Georgia: Where a miscarriage could land you on death row.

[SirNitram]

Link

It's only February, but this year has been a tough one for women's health and reproductive rights. There's a new bill on the block that may have reached the apex (I hope) of woman-hating craziness. Georgia State Rep. Bobby Franklin—who last year proposed making rape and domestic violence "victims" into "accusers"—has introduced a 10-page bill that would criminalize miscarriages and make abortion in Georgia completely illegal. Both miscarriages and abortions would be potentially punishable by death: any "prenatal murder" in the words of the bill, including "human involvement" in a miscarriage, would be a felony and carry a penalty of life in prison or death. Basically, it's everything an "pro-life" activist could want aside from making all women who've had abortions wear big red "A"s on their chests.

I doubt that a bill that makes a legal medical procedure liable for the death penalty will pass. The bill, however, shows an astonishing lack of concern for women's health and well-being. Under Rep. Franklin's bill, HB 1, women who miscarry could become felons if they cannot prove that there was "no human involvement whatsoever in the causation" of their miscarriage. There is no clarification of what "human involvement" means, and this is hugely problematic as medical doctors do not know exactly what causes miscarriages. Miscarriages are estimated to terminate up to a quarter of all pregnancies and the Mayo Clinic says that "the actual number is probably much higher because many miscarriages occur so early in pregnancy that a woman doesn't even know she's pregnant. Most miscarriages occur because the fetus isn't developing normally."

Holding women criminally liable for a totally natural, common biological process is cruel and non-sensical. Even more ridiculous, the bill holds women responsible for protecting their fetuses from "the moment of conception," despite the fact that pregnancy tests aren't accurate until at least 3 weeks after conception. Unless Franklin (who is not a health professional) invents a revolutionary intrauterine conception alarm system, it's unclear how exactly the state of Georgia would enforce that rule other than holding all possibly-pregnant women under lock and key.

I've seen a lot of anti-woman, hate-filled bills this year, but this one takes the cake. And it's not just anti-woman, it's anti-logic. The bill contends that Georgia is exempt from upholding Supreme Court decisions like Roe v. Wade because the Constitution's Article I only governs five crimes: counterfeiting, piracy, high seas felonies, offenses against the law of nations, and treason. According to the bill, since murder is not one of those five crimes, it should be solely governed by the state. The bill also mandates that doctors must try to save the mother and the fetus, even though as we know, there are many situations in which both cannot be saved. It also changes medical terminology, re-designating all zygotes, embryos, and concepti as fetuses. In the bill's logic, a fertilized egg is the same as a person, and its destruction is murder. Sometimes even a fertilized egg will fail to adhere to the uterine lining, so would that make a uterus a murderer? At least the bill doesn't propose instituting pro-life Stork Bucks or outlawing "space abortions"...yet.

I'm having a hard time taking ANY pro-lifer seriously right now. They seem to be rapidly degenerating to 'Women, serve your proper purpose of being wombs. Don't even think of resisting.'

[Ritterin Sophia]

Shouldn't the title be 'could'? It hasn't passed and the writer isn't convinced it'll pass, not to say it should as it sounds absolutely atrocious, but Georgia does not yet have it on the lawbooks.

Nitpick addressed. Just PM a mod rather than clutter a thread. --Lagmonster

[Patrick Degan]

So... just how many seconds would it take before a court challenge to this goofy law got filed, were it actually passed and signed into action?

[Serafina]

So... just how many seconds would it take before a court challenge to this goofy law got filed, were it actually passed and signed into action?

You know, in a way it doesn't matter if it passes, or if it will be struck down if it does.
Just the fact that someone is PROPOSING such a thing is BAD. It betrays a quite terrible mindset, and calling it "anti-woman" might be too mild. Not only that, but as the article says it is entirely removed from any logic or fact.

Any sensible country would laugh anyone proposing such a bill out of office, or at least out of political influence.

[spartasman]

Well... it IS Georgia.

[Patrick Degan]

So... just how many seconds would it take before a court challenge to this goofy law got filed, were it actually passed and signed into action?

You know, in a way it doesn't matter if it passes, or if it will be struck down if it does.
Just the fact that someone is PROPOSING such a thing is BAD. It betrays a quite terrible mindset, and calling it "anti-woman" might be too mild. Not only that, but as the article says it is entirely removed from any logic or fact.

Any sensible country would laugh anyone proposing such a bill out of office, or at least out of political influence.

What it speaks to is the increasing idiocy of the political class in this country and the electorate in general. Imagine the zeebs who voted this drooling mouth-breather into the legislature in the first place.

Well... it IS Georgia.

If only it were just Georgia. It's Texas, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, Florida, Arizona and a plethora of other states anyone can name off the tops of their heads. Any place where they keep putting up, every few years, the same creationism-in-schools bill and think that just by rearranging the order of the paragraphs from the previous version they somehow will come up with a version that will survive the Supreme Court. Or the same anti-abortion measure. Or nullification measures.

America is in crisis and at the very moment it needs leadership up to the challenge it instead has clowns, do-nothings and sociopaths in the halls of power.

[JME2]

America is in crisis and at the very moment it needs leadership up to the challenge it instead has clowns, do-nothings and sociopaths in the halls of power.

That's why I got enraged when the GOP/Tea Partiers in Congress wasted 90 minutes of time and taxpayer dollars reading the Constitution aloud in January.

We don't have time for this shit or insanity like these assholes in Georgia.

[ShadowDragon8685]

America is in crisis and at the very moment it needs leadership up to the challenge it instead has clowns, do-nothings and sociopaths in the halls of power.

That's why I got enraged when the GOP/Tea Partiers in Congress wasted 90 minutes of time and taxpayer dollars reading the Constitution aloud in January.

We don't have time for this shit or insanity like these assholes in Georgia.

Given how often ill-informed about that document those who occupy the seats of power are, I'd question i that was, in fact, a waste of time.

Or were they just cherry-picking the bits they like just like they do the Bible?

[JME2]

It was a symbolic grandstanding, nothing more.

[lance]

America is in crisis and at the very moment it needs leadership up to the challenge it instead has clowns, do-nothings and sociopaths in the halls of power.

That's why I got enraged when the GOP/Tea Partiers in Congress wasted 90 minutes of time and taxpayer dollars reading the Constitution aloud in January.

We don't have time for this shit or insanity like these assholes in Georgia.

Given how often ill-informed about that document those who occupy the seats of power are, I'd question i that was, in fact, a waste of time.

Or were they just cherry-picking the bits they like just like they do the Bible?

I'm pretty sure the skipped the 3/5ths compromise

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well this is just fucked up.

I have to wonder why they keep trying shit like this. Are they just fuckde in the head, or is there something more?

[Sidewinder]

If any government official even THINKS about enforcing so biased a law, you can bet the resulting public outcry will cost him/her a career. Seriously, prosecuting a woman who suffered a miscarriage? A woman who is likely grieving for the death of her child?

On a more worrying note, is anyone else sickened by the fact Christian fundies are acting more and more like Islamofascists? (Perhaps a new word should be coined: Christianofascist.)

[Big Phil]

So... just how many seconds would it take before a court challenge to this goofy law got filed, were it actually passed and signed into action?

You know, in a way it doesn't matter if it passes, or if it will be struck down if it does.
Just the fact that someone is PROPOSING such a thing is BAD. It betrays a quite terrible mindset, and calling it "anti-woman" might be too mild. Not only that, but as the article says it is entirely removed from any logic or fact.

Any sensible country would laugh anyone proposing such a bill out of office, or at least out of political influence.

I'm going to address this attitude because it's really obnoxious - I'm not picking on Serafina specifically.

The idea that the US is backwards and immature, but Europe is too smart or refined for this to happen is absurd. In what way? Take a look at racism in Europe vs. in America. In the United States, a stadium full of sports fans never carry signs saying things like "Monkeys go home," hoot like a monkey every time a black player touched the ball, or otherwise engage is patently racist behavior. If it actually happened, it would be a massive scandal, heads would likely roll, and the entire country would lose their collective shit. Now it occasionally happens at local levels, but the best that the racist locals can hope for is scorn and disgust by everyone else, and possibly hate crime litigation, lawsuits, etc. In Europe, however, this sort of racist behavior happens all the fucking time in sports arenas, to the point where FIFA has to close stadiums from time to time and launch campaigns against racism.

So please don't get all snooty and talk about "sensible countries" when your own shit is just as foul in other areas.

EDIT - if a mod would like to split this out, please do so.

[Sidewinder]

I'm going to address this attitude because it's really obnoxious - I'm not picking on Serafina specifically.

The idea that the US is backwards and immature, but Europe is too smart or refined for this to happen is absurd. In what way? Take a look at racism in Europe vs. in America. In the United States, a stadium full of sports fans never carry signs saying things like "Monkeys go home," hoot like a monkey every time a black player touched the ball, or otherwise engage is patently racist behavior. If it actually happened, it would be a massive scandal, heads would likely roll, and the entire country would lose their collective shit. Now it occasionally happens at local levels, but the best that the racist locals can hope for is scorn and disgust by everyone else, and possibly hate crime litigation, lawsuits, etc. In Europe, however, this sort of racist behavior happens all the fucking time in sports arenas, to the point where FIFA has to close stadiums from time to time and launch campaigns against racism.

Can you post links to articles describing the incidents in question, or at least summarize where and when the sports fans acted like complete asses?

[Serafina]

There is a difference here:
One is done by the leaders, the other by the citizens.

I'm not saying that Europe is perfect. In many ways it IS better than the USA. That it is worse in other areas does not change that.

However, what i wanted to point out here is that this is a proposal by someone in a leadership position. To use your example: We do not have political leaders calling people "dirty monkeys". If someone does, he will get serious flak for it - it's the same in the USA.
We DO have some people calling for something similar to this bill, but we do not have any politicians proposing anything.

Some people being intolerant is bad. Leaders being intolerant and not getting flak for it is worse, since that is only possible if a majority of the people is having the same opinion.
That's all i wanted to say here.

So please don't get all snooty and talk about "sensible countries" when your own shit is just as foul in other areas.

Sorry, but this is just a fact: In a country with a sensible policy on abortion (or just womens rights), you could not propose such a bill without losing all your political capital. "Other areas" do not change that.

Can you post links to articles describing the incidents in question, or at least summarize where and when the sports fans acted like complete asses?

Italy, i think. It also happens occasionally in some other countries, but it is dealth with there much better IIRC. Not an expert on this tough.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Dude, whilst you make a valid point, it has sod all to do with the issue at hand.

And I defy you to show proof that such things happen "all the fucking time."

[Eleas]

I'm going to address this attitude because it's really obnoxious - I'm not picking on Serafina specifically.

The idea that the US is backwards and immature, but Europe is too smart or refined for this to happen is absurd.

I'll echo those saying your example use some work, but the point is well made. It's not only "absurd" to harp on one's own society as being intrinsically virtuous, it's dangerous. It invites complacency. Just because contempt for the poor, the weak and the few doesn't pervade European society (or parts thereof) today is in no way reason to believe that state of affairs will last forever.

And speaking of changing attitudes, that's the whole reason why they keep at it. Repeating a message ceaselessly will desensitize the audience to its ideas. The most inflammatory rhetoric and absurd premises will attain an aura of normalcy, and pretty soon you'll find people nodding along here and there. The message will begin cropping up around the watercooler and at the dinner table. That's how you change a nation.

[Big Phil]

There is a difference here:
One is done by the leaders, the other by the citizens.

I'm not saying that Europe is perfect. In many ways it IS better than the USA. That it is worse in other areas does not change that.

However, what i wanted to point out here is that this is a proposal by someone in a leadership position. To use your example: We do not have political leaders calling people "dirty monkeys". If someone does, he will get serious flak for it - it's the same in the USA.
We DO have some people calling for something similar to this bill, but we do not have any politicians proposing anything.

Right, instead you have someone in a leadership position proposing to send all the black people back to Africa, fingerprint all Gypsies (because they're all thieves, after all), and similar stupidities. But that's completely different than what some shitstain in Georgia is proposing, right?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 69,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02810.html
http://jurist.org/paperchase/2008/07/it ... ing-of.php
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 17,00.html

Some people being intolerant is bad. Leaders being intolerant and not getting flak for it is worse, since that is only possible if a majority of the people is having the same opinion.
That's all i wanted to say here.

So please don't get all snooty and talk about "sensible countries" when your own shit is just as foul in other areas.

Sorry, but this is just a fact: In a country with a sensible policy on abortion (or just womens rights), you could not propose such a bill without losing all your political capital. "Other areas" do not change that.

Can you post links to articles describing the incidents in question, or at least summarize where and when the sports fans acted like complete asses?

Italy, i think. It also happens occasionally in some other countries, but it is dealth with there much better IIRC. Not an expert on this tough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36OPNTJG ... re=related
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010 ... buse-italy
http://imagine2050.newcomm.org/2008/12/ ... -football/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkHw9F6t ... re=related
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1 ... 17,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/footbal ... 659284.stm
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/worldwide ... 18183.html

Racism in European football is merely a symptom of a deeper problem. It is the most visible and obvious symptom, but it speaks to the fact that when it comes to race relations, Europe hasn't dealt with its own racism.

I'm using this example to address the implication that Europeans do not oppress women, racial minorities, the poor, etc., and that it's only backwards, religious nutcase Americans that do shitty things. You all have your own shit, just like we have ours, to deal with, so do us all a favor and drop the implied superiority complex. You can just as easily address what's going on in Georgia without putting your nose in the air as if you're superior.

[Alphawolf55]

Maybe we should put restrictions on threads about bills being proposed. Because it seems that every week, some idiot from a state senate proposes something bat shit insane, we scorn them and then nothing comes of it. I mean if the Governor is championing it or it's getting huge amounts of support that's one thing. But in these cases it's one representative from the state and in this case, it's the same fucking representative as lack time and they almost always go nowhere.

It just feels as pointless as having a new thread every time Glenn Beck says something retarded.

[General Zod]

Maybe we should put restrictions on threads about bills being proposed. Because it seems that every week, some idiot from a state senate proposes something bat shit insane, we scorn them and then nothing comes of it. I mean if the Governor is championing it or it's getting huge amounts of support that's one thing. But in these cases it's one representative from the state and in this case, it's the same fucking representative as lack time and they almost always go nowhere.

It just feels as pointless as having a new thread every time Glenn Beck says something retarded.

A proposed bill has far more weight than some blowhard on the TV saying something stupid, since proposals have the remote possibility of actually being passed into law if nobody notices them. Unless it's something that gets shot down every year like bringing back the draft dangerous bills deserve attention.

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe we should put restrictions on threads about bills being proposed. Because it seems that every week, some idiot from a state senate proposes something bat shit insane, we scorn them and then nothing comes of it. I mean if the Governor is championing it or it's getting huge amounts of support that's one thing. But in these cases it's one representative from the state and in this case, it's the same fucking representative as lack time and they almost always go nowhere.
It just feels as pointless as having a new thread every time Glenn Beck says something retarded.

A proposed bill has far more weight than some blowhard on the TV saying something stupid, since proposals have the remote possibility of actually being passed into law if nobody notices them. Unless it's something that gets shot down every year like bringing back the draft dangerous bills deserve attention.

The problem is one of sheer numbers. There are fifty state legislatures, most of them with multiple chambers, any of which can see crackpot bills proposed on abortion or any other issue. And it doesn't take all that many crazy idiots to elect one crazy idiot to a state legislature to propose some shit like this. So it's going to happen pretty often; I bet if you dug through past records you'd find a lot of such bills throughout American history.

Which means I can see the argument for a moratorium on threads about such bills, for a while.

It's not that it's irrelevant... it's that N&P is already a very depressing, vitriolic forum that spends a lot of time digging up the worst shit in American politics and going "HOW DARE THEY!" with occasional hair-pulling matches over who's saying "HOW DARE THEY!" the loudest. These "State X legislator proposes blatantly unconstitutional law to advance far-right agenda Y" threads... they are not helping with that.

I think a lot of us need to take a chill pill about the issue, not so much because of whether we're right or wrong about any specific thing, as because we need to put a stop to the "more full of dark, frustrated rage against the trends of American politics than thou" contest.

It's not healthy.

[Big Phil]

What, you don't enjoy the "PERMANENT REPUBLICAN MAJORITY/PEAK OIL/GLOBAL WARMING/GREAT DEPRESSION TIMES 1000/END OF CIVILIZATION 2005/2006/2007/2008/2009/2010/2011/2012?" threads? One of these days the doomsayers will finally be correct, even if only because even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[General Zod]

The problem is one of sheer numbers. There are fifty state legislatures, most of them with multiple chambers, any of which can see crackpot bills proposed on abortion or any other issue. And it doesn't take all that many crazy idiots to elect one crazy idiot to a state legislature to propose some shit like this. So it's going to happen pretty often; I bet if you dug through past records you'd find a lot of such bills throughout American history.

Which means I can see the argument for a moratorium on threads about such bills, for a while.

It's not that it's irrelevant... it's that N&P is already a very depressing, vitriolic forum that spends a lot of time digging up the worst shit in American politics and going "HOW DARE THEY!" with occasional hair-pulling matches over who's saying "HOW DARE THEY!" the loudest. These "State X legislator proposes blatantly unconstitutional law to advance far-right agenda Y" threads... they are not helping with that.

I think a lot of us need to take a chill pill about the issue, not so much because of whether we're right or wrong about any specific thing, as because we need to put a stop to the "more full of dark, frustrated rage against the trends of American politics than thou" contest.

It's not healthy.

You could always just stop checking in on N&P instead.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The more I hear about shit like this, the more my comments years ago about "Banana Republicans" becomes even more disturbing truth...

[Simon_Jester]

You could always just stop checking in on N&P instead.

Zod, you're missing the point.

This problem with the direction N&P threads keep going in reminds me of the Israel vs. Palestine issue, which we do have (as far as I know) a permanent moratorium on. I've seen other forums where the issue keeps being brought up, and it gets stupid; I very much approve of the moratorium here, because I don't want to see the same Israel vs. Palestine debate repeated twenty times a month.

The problem isn't one of substance, it's that everyone winds up wasting their time going over the same ground over and over, with essentially the same format as the last six times they did it. And the same thing has been happening recently with these "State Republican who doesn't know shit about constitutional law or the practical side of law enforcement proposes bill promoting baby-eating" threads.

A general agreement to take a break from that for at least a few weeks might actually be a good idea, y'know? Sure, I could stop checking in on N&P and leave it to you... but do you enjoy getting into an endless succession of self-similar "HOW DARE THEY" threads? I can't imagine actually being made happier by that.