Firefly fans trying to raise money to bring back show

[Thanas]

Fox did the same to other Sci-fi shows, even those that had pretty great audiences. After one season, they move them to fridays and kill them.

[Losonti Tokash]

Like in the case of Terminator, where they switched time slots in the middle of the season, forgot to advertise it, and went back to "well the ratings tanked after it went off the air for 2 months and we didn't tell anyone about it."

[MKSheppard]

Yes, misogynistic and patronizing insults sure are a laugh riot, aren't they?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Broomstick is a hysterical woman, nothing more.

Your lengthy response never explained how a movie can be a fallacy

Now, let's make a little list of all the other style over substance fallacies in movie form according to the "definition" Shep has produced. I'll start!

Star Wars, all of them: Swords better than guns. Cloth better than armor.

Actually, you're wrong. Lightsabers can only stand up to blasters if you have Jedi precognition. Even with precog, blasters have the upper edge as undisputably proven in the prequels with Genosis and the cleansing of the Jedi temple by the 501st.

And I assume you are referring to when Leia gets grazed by a blaster round in ROTJ and survives versus everyone else who gets hit center of mass by a blaster and crumples down?

Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan: Space battle designed to resemble 18th-century naval combat for emotional effect, rather than realism.

Actually, more like 20th century submarine warfare and better executed than the original introduction of the Romulan Cloaking device in TOS was.

I also like how you leave out how Joachin actually slows the Reliant down and begins to avoid the Mutara Nebula; explaining to Khan:

"We daren't go in there. Our sensors and shields would be useless."

Khan is like "oh, ok. Carry on..."

Kirk however manages to goad Khan: "I'm laughing at the Superior Intellect." in order to get Khan into the Mutara nebula where the two ships are equal.

Alien: Greed of corporation and incompetence amongst spaceship personnel to put characters in desperate situation.

The biggest plothole in Alien is the Narcissus and her sister shuttle. If they're supposedly there for emergency evacuation, why is there only one lifepod per shuttle?

Other than that; a lot of Alien made sense -- the crew breaking quarantine over Ripley's objections and their refusal to abandon the ship until it was clear that the Alien was a significant threat. I mean, would you abandon a M class star freighter worth a lot of money over something the size of a ferret that burst out of someone's chest?

Aliens: Greed of corporation and incompetence amongst military personnel to put characters in desperate situation.

There's only one huge plothole I can think of in Aliens that rises to the level of 'oh god, you fools' was the rather lackadaisal attitude of the Marines in leaving the Sulaco completely unmanned and leaving the dropship door open, even after it had become obvious that Acheron was full of beasties.

They really should have put a bit more thought into how they stranded the gang on Acheron.

(Yes, I know there is the plothole of how the Aliens managed to take over Hadley's Hope in the first place, but Cameron left that wisely off screen)

2001: A Space Odyssey: Film filled with sequences designed to evoke similar emotions in audience as main character, rather than realism.

I once watched 2001. It could have done with a lot better editing to eliminate dead space, especially the acid trip at the end.

[MKSheppard]

As for Shep, congrats you just listed problems that the majority of movies have. How the hell you manage to avoid an aneurysm is beyond me.

I see that people have mentioned Transformers 2 in this thread. I have a confession to make. I enjoyed the movie both times I saw it in the theaters.

Sure, it made no goddamned sense at all with massive huge gaping plotholes (we just blew the hell out of Shanghai and we cover it all up!!!) with plot elements that made no sense...

Remember the scene where they go to the National Air and Space Museum at Udvar Hazy?

I saw it on the Udvar Hazy IMAX screen, and they had some props from the movie on display in the main exhibit hall next to the SR-71.

Anyway, everyone in the theater had a good laugh when Jetfire breaks down the exhibit hangar door and we exit into.......Davis Monthan AMARC in Arizona.

Transformers 2 was a 'it's so bad it's good' movie which was kind of fun to talk about because it didn't have anything like a legion of Rabid Joss Whedon fanboys trying vainly to gloss over the massive plotholes.

[Bakustra]

Yes, misogynistic and patronizing insults sure are a laugh riot, aren't they?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Broomstick is a hysterical woman, nothing more.

For those of you in the audience with working brains, unlike Shep here, the use of insults like "hysterical woman", "vapid cunt", "silly bitch" et al is misogynistic, as they demean women as a whole by using "woman" as an insult, by patronizing through the use of "silly" and "vapid", by using the presence of a vagina as an insult. Now, I was too subtle for Shep here and he thought that I was agreeing with him. That makes me feel slightly ill, frankly.

Your lengthy response never explained how a movie can be a fallacy

Now, let's make a little list of all the other style over substance fallacies in movie form according to the "definition" Shep has produced. I'll start!

Star Wars, all of them: Swords better than guns. Cloth better than armor.

Actually, you're wrong. Lightsabers can only stand up to blasters if you have Jedi precognition. Even with precog, blasters have the upper edge as undisputably proven in the prequels with Genosis and the cleansing of the Jedi temple by the 501st.

And I assume you are referring to when Leia gets grazed by a blaster round in ROTJ and survives versus everyone else who gets hit center of mass by a blaster and crumples down?

Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan: Space battle designed to resemble 18th-century naval combat for emotional effect, rather than realism.

Actually, more like 20th century submarine warfare and better executed than the original introduction of the Romulan Cloaking device in TOS was.

I also like how you leave out how Joachin actually slows the Reliant down and begins to avoid the Mutara Nebula; explaining to Khan:

"We daren't go in there. Our sensors and shields would be useless."

Khan is like "oh, ok. Carry on..."

Kirk however manages to goad Khan: "I'm laughing at the Superior Intellect." in order to get Khan into the Mutara nebula where the two ships are equal.

Alien: Greed of corporation and incompetence amongst spaceship personnel to put characters in desperate situation.

The biggest plothole in Alien is the Narcissus and her sister shuttle. If they're supposedly there for emergency evacuation, why is there only one lifepod per shuttle?

Other than that; a lot of Alien made sense -- the crew breaking quarantine over Ripley's objections and their refusal to abandon the ship until it was clear that the Alien was a significant threat. I mean, would you abandon a M class star freighter worth a lot of money over something the size of a ferret that burst out of someone's chest?

Aliens: Greed of corporation and incompetence amongst military personnel to put characters in desperate situation.

There's only one huge plothole I can think of in Aliens that rises to the level of 'oh god, you fools' was the rather lackadaisal attitude of the Marines in leaving the Sulaco completely unmanned and leaving the dropship door open, even after it had become obvious that Acheron was full of beasties.

They really should have put a bit more thought into how they stranded the gang on Acheron.

(Yes, I know there is the plothole of how the Aliens managed to take over Hadley's Hope in the first place, but Cameron left that wisely off screen)

2001: A Space Odyssey: Film filled with sequences designed to evoke similar emotions in audience as main character, rather than realism.

I once watched 2001. It could have done with a lot better editing to eliminate dead space, especially the acid trip at the end.

Transformers 2 was a 'it's so bad it's good' movie which was kind of fun to talk about because it didn't have anything like a legion of Rabid Joss Whedon fanboys trying vainly to gloss over the massive plotholes.

So you complain about people trying to justify a movie just after justifying (or trying to) a whole bunch of movies and revealing that you have no taste at all in two different ways. Once again, I was too subtle in mocking you, it seems. I guess in order to reach you I need to transcribe what I wish to say and then shove it into your brain physically, don't I, Shep? You still haven't answered my question. You're at two strikes and it's the bottom of the third.

[Sarevok]

What exactly is your problem Bakustra ? Do you have something to say other than whining all the time ? Shep eloquently illustrated his thoughts on several classic science fiction films. What have you done other than express your dislike for Shep ? Your posts are nearly unreadable due to content to pointless whine ratio.

[Simon_Jester]

As I understand it, Fox treated it the same way they treat all their other shows. They take a chance and if it turn up big, they kill it and try the next thing.

Ooops, that should of course be "if it doesn't turn out big".

For some reason, in Firefly's short life and despite all the faults in its presentation by the network, it managed to at least draw enough fans to miss it- miss it seriously- when it was gone. I'd argue that's a testament to its quality right there.

I think a certain amount of a work's quality does have to be judged by its ability to pick up an enduring fanbase. There are many ways to make a movie "good" that will not show up if we use Shep as a movie critic, for example. Because Shep is a simple man with simple tastes that involve a lot of very realistically rendered explosions, and equally realistically rendered people to deal with those explosions.

Other people go to a given show or movie looking for other things, and may well find what they're looking for in something Shep would hate. That doesn't make it bad art in any objective sense, because Shep is not the ideal, perfect movie critic. For that matter, most of us here aren't; we're the nitpicker demographic of the Internet for crying out loud.

[Darth Fanboy]

For some reason, in Firefly's short life and despite all the faults in its presentation by the network, it managed to at least draw enough fans to miss it- miss it seriously- when it was gone. I'd argue that's a testament to its quality right there.

Which is why the movie bombed? Or as has already been said in this thread maybe that's more of an indication that it was for a niche audience rather than the misunderstood masterpiece browncoats claim it is.

I think a certain amount of a work's quality does have to be judged by its ability to pick up an enduring fanbase.

I think a certain amount of a work's quality does have to be judged by it's ability to attract a fanbase, which Firefly did not really do despite mismanagement of the series. Not to mention the fact that Firefly fans pushing the series make the Scientologists pushing "Dianetics" blush.

[Simon_Jester]

For some reason, in Firefly's short life and despite all the faults in its presentation by the network, it managed to at least draw enough fans to miss it- miss it seriously- when it was gone. I'd argue that's a testament to its quality right there.

Which is why the movie bombed? Or as has already been said in this thread maybe that's more of an indication that it was for a niche audience rather than the misunderstood masterpiece browncoats claim it is.

"Good for a niche audience" can still be "good;" a work that appealed strongly to the SDN-demographic for its perceived realism would probably be a niche show too. There's a reason why people talk about "cult classics" in at least semi-respectful terms.

The movie bombed because movies rely on mass short-term appeal to make a profit: you need millions upon millions of viewers and you need them now. That's much harder to achieve with a work of art that appeals to a specific minority. Which is why most of the successful cult classic films have been low budget- not because they are objectively bad, but because they are not to everyone's taste, and if you want to make a profit on an expensive movie it must appeal to everyone.

Which is quite difficult to do at all with science fiction, outside of a few very well known franchises.

I think a certain amount of a work's quality does have to be judged by its ability to pick up an enduring fanbase.

I think a certain amount of a work's quality does have to be judged by it's ability to attract a fanbase, which Firefly did not really do despite mismanagement of the series. Not to mention the fact that Firefly fans pushing the series make the Scientologists pushing "Dianetics" blush.

Names and references, if you don't mind?

[Bakustra]

What exactly is your problem Bakustra ? Do you have something to say other than whining all the time ? Shep eloquently illustrated his thoughts on several classic science fiction films. What have you done other than express your dislike for Shep ? Your posts are nearly unreadable due to content to pointless whine ratio.

Sarevok, you'll need to work a lot harder to keep up. There's a great deal wrong with your post. I'll start with something that leapt out at me- using eloquent to describe any of Shep's posts would suggest impaired vision, a concussion, or a tragic lack of brain ordinarily, but in your case, your relationship with Shep suggests you're just buttering him up. I have to let you know- there are resources to help you. You're not alone, and you don't have to take his abuse. Has he been talking about how he wants to nuke all Muslims again? Has he?

Now, let's continue on. You ask what I have to say. Well, first of all, that's not whining, that's social sciences, in the form of feminist critical theory and sociology. I realize that as an enthusiastic member of the smugineer coterie, such things are dismissed by you as the refuge of pansy solipsists. I'm perfectly willing to step up the inclusion of sociological material if it will make you stop posting, since much like Shep, you listen to what people say about once in a blue moon, but unlike Shep, you're not quite a disgusting enough individual to be worth engaging.

Going on, I'll review the course of this thread, invoking the one social science you smugineer fucks offer the slightest mote of respect. Shep comes in, calling Broomstick a "hysterical woman". The fact that I have already explained why I consider this a bad thing, your membership in the smugineer coterie, and your status as a blockhead mean that I will not review that, but, he also declared that Serenity was a "style over substance fallacy". I challenged him over this as well, and he evaded it with a long complaint about "my realisms." I replied, he replied, and then I decided to point out how his standards, if applied to other movies, would make them "style over substance fallacies" as well. He responded with a lengthy defense of all the movies, and then followed it up with a post that included a complaint about Firefly fans trying to defend the show. I decided to call him out on this hypocrisy, and then you poked your ugly mug in. Now we're on the verge of the worm Ourobouros, which is a literary/mythological reference, but don't worry about that.

[Aaron]

As for Shep, congrats you just listed problems that the majority of movies have. How the hell you manage to avoid an aneurysm is beyond me.

I see that people have mentioned Transformers 2 in this thread. I have a confession to make. I enjoyed the movie both times I saw it in the theaters.

Sure, it made no goddamned sense at all with massive huge gaping plotholes (we just blew the hell out of Shanghai and we cover it all up!!!) with plot elements that made no sense...

Remember the scene where they go to the National Air and Space Museum at Udvar Hazy?

I saw it on the Udvar Hazy IMAX screen, and they had some props from the movie on display in the main exhibit hall next to the SR-71.

Anyway, everyone in the theater had a good laugh when Jetfire breaks down the exhibit hangar door and we exit into.......Davis Monthan AMARC in Arizona.

Transformers 2 was a 'it's so bad it's good' movie which was kind of fun to talk about because it didn't have anything like a legion of Rabid Joss Whedon fanboys trying vainly to gloss over the massive plotholes.

I actually have not seen Tf2, I kinda lost interest after the first and even that was only because I remember the original cartoon.

[Darth Fanboy]

"Good for a niche audience" can still be "good;" a work that appealed strongly to the SDN-demographic for its perceived realism would probably be a niche show too. There's a reason why people talk about "cult classics" in at least semi-respectful terms.

I'm not debating that, but even if it hadn't been handled by FOX the way it did it's not like the show was going to have such a dramatic increase in viewership that it was going to stay on for long on one of the big broadcast networks.

The movie bombed because movies rely on mass short-term appeal to make a profit: you need millions upon millions of viewers and you need them now.

In other words the supposedly vast legions of Browncoats were not enough to make the movie profitable like they claimed before it was released?

That's much harder to achieve with a work of art that appeals to a specific minority.

Dude, even Firefly fans in THIS THREAD say that the movie wasn't that great.

Which is why most of the successful cult classic films have been low budget- not because they are objectively bad, but because they are not to everyone's taste, and if you want to make a profit on an expensive movie it must appeal to everyone.Which is quite difficult to do at all with science fiction, outside of a few very well known franchises.

Serenity wasn't exactly high budget. Whedon said he could do it on less and that's part of the reason the studio went for it. I think the budget was only around $38 million which for a major motion picture, especially a sci fi picture, is pretty low, especially given the built in fanbase. If the fanbase wasn't enough to help a relatively inexpensive movie turn a profit then what realistic future did the series have?

Names and references, if you don't mind?

To start I recognize I wasn't entirely clear with this part and I do apologize, when I said "attract a fanbase" I should have said "attract a wide fanbase". This does not mean something bland where one thing has to appeal to everyone, but also a series with a little something for everyone as well.

That being said what names and references would you like?

If you want references that Firefly didn't attract a wide fanbase, we are talking about a series that was ultimately cancelled due to low ratings and even when they had their chance for a major motion picture it bombed. Devoted yes, but then that was never being questioned was it? If it was truly that the show was wrongly cancelled, it could have made a comeback as other shows have. It did not. It may again one day though I doubt it.

If you want references that Firefly fans go all out to promote their series, well we are in a thread where fans are pledging money to resume production aren't we? Didn't firefly fans buy copies of their show to give away to the military (yeah i'm sure it was only because they support the troops). And wasn't there a day around the time Serenity came out or maybe before that where the challenge was for Broncoats to buy copies of the series and/or movie as gifts for everyone they knew?

[Batman]

This is something that has come up over in the stupid RLM review thread over in PSW. Firefly has absolutely gathered a devoted, and vocal, and determined fanbase. What It apparently didn't manage to do, for whatever reason, was gather a particularly large fanbase, as evidenced by the financial failure of 'Serenity' (granted, it being a pretty mediocre movie probably didn't help, but so was The Motionless Picture, and that managed to do fine, because it had that fanbase).

Firefly can be awesome in the eyes of us fans all it wants (and don't get me wrong, if I could reset the universe to immediately post 'The Message', erase 'Serenity' from existence and finance another dozen seasons of it, I would), commercially, it failed.

[Thanas]

Like in the case of Terminator, where they switched time slots in the middle of the season, forgot to advertise it, and went back to "well the ratings tanked after it went off the air for 2 months and we didn't tell anyone about it."

Indeed, or in the case of Dark Angel. Sci-fi show among the highest ratest shows ever on Fox and what do they do? Transfer it to Friday, place it with an x-files spinoff that just sucked and then cancel it due to bad ratings. Well, gee, that sure was a surprise.

[Darth Fanboy]

While you are right that the move failed, it wasn't just the move to Friday which hurt. Season 2 was not nearly as good as S1 imhoo. Also, given that Dark Angel made room for 24 which was even more successful it wasn't enitrely a horrible move although DA was more fun for me.

Side note:
Jessica Alba is good lookin'

[Thanas]

One of the reason S2 sucked so much was also network meddling. Like they wanted a love triangle etc.

That said, the end plan of Cameron also sucked, so I am thankful they did not get that, instead keeping the story relatively sane in the books. (No, I did not buy them, but the library had them).

[Edi]

Shep: You can knock it the fuck off with trying to derail this thread by going after Broomstick personally. Her post on the first page had been adequately addressed by others before you came in a full page later to start slinging flames and insults. One would think you have a vendetta or something.

[Dalton]

Shep: Your behavior in this thread re: Broomstick is abominable and unbecoming of a moderator. More on this later.

Bakustra: Next time you see that sort of crap, PM a moderator instead of pushing buttons and/or egging people on.

[Enigma]

I never saw the series and I wished I had. I enjoyed watching Serenity.

But if I had complete rights to the franchise and had ABC\NBC\CBS or FOX etc.. willing to air it I'd strip the show apart and rebuild it completely. I'd redesign the Serenity. Keep the essence of what the ship looked like but refine it a bit and actually give it weapons. Give it another reason for Mal to worry over. Will the lasers\blasters work this time? Can I afford to use missiles?.

Try to keep the original cast, especially try to have Nathan Fillion onboard. If any of the actors cannot or will not come back then replace them with someone with similar appearance.

I'd also have Mal and crew do a bit of space pirating to gain some funds. Raid some Alliance freighter carrying money, precious metals, etc...

I'd decanonize the movie even though I liked it. Keep the Reaver's history largely a mystery until sometime in the future, most likely at the end of the series, reveal how they came to be.

Stuff like that. Got more but my mind is a bit foggy.

[Sam Or I]

I would not give Serenity weapons. It is what helped make the show unique.

I would like to see a second season, but these people are delusional if they think all it takes is money. No one, not even the Creator, is fighting for the show in the high ivory towers of the hollywood execs office. Who holds the rights?

Why are there always rabid fans of sci-fi shows no matter how good or bad they were?

[Sam Or I]

Now if I was to redo it, it would be 10-15 years after the movie took place, and restructure the whole plot. I know this has not been too terribly successful, like seaQuest or War of the Worlds, but after I got over the shock I enjoyed the restructured story better than the original.

It would start off with Mal in jail, Zoe a drunk (Washes death got to her more than she let on), Jane doing what Jane does, the Doc, Kalee married and River living with them, and Inara married. Serenity herself would be owned by someone else who bought it at an auction after Mals arrest. If actors were not avalible, all they would need would be a cameo.

From there the show focus could go multiple directions, but slowly progressing to become as close to the original as possible, filling in the backstory of what happened. Of course, the last episode of the first season would be Mal stepping on board Serenity again. Not as the owner, maybe as a hired gun, or rescued by after Mal breaks a different ship.

But thats just how I would do it.