[PDD] Traitor (SPOILERS)

[His Divine Shadow]

Hey Crazy Wasey, stop this bullshit right now, Lucasfilm policy is clear, if you can't do anything else than keep on about the same irrelevant points, leave the thread, now.
Your opinion afterall, is irrelevant in the face of the law, and I would say that the spirit of SW is on "our side" this time too.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Well Vasey, it would appear that HDS has you cornered on this one. Thus, I think I'm going to have to go with the "One Force" theory, unless somebody can bring up some damn good evidence against it, or unless EpIII shows me otherwise.

[Cal Wright]

From the very first draft of Star Wars there was a light and dark side of the force and no amount of EU blatherings is going to change it.

In other words "LALALALA I CAAN'T HEAAR YOU!"

According to the EU there are no sides to the Force. According to the Movies there is a light and a dark side. Who can't hear who?

[Crazy_Vasey]

Doesn't seem like they are doing that to me, then again, what do you know about quality? You're just another purist fanatic.

That’s the biggest crock of shit I’ve heard so far. If I was a purist I wouldn’t own somewhere in the area sixty star wars novels. Unlike the TPM bashers that went to see the film 15 times to find something to complain about I don’t buy something unless I actually expect to get some enjoyment from it.

No, I believe that this is what they believe, that it's truth, no one knows.

Yeah it’s what the believe and it’s what thousands upon thousands of years of learning have came up with. I’ll take that over someone who’s been tortured within an inch of their life and then been assimilated into a barbarically primitive culture who has had their beliefs and morals changed by the experience.

No, you've not, since it's uncontradicted by the movies, it's actually canon, you've just chosen to selectively ignore evidence.

It’s only not contradicted by the movies in that they didn’t have a line in the opening scrolls for one of them saying that specifically there is a dark and light side. This theory relies on every Lucas created character not knowing their arse from their elbow as far as the force goes and I am not going to accept it as the gospel truth like you have. Ever considered that vergere might be lying to manipulate Jacen? Or that she might just be plain wrong after having her viewpoint distorted by the Vong?

There is no Dark Side, that guy fell to himself and his own darkness, he was not ready, merely a child tampering with forces he could not possibly understand.

Whatever you say, of course this guy is so inferior to the likes of Vergere and Jacen.

Read the book, then speak, otherwise, don't.
You have NO idea what you are speaking of here I see.
Oh the book so perfectly makes sense and if you don't read it, you will never understand.

Jacen says in the last pages "There's got to be a simpler way though" and Vergere says that maybe this is what he will teach her, now that her stundent has surpassed her.

Then again, this fits so much better for me, since I've seen so much in the books and movies that simply does not work with this primitive Dark/Light separation of the the force.

Oh for fucks sake.

That book on my shelf must be a figment of my imagination then I guess.

Yes the book makes sense because an excellent author who has studied philosophy in great detail writes it very well.

Yes this new philosophy is more realistic and in reality would make more sense.

But Star Wars isn’t reality it is what Lucas created and he created a force with light and dark sides. I for one don’t appreciate EU authors trying to retroactively mess with things and belittle what came before.

The policy wich has stayed the same for the past several years you mean?

Lemme see which one is it today, is it the everything is canon, the EU is offical not canon or the EU is a parallel universe. They wouldn’t be having arguments every other week on star wars forum about whether the EU is canon or not if the policy was stable.

The quality control can't help if the writer sucks, it can only undo the worst offenses to continuity in the book, not stop it.

If an author isn’t coming up with the goods his book should be cancelled and doled out to someone else to write who will come up with the goods.

Three different teams? What the hell are you talking about?

The EU has had three different teams steal the death star plans. First it was Kyle Katarn, then it was Bria Tharen and there was another one who I can’t remember right now, might be a team at Toprawa.

Of course it has been retroactively fixed now with each team stealing a part of the plans but it was a real howler to let them all slip through.

[His Divine Shadow]

According to the EU there are no sides to the Force. According to the Movies there is a light and a dark side. Who can't hear who?

I still don't see a contradiction aywhere, it's clear in the book that all the Jedi and even Sith thought of it this way, your argument hinges on the infallibility of the characters, and ignores the bigger picture.

Yet one can clearly see that this light/dark separation is a non-functional concept in real life, the quote I provided on that clearly illustrates this.

I find the dark light notion almost insulting to something like the force, it's much bigger than what mere humans might impose on it.

And given the monumental changes this brings in, I doubt it would ever have been cleared if it was just something the author brought up.
And seeing how nicely it meshes with the movies, I am inclined to think that Lucas himself had a part in all this.

And as I said previously, this is not an EU bashing thread, it's about the book Traitor.
Take it somewhere else, I believe there already is an official EU bashing thread somewhere.

[His Divine Shadow]

You still here? Did you miss what I just said, I created this thread, I do not want an EU bashing thread.

That’s the biggest crock of shit I’ve heard so far. If I was a purist I wouldn’t own somewhere in the area sixty star wars novels. Unlike the TPM bashers that went to see the film 15 times to find something to complain about I don’t buy something unless I actually expect to get some enjoyment from it.

I enojyed TPM.
I also enjoyed about every EU book I've bought and I consider it a true and real part of the SW universe and this latest thing was something I've suspected for years prior.

Yeah it’s what the believe and it’s what thousands upon thousands of years of learning have came up with. I’ll take that over someone who’s been tortured within an inch of their life and then been assimilated into a barbarically primitive culture who has had their beliefs and morals changed by the experience.

And as we clearly see here, you are fumbling totally in the dark without the SLIGHTEST clue as to what truly goes on in the book, read it, then come back.

It’s only not contradicted by the movies in that they didn’t have a line in the opening scrolls for one of them saying that specifically there is a dark and light side. This theory relies on every Lucas created character not knowing their arse from their elbow as far as the force goes and I am not going to accept it as the gospel truth like you have. Ever considered that vergere might be lying to manipulate Jacen? Or that she might just be plain wrong after having her viewpoint distorted by the Vong?

No this theory just shows how complicated and realistic Lucas universe truly is.
You say she has had her viewpoints changed by the Vong? Yet she betrays them too?

Whatever you say, of course this guy is so inferior to the likes of Vergere and Jacen.

Actually, he is, or he was evil.

Oh for fucks sake.
That book on my shelf must be a figment of my imagination then I guess.

WTF?!?!
You meant you've read it and you still pull stunts like what you just pulled above there? That betrayed a total ignorance of the books true meaning.

Yes the book makes sense because an excellent author who has studied philosophy in great detail writes it very well.
Yes this new philosophy is more realistic and in reality would make more sense.
But Star Wars isn’t reality it is what Lucas created and he created a force with light and dark sides. I for one don’t appreciate EU authors trying to retroactively mess with things and belittle what came before.

That, is your unproven opinion, I could as easily say that Lucas himself thought it up.
Plus you keep on saying that the author is the one who comes up with things like that, I wish to see your proof for that, especially in how there is a rough NJO outline that the writers have to follow, Troy Dennings for example was told to kill of a major character.

Lemme see which one is it today, is it the everything is canon, the EU is offical not canon or the EU is a parallel universe. They wouldn’t be having arguments every other week on star wars forum about whether the EU is canon or not if the policy was stable.

Lemme see, you still have brought no proof to bear, this was just another one of your wild claimes with a condescending undertone then.

If an author isn’t coming up with the goods his book should be cancelled and doled out to someone else to write who will come up with the goods.

Why do you think KJA will never write another SW book?

The EU has had three different teams steal the death star plans. First it was Kyle Katarn, then it was Bria Tharen and there was another one who I can’t remember right now, might be a team at Toprawa.

Of course it has been retroactively fixed now with each team stealing a part of the plans but it was a real howler to let them all slip through.

The first one was a game, there are no quality controlls there, I dunno about the second, but I guess that could have been fitted in the first place.
I've never heard of a third one.

And this is the end of this discussion.

[Crazy_Vasey]

I enojyed TPM.
I also enjoyed about every EU book I've bought and I consider it a true and real part of the SW universe and this latest thing was something I've suspected for years prior.

Fine that’s your prerogative but I was always more than satisfied with what Lucas came up with in his scripts regarding the force.

and as we clearly see here, you are fumbling totally in the dark without the SLIGHTEST clue as to what truly goes on in the book, read it, then come back.

What you’re saying she wasn’t tortured? She says as much to Jacen when he’s in the embrace of pain. She’s lived with them for fifty years and I really doubt that she managed to get the title of Jedi Knight with her current beliefs and morals, more likely she’d be drummed out of the order or executed for gross misuse of the force after some of the things she did to try and manipulate Jacen over to her viewpoint so yeah she has been changed by what the Vong did to her I’d say.

No this theory just shows how complicated and realistic Lucas universe truly is.
You say she has had her viewpoints changed by the Vong? Yet she betrays them too?

I find it hard to believe that we’re supposed to accept this theory when it sounds an awful lot like what a dark side user would say as an excuse.

Just because she’s had her viewpoints changed by her time with them doesn’t mean she wouldn’t betray them.

Actually, he is, or he was evil.

or the exact same fate awaits Jacen and Vergere as they believe they can control the dark side and then end up being its servant.

Isn’t that part of how Vader fell?

That, is your unproven opinion, I could as easily say that Lucas himself thought it up.
Plus you keep on saying that the author is the one who comes up with things like that, I wish to see your proof for that, especially in how there is a rough NJO outline that the writers have to follow, Troy Dennings for example was told to kill of a major character.

Or I could say that it’s what it said in the star wars scripts…

I said the author did a very good job of making it sound right not that he came up with the idea. If a lesser author had written the book it wouldn’t have came off at all IMO.

Yes I know Troy Denning was instructed to kill off someone as was R.A Salvatore when he wrote Vector prime. I’m not a complete idiot.

Lemme see, you still have brought no proof to bear, this was just another one of your wild claimes with a condescending undertone then.

Okay then you want proof I’ll give you it.

The EU is official not canon is used in all the Vs debates and is noted on the SWTC site so do I need to back that one up?

According to Lucas Licensing Editor Sue Rostoni from Gamer #6, "Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays." Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon.

That’s the everything is equal canon quote.

"There are two worlds here," explains Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe-the licensing world of books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I dont get to involved in the parallel universe."

That’s the parallel universe quote, from farscape magazine July 2002.

Happy now?

Why do you think KJA will never write another SW book?

After four adult novels, a ton of comics and a boatload of young readers novels it’s about fucking time. Still it depends on who gets the franchise next when Del Ray’s license runs out in 2005 or so.

The first one was a game, there are no quality controlls there, I dunno about the second, but I guess that could have been fitted in the first place.
I've never heard of a third one.

I’m pretty sure there is a third one but either way it’s a blunder and a half.

[Mr Bean]

Agreed this is an EU bashing thread if you have issue with EU go yell at Lucusarts(who aproves the books and lets them get that nice tag cannon lit on them) or the author himself not HDS or this board, if you intend on debating him please do that but don't bash the EU, HDS does not have to defend it, rather he seems to do it simply to pass the time

[SirNitram]

Allow me to offer a simple explanation.

Vergere wants to corrupt Jacen, so tells him there is only The Force, and the 'Dark Side' is just the more powerful one, there is no Darkness but himself.

Jacen draws on Dark Side.

Jacen is corrupted.

Vergere has corrupted one of Skywalkers.

Trala.

[His Divine Shadow]

What you’re saying she wasn’t tortured? She says as much to Jacen when he’s in the embrace of pain. She’s lived with them for fifty years and I really doubt that she managed to get the title of Jedi Knight with her current beliefs and morals, more likely she’d be drummed out of the order or executed for gross misuse of the force after some of the things she did to try and manipulate Jacen over to her viewpoint so yeah she has been changed by what the Vong did to her I’d say.

The Embrace of pain didn't turn her into a tool for the Yuuzhan Vong did it? No, she found something they never suspected.
And as she said, the only way to learn was the hard way, cruel, yes, neccesary, yes.

At any rate, you won't know for certain until the NJO is over, I however am pretty certain that Vergere is honest.

I find it hard to believe that we’re supposed to accept this theory when it sounds an awful lot like what a dark side user would say as an excuse.
Just because she’s had her viewpoints changed by her time with them doesn’t mean she wouldn’t betray them.

We shall see, I for one find it extremely unlikely, the book and everything leading up to seems that they found the meaning of life or something to that effect.

or the exact same fate awaits Jacen and Vergere as they believe they can control the dark side and then end up being its servant.
Isn’t that part of how Vader fell?

They have already gained a new understanding of the force and the universe, that one didn't, and there is no controlling the darkside, it's the person himself.

Or I could say that it’s what it said in the star wars scripts…

I said the author did a very good job of making it sound right not that he came up with the idea. If a lesser author had written the book it wouldn’t have came off at all IMO.

You could say that, but what does it prove? Lucas has been expanding and improving on his universe for ages, who's to say he did not come up with this.

Okay then you want proof I’ll give you it.

The EU is official not canon is used in all the Vs debates and is noted on the SWTC site so do I need to back that one up?

But we all know what official means, don't we?

According to Lucas Licensing Editor Sue Rostoni from Gamer #6, "Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays." Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon.

That’s the everything is equal canon quote.

"There are two worlds here," explains Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe-the licensing world of books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I dont get to involved in the parallel universe."

That’s the parallel universe quote, from farscape magazine July 2002.

It was said that Lucas talked about events that conflicted with his vision, and so far I have not detected anything that can be considered a true confilct here, since we don't even know if it was Lucas doing or not here.

Lucas also said:
According to George Lucas, in the introduction to the 1994 printing of Splinter of the Mind’s Eye:
"After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story – however many films it took to tell – was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga"

After four adult novels, a ton of comics and a boatload of young readers novels it’s about fucking time. Still it depends on who gets the franchise next when Del Ray’s license runs out in 2005 or so.

Maybe Zahn, they are bringing him back for more novels.

[His Divine Shadow]

Allow me to offer a simple explanation.

Vergere wants to corrupt Jacen, so tells him there is only The Force, and the 'Dark Side' is just the more powerful one, there is no Darkness but himself.

Jacen draws on Dark Side.

Jacen is corrupted.

Vergere has corrupted one of Skywalkers.

Trala.

Yet, she didn't, Jacen most definitly was not dark in any way in the book or when it ended.
Well, d'uh considering there is no darkside.

[His Divine Shadow]

Damn, I double posted, someone remove the first post please, secondly, I thought this was supposed to end, now.
Or I'll have a mod close this thread.

[Mr. B]

I read traitor this weekend and I think it is one of the best NJO books. But the what happened to Coruscant REALLY PISSED ME OFF.

And I liked Ganners last stand and what happened to Nom Anor, the bastard.

[Mr Bean]

Done! (Wiggles Fingers to no effect)

Oh thats right I use the monkey to do that for me

[Mr. B]

Done! (Wiggles Fingers to no effect)

Oh thats right I use the monkey to do that for me

Wow, David is actually useful for something.

[David]

Quite frankly, I think Traitor was one of the best EU books ever written. I even started a thread about it. I guess no one noticed it.


Anyways, to the matter at hand.


Your dp was corrected HDS.


Crazy seems to be critisizing ya'll's viewpoints on the book, which is okay, as long as the critisizism is constructive. The point of this forum is to debate things, and not simply to gush over them. I'll leave this thread open for now.


CV: Whatever you might think about NJO, Lucas brought it into being and he is watching over how the story is told. All EU is submitted to Lucas for approval, and if he doesn't like it, it is not printed. He wrote a 300 page book for every NJO author that gives them the basic storyline for the series, what they can and cannot do, and what they are to work toward. That comes straight off Aaron Allston's and other EU authors home sites. Keep it civil, but I won't punish you for giving your opinion and making observations about the series. ~ David

[Mr Bean]

Apprenty David feels Like today is a *Yellow day

[David]

I use yellow when I'm acting in my capacity as a mod.

[Crazy_Vasey]

That 300-page bible as far as I am aware was created as a result of several meetings between the original NJO authors, Del Ray staff and a few lucasfilm guys.

http://theforce.net/jedicouncil/intervi ... ore1.shtml

This interview with R.A. Salvatore seems to back me up on that, he was pretty important in the creation of the NJO seemingly and he makes no mention of Lucas being personally involved at all. He does mention in the second part that they had to go high to get permission to kill Chewie but that seems to be it.

[His Divine Shadow]

That 300-page bible as far as I am aware was created as a result of several meetings between the original NJO authors, Del Ray staff and a few lucasfilm guys.

OK then, as for the force, we dunno.
Anyone got Lucas' phone number?

[Lord_Xerxes]

I want to start this post off by explaining how much I do love the EU. I like the NJO series, even though there are points to it that I do not like. Now, I'm not as far down the line as 'Traitor', but I went through this thread to get a more clear idea about what all the talk about this book is about. After reading the quoted info that was posted from the book, and the majority of the posts...I have to say that this is the first time that I really don't enjoy something that the EU has made.

I would have to agree with what someone said when they mentioned that perhaps Vergere is trying to corrupt Jacen. What if she herself is in the Dark Side, and all this talk is just to blow smoke up Jacen's ass? If she made him believe that there was no Dark Side, it would be so much easier for him to fall into it. I really hope that's where they're going with this. It seems like from where I am in the series (Just finnished Dark Journey...I know I'm far behind. I work full time too, and have a relationship...so reading time is cut down.) that characters falling into the Dark Side or giving in may be the only way to turn the tide of the Vong invasion.

As far as my personal feelings on this concept...I really think this is just another way for a book/game/etc to try and throw in the concept that there can be 'Grey' Jedi that can use both sides of the Force without consequence. I'm going to have to agree with Crazy on this one, this is just pure shit. And it's the first time I've really be let down by the NJO or the EU to this degree. (thankfully, I was advised to avoid the KJA book/s. by friends).

[His Divine Shadow]

I would have to agree with what someone said when they mentioned that perhaps Vergere is trying to corrupt Jacen. What if she herself is in the Dark Side, and all this talk is just to blow smoke up Jacen's ass?

Extremely unlikely, and I am sure the following books will prove me right in that regard.

As far as my personal feelings on this concept...I really think this is just another way for a book/game/etc to try and throw in the concept that there can be 'Grey' Jedi that can use both sides of the Force without consequence.

I don't, because even the movies shows that dividing things into light and dark is not a very good concept with regards to reality, and I think that since even the movies and reality itself hints at this, that it's not as cut and dried here as people like to think.

Ofcourse I can see that it's very hard to have one's foundations shaken like that, hatred and denial are the two most likely outcomes.

And there are consequences to everything, light and dark, anyone who thinks this just means they can go crazy with the ahem..... Dark side... is sorely misstaken.

I'm going to have to agree with Crazy on this one, this is just pure shit. And it's the first time I've really be let down by the NJO or the EU to this degree. (thankfully, I was advised to avoid the KJA book/s. by friends).

I'm going to have to agre with the other 99.9% of the readers and say this is the best book ever and it's confirmed what I have suspected since the movies.

[Mr Bean]

Face it this series of books is a much more mature than the avarage SW series, People getting killed(Main charaters no less) The goverment is hopelessly corrupt and its OBVIOUS that they are this is almost dare I say it? A grown up mans SW with intrigue and deeper issues that the normal "deep" issue such as Zahn began nosing around with during VOTF

BTW Zahn not writing one of the NJ books but a prequile right?

[His Divine Shadow]

yes, zahn is writing some prequels, wich sucks, cause I want zahn in the NJO!

[Crayz9000]

We can look at this another way. According to Yoda, the Dark Side is fueled by anger and agression. The main quality of the Light Side, in contrast, is compassion, although you may be forced to defend yourself at times.

When a Jedi remains in control of himself and his emotions, and is careful never to act in anger or agression, he remains in the "Light Side." But when he allows his anger to take over, that is when he falls. And once he loses that self-control, it is difficult to regain. He will always be tempted by the anger-fueled power that he once used. The deeper he falls, the harder it is to return.

Look at Anakin. Even after Episode II, you could still call him a "Light" Jedi. Yet he has been tainted by the Dark Side; he already lost his self-control and gave in to his anger. All Palpatine needs to do is push him a little bit farther, and he will fall completely. If there were no external forces in operation--like Palpatine--then yes, Anakin Skywalker might have remained in control of himself.

Thus you might say that both perspectives are correct. As Obi-Wan said, "correct, from a different point of view."