Law of Inertia? What's That?

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-02-26 12:34pm

On Voyager, the Doctor has a mobile emitter. It is small, portable and easy for Torres, Chakotay etc. to carry when not active. Its mass must be quite small. BUT, when active, the Doctor interacts with his environment as if he massed 70 kg or so (can shake hands without being lifted into the air, isn't blown away by small breezes, etc.) He doesn't compensate for weighing as much as a keychain by sticking to the floor, either, since we've seen him knocked off his feet (IIRC). So. Where did the extra mass come from? Possibilities:

1. There is no paradox. The emitter does weigh 70 kg and all the Voy. crew have super-strong wrists.

2. The emitter incorporates a reverse inertial dampener. (It looks like mass, walks like mass, feels like mass, but it ain't mass.)

3. Something to do with subspace. Yeah.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-02-26 01:14pm

Well they do have mass-lightening tech, so it's not too much to think they have mass increasing tech.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-26 04:48pm

Or, the emmiter weighs 70 kg, but when not active it activates a mass lightening feild.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-26 05:06pm

or perhaps the hologram itslef also incorporates, besides a solid forcefield construction, higgs bosons that are held by the forcefields, giving them mass?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-26 05:51pm

Wait, if they can lighten mass, doesn't that completely revolutionize construction?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-26 06:28pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Wait, if they can lighten mass, doesn't that completely revolutionize construction?

Not if it requires constant power. One outage, and the whole thing collapses.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-26 06:32pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Wait, if they can lighten mass, doesn't that completely revolutionize construction?
Not if it requires constant power. One outage, and the whole thing collapses.

Uh, isn't that like the Structural Integrity Field they already have?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-26 07:03pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Wait, if they can lighten mass, doesn't that completely revolutionize construction?
Not if it requires constant power. One outage, and the whole thing collapses.

Ahhh....so they just build it that way anyway following starfleet engineering protocol alpha-one-two-three
"If an object can be built safely or in a way that could cause immediate and catastrophic destruction in the event of a single fuse blowing....always choose the latter"

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-02-26 07:12pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Wait, if they can lighten mass, doesn't that completely revolutionize construction?
Not if it requires constant power. One outage, and the whole thing collapses.
Ahhh....so they just build it that way anyway following starfleet engineering protocol alpha-one-two-three
"If an object can be built safely or in a way that could cause immediate and catastrophic destruction in the event of a single fuse blowing....always choose the latter"

If in doubt....Melodrama is your friend...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-26 08:19pm

I suppose tractor beams could be used to produce resistance to movement since inertia isn't there. This is certainly no more absurd than a hologram with solidity.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-02-26 08:25pm

Uh, isn't that like the Structural Integrity Field they already have?

EXACTLY like them. The difference is that in a gravity field, you're constantly under the stress of acceleration (gravity). In space, you are not... so if the SIF collapses, you can simply stop accelerating (or do it very, very slowly) until the SIF is fixed. On a planet, you don't have any control over your acceleration stresses.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-26 08:57pm

Perhaps the forcefields that supposedly give the Doctor the ability to interact with his environment also push against the ceiling of a structure he's in? Or tiny tractor beams pulling on the surface.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-02-27 01:20am

Does it say that the SIFs actually hold the ship together, or are they just there to help handle dangerously high loads and reduce overall metal fatigue? The second would make sense, so it's probably the first one.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-27 01:23am

I think the TM says SIFs are required to keep the ship from flattening/tearing itself apart even at impulse.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-02-27 01:32am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I think the TM says SIFs are required to keep the ship from flattening/tearing itself apart even at impulse.

Well that's stupid. One fuse blows and your ship flies to pieces. Maybe that's why their consoles explode. They can't risk installing fuses.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-27 01:36am

Well, what do you expect? Most Federation ships don't even have armour. Just bare hulls.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-02-27 04:17pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I think the TM says SIFs are required to keep the ship from flattening/tearing itself apart even at impulse.

Since warp is supposed to be reactionless, they should need them only at impulse IMHO.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-27 04:25pm

Federation holographic technology (and the Doc's futuristic emitter, by extension) employs replication technology, which reorganizes matter into selected forms. It is conceivable that the portable emitter reorganizes local air (or other convenient matter) into the Doctor's shape, increasing its density to give him the necessary mass.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-27 07:57pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Well, what do you expect? Most Federation ships don't even have armour. Just bare hulls.

I always had the impression that ST armor technology was inadequate to the task of protecting the ship from weapons fire, and that even with armor, starships in ST would not have an appreciable survival time in combat beyond shield failure.

Well that's stupid. One fuse blows and your ship flies to pieces. Maybe that's why their consoles explode. They can't risk installing fuses.

And how often have the SIF systems failed?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-27 10:17pm

kojikun wrote:or perhaps the hologram itslef also incorporates, besides a solid forcefield construction, higgs bosons that are held by the forcefields, giving them mass?

He claims that a "magnetic field" is responsible for his ability to interact with the environment. Of course, photons aren't charged, so a magnetic field wouldn't have any effect on them, but don't tell the Voyager writers.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-27 11:48pm

Durandal wrote:He claims that a "magnetic field" is responsible for his ability to interact with the environment. Of course, photons aren't charged, so a magnetic field wouldn't have any effect on them, but don't tell the Voyager writers.

Since when have the Voy writers ever cared about scientific accuracy?

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-02-28 02:34pm

Darth Servo wrote: Since when have the Voy writers ever cared about scientific accuracy?

"Voy" -> "most TV/film science fiction writers"

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-28 03:06pm

ClaysGhost wrote:
Darth Servo wrote: Since when have the Voy writers ever cared about scientific accuracy?
"Voy" -> "most TV/film science fiction writers"

So? zero still equals zero, right? At least "most TV/film science fiction writers" don't try and fool the audience with meaningless technobabble trying to create the illusion of scientific accuracy (like Voy does).

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-02-28 03:35pm

Darth Servo wrote:
ClaysGhost wrote:
Darth Servo wrote: Since when have the Voy writers ever cared about scientific accuracy?
"Voy" -> "most TV/film science fiction writers"
So? zero still equals zero, right?

Er, yes, zero still equals zero. However, bashing Voyager for abusing scienific accuracy is daft when every other show does it too (sound in space, engines always on, slapping footage of firecracker explosions in atmosphere onto space fights, pasting Hubble images into background scenes that required integration times of days, not milliseconds (I'm talking to B5, here)). I think you cannot pick and choose which bits of science to apply and complain when some show doesn't do it, because evey show falls down somewhere. There are far better reasons to bash voyager, like it having the consistency of mud, the scripting finesse of a gerbil and a deus ex machina every week.

At least "most TV/film science fiction writers" don't try and fool the audience with meaningless technobabble trying to create the illusion of scientific accuracy (like Voy does).

Other shows do often turn to technobabble. For instance, (film) Stargate uses technobabble to convince people that an essentially stupid and useless coordinate system works, and I'm pretty sure that most (SG-1) episodes I've cared to watch recently have involved either time travel or parallel universes, helped along with a bit of hand-waving from Carter (annoying). Farscape seems to have avoided this by concentrating on people, aliens, things screwing each other (good effort). Space: Above and Beyond avoided such problems by not talking about it (wise).

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-28 03:47pm

ClaysGhost wrote:Other shows do often turn to technobabble. For instance, (film) Stargate uses technobabble to convince people that an essentially stupid and useless coordinate system works, and I'm pretty sure that most (SG-1) episodes I've cared to watch recently have involved either time travel or parallel universes, helped along with a bit of hand-waving from Carter (annoying). Farscape seems to have avoided this by concentrating on people, aliens, things screwing each other (good effort). Space: Above and Beyond avoided such problems by not talking about it (wise).

And when did I ever claim to enjoy SG-1? I think I wateched ONE episode and was disgusted. My current TV viewing consists of MST3K (obviously), South Park and The Man Show.