Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by Zeond »

wautd wrote:I assume this is from a comment from someone named "puckman"? Looking at his past comment, he looks like he's a Poe. Please let him be a Poe.
Yes, the exact quote was from his post but there are many more out there which share the same opinion.

For the record, this is the entire comment on the Fox Nation article referred to above:
Fox Nation user puckman wrote:These anarchists teachers and cops need to be put down. They are completely out of control -- time for rubber bullets and tear gas. All unions need to be outlawed, and workers in America need to learn their proper place. That's the way it was back in the nineteenth century. When workers formed unions, the militia arrived and crushed them.
I don't know if it's a poe or not. Frankly, the level of discourse in the US has reached the point that it would not surprise me in the least if this guy is 100% serious in his wish to return to the 19th century of robber barons, Pinkertons and strike breakers. Chances are this guy has never thought about how many of the things that we take for granted these days such as safe working conditions, reasonable pay and hours are due in great part to labour activists who stood up against the employers and the strike breakers. May Day should really be celebrated in North America but we don't since it's a socialist holiday.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by Patrick Degan »

Zeond wrote:Frankly, the level of discourse in the US has reached the point that it would not surprise me in the least if this guy is 100% serious in his wish to return to the 19th century of robber barons, Pinkertons and strike breakers. Chances are this guy has never thought about how many of the things that we take for granted these days such as safe working conditions, reasonable pay and hours are due in great part to labour activists who stood up against the employers and the strike breakers. May Day should really be celebrated in North America but we don't since it's a socialist holiday.
Entirely possible. We seem to have a whole generation of people now who think that civilisation is just something that "happens"; that nothing actually has to be done to maintain it, and that a properly functioning society somehow comes right along with total freedom.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

after all when the invisible hand is done stabbing 90% of the population, it can provide civilization for the proper 1% who it serves.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

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Zixinus wrote:What's with the cheese hats? Are they the symbols of hate and violence in the USA or something?
It's because no one knows what the Wisconsin state flag looks like. No, really, Wisconsin is known for producing cheese, it started with the supporters of Wisconsin sports teams wearing cheesehats, calling people from Wisconsin cheeseheads, and now it's a symbol of Wisconsin. State pride and all that.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

does that mean that their state animal should now be Lactococcus?
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

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Something similar has passed in Ohio.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

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A few days ago, a Judge ordered Walker to open the Capital Building again to the public. He's not so far. I'm not surprised. He promised no more late night votes, too, and those happened. He keeps having to see how Americans think he's full of it. This does not, of course, stop him and the GOP in the Congress there from continuing to use the law as a blunt object against all they dislike. Link
Senate Republicans Thursday ordered the arrest of their 14 Democratic colleagues, who fled the state two weeks ago to avoid a vote on Gov. Scott Walker's controversial budget repair bill.

It's unclear whether the resolution to force the senators back to the Capitol is constitutional. The state Constitution prohibits the arrest of legislators while in session unless they're suspected of committing felonies, treason or breach of the peace.

Democrats say the Republicans have overreached, and have consulted an attorney for an opinion on whether the GOP actions are legal.

"The Republicans have gone around the bend," said Sen. Chris Larson, D-Milwaukee. "They've just increased their bullying tactics and are producing an even greater divide in our state."

James Troupis, a private attorney hired by Fitzgerald, contended Thursday that the move is legal. He cited a portion of the state Constitution that provides that each house "may compel the attendance of absent members."

Republicans voted unanimously to give the Democrats until 4 p.m. Thursday to appear before the Senate. The 14 Democrats are believed to be in Illinois. If the senators do not return by the deadline, the Senate agreed to find them "in contempt and disorderly behavior."

Declared Fitzgerald: "They have pushed us to the edge of a constitutional crisis."

The Senate also voted to institute a "call of the house," which is the mechanism used to compel senators to return to the chamber.

That means the Senate sergeant at arms can "with or without force" and with or without the help of law enforcement take missing members into custody and bring them to the Capitol.

Fitzgerald said the senators could only be taken into custody if they return to Wisconsin.

But Larson said it's the Republicans who are creating a crisis.

"It's really kind of scary what they're trying to do to our state," Larson said. "It shows how divisive they've become."
I assume the 'with or without force' section is just from the Call Of The House procedure. If not, I'm officially concerned.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by SCRawl »

SirNitram wrote:I assume the 'with or without force' section is just from the Call Of The House procedure. If not, I'm officially concerned.
So long as they remain outside the state borders, the edicts have no force. And when they do eventually return to Wisconsin, I imagine that they'll make some sort of deal that won't have them arrested the moment they cross the border, in the same manner as a person facing an arrest warrant might arrange to turn himself in to the police.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

It would be really funny if the Police, (who are rather tired of his shit), quoted back the fact that such a persecution would be an illegal order, and ask the govenor and legilature to kindly rescind themselves....
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by KlavoHunter »

Words kinda fail me at the moment, I'll just use theirs.

http://www.wisn.com/video/27074185/detail.html
Democratic state Rep. Nick Milroy (South Grange) was tackled by police Thursday evening while he was trying to make it inside the Capitol in Madison.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by wautd »

KlavoHunter wrote:Words kinda fail me at the moment, I'll just use theirs.

http://www.wisn.com/video/27074185/detail.html
Democratic state Rep. Nick Milroy (South Grange) was tackled by police Thursday evening while he was trying to make it inside the Capitol in Madison.

Hey, at least they didn't used tasers (yet)
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

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I found this to be eerily appropriate:

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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by Eleas »

Jesus. That's just too damn sad.

For the record, Thanas, I would have said this months back, but you were right all along about Obama. Hand me my crow; I'll eat it.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by TheHammer »

SCRawl wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I assume the 'with or without force' section is just from the Call Of The House procedure. If not, I'm officially concerned.
So long as they remain outside the state borders, the edicts have no force. And when they do eventually return to Wisconsin, I imagine that they'll make some sort of deal that won't have them arrested the moment they cross the border, in the same manner as a person facing an arrest warrant might arrange to turn himself in to the police.
I wonder if they would be bold enough to send private investigators to the state of Illinois to "compel" the rebel senators to return...
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by K. A. Pital »

C.O., Thanas. Your criticism of Obama was more than warranted, but people still seemed to think that Obama had some strong points left. The "People's President", eh? "Socialist"? Man.

This entire thread is a sad testament to the massive failure that the Obama presidency was.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by FaxModem1 »

Well, this isn't the kind of news one wants to see when turning on the computer.

So, would this qualify as some sort of coup in Wisconsin? Any who oppose are fleeing or being arrested, after all.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by Elfdart »

TheHammer wrote:
SCRawl wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I assume the 'with or without force' section is just from the Call Of The House procedure. If not, I'm officially concerned.
So long as they remain outside the state borders, the edicts have no force. And when they do eventually return to Wisconsin, I imagine that they'll make some sort of deal that won't have them arrested the moment they cross the border, in the same manner as a person facing an arrest warrant might arrange to turn himself in to the police.
I wonder if they would be bold enough to send private investigators to the state of Illinois to "compel" the rebel senators to return...
Those PIs would be looking forward to a number of years in Leavenworth since kidnapping is a federal offense. If it could be shown that they were acting under the orders of the governor or other officials, you could add conspiracy and they would face quiet time in Leavenworth, too.

When members of the Texas legislature ran off to New Mexico and Oklahoma, the Rangers and DPS were sent after them, but all they could do was ask the members to come back. If they had tried to grab the boycotting legislators, the police in Oklahoma and New Mexico would have stopped them and arrested them since they were out of their jurisdiction. Some yahoo who tried his hand at kidnapping would end up under the jail.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

it's also under federal law illegal to file a contempt of congress agaisnt a lawmaker.

so I wonder if anyone can explain that to the legislature

also that gambit has been used more than once. (including by Abe Lincoln)
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

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http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/08/ ... tml?hpt=T1

Gov. Walker looks to compromise apparently.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by erik_t »

Back on topic, the Wisconsin GOP ended the charade about this being budget-related. Removed all budgetary content, thereby removing the relevant quorum, and rammed it through anyway.

I'm oddly serene about this. The Wisc GOP is probably dead for a generation (not unprecedented in the upper midwest), the damned thing might not even stand up to legal scrutiny, and even if it does it's not unlikely that collective bargaining will return under a more favorable government.

The state Democrats definitely did a hell of a job turning a no-win situation into a GOP PR fiasco of heretofore unimaginable proportions.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by Patrick Degan »

erik_t wrote:Back on topic, the Wisconsin GOP ended the charade about this being budget-related. Removed all budgetary content, thereby removing the relevant quorum, and rammed it through anyway.

I'm oddly serene about this. The Wisc GOP is probably dead for a generation (not unprecedented in the upper midwest), the damned thing might not even stand up to legal scrutiny, and even if it does it's not unlikely that collective bargaining will return under a more favorable government.
It seems that the GOP senators who drafted the separate bill did so in a closed-door committee meeting, which would be a violation of Wisconsin's Open Meetings law. A court challenge is very likely. And yes, the Wisconsin GOP is indeed dead for a generation at least. They've painted themselves right into a corner and have clearly set the party against the people. They've now made the class war an open, visible fact.

Reports from Madison are that the Assembly very quickly passed the measure as well, sending it to Generalissimo Walker for his signature.
The state Democrats definitely did a hell of a job turning a no-win situation into a GOP PR fiasco of heretofore unimaginable proportions.
Well, they did have a lot of willing, even eager help from Scott Walker and Scott Fitzgerald.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by erik_t »

Yes, it's likely that it will be challenged in court. No matter, the ultimate goal is to get the Wiscy Democrat Senators back in town to pass things technically legally. And that will definitely happen, and would have happened eventually, which is why it's so nice that the GOP has been so upfront about their hate of the non-rich class.

As for death-of-party, I was not being sarcastic or butthurt. After Nixon, the Minnesota GOP (as the Independent-Republican Party) was legitimately divorced from the GOP for twenty years. The region has assuredly heard of such things.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by Edi »

This just means that when they gain the upper hand in the legislature sometime in the future, there is no reason for the Democrats not to return this favor with interest and apply the same methods to the GOP. THEN shall we hear butthurt whining.

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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

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Wisconsin Republicans in the Assembly decide to hop their pawns three squares ahead, declaring check...
In a surprise move late Wednesday, Senate Republicans used a series of parliamentary maneuvers to overcome a three-week stalemate with Democrats and pass an amended version of the governor's controversial budget repair bill.

With a crowd of protesters chanting outside their chambers, Senators approved Gov. Scott Walker's bill, which would strip most collective bargaining rights from public employees. The new bill removes fiscal elements of the proposal but still curbs collective bargaining and increases employee payments in pension and health benefits. The changes would amount to an approximate 8 percent pay cut for public workers.

After the session, Senate Republicans scattered, leaving no one to explain how they managed to pass components of the bill that seemed to have a fiscal impact, including changes in pensions and benefits, without the 20 senators needed to vote on fiscal matters. In a statement, Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said he had consulted with the Legislature's attorneys and "every item in tonight's bill follows the letter of the law."

The move ended a bizarre two-and-a-half hour legislative sprint in which the Senate hastily gaveled in and sent the measure to a Senate-Assembly conference committee, which typically works out differences between similar bills passed by the two houses.

Although the Senate hadn't yet passed the bill, Senate rules allow the Senate president to move a bill to a conference committee if the Assembly's intent is clear and it's past the amendable stage — a step the Senate took last month.

Word quickly spread that the Republicans were planning to rush the measure through by stripping the fiscal elements of the bill. Within an hour, the rotunda began to fill with angry protesters, while an even larger crowd gathered outside the building.

The 6 p.m. conference committee lasted just minutes, and featured an angry speech by Assembly Minority Leader Peter Barca, D-Kenosha, the only Democratic member present, who accused the Republicans of violating the state's open meeting law and "trampling on democracy."

"Mr. Chairman, this is a violation of law," he said, referring to the short notice given for the meeting.

Typically, 24 hours' notice is required for a public meeting. There are exceptions, but it was not clear Wednesday that the conference committee met those standards.

Attorney Robert Dreps, an expert in media and political law, said exceptions can be made if notice is "impossible or impractical."

"It raises a lot of serious questions," he said. "I don't think they can satisfy the standard for giving such short notice for that committee meeting."

Senate Chief Clerk Robert Marchant said such notice is not needed when the Senate is in special session, but Dreps said he knew of no such exemption.

Moments after the committee meeting, the Senate adopted the bill, 18-1, with only Sen. Dale Schultz, R-Richland Center, voting no. The Assembly is expected to take up the measure at 11 a.m. Thursday.

Senate Democrats were outraged. Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, D-Monona, said most of the senators watched the proceedings together on a live stream online in Illinois.

"We saw the complete stripping of long-held rights before our eyes," he said. "It was stunning."

Both he and Sen. Bob Jauch, D-Poplar, said the Republicans' actions would escalate recall efforts against the GOP senators.

"This was an act of legislative thuggery," Jauch said.

It has been three weeks since Senate Democrats left the state in an effort to stall the passage of Walker's proposal. In that time, both sides have failed to reach an agreement on a compromise to the bill. The sticking point has been collective bargaining.

Walker and Republican leaders have repeatedly said that collective bargaining is a budgetary issue and as such, they would not strip fiscal components from the measure. None of the Republican leaders would speak to reporters following the vote, but Walker issued a statement in which he praised the move.

"The Senate Democrats have had three weeks to debate this bill and were offered repeated opportunities to come home, which they refused," Walker said. "In order to move the state forward, I applaud the Legislature's action today to stand up to the status quo and take a step in the right direction to balance the budget and reform government."

Senate Democrats remained elusive about their next step. While they started the night saying they would soon be home, they quickly changed their statements.

Late Wednesday, several senators refused to say when they would return. Sen. Tim Cullen, D-Janesville, said he would like to see all of the lawmakers take a step back.

"We just don't know what's going on," he said. "We don't know what is legal. I think we all just need to press ‘pause.' Democracy does not have to move this fast."

Sen. Fred Risser, D-Monona, said the senators would return when legislative action on the bill ends.

Meanwhile, they said the maneuver proved Republicans' goal has always had more to do with ending collective bargaining for public employees than balancing the budget.

"They have been saying all along that this is a fiscal item; we've been saying it is not," said Sen. Jon Erpenbach, D-Middleton, from Illinois. "They have been lying. Their goal is to bust up the unions."
There's laws in Wisconsin about calling meetings so swiftly, not discussing bills. But the law only matters for little people. This was never about the budget; they just admitted it by stripping it down to just kill the union's, and using the fact it won't affect the budget.
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Re: Wisconsin governor: balance budget by breaking unions

Post by Jaevric »

I'd say this is a mindblowing PR fiasco...except it barely earned a raised eyebrow because I'm starting to expect to see this kind of bullshit in politics. I especially like the fact that Walker was just claiming to be open to compromise; apparently that was a convenient fiction.

I will take my hat off to Senator Dale Schultz for breaking with the Republicans on this, whether because he's a good enough person to recognize what a travesty this stunt was or because he's smart enough to realize what the political fallout of voting for it could be during the next election cycle. With luck, we'll see some serious backlash against the Republicans for this next time they're up for election.
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