to smear me as an antisemite are for naught, it's not because they're Jewish that I hate Israel, it's because they use it as justification to act like a bunch of thugs and bullies.

[Zaune]

blah blah blah Nazis blah blah blah t3h ev0l j00z!!1!1!

Do you ever say anything original or constructive?

Do please feel free to enlighten us on how Israel has some genuine moral justification for turning Gaza into something that looks very much like the Warsaw Ghetto.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Do you ever say anything original or constructive?

There's nothing constructive to say about Israel, the Palestinians offered them everything they ever desired including ceding their claims on all settlement projects currently under work in return for self determination

What, you mean in the wikileaks documents which have been publibly denied by Abbas, let alone Hammas?

[Ritterin Sophia]

You say that as if Israel or Hamas can be trusted, Wikileaks has far more credibility than either.

[Phantasee]

I thought the Palestine Papers were leaked to Al Jazeera?

[Ritterin Sophia]

I thought the Palestine Papers were leaked to Al Jazeera?

Were they? I was just trusting him at his word.

Appears they were. I just got done saying how Israel isn't trustworthy and trusted DEATH.

[NomAnor15]

Do you ever say anything original or constructive?

There's nothing constructive to say about Israel, the Palestinians offered them everything they ever desired including ceding their claims on all settlement projects currently under work in return for self determination. This was denied by the Israelis since it would mean ceding control of the Palestinian airspace and would require giving the Palestinians the ability to see to their own security. Israel has no redeeming qualities and your attempts to smear me as an antisemite are for naught, it's not because they're Jewish that I hate Israel, it's because they use it as justification to act like a bunch of thugs and bullies.

You mean like the Arabs did to every single offer Israel ever forwarded, up to and including a return to pre-1967 borders? Oh wait, that would require recognition that Israel might actually be interested in negotiating, which is clearly an impossibility.

Besides, that's not the point. I'm not saying that Israel can do no wrong, fuckwit. What I'm saying is all I hear from this board is "grr Israel bad!!" without any suggestions for a solution that doesn't completely screw over one side or the other. Maybe you should try actually providing some insight, instead of doing nothing but point out problems.

Do please feel free to enlighten us on how Israel has some genuine moral justification for turning Gaza into something that looks very much like the Warsaw Ghetto.

See above. I never said it was justified. All I said was no one is willing to suggest real solutions. All people want to do is bash on Israel so they can feel self-righteous, without actually having to think things through.

Also, Israel is well on the way to being an apartheid state. Just wanted to throw that one out there.

Right, because no country in the world has ever been divided up by ethnicity before

[Bakustra]

Do you ever say anything original or constructive?

There's nothing constructive to say about Israel, the Palestinians offered them everything they ever desired including ceding their claims on all settlement projects currently under work in return for self determination. This was denied by the Israelis since it would mean ceding control of the Palestinian airspace and would require giving the Palestinians the ability to see to their own security. Israel has no redeeming qualities and your attempts to smear me as an antisemite are for naught, it's not because they're Jewish that I hate Israel, it's because they use it as justification to act like a bunch of thugs and bullies.

You mean like the Arabs did to every single offer Israel ever forwarded, up to and including a return to pre-1967 borders? Oh wait, that would require recognition that Israel might actually be interested in negotiating, which is clearly an impossibility.

Besides, that's not the point. I'm not saying that Israel can do no wrong, fuckwit. What I'm saying is all I hear from this board is "grr Israel bad!!" without any suggestions for a solution that doesn't completely screw over one side or the other. Maybe you should try actually providing some insight, instead of doing nothing but point out problems.[/qupte]

Here's a solution: Israel gets the fuck out of Palestine. Withdraws all its settlers, stops encouraging settlements, and acknowledges the independence of Palestine and its equality on the world stage without trying to control it further. Bam! You just removed the main provocations that groups like Hamas are able to exploit to gain power. If Israel or the USA were, god forbid, to invest in developing Palestine, then the crushing poverty would alleviated and remove another problem. Of course, if this does happen without some kind of violent revolution or other use of force, I will eat a hat.

Also, Israel is well on the way to being an apartheid state. Just wanted to throw that one out there.

Right, because no country in the world has ever been divided up by ethnicity before

You take my little shot at you out of context while ignoring the meat of my post. Well, I guess it worked as intended then. Yes, countries such as South Africa, the USA, and Australia have been severely divided ethnically. I'm glad that Israel is taking inspiration from these classic purveyors of FREEDOM in their struggle against the devilish forces of ANTIFREEDOM as represented by Palestinians.

PS: Dividing a country ethnically while claiming it to be still one country is a large part of apartheid. Walling off ethnic enclaves, establishing client "states" that pretend to be independent, institutionalizing discrimination against said ethnicities, and I don't even know why I added the qualifier anymore.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I thought the Palestine Papers were leaked to Al Jazeera?

Were they? I was just trusting him at his word.

Appears they were. I just got done saying how Israel isn't trustworthy and trusted DEATH.

1. So I forgot who leaked it, it was a mistake, not a deception
2. Trusting a Jew was your second mistake (your first was not killing me when you had the chance )

[Ritterin Sophia]

You mean like the Arabs did to every single offer Israel ever forwarded, up to and including a return to pre-1967 borders? Oh wait, that would require recognition that Israel might actually be interested in negotiating, which is clearly an impossibility.

Well for one, you seem to think acting like a bunch of thugs because someone else did it before is okay, that's how this shit started if you actually cared to remember when the largely Ashkenazim and the Sephardim pretty much stole fifty percent of the land despite being 33% of the population (They have an actual claim now that the vast majority are Mizrahi thanks to extensive intermixing) through terrorist acts. For two, Israel isn't interested in negotiating this, the Palestine Papers prove this.

Besides, that's not the point. I'm not saying that Israel can do no wrong, fuckwit. What I'm saying is all I hear from this board is "grr Israel bad!!" without any suggestions for a solution that doesn't completely screw over one side or the other. Maybe you should try actually providing some insight, instead of doing nothing but point out problems.

BECAUSE THEY AREN'T INTERESTED IN NEGOTIATING YOU MORONIC FUCK! The Palestinians offered to cede all claims on the illegal settlements, the only difference between the status quo and this offer was Palestine would be allowed to see to their own security and airspace, you know LIKE A REAL COUNTRY! The Israelis told them to fuck off. The Israelis aren't interested in a two-state solution, they want to take the whole shebang and consign the Palestinians to as small a parcel of useless land as they possibly can.

[NomAnor15]

Well for one, you seem to think acting like a bunch of thugs because someone else did it before is okay, that's how this shit started if you actually cared to remember when the largely Ashkenazim and the Sephardim pretty much stole fifty percent of the land despite being 33% of the population (They have an actual claim now that the vast majority are Mizrahi thanks to extensive intermixing) through terrorist acts. For two, Israel isn't interested in negotiating this, the Palestine Papers prove this.

Fifty percent of what land, dumbass? And 33% of what population? Modern day Israel? The British Mandate? The Ottoman Empire? How far back do you want to go? Over a dozen countries were carved out of that area, most of them in the early twentieth century. Way to selectively ignore history to support your opinion though, that's some impressive ignorance. Not to mention your fucked up idea of what constitutes terrorism.

BECAUSE THEY AREN'T INTERESTED IN NEGOTIATING YOU MORONIC FUCK! The Palestinians offered to cede all claims on the illegal settlements, the only difference between the status quo and this offer was Palestine would be allowed to see to their own security and airspace, you know LIKE A REAL COUNTRY! The Israelis told them to fuck off. The Israelis aren't interested in a two-state solution, they want to take the whole shebang and consign the Palestinians to as small a parcel of useless land as they possibly can.

Oh boo-hoo, the Palestinians are the only people who were ever wronged. Yeah fucking right. Where was this outrage when all the Arab countries rejected every offer Israel ever made (until it was obvious they couldn't destroy Israel outright)? Get your head out of your ass and get back to me when you've learned some fucking history.

You take my little shot at you out of context while ignoring the meat of my post. Well, I guess it worked as intended then. Yes, countries such as South Africa, the USA, and Australia have been severely divided ethnically. I'm glad that Israel is taking inspiration from these classic purveyors of FREEDOM in their struggle against the devilish forces of ANTIFREEDOM as represented by Palestinians.

PS: Dividing a country ethnically while claiming it to be still one country is a large part of apartheid. Walling off ethnic enclaves, establishing client "states" that pretend to be independent, institutionalizing discrimination against said ethnicities, and I don't even know why I added the qualifier anymore.

Except that the Palestinian territories aren't part of Israel proper. Let me put this as bluntly as I can; I don't want Israeli settlements in the West Bank anymore than you do. In an ideal world, there would be two states, and Jerusalem would be administered by a neutral third party. But this isn't an ideal world, and however much it may suck, we have to live in reality. And the reality is, the Palestinian authorities are incapable of controlling their own populace. When that happens, let me know, and I'll be the first one to support their independence.

[SCRawl]

It is at this point that I, the responsible moderator, will remind all participants that re-hashing the IvP history here will result in nothing good for said participants.

EDIT: Just to clarify: it's Posting Rule 8 that I'm invoking here. For those not familiar with it (and you should be if you're posting), the basic rules are here. Current events are fine, recent history is fine, dredging up the '60s (for example) will make moderators unhappy.

[Serafina]

Oh boo-hoo, the Palestinians are the only people who were ever wronged. Yeah fucking right. Where was this outrage when all the Arab countries rejected every offer Israel ever made (until it was obvious they couldn't destroy Israel outright)? Get your head out of your ass and get back to me when you've learned some fucking history.

Okay, how would you feel if i said this about the Holocaust:
"Oh boo-hoo, the Jews are the only people who were ever wronged. Yeah fucking right. Get your head out of your ass and get back to me when you've learned some fucking history".
Now i would never said that - just because bad things happend to you, you have no right to do these same things to someone else. Which is exactly why YOU should learn some history. The behaviour of Israel (troughout, oh, almost all of it's modern history) is NOT acceptable - and if you do not care about human beings, then studying said history would tell you that you are NOT doing yourself a favor with those actions.

Fifty percent of what land, dumbass? And 33% of what population? Modern day Israel? The British Mandate? The Ottoman Empire? How far back do you want to go? Over a dozen countries were carved out of that area, most of them in the early twentieth century. Way to selectively ignore history to support your opinion though, that's some impressive ignorance. Not to mention your fucked up idea of what constitutes terrorism.

Familiarize yourself with UN-Resolution 181. This is what BOTH Israelite and Palestine original land claims, and therefore their existence as legitimate states are based upon (of course, Israel is denying Palestine this existence).
Israel has been ignoring this resolution for decades.

Except that the Palestinian territories aren't part of Israel proper. Let me put this as bluntly as I can; I don't want Israeli settlements in the West Bank anymore than you do. In an ideal world, there would be two states, and Jerusalem would be administered by a neutral third party. But this isn't an ideal world, and however much it may suck, we have to live in reality. And the reality is, the Palestinian authorities are incapable of controlling their own populace. When that happens, let me know, and I'll be the first one to support their independence.

You know WHY they are incapable of "controlling their own populce"? Because Israel is denying them the means to do so.
Israel is the party that has been sabotaging that orignally planned solution for decades. The Palestines were willing to make every reasonable concession - but the very reason Isreal denied them their solution is what you are blaming on the Palestines here: They do not WANT a palestine state with their own security forces. Of course, without security forces, how are you going to controll your populace?



Edit:
Sorry SCRawl, i didn't notice your post before i posted mine.

[cosmicalstorm]

The Pallies are fucked. The ones in Gaza I guess can siphon into Egypt. The others, I don't know. At this point I can't see anything, certainly no moral arguments however valid they may be, that will move Israel as it's sitting on a pile of nukes and a political system that is pretty fucking crazy. They will continue to push the pallies away, the US will continue to support Israel for another couple of years, at least ten or twenty. And looking at the demographics in Israel I've come to understand they will have to forbid a sizeable portion of their own population from voting in order to deny the Arab segment any influence. God what a fucking mess. I feel truly sorry for all the nice people on both sides who have been caught in this clusterfuck.

[Metahive]

Saddam absolutely had to be dealt with by the US because he was a warmonger threatening local political stability and mean to his subjects while totally possessing WMDs. Unlike Israel that's entirely inhabited by unarmed peace doves, treats every single one of its inhabitants like royalty and always was a stabilising factor in the region. It must be like that because surely the doubleplusgood universally accepted world policeman USA would never dare to hold onto any appalingly hypocritical double standards.

[Thanas]

It is at this point that I, the responsible moderator, will remind all participants that re-hashing the IvP history here will result in nothing good for said participants.

EDIT: Just to clarify: it's Posting Rule 8 that I'm invoking here. For those not familiar with it (and you should be if you're posting), the basic rules are here. Current events are fine, recent history is fine, dredging up the '60s (for example) will make moderators unhappy.

See bolded part.

No post so far has violated the IVP moratorium.