Uprising in Libya

[Pelranius]

Probably both. The Supreme Ayatollah is probably doing more of the gloating side though.

[wautd]

And Berlusconi proves yet again he's isn't worth the air he's breating. Yes, Libya's oil is important but that doesn't mean a terrorist and war criminal like Kadhafi deserves continued support.

[Thanas]

You have to understand that Gaddafi is his idol. I mean, like him he keeps a harem of North African women, practices the same sex kinks etc. Plus, Berlusconi probably wishes he could shoot journalists and judges as well.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

NPR reported this afternoon that a provisional government has formed in Al Bayda. They are assuming administration for the eastern half of the country currently in rebel hands but proclaim that they are dedicated to a united Libya.

On that note, I heard on NPR this morning that the eastern half of Libya is trying to construct an army from military and militiamen in order to launch an assault on Tripoli and wrest it from Gadaffi's control. Unfortunately, at the moment, there's only a stub on NPR's website. I assume the whole story will be up a little later.

There is, perhaps, a bit of urgency in the air, as Gadaffi's forces are working on securing their hold over Tripoli and the surrounding communities.

Army units and militiamen loyal to Moammar Gadhafi struck back against protesters who have risen up in cities close to the capital Thursday, reportedly attacking a mosque where many had taken refuge and blasting its minaret and opening fire on others protecting a local airport.

The assaults aimed to push back a rebellion that has moved closer to Gadhafi's bastion in the capital, Tripoli. The revolt has already broken away nearly the eastern half of Libya and unraveled parts of Gadhafi's regime.

In the latest blow to the Libyan leader, a cousin who is one of his closest aides, Ahmed Gadhaf al-Dam, announced that he has defected to Egypt in protest against the regime's bloody crackdown against the uprising, denouncing what he called "grave violations to human rights and human and international laws."

What is happening is horrible, those who attacked us are not the mercenaries — they are sons of our country.

- Man who witnessed the violence in Zawiya

In the city of Zawiya, 30 miles west of Tripoli, an army unit attacked a mosque where protesters had been camping inside and in a lot outside for several days, calling for Gadhafi's ouster, a witness said. The soldiers opened fire with automatic weapons and hit the mosque's minaret with anti-aircraft missiles, he said. Some of the young men among the protesters had hunting rifles.

He said there were casualties, but couldn't provide exact figures. He said a day earlier an envoy from Gadhafi had come to the city and warned protesters, "Either leave or you will see a massacre." Zawiya is a key city near an oil port and refineries.

"What is happening is horrible, those who attacked us are not the mercenaries — they are sons of our country," he said, sobbing. After the assault, thousands massed in the city's main Martyrs Square, shouting "leave, leave," in reference to Gadhafi, he said.

"People came to send a clear message: we are not afraid of death or your bullets," he said. "This regime will regret it. History will not forgive them."

The other attack came at a small airport outside Misrata, Libya's third largest city, where rebels claimed control on Wednesday. Militiamen on Thursday attacked a line of residents who were protecting the facility, opening fire with rocket-propelled grenades and mortars, said a resident who saw the assault

"They left piles of human remains and swamp of blood," he said. "The hospitals are packed with those killed and injured." But he could not provide exact figures.

After the attack ended before noon, another Misrata resident said the local radio, now in opposition hands, urged people to march on the airport in support of the protesters. Both residents said the rebellion continues to control the city, located about 120 miles east of Tripoli. They and other witnesses around Libya spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.

Gadhafi's crackdown has so far helped him maintain control of Tripoli, a city that holds about a third of Libya's 6 million population. But the uprising by protesters, backed by army units that joined their ranks, has divided the country and threatened to push it toward civil war.

The leader's cousin, Gadhaf al-Dam, is one of the most high level defections to hit the regime so far, after many ambassadors around the world, the justice minister and the interior minister all sided with the protesters. Gadhaf al-Dam belonged to Gadhafi's inner circle, officially his liaison with Egypt, but he also served as Gadhafi's envoy to other world leaders and frequently appeared by his side.

In a statement issued in Cairo on Thursday, Gadhaf al-Dam said he had left Libya for Egypt "in protest and to show disagreement" with the crackdown.

International momentum has been building for action to punish Gadhafi's regime for the bloodshed.

President Obama said the suffering in Libya "is outrageous and it is unacceptable," and he directed his administration to prepare a full range of options, including possible sanctions that could freeze the assets and ban travel to the U.S. by Libyan officials.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy raised the possibility of the European Union cutting off economic ties.

[Tribun]

Gaddafi again spoke to the people. However, this time only over the telephone. If this narcist doesn't dare to talk in front of a camera in person, then things must be quite dire for him. His speech was the usual gibberish.

He said essentially that most of the people are for him, that suddenly millions are under drugs, blamed Al Kaida and "the West" for the uprising, said that he should stay in power since the Queen of England is ruling longer than him and ended his rant by personally blaming Bin Laden.

This guy now seems to pull a Hitler by totally losing his mind in his Bunker.

[wautd]

by personally blaming Bin Laden.
.

Maybe the senile old bastard hopes that the USA will come to the rescue if the protestors = the terrorists

[Lord MJ]

Related to my comment earlier about a Federal State, it would've been nice if a savvy visionary was in power in Egypt right now. Egypt could invade Libya, and if the Eastern Libyans supported the Egyptians, Gaddafi's forces would be rolled up in days. If they could convince Tunisia to join, they would have themselves a nice little Super-State there.

But right now, Egypt is in dissarray with no telling when a new government will be put in place, or who will come to power in it. Also Libya's lack of institutions means long term instability when Gaddafi finally gets the boot.

[FSTargetDrone]

Even as Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi called on the military to crack down on anti-government protesters, reports came in Wednesday that a military aircraft had crashed because the crew refused to carry out bombing orders.

An opposition figure told CNN the pilot had been ordered to bomb oil fields southwest of Benghazi but refused and instead ejected from the plane.

Presumably the aircrew couldn't find a way to land in a "safe" area or didn't want to or simply couldn't defect or otherwise escape out of country. Ejecting from an aircraft isn't necessarily good for one's health.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Related to my comment earlier about a Federal State, it would've been nice if a savvy visionary was in power in Egypt right now. Egypt could invade Libya, and if the Eastern Libyans supported the Egyptians, Gaddafi's forces would be rolled up in days.

Or rather more likely the Libyans in both factions would fight back against the Egyptians. That's the same "logic" as Bush and friends used in their invasion of Iraq; "we won't need to worry about an occupation or resistance forces, we'll be hailed as liberators". It didn't work that way.

Even as Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi called on the military to crack down on anti-government protesters, reports came in Wednesday that a military aircraft had crashed because the crew refused to carry out bombing orders.

An opposition figure told CNN the pilot had been ordered to bomb oil fields southwest of Benghazi but refused and instead ejected from the plane.

Presumably the aircrew couldn't find a way to land in a "safe" area or didn't want to or simply couldn't defect or otherwise escape out of country.

Someone on another forum suggested that the Gaddafi regime might have started following the old dictator's practice of issuing just enough fuel for the mission and a return, to prevent defections.

[MKSheppard]

So this completely proves how incompetent Obama is. The term Zerobama is apt here.

What do I refer to? His complete failure to evacuate US citizens from Libya. The one attempt the Zerobama administration has made was with a high speed ferry, and the ferry tried to charge passage.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have already airlifted 10,000+ Chinese Nationals out of Libya (they do a lot of oil field work).

I can't begrudge Obama for the Egyptian thing, since it was the first real large protest that went somewhere in the Arab world.

But by this point, we should have some fucking plans ready, rather than halfassed high speed ferry ideas.

[Zaune]

So this completely proves how incompetent Obama is. The term Zerobama is apt here.

What do I refer to? His complete failure to evacuate US citizens from Libya. The one attempt the Zerobama administration has made was with a high speed ferry, and the ferry tried to charge passage.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have already airlifted 10,000+ Chinese Nationals out of Libya (they do a lot of oil field work).

I can't begrudge Obama for the Egyptian thing, since it was the first real large protest that went somewhere in the Arab world.

But by this point, we should have some fucking plans ready, rather than halfassed high speed ferry ideas.

In all fairness to him, do you really think a load of USAF transports or even chartered airliners would be particularly welcome over Libyan airspace right now? Gaddafi's not the sanest bloke in the world when he's having a good day and he's got no particular reason to love the US.

[MKSheppard]

In all fairness to him, do you really think a load of USAF transports or even chartered airliners would be particularly welcome over Libyan airspace right now?

Link

Link 2

Chartered planes are flying into Libya right now. Except they're not coming to get US dependents and citizens. If you're so worried about LOL!EVIL!USA, just contract the airlift out to the Canadians or French via $$$.

If you absolutely must use USAF transports; use F-16CMs from Aviano AFB in Italy to fly top cover.

[Lord of the Abyss]

So this completely proves how incompetent Obama is. The term Zerobama is apt here.

What do I refer to? His complete failure to evacuate US citizens from Libya. The one attempt the Zerobama administration has made was with a high speed ferry, and the ferry tried to charge passage.

I don't think that's particularly an Obama thing; I've heard for many years complaints and accusations that the American government fails to look out for its own. Even that one attempt with a ferry is more than I'd have expected from the US.

[Zaune]

Chartered planes are flying into Libya right now. Except they're not coming to get US dependents and citizens. If you're so worried about LOL!EVIL!USA, just contract the airlift out to the Canadians or French via $$$.

If you absolutely must use USAF transports; use F-16CMs from Aviano AFB in Italy to fly top cover.

Do bear in mind that the US Air Force killed one of Gaddafi's children back in '86. How much of an excuse does he need, this close to his own certain death by lynch-mob, to have the secret police round up and execute all the US citizens they can find out of sheer spite? If the Libyans won't play ball then the expats might actually be safer staying at home and keeping their heads down.

[Lord MJ]

Or rather more likely the Libyans in both factions would fight back against the Egyptians. That's the same "logic" as Bush and friends used in their invasion of Iraq; "we won't need to worry about an occupation or resistance forces, we'll be hailed as liberators". It didn't work that way.

[/quote]

Except in this case, there was no large scale faction that controlled half of Iraq or mass demonstrations in the street against Saddam. Secondly, Egypt isn't the US. Thirdly, there wouldn't be much of a need for Egypt to occupy Libya since the rebel faction can handle the aftermath. Fourthly, a savvy politician would make sure he had the support of the rebel Libyans and that enough of the Libyan military had already crossed over to the other side before invading. Fifthly, Egypt having just recently kicked out their own dictator could win the hearts and minds of Libyans with some kind of "Common Struggle" message than the US ever could in Iraq. Indeed the main reason the Libyans are revolting right now is because the Egyptian protestors succeeded in ousting Mubarak.

Ignoring the whole Federal Arab State pipe dream. I would believe that there would be fewer deaths in a swift quick strike than a potentially drawn out civil war. And Egypt is the only nation that could intervene in Libya. No other nation on Earth can do anything but offer up token condemnations and worthless economic sanctions. Ironic given that the US et. al would have far more moral justification for intervening here than it did with its invasion of Iraq.

Reality is though we really don't know what the Egyptian militaries intentions are regarding the future of Egypt, there is speculation and doubt whether the elections will come to pass, or if they will attempt their own power grab. The military was not all out enthusiastically in support of the Egyptian protestors

[K. A. Pital]

The Federal Arab State, ironically, was Quaddafi's idea when he first came to power on the wave of a revolution ousting the monarchy. It would be more than ironic if Egypt, Tunisia and Libya form some sort of union after Quaddafi loses power. But as of now, it just looks like a pipe dream.

[erik_t]

So this completely proves how incompetent Obama is. The term Zerobama is apt here.

What do I refer to? His complete failure to evacuate US citizens from Libya. The one attempt the Zerobama administration has made was with a high speed ferry, and the ferry tried to charge passage.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have already airlifted 10,000+ Chinese Nationals out of Libya (they do a lot of oil field work).

I can't begrudge Obama for the Egyptian thing, since it was the first real large protest that went somewhere in the Arab world.

But by this point, we should have some fucking plans ready, rather than halfassed high speed ferry ideas.

FAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAP oh wait it looks like the folks who actually do this shit for a living thinks things are fine.

[Mr Bean]

FAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAP oh wait it looks like the folks who actually do this shit for a living thinks things are fine.

Wait what?
You quoted some random Internet blog which quoted some random Marine Colonel somewhere who in fact said nothing of the sort. In fact said Marine colonel noted that shit was fucked up in the region. And he also personally called you a idiot by name, it was a little harsh but I can't say it's not justified. He is a Marine Colonel after all and would know about such things.

(Hint Erik, rather than insult another user and call them an idiot, first make your case via quoting what the hell your talking about and THEN call them an idiot)
Fun fact, we had a carter a ferry to pull our people out of Libya
Fun fact, everyone knew roughly six days ago that shit was hitting the fan in Libya
Fun fact, the evacuations did not start until two days ago and on a limited scope
Fun fact, the Chinese had called for evacuations hours before we started and got those people out before before so much as a single airplane was dispatched. They had to evacuate far more people and are pretty much close to being done within the next day.

Yeah no, while the Chinese were a day late, at least they were not three days late like we are going on day four. Don't be surprised if Bahrain goes up next and it takes us a full week to evacuate people.

[erik_t]

I suggested Information Dissemination because it's a better source than a bunch of pissy assclowns on a random internet discussion board. This is somehow a problem?

Fuck only knows how one carters a ferry.

Sometimes I wonder why I so frequently go on sabbatical from this place, then a friendly neighborhood mod steps in and reminds me. Thank you, sir, for reminding me.

[MKSheppard]

FAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAP oh wait it looks like the folks who actually do this shit for a living thinks things are fine.

Well Gee, the fact that the Chinese have already removed about 9,000+ of their own nationals from Libya?

They've done everything from fly special charter air flights from Libya to Beijing to evacuate high value people like engineers and their families.

They've chartered multiple ships that can carry 2500 to 3500 people each to get a lot of other people out.

They've also hired hundreds (maybe as high as 400) trucks and buses in Egypt, Tunsia, and Algeria to form special convoys guarded by people they've paid off to transport even more people out of Libya via the roads.

It's basically the biggest mass evacuation so far in modern Chinese history of their nationals, and meanwhile, the best we can do is a single ferry?

[MKSheppard]

I suggested Information Dissemination because it's a better source than a bunch of pissy assclowns on a random internet discussion board. This is somehow a problem?

You mean the blog where the main owner and poster has an irrational hard on for the LCS and touts it at any possible chance he gets as being the greatest thing since sliced bread?

The blog where half the commentors seem to think that DDG-51 class is overkill for piracy, and want to revive Bronsteins and Knoxes; or even god forbid PBRs?

Never mind that UAV helicopters with hellfire/.50 caliber capability embarked on every DDG-51 in our inventory offer a far greater anti-piracy capability than building a fleet of LCSes.

[Omega18]

So this completely proves how incompetent Obama is. The term Zerobama is apt here.

What do I refer to? His complete failure to evacuate US citizens from Libya. The one attempt the Zerobama administration has made was with a high speed ferry, and the ferry tried to charge passage.

The US is required by law to charge for passage its not a decision of the administration. (Unless you're talking about something else I am missing. I believe the law makes allowances for situations where this is a real financial hardship.)

The US tried to get permission to fly in a charter to bring out US citizens earlier, and permission was denied by the Libyan government, probably just to screw over the US in general. Trying in transports anyways (presumably not charters under the circumstance) without permission would have created a real risk in of itself.

Significantly, the ferry is not full at this point, which brings into question how many US citizens really want to leave who didn't find other ways to get out earlier. (Among other things it was possible to fly out normally for a awhile earlier, which actually makes part of the criticism for delayed evacuations rather strange, with the main question involving whether US diplomatic personnel should have been moved out earlier.) At this point anyone in the eastern side of the country can basically get out just by driving to the Egyptian border.

The reality is there are only so many US citizens actually in Libya, and realistically many dual US/Libyan nationals probably specifically don't want to abandon Libya while its overthrowing the current regime. Unlike the Chinese situation where the foreign workers were concentrated in certain specific areas, once things escalated it would also have been tricky to leave from certain areas regardless and probably is safer to wait things out without getting involved. The only way to really ensure to the safety of those individuals would have been a heavy US troop presence in the country which isn't realistic given the variety of political complications that would create. (If the US wants to actually militarily intervene realistically it needs to stick with basically just a no fly zone at most.)

[Lonestar]

Well Gee, the fact that the Chinese have already removed about 9,000+ of their own nationals from Libya?

They've done everything from fly special charter air flights from Libya to Beijing to evacuate high value people like engineers and their families.

They've chartered multiple ships that can carry 2500 to 3500 people each to get a lot of other people out.

They've also hired hundreds (maybe as high as 400) trucks and buses in Egypt, Tunsia, and Algeria to form special convoys guarded by people they've paid off to transport even more people out of Libya via the roads.

It's basically the biggest mass evacuation so far in modern Chinese history of their nationals, and meanwhile, the best we can do is a single ferry?

Fer some reason I doubt the number of US Nationals in Libya reaches even 4 digits. One ferry should be enough.


FWIW I've heard rumblings elsewhere that Gaddafi indicated it would be a cold day in hell before he allows USAF aircraft to land in Libyan airports/air facilities, and that we've had trouble finding appropriate aircraft to charter out. The reason why we've finally gotten down to "a Ferry" is because there aren't any amphibious vessels on hand and the USN is showing an unwillingness to put a CG or DDG pierside in Libya for security reasons.

[Aaron]

I heard on the radio yesterday (so no source) that Canada had chartered a number of aircraft to evacuate our citizens, their families and landed immigrants plus their families out of Libya. So good on us and so much for Canucks being barred entry.

[erik_t]

I suggested Information Dissemination because it's a better source than a bunch of pissy assclowns on a random internet discussion board. This is somehow a problem?

You mean the blog where the main owner and poster has an irrational hard on for the LCS and touts it at any possible chance he gets as being the greatest thing since sliced bread?

The blog where half the commentors seem to think that DDG-51 class is overkill for piracy, and want to revive Bronsteins and Knoxes; or even god forbid PBRs?

Never mind that UAV helicopters with hellfire/.50 caliber capability embarked on every DDG-51 in our inventory offer a far greater anti-piracy capability than building a fleet of LCSes.

Instead of here, where the board owner is notable for being a Canadian who loves teh buttsecks and is full of commentators who can't quite decide the power output of an ISD?

Sure, that sounds like a much more reputable source on these things.