Latest in the whale wars

[mr friendly guy]

The Whale wars was a show showcasing environmental group Sea Shepherd against Japanese Whalers. From what I gather, they manage to decrease the number of whales killed, although the whalers adapted their tactics. This time it appears as close to a victory as they are going to get.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/world ... ss&emc=rss

With Whaling Ships Under Attack, Japan Will Recall Fleet
Simon Ager/Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, via Associated Press

An environmentalist aimed a slingshot to unleash red paint at the Japanese whaling ship Nisshin Maru in the Antarctic Ocean.
By MARTIN FACKLER
Published: February 18, 2011


TOKYO — Japan will cut short this year’s annual whale hunt in the Antarctic Ocean after obstruction by an environmental group largely prevented its ships from killing whales, the government said Friday.

The Agriculture Ministry, which runs Japan’s widely criticized research whaling program, said harassment by the group, the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, had kept its catch far below its annual target of whales. A spokesman for the ministry said on Friday that 170 minke whales and two fin whales had been caught this season, far below the annual targets of 850 minke and 50 fin.

The recall of Japan’s fleet is the first time that environmentalists have succeeded in cutting short the annual hunts, which Japan says are necessary for scientific research. Critics say the hunts are an effort to evade a global moratorium on commercial whaling.

Friday’s announcement was welcomed by Sea Shepherd, which is based in Washington State. In a statement on its Web site, the group said three of its ships would remain in the Southern Ocean to “escort” the Japanese fleet northward.

In recent years, Sea Shepherd has sent ships to the Antarctic to block Japan’s whaling fleet, turning the hunts into a game of cat-and-mouse that has received increasing media attention. The environmentalists try to block the Japanese by tangling the ships’ propellers with ropes or putting their own vessels in between the whalers and their quarry.

The ministry said the group had harassed the Japanese ships by shining laser beams to temporarily blind crew members and throwing flares onto the whaling vessels. Agriculture Minister Michihiko Kano told reporters on Friday that the decision to recall the fleet was made to ensure the safety of the crews and ships.

The ministry said its whaling fleet had often been able to simply outrun the environmentalists. It could not do so this year because Sea Shepherd had faster vessels, the government said.

Japanese newspapers reported that there had been resistance to cutting short the hunt for fear of appearing to cave in to pressure from foreign environmentalists.

Domestic critics have called the program an anachronism, because private fishing companies have dropped out under international pressure and the demand for whale meat is declining. Few Japanese eat whale anymore, and the meat from the hunt has piled up in freezers, or been given to children for school lunches.

Makiko Inoue contributed reporting.

[Darth Fanboy]

Good for Sea Shepherd on this one, i'm fucking sick and tired of these hunts, especially the fact that they explicity state they are targeting endangered Fin Whales. There's no responsible science that would allow that type of a cull to begin with. The Minke Whale isn't nearly as threatened as a species but the way they catch them is outright horrifying, and from what I have seen they don't discriminate when targeting mothers with calves.

[mr friendly guy]

I wonder how Sea Shepherd's success (assuming the Japanese don't change their mind for this year) will affect other more um, legitimate groups like Greenpeace. Will more environmentalist types flock to Sea Shepherd because at least they do cut down the number of whales the Japanese ships can kill? While the Japanese may see Sea Shepherd as a terrorist organisation <snicker>, in Australia they are legitimate as far as I can tell. They regularly solicit donations when I go into Fremantle markets for lunch.

[Shroom Man 777]

They might go French and bomb the Rainbow Warrior while it is in port.

[mr friendly guy]

They might go French and bomb the Rainbow Warrior while it is in port.

Dude, thats a sissy Greenpeace ship. The Sea Shepherd ship is named the Steve Irwin, which is a manly and tough name. Granted the crocodile hunter most probably wasn't much in the brains department, but thats what the Captain is for.

I am not going to wank on our limited military capabilities, but we supply lots of food and minerals to Japans economy, namely iron ore. Japanese steel mills were shitting themselves at the thought that China might buy out large stock of Rio Tinto. Also with China limiting rare earths exports, we are another source for it. Japan won't risk ruining our relationship by doing their imitation of Francois Mitteran.

[The_Saint]

Not like port security here in Hobart could stop such a raid.

There was a beautiful picture front cover of the state paper last week, can't find a decent copy of it though there's a thumbnail here

Being the last port of call before heading out after the whaling fleet the word on the grape vine (and told to local news by the ship Captains) is the success this year was due to Sea Shepherds ships (except Gojira) being in place before the Japanese whalers made it into the area, something they hadn't achieved in previous years.

[Archaic`]

I wonder how Sea Shepherd's success (assuming the Japanese don't change their mind for this year) will affect other more um, legitimate groups like Greenpeace. Will more environmentalist types flock to Sea Shepherd because at least they do cut down the number of whales the Japanese ships can kill? While the Japanese may see Sea Shepherd as a terrorist organisation <snicker>, in Australia they are legitimate as far as I can tell. They regularly solicit donations when I go into Fremantle markets for lunch.

I really hope Sea Shepherd don't get more support from this. Regardless of what you might think about the hunts, Sea Shepherd's actions really are terrorism, and Australia's lack of condemnation of their actions is a black mark on our international relations.

Seriously, what their vessels are doing is not only incredibly dangerous, it's outright illegal. Attacking a ship in international waters, or forcibly boarding one, are among the most serious offenses in maritime law. Throwing ropes under a ship in order to foul it's propeller is just as bad. If not more serious given the context, given that they’re attempting to disable a ship in one of the most dangerous environments on Earth. Can you imagine the international repercussions if one of those Japanese whalers was to die because of the actions of these so-called "peaceful protestors", especially while Australia government is sitting there on the sidelines and giving implied silent approval for what they do?

The only reason they're not being called terrorists or pirates by the world at large is because they're "defending cuddly whales" instead of, say, going after oil transports in the gulf. Actually, let me use another analogy. What Sea Shepherd is doing here is the maritime equivalent of if Christian fundamentalists in the US were, in an effort to stop them getting to work, throwing chains at the car tires of planned parenthood workers and ramming their cars. These are malicious acts that put human life at extreme risks in order to justify a belief.

Honestly, there's a good reason our government here in Australia have been all talk and no action over this issue. They know that, if we were to take it to any international court, Australia would lose and lose big. We have no legitimate claim of jurisdiction over any of those waters. Our internationally recognized national borders extend nowhere near. The claims we do make are not recognized by Japan, or by the vast majority of nations in the world. Hell, that "Australian Whale Sanctuary” is recognised only by Australia and New Zealand. The “Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary”, which is not the same thing, is an area defined by the IWC, and no commercial whaling is allowed there by agreement, although whaling for scientific research is allowed. Whatever we may think about the worthiness (or lack thereof) of that research, we also have to recognize that the sale of whale meat under that is a legal requirement of said research. They're not allowed to let anything from the hunts to go to waste or they'd actually lose their permit to conduct scientific whaling, so all the parts of the whale not used as part of that research has to be given away or sold (with any profits only allowed to go to fund the expeditions and the research).

[tim31]

I'm on the fence over this; on the one hand, they're getting the results they want. As you say, it's international waters and they know the funding's going to keep rolling in.

But on the other hand? I fuckin' hate the way they swagger around town in their crew jackets as though they own the place.

[Skgoa]

Whatever we may think about the worthiness (or lack thereof) of that research, we also have to recognize that the sale of whale meat under that is a legal requirement of said research. They're not allowed to let anything from the hunts to go to waste or they'd actually lose their permit to conduct scientific whaling, so all the parts of the whale not used as part of that research has to be given away or sold (with any profits only allowed to go to fund the expeditions and the research).

Are you really that stupid?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Whatever we may think about the worthiness (or lack thereof) of that research, we also have to recognize that the sale of whale meat under that is a legal requirement of said research. They're not allowed to let anything from the hunts to go to waste or they'd actually lose their permit to conduct scientific whaling, so all the parts of the whale not used as part of that research has to be given away or sold (with any profits only allowed to go to fund the expeditions and the research).

Are you really that stupid?

Um, let me reiterate this. The "research" they publish does not require the taking of as many whales that they claim are necessary, nor the taking of whales which cannot be sustainably harvested. No animal research ethics committee in the world outside of japan would authorize their research, and they get away with it because they threaten to leave the IWC every year and start hunting UNREGULATED unless they are "permitted" to take what they wish, after a bit of haggling.

They dont do this for research. They are using the research clause in the IWC agreements/treaties as a smokescreen to commercially harvest whales in an unsustainable way. They will do the same thing when the world finally wakes up and realizes tuna fisheries need regulation, but put in a research clause.

[mr friendly guy]

A simple solution to the conundrum of selling whale meat is to...... simply not conduct scientific research which requires killing the whales. Man, can I get my Nobel Prize now? It would really look good next to my toy daleks and the starship enterprise.

Seriously, its been known for some time that whale meat is no longer that popular in Japan and they introduced it into school children's lunches because they have no where else to go. They aren't killing the whales to eat because they need to. They aren't even killing whales to eat because they like the taste. They are killing them to save fucking face. But then Japanese PMs ignore protests about visiting shrines which include dedications to war criminals. So pulling this type of bullshit to save face seems par for the course for the government.

If thats the case, recalling the whaling vessel appears to have cost them to lose more face. I am surprise they didn't perist whaling until the season is up and just put up with Sea Shepherd's antics and screw the costs.

In any event, fuck the Japanese Whaling Industry and the government departments that support it. Next time I see a Sea Shepherd person soliciting donations I am going to give them some of my loose change.

Oh, and its that time of year again.

[Archaic`]

Are you really that stupid?

Um, let me reiterate this. The "research" they publish does not require the taking of as many whales that they claim are necessary, nor the taking of whales which cannot be sustainably harvested. No animal research ethics committee in the world outside of japan would authorize their research, and they get away with it because they threaten to leave the IWC every year and start hunting UNREGULATED unless they are "permitted" to take what they wish, after a bit of haggling.

They dont do this for research. They are using the research clause in the IWC agreements/treaties as a smokescreen to commercially harvest whales in an unsustainable way. They will do the same thing when the world finally wakes up and realizes tuna fisheries need regulation, but put in a research clause.

For the record, I work under this guy as a tutor for classes on "Business Opportunities in Asia", so I hope you'll forgive me if I claim just a little more understanding of this whole issue from that association.

Article VIII of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling authorizes the signatory governments to grant permits for scientific research. Section 2 of that article expressly stipulates that any by-products (including whale meat, blubber, etc) be processed so far as is practical. Their processing and sale of whale meat is quite legal. What you seem to be suggesting is that they're knowingly catching more than necessary (so as to have extra by-product to process and sell), but that makes absolutely zero sense from an economic standpoint, considering it costs more to catch, kill and process the whales (even if you assumed no research was done and it was all sold on) than it returns in revenue.

In regards to the validity of the science, while there's certainly significant levels of disagreement about methods, etc, overall the scientific committee of the IWC isn't so strongly opposed to the research. The conclusions from the 2007 review of the JARPA programme were at worst neutral, and specifically state that they welcome additional research on these issues.

As for the lack of sustainability you claim here...what are your sources? I'll admit, that's one area where I'm not completely read up, but I know the Japanese claim the data from JARPA shows that their take of Minke for scientific research is sustainable, and I don't see anything in the JARPA review documents which disputes that.

Though of course, this is all rather beside the real point I was making in my original post. Namely, that the actions of Sea Shepherd are against international maritime law, and that given their actions, they most certainly do deserve the label of terrorist or pirate. Whatever any of us may feel about the issue of Japanese whaling (I'm against it for the record, but on the basis that I feel it may harm Australia's tourism industry, not on any scientific or emotional basis), whatever ethical or moral issues people may have over their whaling, they are legally in the right in this whole affair.

But then Japanese PMs ignore protests about visiting shrines which include dedications to war criminals.

Alright, it's a total tangent, but I'll bite just this once. It's just the one shrine (Yasakuni), their own family members are honoured there (and for that matter, almost 2 and a half million other Japanese war dead from 1867 up to the end of World War 2), and the way this particular branch of Shinto works effectively means that it's impossible for them to strike off a name or move people to other shrines. Oh, and the government has its hands tied, since to try and break the shrine and force a move would violate the separation of church and state enshrined in their constitution. Not to mention that the basic theology of Shintoism holds that spirits are purged of whatever evil or sin they may have committed during their life at the time of housing.

[mr friendly guy]

Alright, it's a total tangent, but I'll bite just this once. It's just the one shrine (Yasakuni), their own family members are honoured there (and for that matter, almost 2 and a half million other Japanese war dead from 1867 up to the end of World War 2), and the way this particular branch of Shinto works effectively means that it's impossible for them to strike off a name or move people to other shrines. Oh, and the government has its hands tied, since to try and break the shrine and force a move would violate the separation of church and state enshrined in their constitution. Not to mention that the basic theology of Shintoism holds that spirits are purged of whatever evil or sin they may have committed during their life at the time of housing.

The point I was trying to make was that they (the Japanese government) can dig their heels in against outside pressure to save face rather than admit this thing we are doing is stoooopid. They do this arguably against stronger political pressure than anything environmentalist can come up with, so its not surprising they continue to dig in and hunt whales even when it appears to not be profitable. Not to mention the money they expend bribing nations campaigning to continue hunting whales. Come on. If there was a high demand for whale meat I can understand the bribing as part of the "cost of doing business", but when its unprofitable?

The shrine example was just an obvious one of them continuing doing stupid things to save face. If you dispute the actions of the PM at the Yasakuni shrine as being stupid, using religious arguments as a justification, then I really can't help you.

[Thanas]

Archaic, the only reason whale meat sells at all is because it is heavily subsidized. Japanese people have no taste for the stuff.

[Darksider]

Archaic, the only reason whale meat sells at all is because it is heavily subsidized. Japanese people have no taste for the stuff.

I remember reading something about the Japanese government using the whale meat in school lunches because the shit just wouldn't sell. So if there's no market for the meat, and massive international opposition to whaling in general, the why the fuck are they still killing them? Are they doing it to keep the whalers off unemployment? To give the dirty gaijin the middle finger? What?

[Aaron]

Are the whalers actually Japanese or are the crews made up of guys from the third world like half the merchant ships?

[Alyrium Denryle]

For the record, I work under this guy as a tutor for classes on "Business Opportunities in Asia", so I hope you'll forgive me if I claim just a little more understanding of this whole issue from that association.

Do you know anything about

Article VIII of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling authorizes the signatory governments to grant permits for scientific research. Section 2 of that article expressly stipulates that any by-products (including whale meat, blubber, etc) be processed so far as is practical. Their processing and sale of whale meat is quite legal.

I realize it is legal. That is part of the problem. Their goal is not to do whale research and then incidentally sell the meat. If that was their goal, they would not be trying to add species to their quota like Humpbacks every year. No. Their goal is to commercially whale, and they justify it with "research"

What you seem to be suggesting is that they're knowingly catching more than necessary (so as to have extra by-product to process and sell), but that makes absolutely zero sense from an economic standpoint, considering it costs more to catch, kill and process the whales (even if you assumed no research was done and it was all sold on) than it returns in revenue.

No Dumbass, I am claiming that they dont need to kill whales at all to gather most of their data.

The Japanese (barring the older generations) do not even really eat the whale meat. The government heavily subsidizes the practice because it is "part of their culture". Whaling is a patriotic activity for them. Kind of like denying the existence of the rape of nanking.

I remember reading something about the Japanese government using the whale meat in school lunches because the shit just wouldn't sell. So if there's no market for the meat, and massive international opposition to whaling in general, the why the fuck are they still killing them? Are they doing it to keep the whalers off unemployment? To give the dirty gaijin the middle finger? What?

The answer to the question is, by and large, yes.

In regards to the validity of the science, while there's certainly significant levels of disagreement about methods, etc, overall the scientific committee of the IWC isn't so strongly opposed to the research. The conclusions from the 2007 review of the JARPA programme were at worst neutral, and specifically state that they welcome additional research on these issues.

Awww, you are so Naive it is cute.

Read the abstract again. You will note something about the justification of Minke Whales. It was circular. The purpose of the research was to justify a large take of Minke whales. Pretty transparant isn't it?

Lets take a look at the various iterations of the JARPA program...

JARPA

Population Structure: Long term tracking of individuals will work better than whaling for this sort of research. No lethal methods necessary

Population Trends:Two Words. Mark Recapture.

Life History Parameters To Improve Stock Management:Circular.

Feeding Ecology: They commercially whale and do a gut content analysis while the whale is being gutted. You can do a gut content analysis using non-lethal methods through stomach flushing. There is a scaling problem (heh) and the issue of preventing a tranquilized whale from drowning. However, i am pretty sure it can be done by someone sufficiently clever. Hell just sitting here and thinking about it for a few minutes, I can think of ways it could be done.

Effects of Pollutants:They test the whale for toxins before putting it in the market... also, pretty transparent.

You MIGHT have to kill whales for the last two. However, that does not justify a take of 400 whales per year between 1988 and 2005. Sixty eight hundred whales. Physiological studies NEVER need sample sizes that big, nor does gut content analysis.

As for the lack of sustainability you claim here...what are your sources?

First, I am actually a more reliable source than most of what you will find outside of peer reviewed journals. That said:

Minke Whales, not a problem. They are the least threatened by direct hunting because their generation time is faster than most other baleen whales. They do however have a quota of 50 endangered Fin Whales annually:

There are only a few thousand them in the Antarctic population. Maybe 5000 individuals left. You know what happens when you start killing off adults in a long-lived iteroparous species? You cut the bottom out of the population.

JARPA 2

Expands JARPA to include other species like fin whales, supposedly incorporating competition between species. They tried to add Humpbacks for this one, came under international pressure, threatened to leave the IWC, caved etc.

JARPN
Pretty much exactly like JARPA with a smaller catch

JARPN 2

More feeding ecology and stock structure. Lethal methods not necessarily required for the first, circular justification AND lethal methods not needed for the second.

I will note that for many of these studies, resolutions WERE passed to pressure Japan to stop issuing permits for lethal research.

All that said, the IWC is not a scientific organization. It is a political one, complete with the vote buying, and it does not grant permits. The nation in question does, and can do so arbitrarily. More on that momentarily

Though of course, this is all rather beside the real point I was making in my original post. Namely, that the actions of Sea Shepherd are against international maritime law, and that given their actions, they most certainly do deserve the label of terrorist or pirate. Whatever any of us may feel about the issue of Japanese whaling (I'm against it for the record, but on the basis that I feel it may harm Australia's tourism industry, not on any scientific or emotional basis), whatever ethical or moral issues people may have over their whaling, they are legally in the right in this whole affair.

And I will take a rare stance in favor of vigilantism. The law cannot touch the japanese. Being regulated by the IWC is voluntary, and Japan can pull out and go renegade at any time--and then proceed to whale in marine sanctuaries which they already do now.

So, what is someone to do who wants to protect animals who have the intelligence of human children? If there was a place where small human children were being harpooned to death and eaten where no law could actually touch them (say, child-eating is expressly legal in this area), would you not be championing people who go and interfere with the slaughter, even though technically, they are committing vehicular assault under the laws of the area in question?

Of course you would be. The legal status of an action has very little bearing on the morality of that action. If there was a legal remedy for whaling that had any teeth I may agree with you, but there isn't, and because of the political clusterfuck that is the IWC, there never will be.

[mr friendly guy]

Are the whalers actually Japanese or are the crews made up of guys from the third world like half the merchant ships?

The news clips we see and segments of the Whale Wars that I have seen show the crew to be Japanese. Sea Shepherd at least one stage had a Japanese crewmember who was sympathetic to their cause translating for them over the loudspeaker.

[Todeswind]

They served whale at the new years work party for both of the schools I work at. Even if the crews are multicultural whale is a common enough import that I can buy it at the grocery store in the middle of bumblefuck Japan for about the same price as a decent steak.

[Darth Fanboy]

They served whale at the new years work party for both of the schools I work at. Even if the crews are multicultural whale is a common enough import that I can buy it at the grocery store in the middle of bumblefuck Japan for about the same price as a decent steak.

Because, as others have said, IT IS SUBSIZED! Stand there in the grocery store for a day and see how many people are buying it, and then note the age of anyone who does.

[Todeswind]

More than you'd think actually. I've bought it myself a couple times by accident because I mistook it for other meat. It's surprisingly tasty if a bit hard to cook properly.

[Thanas]

So how do you explain that storage facilities are still full and the retailers have trouble selling it?

[Darth Fanboy]

More than you'd think actually. I've bought it myself a couple times by accident because I mistook it for other meat. It's surprisingly tasty if a bit hard to cook properly.

I like how you know what it is i'm thinking, give me a real answer instead of a bullshit anecdote.

Aside from the point Thanas made, you don't even know what the meat looks like by your own admission yet you noticed how many other people were buying it?

[Todeswind]

So how do you explain that storage facilities are still full and the retailers have trouble selling it?

I honestly don't know. Beyond occasionally seeing it and work parties it's not something I often think about.

More than you'd think actually. I've bought it myself a couple times by accident because I mistook it for other meat. It's surprisingly tasty if a bit hard to cook properly.

I like how you know what it is i'm thinking, give me a real answer instead of a bullshit anecdote.

Aside from the point Thanas made, you don't even know what the meat looks like by your own admission yet you noticed how many other people were buying it?

Actually it's how I made the mistake of buying it. My ability to read Kanji and my Japanese speaking abilities are simply dismal so there is a decent amount of grocery store guessing that goes on. I watched where there seemed to be a lot of women from my neighborhood going in the meat isle and just grabbed a packet from the various packaged meats marked at what looked like a reasonable price.

It was an easy enough mistake to make. Raw whale doesn't look substantially different from any other cut of meat in the isle, it looks practically normal compared to some of the organs and sundry animal bits they sell as foodstuffs at the local grocer. I only found out I bought whale a week after the fact when another ALT better and reading Japanese that I was helping me carry out the trash.

My own attempts at cooking it turned out to be a disaster but the couple of times I've eaten it at work parties I did enjoy it. That being said I haven't intentionally purchased it since I found out what I was buying.

[Darth Fanboy]

Actually it's how I made the mistake of buying it... (snip) ...I only found out I bought whale a week after the fact when another ALT better and reading Japanese that I was helping me carry out the trash.

You said that you had done it more than once.

I've bought it myself a couple times by accident because I mistook it for other meat.

You said that you saw other women buying it, but by your own admission you say it looked like other cuts on the aisle, so you really can't say for sure who was buying what.