Tau battlesuit vs Phase 3 Dark Trooper

[Srelex]

A piloted Tau battlesuit and a Phase 3 Dark Trooper are placed in the following environments, seperated by a kilometer:

*A large open plain
*A dense city
*A canyon

For the battlesuit, it will possess a missile pod and fusion cannon, or else any Tau suit weapons we have good calcs for. Who comes out of this throwdown?

[Sarevok]

Dark Troopers can go toe to toe with a Jedi weapon master like Kyle Katarn in single combat. The Tau battlesuit can be killed by even puny lasguns wielding IG (who are little more than WW 1 British infantry in appearance, tactics etc) in tabletop.

Make your own conclusion given the facts.

[Shroom Man 777]

Jedi weapon master have been killed by Clone Troopers whose tactics are even worse than WW1 British infantry (they skip the whole "bombard the enemy with artillery" bit and go straight to the whole "rush the enemy's positions and get mowed down by weapons fire", but they are elite shock troopers and as they say speed kills... them) .

[Elheru Aran]

I would probably give this to the Darktrooper. They're more or less on a par with Space Marines, IIRC, and a Space Marine has beaten down multiple crisis suits, hand-to-hand (or plasma blaster-to-power sword, if you rather). And I wouldn't be surprised if Star Wars weapons on darktroopers, who IIRC are supposed to be the ultimate of the Imperial military, are a bit more powerful than the ordinary. Considering that a stormtrooper blaster calcs about the same as an Imperial lasgun, and crisis suits can be killed by guys with lasguns...

Of course, the Darktrooper could just close in and tear the crisis suit apart with its bare hands, unless the pilot knows Tau-judo

[Black Admiral]

Dark Troopers can go toe to toe with a Jedi weapon master like Kyle Katarn in single combat. The Tau battlesuit can be killed by even puny lasguns wielding IG (who are little more than WW 1 British infantry in appearance, tactics etc) in tabletop.

Make your own conclusion given the facts.

I consider myself reasonably well-versed in the kit of the British Army c. WW1, and I wasn't aware of them being possessed of even a fraction of the gear available to the Imperial Guard (Haig'd have given his left nut for the IG's comms gear, that's for damn sure). Put shortly; prove that assertion.

Incidentally, you're wrong anyway - line Guardsmen can't take out Crisis Suits without crew-served weapons. Concentrated fire from the heavier Hellguns issued to Stormtrooper units might do it, at close range, but regular lasfire, no.

As far as Crisis Suits v. Astartes, one on one they're pretty much evenly matched, at least in kit terms, and a line SM would be taking his life in his hands trying to fight a Crisis Team solo. A Terminator, Venerable Brother or Main Character is, of course, a different story.

[Elheru Aran]

Then how do you explain a Deathwatch Space Marine wasting a bunch of crisis suits on his own in Kill Team? One might consider him an 'elite', but Space Marines are elite to start with...

[OmegaChief]

You mean the "Collected Badassess from all the chapters in the galaxy and given gear above and beyond what Space Marines are normally given" Deathwatch?

Yea, I don't see why they'd be counted as above standard Marines either /sarcasm

[Black Admiral]

He killed two, and I would say a fair part of that was catching them by surprise; Astartes go up against Crisis armoured Fire Warriors in stand-up fights in both Courage And Honour and Savage Scars, and they're basically evenly matched, one for one (with the difference often made by the Astartes inside the armour). Only really uneven Crisis Suit v. SM engagement I can think of is one point in CAH, when seven squads (+ armour support) from the Ultrasmurfs' 4th Company engage 400+ Crisis & Broadside Suits, but that's solely a delaying action; all they were doing (or trying to do) was pin the battlesuits in place for PDF & Guard artillery to shred.

And I'm not saying it's impossible for an SM to beat two or (if very lucky) three Crisis Suits in a fight, I'm just saying I wouldn't expect a line Astartes to be able to do it without severe injuries.

[Serafina]

Then how do you explain a Deathwatch Space Marine wasting a bunch of crisis suits on his own in Kill Team? One might consider him an 'elite', but Space Marines are elite to start with...

So? They are an Elite Force within an Elite Force. Deathwatch Space Marines are AT LEAST exceptionally talented AND receive a lot of additional training against aliens when compared to line Space Marines. Many of them also have a lot of experience and specialized/better equipment.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Black Admiral, I believe I've seen it mentioned that GW seems to be trying to phase out the Hellguns and replacing them with the Hotshot Lasgun. I don't doubt that crew served weapons could mess up a Crisis suit, but how would a HS lasgun fare vs the Hellgun in the task? IIRC Hellgun's achieve their task via high rate of fire, while Hotshot's due through emptying most of the clip in a single/few shots. Anyways, my point is that the Hellgun might be comparable to something like the T-21 light repeating blaster and the hotshot las similar to whatever the big rifles the Clonetroopers use. If that were the case we might be able to get an idea about the match up in the OP if we knew how Darktrooper weapons compared to the aforementioned weapons of clone/stormtroopers.

[Imperial528]

These are the Phase 3 Dark Troopers we're comparing? Now, my only direct knowledge of them comes from the Empire At War Forces of Corruption RTS, in which they are basically walking tanks. Of course, games aren't always the highest cannon, especially RTS games, so I looked them up on wookipedia to be sure.

According to the wiki, the Phase 3's main weapon is a single assault cannon, which is a 5 barrel plasma repeater rifle, capable of killing an armored soldier in one shot. The Phase II's assault cannon can fire 9 such plasma shots per second, and the P3's is stated to have a much higher rate of fire.
The Phase III has lightsaber-proof, or at least resistant armor, and is also equiped with seeker missiles.

The E@W RTS game has slight differences compared to the above, its P3's have six PLEX launchers on their shoulders and have wrist-mounted blaster cannons, rather than the hand-held assault cannon. They also have jet packs.

Given this, I'm putting my money on the dark trooper, but then again, I have little knowledge of 40k, so I really can't predict how this could turn out.

[Darth Tedious]

Jedi weapon master have been killed by Clone Troopers whose tactics are even worse than WW1 British infantry (they skip the whole "bombard the enemy with artillery" bit and go straight to the whole "rush the enemy's positions and get mowed down by weapons fire", but they are elite shock troopers and as they say speed kills... them) .

Exceptional circumstances there. It wasn't exactly a "hey, we're enemies, let's face off" kind of fight. More like "Get my back! Hey, what the fuck? I said get my back, not shoot me in it!"

From what I know of both, my money would be on the Dark Trooper.

[Shroom Man 777]

Since Sarevokerritch was mentioning how Guardsmen were so shitty and yet could beat the Tau battlesuit according to tabletop game mechanics.

By this reasoning, I'd say that the Dark Trooper is even shittier since it can get beat by Jedi, and in Masters of Teras Kasi, Jedi can get punched to death by Mangdalorians who can't even beat off blind guys with sticks.

Lol, in Masters of Teras Kasi, Jedi were little better than drunken fist fighters in terms of appearance, tactics etc.

game mechanics lol Make your own conclusion given the facts.

[Black Admiral]

Black Admiral, I believe I've seen it mentioned that GW seems to be trying to phase out the Hellguns and replacing them with the Hotshot Lasgun. I don't doubt that crew served weapons could mess up a Crisis suit, but how would a HS lasgun fare vs the Hellgun in the task? IIRC Hellgun's achieve their task via high rate of fire, while Hotshot's due through emptying most of the clip in a single/few shots.

Well, hellguns, in addition to having a higher rate of fire, are noticeably more powerful than the average lasgun - Cadian Blood helpfully compares the two, with standard-issue Kantrael-pattern lasrifles firing "a finger-thin red beam" on max power, compared with the thicker, white-cored purple hellgun beams of the 88th Shock's Kasrkin - but, that aside, I'd expect concentrated Hotshot Las fire to drop a Crisis Suit, and it'd probably be easier for someone using Hotshot packs to damage or kill one with placed shots.

I don't think that there's any direct examples of anyone using Hotshot Las fire against Crisis Suits, though, so it is best-guesses only.

[Connor MacLeod]

First off the troop comparisons are silly and bullshit, considering that a.) I don't remember any examples of battlesuits being penetrated by lasfire, unless you cuont a lascannon (which is silly for obvious reasons.) The Kill Team example had a high powered sniper rifle doing it, but that's not neccesarily a las weapon. TActics is even more of a red herring, for the already stated reasons and that "because x beats y means x beats z also" is not an automatically valid assumption (what if y's weapon loadout differed from x in some case allowing the victory, for example? Context matters.)

Secondly, since I've been browsing the Deathwatch RPG, I'm unsure how they would compare to a "normal' non Deathwatch marine. They can have acess to some pretty fancy shit if the RPG is any indicator (I also believe there was a space Marine short story in one of the various SM oriented anthologies over the past year or so that indicated Deathwatch marines get some neat tech tidbits on joining.) and we already have good reason to believe that Space Marine armour protection is variable (the non Deathwatch suits are customizable.)

Thirdly, There is every likelihood that, given the variable performances of Tau tech, they can be just as "adaptable" as anything the Imperium has. different models/configurations of pulse weapons, Battlesuits (or even firewarriors) might wear heavier or lighter armour plating depending on circumstance (a tradeoff between protection and mobility of course)

Firepower wise? I don't know about the missiles, but I'd guess a fusion blaster is as capable as a melta, and I don't recall any evidence of DArktroopers being especially durable so sustained fire (if nothing else) should harm them. I'd guess the assault cannon is maybe equivalent to a light or medium repeating blaster (say maybe an order of magnitude stronge rthan a blsater rifle/heavy blaster rifle, although that is purely a guess.) . This owuld mean it lacks "per shot" power of the fusion blaster, but probably has a higher ROF and outranges it, which would even things up.

At a kilometer range, I suspect the Dark trooper would start out with the advantage as the battlesuit tries getting closer to use its weapon. Mobility and cover (if any) play a huge role here, as do detection/stealth systems. If the tau has drones or shields, that would help as well. I would have given the battlesuit a plasma cannon instead (tau plasma weapons are less powerful but more reliable than their Imperial counterparts, so it should have balanced out better range and firepower wise.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Black Admiral, I believe I've seen it mentioned that GW seems to be trying to phase out the Hellguns and replacing them with the Hotshot Lasgun. I don't doubt that crew served weapons could mess up a Crisis suit, but how would a HS lasgun fare vs the Hellgun in the task? IIRC Hellgun's achieve their task via high rate of fire, while Hotshot's due through emptying most of the clip in a single/few shots. Anyways, my point is that the Hellgun might be comparable to something like the T-21 light repeating blaster and the hotshot las similar to whatever the big rifles the Clonetroopers use. If that were the case we might be able to get an idea about the match up in the OP if we knew how Darktrooper weapons compared to the aforementioned weapons of clone/stormtroopers.

GW is changing things all the time, nevermind the novels or subsidiaries. Fluff that was from older sources constantly gets resurrected, modified, etc. so you never know what might show up. And considering the penchant for many authors to deliberately resurrect obscure bits of fluff (especially guys like Graham McNeill), saying "newer overrides older" is a recipe for destroying any hope of ocnsistency in the universe (because all that hard work and effort could be overturned by the next edition just because they want to give unit X, Y and Z a makeover.)

[Srelex]

What's that comic about thugs on Tatooine encountering a lost Dark Trooper? IIRC, it showed some pretty mean durability feats for a DT, like having a sandcrawler dropped on it or something, but I'm not sure on the canonity.

[Elheru Aran]

What's that comic about thugs on Tatooine encountering a lost Dark Trooper? IIRC, it showed some pretty mean durability feats for a DT, like having a sandcrawler dropped on it or something, but I'm not sure on the canonity.

That story was more or less a joke, IIRC-- the SW equivalent of a Laurel and Hardy skit or some such. Pretty questionable canonicity. Funny comic though...