Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

Post by Thanas »

Let's recap a bit of how Manning is treated:
brig officials now confirm to The New York Times that Manning will be forced to be nude every night from now on for the indefinite future -- not only when he sleeps, but also when he stands outside his cell for morning inspection along with the other brig detainees[...]Let's review Manning's detention over the last nine straight months: 23-hour/day solitary confinement; barred even from exercising in his cell; one hour total outside his cell per day where he's allowed to walk around in circles in a room alone while shackled, and is returned to his cell the minute he stops walking; forced to respond to guards' inquiries literally every 5 minutes, all day, everyday; and awakened at night each time he is curled up in the corner of his bed or otherwise outside the guards' full view.

And now, the great liberal Obama:

With respect to Private Manning, I have actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of his confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards. They assure me that they are. I can't go into details about some of their concerns, but some of this has to do with Private Manning's safety as well.
.


I feel so much assured now in his effort to betray uphold civil liberties.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

Post by Aaron »

So are the other detainee's in solitary kept like this as well?

And what "safety concerns" are there that require him to be naked, shackled while on exercise or questioned every few minutes? We literally treat POW's better then this. Fuck Obama, what a disappointment you turned out to be.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Aaron wrote:So are the other detainee's in solitary kept like this as well?
No, not even those on suicide watch.
And what "safety concerns" are there that require him to be naked, shackled while on exercise or questioned every few minutes?
Apparently, Manning made a quip a few weeks ago that they took his shoelaces because he might off himself. Then, this policy was instituted. Over the objections of the base psychiatrist, who decided that there was no suicide risk at all.

EDIT: Oh, and never mind that suicide watch does not mean "removal of all underwear, blankets and pillows" in normal circumstances.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Why is Obama doing this? He's not getting any respect from the right wing no matter how "tough" and "properly patriotic" he tries to make himself look and he's alienating the rest. Why hasn't he caught onto that? It's not like this is some super-secret fact that needs to be divined via the Delphic Oracle or something.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Metahive wrote:Why is Obama doing this? He's not getting any respect from the right wing no matter how "tough" and "properly patriotic" he tries to make himself look and he's alienating the rest. Why hasn't he caught onto that? It's not like this is some super-secret fact that needs to be divined via the Delphic Oracle or something.
Isn't it obvious by now? He supports these measures personally. Which is why he defends the Patriot Act and virtually every other piece of Bush legislation that helps him do whatever he wants. No, this is a guy who quite clearly believes that it is in the best interests of his country to behave like Soviet Russia did.

Well...actually, even worse than Soviet Russia. At least there the prisoners were allowed underpants.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Thanas wrote:
No, not even those on suicide watch.
*sigh*
Apparently, Manning made a quip a few weeks ago that they took his shoelaces because he might off himself. Then, this policy was instituted. Over the objections of the base psychiatrist, who decided that there was no suicide risk at all.

EDIT: Oh, and never mind that suicide watch does not mean "removal of all underwear, blankets and pillows" in normal circumstances.
I always thought taking shoelaces and belts was standard with detainees but yeah that never meant left in a birthday suit.

Regardless of what this guy did or did not do, nothing justifies this. There's supposed to be fucking standards and the guy is simply accused, hasn't even had a damn trial yet. I expect this shit from Cuba, Libya or Afghanistan, not a country with a professional military.
Why is Obama doing this? He's not getting any respect from the right wing no matter how "tough" and "properly patriotic" he tries to make himself look and he's alienating the rest. Why hasn't he caught onto that? It's not like this is some super-secret fact that needs to be divined via the Delphic Oracle or something.
Because he doesn't fucking care and apparently can't be arsed to look up (or have a lackey do it) the relevant standards for detainee treatment. We disbanded an entire regiment for this.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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If a guy in the USSR had done what Manning did... well.

I can't imagine what would happen in the USSR if someone released hundreds of thousands of classified archived diplomatic notes, military reports, and the like. I very much doubt that you'd get much better treatment than Manning did. I would hardly be surprised to find someone who did such a thing beaten or swiftly executed.

And yes Manning's treatment is still horribly abusive and I am still utterly disgusted with Obama for endorsing it.

My point is solely limited to the exact words of what I have just said, regarding the nature of the Soviet penal system for political prisoners.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Obama worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago. He should know this stuff by heart. There is no way in hell that he does not know about what is allowed at prisons and what isn't.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Metahive wrote:Why is Obama doing this? He's not getting any respect from the right wing no matter how "tough" and "properly patriotic" he tries to make himself look and he's alienating the rest. Why hasn't he caught onto that? It's not like this is some super-secret fact that needs to be divined via the Delphic Oracle or something.
I think the issue is that the majority of Americans regardless of party have the same hard on for their MURICAH and stoppin' dem ebil terrywrists. If he was "soft on terror" he risks losing his democratic base, not just further alienating the right.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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You know, some years ago, i spoke to a man for several hours who was imprisoned like that.
He was a political prisoner of the Stasi, held in their most infamous prison. And i would argue that he was better treated than Manning is right now - he was allowed to wear clothing and to exercise properly. However, the other stuff could be copied 1:1 - he was not allowed to have any private time, he was not allowed to sleep properly at night (btw. sleep deprivation is a form of torture), he had to endure constant inquiries.
And before anyone complains that this is just another quip at the USA: I am comparing facts here.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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weemadando wrote:
Metahive wrote:Why is Obama doing this? He's not getting any respect from the right wing no matter how "tough" and "properly patriotic" he tries to make himself look and he's alienating the rest. Why hasn't he caught onto that? It's not like this is some super-secret fact that needs to be divined via the Delphic Oracle or something.
I think the issue is that the majority of Americans regardless of party have the same hard on for their MURICAH and stoppin' dem ebil terrywrists. If he was "soft on terror" he risks losing his democratic base, not just further alienating the right.
I'm not at all sure that's even true- but he'd have to actively promote a stance of "let us be civilized; it costs us nothing."

I think the single great flaw of Obama, the one that makes anything he might want or not want to do irrelevant, is that he is politically lazy: he refuses to expend political capital once he has acquired it. If at any point he would have to do something beyond just talk, to exert pressure on interest groups rather than let interest groups exert pressure on him... he folds.

And yes that's an oversimplification, but I think it's true as a rough approximation. When was the last time we saw Obama get behind something and push, rather than talk big and walk small?

Talk big and walk small... he's like the anti-Teddy Roosevelt.
Serafina wrote:You know, some years ago, i spoke to a man for several hours who was imprisoned like that.
He was a political prisoner of the Stasi, held in their most infamous prison. And i would argue that he was better treated than Manning is right now - he was allowed to wear clothing and to exercise properly. However, the other stuff could be copied 1:1 - he was not allowed to have any private time, he was not allowed to sleep properly at night (btw. sleep deprivation is a form of torture), he had to endure constant inquiries.
And before anyone complains that this is just another quip at the USA: I am comparing facts here.
What was he imprisoned for? General suspicion of doing something the Stasi didn't like, or something more specific?
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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weemadando wrote:
Metahive wrote:Why is Obama doing this? He's not getting any respect from the right wing no matter how "tough" and "properly patriotic" he tries to make himself look and he's alienating the rest. Why hasn't he caught onto that? It's not like this is some super-secret fact that needs to be divined via the Delphic Oracle or something.
I think the issue is that the majority of Americans regardless of party have the same hard on for their MURICAH and stoppin' dem ebil terrywrists. If he was "soft on terror" he risks losing his democratic base, not just further alienating the right.
This is a straight forward release of class info though, the Pentagon apparently didn't think any harm even came of it. This is just being an asshole of the sake of being an asshole.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Serafina wrote:You know, some years ago, i spoke to a man for several hours who was imprisoned like that.
He was a political prisoner of the Stasi, held in their most infamous prison. And i would argue that he was better treated than Manning is right now - he was allowed to wear clothing and to exercise properly. However, the other stuff could be copied 1:1 - he was not allowed to have any private time, he was not allowed to sleep properly at night (btw. sleep deprivation is a form of torture), he had to endure constant inquiries.
And before anyone complains that this is just another quip at the USA: I am comparing facts here.
What was he imprisoned for? General suspicion of doing something the Stasi didn't like, or something more specific?
I don't recall the exact details, but IIRC he read some capitalist books (standard economics stuff, since he was studying economy), some Stasi-Spitzel told on him and claimed that he was part of some anti-communist circle and he just got dragged away on the street and imprisoned in a prison of whom most people did not even the location (despite being in the middle of Berlin) - the infamous Stasi-prison Hohenschönhausen.

His treatment was a highly developed form of torture in order to get him to expose the other conspirators (and it was classified by the Stasi as torture).
He was in solitary confinment all the time. He never saw another prisoner despite being there for years, they had a specific system to ensure that prisoners could not even meet on the corridors while transported from one location to another. His clothes were deliberately made to be unfomfortable and itchy. He was only allowed to sleep with his arms folded above the bedsheet - a completely unnatural sleeping position. Guards checked on that every ten minutes, if he was out of that position (which happens when you sleep) he was woken up immedeately.
No one, not even the guards or his interrogators, used his name - he was assigned a number instead. The guards never responed to questions - the only people he could talk to were his interrogators, which were switched when he got accustomed to them sometimes.
He could ask for books if he kept talking at least half an hour during interrogations, but he often did not get the books he asked for and instead communist propaganda - which we still read, since he had nothing else to do during those times.
He was kept fit and healthy at all times, got proper medical treatment, good food and was allowed exercise in an actual gym. This rule was only broken when he got into "solitary confinment" (despite that being the case anyway), where he was locked inside a padded room without any human contact at all for days or weeks.
He was allowed to write letters, but they were always intercepted - and his relatives/friends were allowed to send letters who got intercepted as well. Both were taken by professional forgers and forgerd letters were made - he got discouraging letters "from outside", his friends got similary forged letters.

I could go on like this for a long time. I'm not saying that Manning is treated like this, but there are several crucial similarities, such as the sleep deprivation, which was an essential part of that torture process.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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You know, Obama's background makes it even worse. Bush was a drunken white frat boy. Obama is an extremely intelligent black civil rights lawyer and constitutional scholar.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Re: Serafina

Point taken. I imagine the American secret police aren't as practiced as the Stasi; these things take time, after all. I'm sure they're still refining their techniques, and hope one day to be just as good at what they do, for roughly the same reasons.

Of course, this is exactly the kind of practice that gives America the sort of reputation for committing vile acts in secrecy that motivated Manning to do this in the first place, that motivated the existence of Wikileaks so that Manning could do this in the first place. Which is largely lost on the budding American security state, naturally.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Thanas wrote:You know, Obama's background makes it even worse. Bush was a drunken white frat boy. Obama is an extremely intelligent black civil rights lawyer and constitutional scholar.
Would this be the right occasion to invoke this as an example of La Trahison de Clercs?
weemadando wrote:I think the issue is that the majority of Americans regardless of party have the same hard on for their MURICAH and stoppin' dem ebil terrywrists. If he was "soft on terror" he risks losing his democratic base, not just further alienating the right.
Is it really something wrong with the average American or is it just a skewed picture reflected by the lazy, toothless and complacent mainstream media? I'm still having hope it's the latter.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Thanas wrote:Obama worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago. He should know this stuff by heart. There is no way in hell that he does not know about what is allowed at prisons and what isn't.
Not to defend the President, on this, but teaching constitutional law doesn't require knowledge of every aspect of the Constitution. In fact, I've never heard of any lawyer rating themselves as having even a passing familiarity with the entire thing. He probably taught things like Commerce Clause, Freedom of Speech (and Association), and maybe the basic provisions touching on Criminal Procedure, none of which has anything to do with the rights of detainees or prisoners. It's perfectly possible for a scholar of "constitutional law" not to have any familiarity whatsoever with these aspects of the Constitution.

For that matter, I honestly don't know if this is constitutional or not. I really don't have any sense of that since I don't know anything about constitutional restrictions and limits on the treatment of military members held on federal charges.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Indeed, but the combination with civil rights seems to suggest otherwise.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Master of Ossus wrote:For that matter, I honestly don't know if this is constitutional or not. I really don't have any sense of that since I don't know anything about constitutional restrictions and limits on the treatment of military members held on federal charges.
The eighth amendment, guaranteeing freedom from cruel and unusual punishment, seems relevant, and it isn't exactly obscure.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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SCRawl wrote:The eighth amendment, guaranteeing freedom from cruel and unusual punishment, seems relevant, and it isn't exactly obscure.
Well, I'm sure that the Eighth Amendment limits how prisoners can be treated, but I don't know what those limits are. For that matter, he's not even being punished, yet--he hasn't been convicted. This is just a detention pending trial.
Thanas wrote:Indeed, but the combination with civil rights seems to suggest otherwise.
That probably means that he's a Fourteenth Amendment scholar who specializes in Equal Protection. It doesn't mean that he's versed in the Eighth Amendment, or anything else that deals with treatment of detainees.

Mind you, I'm not trying to say that what's happening with Manning is "right," and I don't have anything intelligent to say one way or another as to whether it's constitutional or not (for all I know, as SCRawl alluded, the Eighth Amendment might well have been interpreted to absolutely bar these sorts of things). I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that Obama is honestly clueless as to how the constitution applies to this situation--which is still a far cry from saying that he's right to permit it.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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If he was honestly clueless wouldn't it be the more prudent thing for him to inform himself first before coming out and supporting Manning's treatment?
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Metahive wrote:If he was honestly clueless wouldn't it be the more prudent thing for him to inform himself first before coming out and supporting Manning's treatment?
Based on his own statement, he has:
I have actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of his confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards. They assure me that they are.
Plus there's the obvious issue that a detailed examination the minutia of an individual's treatment isn't his business - he's got a million and one other things to be getting on with as head of government.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Poking through the UCMJ. I cam across this in regards to punishment and detention:
§ 813. Art. 13. Punishment prohibited before trial wrote:No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances require to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.
Whether it applies or not I'm not 100% sure.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

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Captain Seafort wrote:Plus there's the obvious issue that a detailed examination the minutia of an individual's treatment isn't his business - he's got a million and one other things to be getting on with as head of government.
You see, I found this sort of excuse always rather spurious, especially in a case like this were fundamental civil rights are at stake. If the President is really short on time and has a million better things to do, he should stay silent rather than give half-baked official statements.
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Re: Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

Post by Simon_Jester »

Metahive wrote:
weemadando wrote:Is it really something wrong with the average American or is it just a skewed picture reflected by the lazy, toothless and complacent mainstream media? I'm still having hope it's the latter.
A little from Column A, a little from Column B, I think.

By failing to accurately present the facts of state torture of political prisoners, the media encourages the public not to think about it, or to think about it in softened, spun terms. "We need to be hard on terrorists" is a much more widely supported statement than "we need to leave enemies of the state trapped naked in a box all day while we systematically drive them mad with sleep deprivation."

Remember the Abu Gharaib pictures? Those made such a big flash and bang on the national news at the time in large part because they got past the warm fuzzy "keeping America safe!" story that made up the official propaganda. A large number of Americans saw exactly what was going down, and didn't like it.

That's key to understanding modern American politics: everything gets so smothered in comforting bullshit that very few people fully grasp what is happening and recognize the historical context clearly enough to be alarmed by it.
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