Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

[The Yosemite Bear]

Teargas and a nightstick upside the head, or a taser, aren't very pleasant, either. Less than lethal force can be pretty damn uncomfortable.

as well as some times leathal especially when used by sadiss...

[Aasharu]

Does anyone have any sort of numbers on how much support the protesters have, versus how much support Walker has? I've heard people saying how most of the state actually supports Walker, and are against the unions, and while I don't believe that, I can't find any concrete numbers either way.

[KlavoHunter]

Does anyone have any sort of numbers on how much support the protesters have, versus how much support Walker has? I've heard people saying how most of the state actually supports Walker, and are against the unions, and while I don't believe that, I can't find any concrete numbers either way.

You could refer to my previous post to see what it was like on Saturday the 19th, the peak of Walker-Supporter showing in both overall numbers and proportion.

[Aasharu]

Wow, I completely missed that, sorry.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, that shows the protests- the problem being that while the pro-union people have excellent reasons to come out and protest, the pro-Walker people have very few reasons to come out and counter-protest. It's very rare that a political rally of any kind attracts more people to counter-rally it than it does in its own right.

So I think what's more interesting would be the question of what kind of poll results are up there. Roughly what percentage of the state thinks breaking the unions is important, versus what percent opposes it, and what percentage in the middle honestly care about the financial issue enough that they're willing to accept the compromise the unions have offered?

[SirNitram]

It's over. The vote was done at 1AM. Voice vote, and the Dems were not recignized with their calls for it to stop. The vote was suddenly stopped when it reached the minimum for passage, 51. A majority of the Democrats there may have been present, and may have been pushing the NO button, but their votes were not recorded. The Assembly has passed it.

The Senate Dems remain in undisclosed locations, and have no intent on returning. The crowd of protestors thanked the Democrats, and did a round of 'Hell no we won't go'.

[Zaune]

Well, colour me completely unsurprised.

[KlavoHunter]

It's over. The vote was done at 1AM. Voice vote, and the Dems were not recignized with their calls for it to stop. The vote was suddenly stopped when it reached the minimum for passage, 51. A majority of the Democrats there may have been present, and may have been pushing the NO button, but their votes were not recorded. The Assembly has passed it.

The Senate Dems remain in undisclosed locations, and have no intent on returning. The crowd of protestors thanked the Democrats, and did a round of 'Hell no we won't go'.

SHAME on them for this!



However, 4 Republican Assemblymen found it in them to vote NO, it ought to be noted.

[Broomstick]

That was NOT an exercise in democracy.

[Aaron]

That was NOT an exercise in democracy.

Democracy only works when te parties involved are willing to abide by it. Eight years of Bush demonstrated that nicely.

This whole clusterfuck should also be a nice demonstration of what Walker will do to whoever gets in his way. For those that support him currently, you better hope he doesn't turn his eye on you next.

Edit: te=the

[erik_t]

It's over. The vote was done at 1AM. Voice vote, and the Dems were not recignized with their calls for it to stop. The vote was suddenly stopped when it reached the minimum for passage, 51. A majority of the Democrats there may have been present, and may have been pushing the NO button, but their votes were not recorded. The Assembly has passed it.

What's over? There was never any question that the lower chamber had the votes to pass this as-is. This is like saying "it's over" with respect to HCR repeal when it passed the House earlier this year.

[SirNitram]

It's over. The vote was done at 1AM. Voice vote, and the Dems were not recignized with their calls for it to stop. The vote was suddenly stopped when it reached the minimum for passage, 51. A majority of the Democrats there may have been present, and may have been pushing the NO button, but their votes were not recorded. The Assembly has passed it.

What's over? There was never any question that the lower chamber had the votes to pass this as-is. This is like saying "it's over" with respect to HCR repeal when it passed the House earlier this year.

It was more a comment to anyone waiting for news from the vote.

[Simon_Jester]

I am not familiar enough with the parliamentary procedure in the Wisconsin House to know: were the formalities observed here? I mean, I don't think you can just stop a vote without recording the opposition's existence like that.

It strikes me that there is at least a certain amount of hope for challenging this if someone pulled an illegal vote along the lines of the Wisconsin Republicans' stunt last Friday; the state judiciary may not be as sympathetic to the Koch brothers as Walker himself is.

I really need to start tracking down poll numbers. I'd like to think that the blatant "ride roughshod over the opposition" tactics, the total lack of interest on the Republicans' part in anything short of breaking the public sector unions, and the continuous protests would have a collective effect on public opinion about the issue...

...but then, I live in an echo chamber when it comes to political reactions to things like this.

[D.Turtle]

Well, that shows the protests- the problem being that while the pro-union people have excellent reasons to come out and protest, the pro-Walker people have very few reasons to come out and counter-protest. It's very rare that a political rally of any kind attracts more people to counter-rally it than it does in its own right.

So I think what's more interesting would be the question of what kind of poll results are up there. Roughly what percentage of the state thinks breaking the unions is important, versus what percent opposes it, and what percentage in the middle honestly care about the financial issue enough that they're willing to accept the compromise the unions have offered?

This would be relevant:

Poll: Americans favor union bargaining rights
By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY

MADISON, Wis. — Americans strongly oppose laws taking away the collective bargaining power of public employee unions, according to a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll. The poll found 61% would oppose a law in their state similar to such a proposal in Wisconsin, compared with 33% who would favor such a law.

Republican Gov. Scott Walker and Republican legislators in Wisconsin have proposed cutting union rights for most state government workers and making them pay more for benefits. Ohio, New Jersey, Indiana, Iowa and other states with Republican governors are considering similar laws.

Thousands gathered in Madison for an eighth day to protest Walker's plan. Rallies were also held in Columbus, Ohio, Des Moines and Montpelier, Vt.

"Most people ... mistakenly think worker rights come from collective bargaining," Walker told USA TODAY Tuesday. He said his plan would not remove union workers' protections from wrongful termination or inappropriate discipline or hiring. "When you alter collective bargaining, it doesn't alter workers' rights," he said.

Walker wants union members to pay more for their health care and pension benefits, moves he and other Republicans say would save $300 million over the next two years as the state faces a projected $3.6 billion budget shortfall.

Fourteen Democratic legislators have left the state for the past week to keep the Senate from having a quorum needed to vote on the bill. Democrats in the Indiana House of Representatives also stayed away from their Capitol on Tuesday as unions protested Republican-backed labor bills.

Almost two-thirds of those polled say their states face budget crises, but respondents oppose or are split on potential solutions, from tax hikes to spending cuts.

Key results:

— 71% oppose increasing sales, income or other taxes while 27% are in favor that approach.

— 53% oppose reducing pay or benefits for government workers while 44% are in favor.

— 48% opposed reducing or eliminating government programs while 47% were in favor of cuts.

"This underlines the difficulty of solving these problems," Jeffrey Jones of Gallup says. "It's hard to find a consensus on what to do."

Despite the opposition to tax hikes or spending cuts, those surveyed agreed overwhelmingly that their state was facing a budget crisis.

Sixty-four percent said their state was in financial crisis while only 5% said it wasn't. The rest were unsure.

The poll found people were divided on whether public employee unions were a good thing. A slight majority of 46% said unions were generally more harmful to states while 45% thought they were helpful.

Still, this mixed view did not extend to supporting changes in pay, benefits or bargaining rights.

Republicans supported limiting bargaining by a 54%-41% margin. However, only 18% of Democrats favored restrictions while 79% were opposed. Independents were against bargaining restrictions by a 31% to 62% margain.

Jones says that public support for unions has been strong for decades, although it has dropped in the last few years. Still, he says the poll shows Americans are reluctant to take away something that unions have already.

Oh and here is the image with which Fox presented the results:

They "accidentally" reversed the poll results... Though they did correct it later (after being called out on it).

[Knife]

They've painted themselves into a corner. My only worry is will this still be alive, the anger and frustration at the GOPers, in 9 more months when they can recall them? Or will it dissipate?

[Shroom Man 777]

I heard the police joined the protesters. Is this true?

[Mr Bean]

I heard the police joined the protesters. Is this true?

Yes and no
Yes the police have been quite friendly with the Protesters after the first few days. And in the crowd itself from what I hear second hand and read online they have been very polite. No lining up the SWAT teams and tear-gassing and baton the protesters. But this is helped that the crowds have been except for chanting slogans and holding signs, been very well behaved and even cleaning up after each other. The police have made several very nice statements about the protests and you have individual officers joining the protest and even full stations sometimes showing up and being cheered as the firefighters were when they showed up on the second day.

But it's not an Egypt situation where they are tossing down their weapons and merging into the crowd for the duration. They make nice statements, occasionally a local group not on duty will join the protesters for the day then go home that night put the uniform back on and get on the other side of the line the next day.

[KlavoHunter]

Today Saturday the 26th was easily even bigger than last Saturday's protests. Scott Walker refuses to get it through his head that we will not let him take our rights away; though I understand why he's trying very, very hard to ignore all of us, there's quite a mighty pot of Koch gold waiting for him at the end of his rainbow if he comes through on ANY part of this bill.

The Tea Party did not even bother showing up at all, after such a humiliatingly weak showing last week. I literally saw only one lone person with a pro-Walker sign, after sleeping overnight in the Capitol and staying out there until 4PM today.

[KlavoHunter]

Today, Sunday the 27th, the police intend to start clearing the Capitol so it can "resume normal business hours". They have locked the entry doors so no more people can get in.

LIVE STREAM of INSIDE: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/afl-cio-2010-rally
LIVE STREAM of OUTSIDE: http://www.channel3000.com/localvideo/index.html?v=live

The protesters plan to be peacefully arrested, no resistance, but they intend to not leave until arrested.

The police will begin in 35 minutes from now.

[Eleas]

The police will begin in 35 minutes from now.

I wish them (and you, if you're there) a sincere good luck.

[KlavoHunter]

The inside stream I linked earlier is no longer working, they are having internet troubles.

The ground floor appears mostly cleared of people, those who wish to stay and possibly be arrested are all up on the 1st floor now as planned.

You can watch using... -ugh- a Fox News live stream. Fortunately, they are not opening their mouths to lie, they are just rolling cameras at the moment. http://interactive.foxnews.com/livestre ... l?chanId=6

Unfortunately, I am not downtown at the moment, so at best I can spread the word about what's really going on.

[paladin]

The inside stream I linked earlier is no longer working, they are having internet troubles.

The ground floor appears mostly cleared of people, those who wish to stay and possibly be arrested are all up on the 1st floor now as planned.

You can watch using... -ugh- a Fox News live stream. Fortunately, they are not opening their mouths to lie, they are just rolling cameras at the moment. http://interactive.foxnews.com/livestre ... l?chanId=6

Unfortunately, I am not downtown at the moment, so at best I can spread the word about what's really going on.

What's so bad about Fox? They're providing a live stream.

[Knife]

Police chief isn't making them leave, score one for the good folk.

[SirNitram]

The inside stream I linked earlier is no longer working, they are having internet troubles.

The ground floor appears mostly cleared of people, those who wish to stay and possibly be arrested are all up on the 1st floor now as planned.

You can watch using... -ugh- a Fox News live stream. Fortunately, they are not opening their mouths to lie, they are just rolling cameras at the moment. http://interactive.foxnews.com/livestre ... l?chanId=6

Unfortunately, I am not downtown at the moment, so at best I can spread the word about what's really going on.

What's so bad about Fox? They're providing a live stream.

A history of lying blatantly in their 'news' coverage they defend themselves in court by claiming to be an entertainment channel, mostly.

To say nothing of the deranged maniac they have which is proclaiming this is an assault on REAL AMURIKANS.

[The Yosemite Bear]

and considering Walker's spending habits that created the economic mess, we could call him "Imelda Marcos" but that would be an insult to the former ruler of the Phillipeans...