Bradley Manning may face death penalty

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Eleas »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:This broad sweeping idea of the law that you have is unreasonable because you're charging someone with a crime that they did not have access to the required information to make an informed decision and are bound by local law to obey the orders of their commander and chief. The US government lied and misled its people. It'd be like me arresting a person just for being a gang member...I can see why the idea appeals to you but I also recognize it is wrong.
I see what you mean, but while I agree my view may indeed (as you not too unreasonably put it) be broad and sweeping, the rest of what you say is nonsense. US soldiers are by and large allowed to communicate outside the military. Yes, this is codified, and they aren't allowed to speak on operational matters. Fine.

But that still leaves you a level of information exchange unparalleled in history. With all this information at their fingertips, it would be trivial to check on the basic justifications given for the war, the history of the place, the discussions already held. Worse still, they didn't even need to do that - all they had to do was to listen to all these people who rightly pointed out that there was no fucking connection between Saddam and al-Qaeda except mutual loathing, that the idea of weapons of mass destruction was ludicrous, and that the whole war declaration was transparently unjust. But they didn't want to listen, because they were still out for blood and Afghanistan hadn't slaked that thirst by providing a satisfying enough enemy to demolish.

Painting them as dewy-eyed innocents is a fool's game. The US likes to wax poetic about how their all-volunteer army is exceptional because it's motivated, well trained, and well educated, sporting the finest communication systems in the world. To simultaneously claim they were all kept in the dark while the rest of the world went "wait, really? He's going to claim Saddam wants to nuke the US next?" strains credulity.

It's said the US military consists of professionals. That's all well and good. In most lines of work, professionals try to understand the context of the job they're to do and whether it is, in fact, legal. That so many US Soldiers couldn't conceive of this being relevant does not exculpate them.

I agree. Go after people actually responsible for the listed charges. You would not be doing that for going after a mechanic who was under the impression that the planes he was fixing were being used to fight terrorists determined to kill his people.
I agree that charges must be levied, and that there are degrees of guilt. To judge the participants of a war of aggression war criminals by that alone may also be to dilute the term and risk equating the followers from the true butchers, which I don't feel is productive either.

But the point is, when you decide to kill people and the justifications won't stand up to a Google search, you're not a fucking innocent, and you shouldn't be able to shrug your shoulders and go "hey, he fooled me. His face was, like, totally trustworthy" without some consequences.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
TheHammer
Jedi Master
Posts: 1472
Joined: 2011-02-15 04:16pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by TheHammer »

Simon_Jester wrote:
TheHammer wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I disagree. If we're going to accept the premise that discouraging people from signing up with US military and intelligence organizations for fear their identities will be disclosed by idiots with a grudge is an act of "aiding the enemy," it's very relevant to the discussion at hand.
No, its completely irrelevant to what charges should be levied against Manning. You are apparently assuming that I don't think charges should have been levied in the Plame case, where in fact I think they should have.
All right. Where do you draw the line? When shouldn't charges of aiding the enemy be levied against someone who intentionally commits an act which results in an enemy's situation improving?
Only in cases where the aid to the enemy from your intentional act was reasonably unforeseable. But any reasonable person, particularly in the position of PFC Manning, should know that releasing classified material to a media organization whose sole mission is to release said information, that it would almost certainly fall into the hands of the enemy.
So, to repeat, it is under all conditions an act of "aiding the enemy" for any member of the military to release classified information to the media?

Because otherwise your argument doesn't hold water. Since the material was not posted freely on the Internet, as shown by the fact that the general public still can't access the great mass of it. Wikileaks is, whether you like it or not, a media organization, not "the Internet."
In the event that the "media" then "broadcasts" the information that you handed over to it, in such a way the enemy is able to readily retreive it, such as on the "internet" then yes you have as the charge states, willfully provided aid to the enemy through indirect means. The only purpose you would have in giving said material to the "media" is in the hope that they WOULD in fact broadcast it.
So it is, under all conditions, an act of "aiding the enemy" for a member of the military to release classified information to the media, and therefore potentially a capital offense.

Very well.

Of course, this leads to the practical consequences I'm talking about: a further tightening of the iron curtain around American foreign policy and the activities of the US military in colonial wars. While I understand that the military and espionage organization has a collective interest in keeping that barrier in place, I don't think it's in the public interest that they do so.
As noted earlier, a government particularly in a military situation, can not be completely open. If there is some type of grievous offense occuring behind the "iron curtain" you speak of, again as noted there are channels to follow for that. Had Manning gone through those channels, been stone walled, and then went to an outside media (and done so judiciously) then I'd have more sympathy.
Manning's avowed intent was to release information about US dealings (including air attacks on civilians) which he perceived as atrocious or unethical, and which he believed the media needed to know about. I do not understand how you can call his intent criminal without criminalizing all intent to alert the public to the conduct of the military or security agencies.

The scope of Manning's actions may well have created a risk, fine. Out of curiousity, what if (hypothetically), he had gone over all the files himself and deleted any that he thought contained sensitive information that could be directly used by the enemy? If, for example, he had only released gun camera footage of helicopter gunships shooting journalists, diplomatic cables revealing the Americans' cooperation with China on quashing the Copenhagen agreements, and the like? Would he then not be vulnerable to charges of 'aiding the enemy'?
If he had applied such a standard he might not be guilty of "aiding the enemy" in its truest intent, however he still would have violated numerous other laws and regulations. Again, there were channels for him to go through if he were in fact "whistle blowing" as opposed to as some have said simply seeking to cause harm to the United States due to his personal treatment. Such channels could have gotten results, while not simulatenously exposing people to unneccessary risks.
...My use of the term 'treason-like' was purely rhetorical, because I am trying to make the point here that accusations of "aiding and abetting the enemy" should be used very cautiously. Especially when (as with Manning) the harm caused is vague and relies heavily on indirect arguments about "well, if the organization he handed the material to is careless, then potentially the enemy might be aided."
I'll agree that it is "treason like". And I still think it applies in the case of PFC Manning.
And I repeat that we should be very cautious about charging people with a treason-like offense when the argument for their having aided the enemy is indirect. That kind of precedent spreads far and fast; if all I need to do to convict you of treason (or similar offenses) is to make the argument that what you did might have made an enemy's life easier, there is virtually no limit to the number of activities I can turn into a treason charge.
We don't see this charge thrown around often, so I don't think your fear of it being applied loose and fast is really justified. Its a very specific charge, against an individual and I think its a warranted charge.
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Eleas wrote: I see what you mean, but while I agree my view may indeed (as you not too unreasonably put it) be broad and sweeping, the rest of what you say is nonsense. US soldiers are by and large allowed to communicate outside the military. Yes, this is codified, and they aren't allowed to speak on operational matters. Fine.
I disagree. You're assuming that they would trust third party sources but the larger assumption is that you think they even researched it. Why should they trust those other sources over those of their commanders that they trust. Also, what law requires a person in the military to engage in their own investigation? There is no such requirement.

Basically, you're asking them to go AWOL when they don't have all the information so they can avoid war criminal charges. That sets dangerous parameters that if were actually true and how the world courts work would make it not unreasonable for anyone to decline to go to war simply based off the fact that there is a dissenting opinion and governments lie.
But that still leaves you a level of information exchange unparalleled in history. With all this information at their fingertips, it would be trivial to check on the basic justifications given for the war, the history of the place, the discussions already held. Worse still, they didn't even need to do that - all they had to do was to listen to all these people who rightly pointed out that there was no fucking connection between Saddam and al-Qaeda except mutual loathing, that the idea of weapons of mass destruction was ludicrous, and that the whole war declaration was transparently unjust. But they didn't want to listen, because they were still out for blood and Afghanistan hadn't slaked that thirst by providing a satisfying enough enemy to demolish.
It would be trivial to check. Doesn't mean they didn't check and simply didn't believe the other sources. However, again there's no law requiring military personnel to do so.
Painting them as dewy-eyed innocents is a fool's game. The US likes to wax poetic about how their all-volunteer army is exceptional because it's motivated, well trained, and well educated, sporting the finest communication systems in the world. To simultaneously claim they were all kept in the dark while the rest of the world went "wait, really? He's going to claim Saddam wants to nuke the US next?" strains credulity.
I'm claiming they were misled. I'm not saying they were kept in the dark.
It's said the US military consists of professionals. That's all well and good. In most lines of work, professionals try to understand the context of the job they're to do and whether it is, in fact, legal. That so many US Soldiers couldn't conceive of this being relevant does not exculpate them.
Seems like you're largely ignorant of military life. You're handed deployment orders and then given a mission. You don't get to conduct massive research and then decide that the war is illegal because X group is saying it is illegal but your own government is saying it is legal because of Y reason. Again, no laws of war make this a requirement. It isn't a requirement because it is ridiculous to expect it.

I agree that charges must be levied, and that there are degrees of guilt. To judge the participants of a war of aggression war criminals by that alone may also be to dilute the term and risk equating the followers from the true butchers, which I don't feel is productive either.

But the point is, when you decide to kill people and the justifications won't stand up to a Google search, you're not a fucking innocent, and you shouldn't be able to shrug your shoulders and go "hey, he fooled me. His face was, like, totally trustworthy" without some consequences.
Justifications won't stand up to a google search? I guess it would depend on what sources you trust. Eleas. News flash buddy. Not everyone trusts the same sources. Sorry. That doesn't make them criminals. The only people that can be fairly charges are the ones that had access to the relevant information and not sources that could have been considered propaganda.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Thanas »

TheHammer wrote: Only in cases where the aid to the enemy from your intentional act was reasonably unforeseable. But any reasonable person, particularly in the position of PFC Manning, should know that releasing classified material to a media organization whose sole mission is to release said information, that it would almost certainly fall into the hands of the enemy.
This is BS. It was not the sole mission of wikileaks to release all information. They rather gave editorial control to the media while mainly serving as a database. Also, under your interpretation, people would be responsible for acts committed that are out of their control. I'd love you to justify that.

As noted earlier, a government particularly in a military situation, can not be completely open. If there is some type of grievous offense occuring behind the "iron curtain" you speak of, again as noted there are channels to follow for that. Had Manning gone through those channels, been stone walled, and then went to an outside media (and done so judiciously) then I'd have more sympathy.
You are aware that your definition of "not completely open" leads to any discharge of information to the media of classified information being treason and aiding the enemy, right?


If he'd applied such a standard he might not be guilty of "aiding the enemy" in its truest intent, however he still would have violated numerous other laws and regulations. Again, there were channels for him to go through if he were in fact "whistle blowing" as opposed to as some have said simply seeking to cause harm to the United States due to his personal treatment. Such channels could have gotten results, while not simulatenously exposing people to unneccessary risks.
Please provide evidence that any of these channels have worked in the past. For example, when has congress closed down the torture at Guantanamo? Or stopped rendition? These channels and congress are no longer an effective tool, especially not in the Obama administration which has gone so far as to jail people for exposing corruption inside the Government.
We don't see this charge thrown around often, so I don't think your fear of it being applied loose and fast is really justified. Its a very specific charge, against an individual and I think its a warranted charge.
How so? Based on your own opinion? Do you know what the charge and specification actually states?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Thanas »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Still, they weren't tried as war criminals.
They were investigated for being potential war criminals and then either charged or cleared and released. Those that were tried were explicitly tried as war criminals.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Thanas »

BTW, this is what Der Spiegel has to say about the philosophy behind their release:
WikiLeaks and Press Freedom - Is Treason a Civic Duty?

Since 9/11, press freedom in the West has come under attack as governments argue that national security is more important than transparency. But the hunt for WikiLeaks is a greater danger to democracy than any information that WikiLeaks might reveal.

Why do we need freedom of the press? The framers of the United States Constitution believed that such a guarantee would be unnecessary -- if not dangerous. There are freedoms that we don't secure through promises, but which we take for ourselves. They are like the air we breathe in a democracy, whose authority is built on public opinion. The democracy that was founded on the basis of such insights is the American democracy. It is an indication of the American revolutionaries' healthy mistrust in the power of this insight that they would later incorporate freedom of the press into the US Constitution after all.

Today, more than 200 years later, this old idea seems naïve to all too many people in the Western world. Since becoming embroiled in the war against terrorism, the US government has transformed itself into a huge security apparatus. The Washington Post recently reported that 854,000 people in the US government, or more than one-and-a-half times the population of Washington, DC, hold top-secret security clearances -- and this under a president who came into office promising a new era of openness in government. An estimated 16 million government documents a year are stamped "top secret," or not intended for the eyes of ordinary citizens.

In the crisis, the countries of Old Europe are also putting up the barricades. Germany's constitution, known as the Basic Law, has a far-reaching guarantee of press freedom and was created after World War II on behalf of the US liberators and in the spirit of the American and French revolutions. But in the 10th year after the 9/11 attacks, one German conservative politician has even pondered whether it might not be a good idea to prohibit journalists from reporting on terrorism in too much detail.

Such people would have been beheaded in revolutionary Paris and probably locked up in Philadelphia. When citizens were revolutionaries, the act of demanding freedom of speech was a revolutionary act. Today, in more peaceful times, we would characterize freedom of speech as a civic virtue.

Playing with Fire

But then along comes someone who is still playing the part of the revolutionary. Julian Assange, the founder of the whistleblowing platform WikiLeaks, is playing with the fire of anarchy. He is constantly threatening new, increasingly dangerous disclosures, which should indeed be of great concern to those affected. But the hatred he reaps in return is beneath all democracies.

In countries that have enshrined the right to free speech in their constitutions, it has until now been taken for granted that disclosures of confidential government information must be measured by the yardstick of the law. Disseminating real government secrets has always been against the law, including in Germany. The journalist Rudolf Augstein, SPIEGEL's founding father, paid for the mere suspicion of having exposed state secrets by spending 103 days in custody in 1962, in relation to a SPIEGEL cover story on the defense capabilities of the German military. But because the courts abided by the law, and freedom of the press was ultimately considered to be worth more than politicians' outrage, it wasn't the press but the government that felt the heat.

But for those who have it in for Assange, it's more a matter of principle than of enforcing the law. The loudmouth from Australia offers a welcome opportunity to finally cast off the old ideas of press freedom as a right that we grant ourselves instead of allowing others to grant it to us. Aren't we all at war? Isn't it the case that citizens must, in fact, protect the state instead of spying on it?

The trans-Atlantic coalition of protectors of the state includes such diverse participants as the chairman of the US Senate Committee on Homeland Security, Joe Lieberman, who accuses anyone who publishes secret US diplomatic cables of "bad citizenship," and German Green Party Chairman Cem Özdemir, who says that WikiLeaks has "crossed a line that isn't good for our democracy." The need to portray oneself as a good citizen is particularly strong among certain journalists. Even the Süddeutsche Zeitung, which normally takes civil rights very seriously, chides that the WikiLeaks disclosures "destroy politics, endanger people and can influence economies." American journalist Steve Coll, who was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his own exposés, rages against the activities of WikiLeaks, calling them "vandalism" and "subversion." The Washington Post, whose reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein once exposed the Watergate affair, describes WikiLeaks as a "criminal organization."

Dark Time for Freedom

To critics, the most threatening aspect of WikiLeaks' "criminal" activities must be the fact that, so far, no one has managed to find a law that these whistleblowers have actually broken. The US Justice Department's attempt to invoke the controversial Espionage Act of 1917 shows how helpless the protectors of the law are as they flip through their tomes. The period of World War I was a dark time for constitutional freedoms in the US. In its practically hysterical fear of communists and all other critics, the judiciary even prosecuted people who distributed flyers critical of military service, and in doing so ignored all constitutional guarantees.

Even the post 9/11 period wasn't quite as bad. In 2005, when the New York Times planned to publish a story about an illegal global wire-tapping program operated by the US National Security Agency (NSA), the paper's senior editors were summoned to the White House to meet with then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. The most powerful government in the world was forced to resort to moral pressure. Apparently no one knew of any legal justification for the government to bar the Times from going to press. Of course, the newspaper did ultimately publish what it had learned. Nevertheless, America survived.

Or was it the other way around? Did America survive precisely because the New York Times published what it knew?

The Importance of Ethics

A few days ago, Congressional legal experts issued a report warning against dusting off the Espionage Act, arguing that it isn't quite that easy to apply the prohibition on disclosing secret government information to hostile powers to disclosures in the press.

The only remaining option is to challenge the right of Assange and his much-feared organization to claim protection under the Constitution as members of the press. Should every hurler of data be afforded the same political status as the New York Times or SPIEGEL? Isn't it true that what legitimizes the work of the press is the responsible handling of data, as well as the acts of considering the consequences, applying emphasis and explaining the material?

That's the way it should be. The ethics of journalism is what makes the products of the press credible to readers. This is just as applicable to SPIEGEL as it is to its counterparts in New York and Washington. In fact, it should apply to anyone who deals with sensitive data. However, a look at the beginning of the story shows that no one but citizens themselves -- that is, the readers -- can answer the question of whether the standards were adhered to. The worst penalty they can impose is to simply not read a newspaper or a collection of data on the Internet.

Part 2: Are Citizens Permitted to Disclose State Secrets?

WikiLeaks is as much an intermediary for the public sphere as every newspaper and every website. For Berlin constitutional law expert Dieter Grimm, it is clear that the whistleblower website enjoys "the protections for freedom of the press under Germany's Basic Law." As a judge on the German Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe, Grimm played a very important role in shaping the current interpretation of freedom of opinion and freedom of the press in Germany. The Constitutional Court itself has consistently emphasized that the task of disseminating information in an unimpeded manner is "clearly essential" to the functioning of a democracy.

There is no good or bad public sphere, just as there is no such thing as a bit of a public sphere. According to the German Constitutional Court, it is only the full- fledged ability of all citizens to have access to all information, at least in principle, which makes the formation of public opinion possible. And it is the unobstructed formation of public opinion that makes it possible to view the outcome of elections as being representative of the will of the people.

Is the state permitted to keep secrets from its citizens? Are citizens permitted to disclose such secrets?

The answer to both questions is very simple: Yes.

State Has No Private Sphere

Naturally the government is permitted to have secrets. It is part of the prudent behavior of every civil servant to prepare decisions in confidence, so as to prevent unauthorized individuals from thwarting the desired outcome in advance. This is no less applicable to the planning of foreign ministers' conferences than to plans to apprehend terrorists.

That's why it is also part of the responsibility of all politicians, civil servants and judges to keep an eye on sensitive information, as the case arises. This is all the more important because the government cannot depend on being able to operate in legally protected darkness. The state's privacy, as such, is not legally protected, and the state, unlike its citizens, has no private sphere. The rights of citizens deserve protection, but the government's internal affairs do not.

Only one politician in Berlin, Christian Ahrendt, the legal policy spokesman for the liberal Free Democratic Party's parliamentary group, had the courage to put the unpopular truth into words: "If government agencies don't keep a close eye on their data, they can't hold the press responsible after the event."

This is the answer to the second question: Just as it is legitimate for the state to keep information secret, it is legitimate for the press to publish information it has succeeded in obtaining from the belly of the state.

The Quality of a Democracy

This is difficult to comprehend, even for interior ministers, which is why Germany needed, once again, a decision from the Constitutional Court explaining the difference between breach of secrecy and disclosure. When the editorial offices of the magazine Cicero were searched in 2005, with the approval of then Interior Minister Otto Schily, because the magazine had reported on a confidential Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) dossier, the investigators used a complicated argument to justify their charge against the editor responsible for the story. They argued that, although there is no specific law banning the publication of confidential official documents, it is a punishable offence for the BKA agents responsible for taking care of such documents to leak them. This meant that the journalist in question was an "accessory" to a punishable offence, if only by accepting the documents. And being an accessory to an offence is also an offence.

The Constitutional Court rejected this argument, noting once again the "absolutely essential importance" of press freedom for democracy. The press is allowed to print what it has obtained. With the very narrow exceptions in the realm of treason, this rule must apply in the press's handling of government secrets.

The case of Valerie Plame, the wife of an American diplomat who was exposed as a CIA agent by the syndicated columnist Robert Novak, shows that it is also firmly applied in the United States. It is a crime in both the United States and Germany to expose an agent of one's own government. But in the Plame case, reporters were only called to testify as witnesses. It was the government source, and not the reporters themselves, that was being prosecuted. Nevertheless, a journalist, Judith Miller, was arrested and spent three months in jail for refusing to reveal her sources. Even this sanction would be unthinkable in Germany, where journalists have the right to refuse to give evidence. Under the Basic Law, journalists, in the interest of the free disclosure of secrets, must even have the right to protect government sources.

In Germany, it was former Constitutional Court Judge Grimm who declared that a free press serves a constitutional purpose. This is not meant in a restrictive way, but entirely within the meaning of the framers of the US Constitution. If the state derives its democratic authority from citizens having comprehensive information, then providing information becomes a civic duty. And breach of secrecy becomes a mark of the quality of a democracy.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Still, they weren't tried as war criminals.
They were investigated for being potential war criminals and then either charged or cleared and released. Those that were tried were explicitly tried as war criminals.
Ok, perfect. I'm fine with that. However, that is not what was being claimed in this thread. What was being claimed, and what I addressed, was the idea that serving in a deployed location seemed to be reasonable enough to levy charges of war crimes against that person. In defense of those that claimed this position in this thread they aren't alone. I've seen many anti-war sources claim the same thing. However, it is not reality.

I want to add that in my opinion holding the above opinion is hypocritical, emotional, and completely ridiculous and those that hold it should not consider themselves humanitarians.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Thanas »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Still, they weren't tried as war criminals.
They were investigated for being potential war criminals and then either charged or cleared and released. Those that were tried were explicitly tried as war criminals.
Ok, perfect. I'm fine with that. However, that is not what was being claimed in this thread. What was being claimed, and what I addressed, was the idea that serving in a deployed location seemed to be reasonable enough to levy charges of war crimes against that person. In defense of those that claimed this position in this thread they aren't alone. I've seen many anti-war sources claim the same thing. However, it is not reality.

I want to add that in my opinion holding the above opinion is hypocritical, emotional, and completely ridiculous and those that hold it should not consider themselves humanitarians.
It is not, for it is exactly the same things the allies did.

I said above cleared and released. It would be more accurate to say "their degree of guilt ascertained and then released". For the label innocent only was attached to those who openly resisted the regime. Those who were not guilty of any specific war crimes were still declared guilty of "having went along with it" (Mitläufer). And even those were often fined high sums for having done so, which was labelled as "retribution money".

So I would apply the same label to anybody who willingly participated, cheered for and supported the Invasion to Iraq.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Anguirus »

This has been a general theme throughout this thread, but an implicit one, so I'd like to ask it for the record:

Is there not a difference between being a good person and being a good soldier?

Lonestar has adequately (if...repetitively) made the point that this was not a guy who was going places in the military, or who was a good fit for it...however he seems to imply that this rules out any legitimate motives on his part. I'd be curious if there's any justification for that leap.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Mr. Coffee
is an asshole.
Posts: 3258
Joined: 2005-02-26 07:45am
Location: And banging your mom is half the battle... G.I. Joe!

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Anguirus wrote:Lonestar has adequately (if...repetitively) made the point that this was not a guy who was going places in the military, or who was a good fit for it...however he seems to imply that this rules out any legitimate motives on his part. I'd be curious if there's any justification for that leap.
It comes down to what his motivations for releasing the information was. Was he really acting as a morally justified whistle blower or was he claiming that for attention and using it as a justification for acting out against his peers and superiors who he had a track record of altercations with? Everything about this guy scream that it was the second option, especially since he apparently didn't even attempt to go through established channels for "whistle blowing" and instead just handed the information off to a bunch of foreign nationals.
Image
Goddammit, now I'm forced to say in public that I agree with Mr. Coffee. - Mike Wong
I never would have thought I would wholeheartedly agree with Coffee... - fgalkin x2
Honestly, this board is so fucking stupid at times. - Thanas
GALE ForceCarwash: Oh, I'll wax that shit, bitch...
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Aaron »

This guys motivations aside, we are actually supposed to report unethical and illegal actions, just like we should disobey illegal and unethical orders. Should he have used the proper procedure, fuck yes. Just to protect himself if nothing else. But what if he had tried (and I keep hearing that he did and he didn't) and got no where, what then?

Should he have sat on it until his OSA (or US equivalent) was up? Shrugged and forgot about?

What?
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
Block
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: 2007-08-06 02:36pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Block »

I think that's one of the big things people here are missing. There are about 7 different legal ways to circumvent the chain of command, that we as soldiers are told about, so there's probably more than that. I really can't believe that this guy tried all of them and was shut down completely.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Thanas »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
Anguirus wrote:Lonestar has adequately (if...repetitively) made the point that this was not a guy who was going places in the military, or who was a good fit for it...however he seems to imply that this rules out any legitimate motives on his part. I'd be curious if there's any justification for that leap.
It comes down to what his motivations for releasing the information was. Was he really acting as a morally justified whistle blower or was he claiming that for attention and using it as a justification for acting out against his peers and superiors who he had a track record of altercations with? Everything about this guy scream that it was the second option, especially since he apparently didn't even attempt to go through established channels for "whistle blowing" and instead just handed the information off to a bunch of foreign nationals.
I really do not think that it matters much why he did it.

I find it far more troubling that none of the relevations that have come to light (and there were more than a few whoppers) that not a single one so far has resulted in any change or consequences for those involved.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
weemadando
SMAKIBBFB
Posts: 19195
Joined: 2002-07-28 12:30pm
Contact:

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by weemadando »

Block wrote:I think that's one of the big things people here are missing. There are about 7 different legal ways to circumvent the chain of command, that we as soldiers are told about, so there's probably more than that. I really can't believe that this guy tried all of them and was shut down completely.
Given the reactions to things like Abu Ghraib where the people who exposed it and were doing the grunt work were the ones punished while the people who endorsed it, set it up and tried to keep a lid on it one the feline had exited the sack got off scot free - he could have had ample reason to not trust the official apparatus. Especially when what he was looking to report would (in a just world) lead to some of those in that chain and their superiors being investigated or imprisoned.

Maybe those 7 routes all offered the same advice of "this army is too big to fail so keep your mouth shut". Because its not like there isn't precedent for them to be concerned about.
User avatar
Mr. Coffee
is an asshole.
Posts: 3258
Joined: 2005-02-26 07:45am
Location: And banging your mom is half the battle... G.I. Joe!

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Thanas wrote:I really do not think that it matters much why he did it.
I find it far more troubling that none of the relevations that have come to light (and there were more than a few whoppers) that not a single one so far has resulted in any change or consequences for those involved.

That could happen in the future or it could happen not at all. Still doesn't change the fact that this guy released classified in formation in a manner not prescribed to people that weren't cleared for it.
Image
Goddammit, now I'm forced to say in public that I agree with Mr. Coffee. - Mike Wong
I never would have thought I would wholeheartedly agree with Coffee... - fgalkin x2
Honestly, this board is so fucking stupid at times. - Thanas
GALE ForceCarwash: Oh, I'll wax that shit, bitch...
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Thanas »

So what? I'd think the US public would care more that they finance child rapists in Afghanistan instead of wether the guy did everything by the book.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Mr. Coffee
is an asshole.
Posts: 3258
Joined: 2005-02-26 07:45am
Location: And banging your mom is half the battle... G.I. Joe!

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Thanas wrote:So what? I'd think the US public would care more that they finance child rapists in Afghanistan instead of wether the guy did everything by the book.
Yeah, but somehow I don;'t see "CHild Prostitutes in A-Stan" outracing Jersey Shore, bro. Simply put, the us public generally doesn't care.
Image
Goddammit, now I'm forced to say in public that I agree with Mr. Coffee. - Mike Wong
I never would have thought I would wholeheartedly agree with Coffee... - fgalkin x2
Honestly, this board is so fucking stupid at times. - Thanas
GALE ForceCarwash: Oh, I'll wax that shit, bitch...
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Simon_Jester »

Re: Thanas

God, how I wish this were true.

Unfortunately, the "hey, look, scumbags associated with these secrets!" distraction has been totally successful in the American media, and has even managed to penetrate to here, a place which is normally something of a left-wing echo chamber.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
Thanas wrote:So what? I'd think the US public would care more that they finance child rapists in Afghanistan instead of wether the guy did everything by the book.
Yeah, but somehow I don;'t see "CHild Prostitutes in A-Stan" outracing Jersey Shore, bro. Simply put, the us public generally doesn't care.
And that is why I hate Amerikkka. Just saying.

People SHOULD care, and even if they dont, they have a right to know.

Given the reactions to things like Abu Ghraib where the people who exposed it and were doing the grunt work were the ones punished while the people who endorsed it, set it up and tried to keep a lid on it one the feline had exited the sack got off scot free - he could have had ample reason to not trust the official apparatus. Especially when what he was looking to report would (in a just world) lead to some of those in that chain and their superiors being investigated or imprisoned.

Maybe those 7 routes all offered the same advice of "this army is too big to fail so keep your mouth shut". Because its not like there isn't precedent for them to be concerned about.
Simply put, there was no reasonable expectation that had he gone through proper channels, that data would have ever been released. That he did not sort through it (a quarter million documents, are you kidding?) is irrelevant. That he may have been a bad soldier is irrelevant.

I have made this point multiple times, Lonestar et al handwave it away. It is very very possible to be a good person and a shitty soldier. Maybe the brainwashing did not take properly in boot. Maybe he had an averse reaction to the clever machinations of the social psychologists and multiple millenia of military tradition that created basic training. It happens sometimes. It is a testament to the general effectiveness of said training that certain individuals in this thread have falsely equated being a "shitbird" with being a bad person... because that attitude is exactly what soldiers are trained to have... though not to pick on soldiers, any large cohesive group will almost automatically line up to drink the koolaid of that line of thinking. It is how humans work
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote: It is not, for it is exactly the same things the allies did.

I said above cleared and released. It would be more accurate to say "their degree of guilt ascertained and then released". For the label innocent only was attached to those who openly resisted the regime. Those who were not guilty of any specific war crimes were still declared guilty of "having went along with it" (Mitläufer). And even those were often fined high sums for having done so, which was labelled as "retribution money".

So I would apply the same label to anybody who willingly participated, cheered for and supported the Invasion to Iraq.
I want to be sure that I understand. Every member of the german military of World War 2 was investigated to determine their degree of guilt, however, even if they were not guilty of a specific war crime they were declared guilty of going along with it and punished or were they not punished?

I just want to point out that I haven't found any sources that confirm this thus far. I know millions of germans were put into forced labor...did these germans have a trial? If so what was this trial called?
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Serafina »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Thanas wrote: It is not, for it is exactly the same things the allies did.

I said above cleared and released. It would be more accurate to say "their degree of guilt ascertained and then released". For the label innocent only was attached to those who openly resisted the regime. Those who were not guilty of any specific war crimes were still declared guilty of "having went along with it" (Mitläufer). And even those were often fined high sums for having done so, which was labelled as "retribution money".

So I would apply the same label to anybody who willingly participated, cheered for and supported the Invasion to Iraq.
I want to be sure that I understand. Every member of the german military of World War 2 was investigated to determine their degree of guilt, however, even if they were not guilty of a specific war crime they were declared guilty of going along with it and punished or were they not punished?

I just want to point out that I haven't found any sources that confirm this thus far. I know millions of germans were put into forced labor...did these germans have a trial? If so what was this trial called?
About 2.5 million people were investigated in west germany. More than 70% of those were cleared of all direct charges, but the majority of those were still classified as "willing followers", sometimes with the fines Thanas mentioned. Less than 1% were truly cleared of any guilt, because that only happened if you actively worked against the Nazis. About 2% were tried for various degrees of crimes.
This does not include any investigations into the former german military, this is purely about the investigations in the civilian population.

Note that this process was heavily critizised for not being good enough - one of the accusations that not every german citizen was investigated, large groups of people were almost excluded from that investigation (men were investigated way more often than women, non-adults virtually never even if they were 16 or such etc.).

Ironically, the USA was the only occupying power that made any attempts to trial everyone who aided the Nazis. The French, British and Soviets focussed solely on removing the former Nazi elite. Those efforts were also coupled with a massive "collective guilt" campaign - germans were forced to visit concentration camps or to exhume mass graves of jews.
It's also important to note that those efforts were stopped pretty soon, after about five years - West Germany was simply needed too much as an ally against the soviets.


And by the way, i think that what the americans did here in former Nazi Germany was, in principle, the right thing to do. It did not suceed entirely, but i think that this campain was essential for giving us a proper conscience about our actions during WW II.
And i think that the United States are lacking a conscience for their own actions right now. They clearly don't have one in their leadership, and they won't have one in their population until their actions are properly exposed.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Metahive
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2795
Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
Location: Little Korea in Big Germany

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Metahive »

K.Sith, I was just making clear that the german rank and file did not come out of WW2 scot free even if they were not collectively tried before a court. So if (hypothetically) judgement some day finds its way to the United States, there's a chance GIs might find themselves toiling away on Iraqi/Chinese/whatever wheat fields. Since that would require the US to completely lose a war and become occupied territory it's unlikely to happen.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula

O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Lonestar »

NM
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Vympel »

Lonestar wrote: So if he knows it could be used to the advantage of foreign nations, and then passes that information over to an organization that included foreign elected officials, but that doesn't mean he didn't INTEND for it to be used in that manner!
Sorry, but since when are unidentified foreign elected officials by definition enemies of the United States? Would you care to name these elected officials? You're barking up the wrong tree, and mangling the definition of intent to a ridiculous degree.
Yeah he's a big time hero. Got into fistfights with his coworkers, diagonosed with an "adjustment disorder" so he was getting a discharge, was pissy about being the low man on the Totem Pole(and he got there by his own doing)...since we're talking about INTENT then it is just as clear his INTENT was to put his thumb in the eye of the Army, which were a bunch of big meanies for making him empty the trash in the fucking office.
Your putting 'intent' in all-caps goes anywhere close to establishing that such was his intent, and even if it was, such intent doesn't effect the objective good of his actions one solitary iota - the last thing anyone gives a shit about - or should give a shit about - is whether the all-mighty Army wasn't sufficiently worshiped by one of its members. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how fucked up Manning was, what a shitty soldier he was, or whatever - its irrelevant to the effect of his actions.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Bradley Manning may face death penalty

Post by Thanas »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I want to be sure that I understand. Every member of the german military of World War 2 was investigated to determine their degree of guilt, however, even if they were not guilty of a specific war crime they were declared guilty of going along with it and punished or were they not punished?
No, not just every member of the military. The goal was to determine the guilt of every member of German society. If they were declared willing followers of Nazism and varying on their degree of involvement (and I guess whether the commission had a good lunch or not), they were fined or not fined. Until 1949 2.5 million Germans were investigated and based on their actions and their beliefs in Nazi ideology they were classified as following:

0,6 % enemy of the Nazi state/resistance fighters/exonerated
34,6 % no judgement
54 % willing followers,
1,4 % guilty

For example, in the case of my grandfather, he was judged as a willing follower due to having served in the Wehrmacht. However, as he had nothing left of value, he was not fined anything. Note that not actively resisting was enough to be classified as a willing follower.

So yeah, it is not as if this is a somewhat unprecedented idea that has never been practiced before.


I just want to point out that I haven't found any sources that confirm this thus far. I know millions of germans were put into forced labor...did these germans have a trial? If so what was this trial called?
A trial of the soviet and french variety, in which often just being a member of the Nazi army was enough to warrant ten or more years in a gulag or work camp. Soviet military tribunals were the majority of them.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Post Reply