Death Penalty Abolished in US State of Illinois

[Broomstick]

Just heard over the TV - Governor Quinn of Illinois just signed into law a bill abolishing the death penalty in Illinois. All people now sitting on death row will have their sentences commuted to life in prison without parole.

As a death penalty opponent, I view this as progress.

[Guardsman Bass]

This is good news.

I oppose the death penalty mostly because of the "false conviction" issue. At least with "life imprisonment" prisoners, there's a chance that their conviction might be over-turned later on if incorrect. Not so with executed prisoners.

Then there's the mixed evidence on its deterrence value, as well as issues of cost (it's costly and time-consuming to convict and execute a prisoner due to the appeals process).

[bobalot]

This is good news.

I oppose the death penalty mostly because of the "false conviction" issue. At least with "life imprisonment" prisoners, there's a chance that their conviction might be over-turned later on if incorrect. Not so with executed prisoners.

Then there's the mixed evidence on its deterrence value, as well as issues of cost (it's costly and time-consuming to convict and execute a prisoner due to the appeals process).

Wouldn't it be more costly to imprison the prisoner for life?

[Alyeska]

Wouldn't it be more costly to imprison the prisoner for life?

The necessary appeals process to ensure the accuracy of Death Penalty convictions is actually very costly. Simply putting them in prison for life does not increase costs. Some studies even indicate it would be cheaper.

[Mr Bean]

Wouldn't it be more costly to imprison the prisoner for life?

The necessary appeals process to ensure the accuracy of Death Penalty convictions is actually very costly. Simply putting them in prison for life does not increase costs. Some studies even indicate it would be cheaper.

This is only because we don't treat death row inmates any differently than standard inmates meaning they are fighting schedule timing with every parole review as well as new cases. The assumption is still made despite being on death row that you won't appeal your conviction while on death row. Row inmates are held in seperate cells and sometimes entirely different locations purpose built for this purpose and they can spend twenty years before they are under the threat of being executed. This incurs additional cost as does the cost of the state having to try and stop the death row inmate from getting another appeal on their case. Being death row cases even the flimsily of excuses can get another court hearing and another six month delay. If we built a sane system into place that included the assumption of automatic review we might not be spending so much money in court fighting death row inmates objections (If it's a lawyer paid for by the state and they cook up two dozen objections to the case each of which must be heard separately and in turn and defended against by the state that runs up lots of billable hours). So why not install a system of automatic review, say at the one year mark the defended gets a chance to bring up all procedural issues and then is given two years for any fallout of that case. At the three year mark he gets another shot at anything else left out as well as tracking down any new information he wants to present. At the five year mark (Or eight or ten) he is given a full second trial that he must also be proven guilty at and if done so the date of execute is set for 30 days hence with the Governor and President being informed in case either wants to commute the sentence then execution.

There's also the raw mechanics of death and how crazy complicated and expensive it is. Gas Chambers, the electric chair and lethal injection with crazy drug combinations of rare drugs? Here's an idea, put them under with Nitrous oxide then OD them on Morphine, or just OD them on greater and greater amounts of morphine and let them die in euphoria.

I am opposed to outlawing the death penalty for several reason which I've brought up and debated here, I am in fact considered an extremist on this point but I'll just bring up the one more popular agreement, the Dead Guard exception. Where in someone already under a life sentence murders a prison guard or any other person. That this person's sentence be converted to a death sentence and carried out once sufficient court review has been allowed.

[open_sketchbook]

I used to be anti-death penalty, but I was converted over to the pro line of thinking. (on this site, none the less) However, I'm still pretty anti-death penalty in the States because of the combination of racism, broke-ass judicial system, and because the other people that want the death penalty in the United States mostly want it because they are batshit insane religious nuts or "hard on crime" politicians fishing for votes amoung those psychos. You need a system much less fucked than the prison-industrial complex in the US for the death penalty to be applied fairly.

[The Romulan Republic]

I am firmly anti-death penalty and applaud Illinois for this reform.

Most of the key points have already been covered. Cost, false convictions, etc. There's also my general moral opposition to needless death, or doing anything for the sake of punishment.

[Captain Seafort]

This is good news.

I oppose the death penalty mostly because of the "false conviction" issue. At least with "life imprisonment" prisoners, there's a chance that their conviction might be over-turned later on if incorrect. Not so with executed prisoners.

QFT. If anyone can ever guarantee, without any possibility of error, that the accused individual is guilty, I might reconsider. Until such time, not a chance.

[Crown]

The state should never be afforded the right to kill its own citizens. The entire idea is abhorrent to me as social, left wing, pinko commie and yet the frothing at the mouth right wing who want to abolish government are the strongest supporters of the death penalty. The world is just full of weird, it well and truly is.

[Rye]

This is good news.

I oppose the death penalty mostly because of the "false conviction" issue. At least with "life imprisonment" prisoners, there's a chance that their conviction might be over-turned later on if incorrect. Not so with executed prisoners.

QFT. If anyone can ever guarantee, without any possibility of error, that the accused individual is guilty, I might reconsider. Until such time, not a chance.

What about this guy? I would be happy with him killed by the system. Plus it's not like people are convicted for life with some perfect error rate.

[Captain Seafort]

What about this guy?

Him, Shipman, Pol Pot, take your pick. Unless it's utterly impossible for an innocent man to be executed then the death penalty has no place in any civilised society.

Plus it's not like people are convicted for life with some perfect error rate.

Sure, but if you fuck up and lock an innocent man up you always have the option of releasing him if said fuckup comes to light. Raising the dead is a tad more difficult.

[Vendetta]

What about this guy? I would be happy with him killed by the system. Plus it's not like people are convicted for life with some perfect error rate.

Appeals to emotion do not promote good reasoning. You can't argue a subject like this from individual cases, you have to look at the overall performance of the justice system, and that performance over the last few decades (especially in the type of cases where the death penalty might be sought, such as the Birmingham pub bombings) has spoken firmly against having the death penalty as an option.

The error rate is too high given the consequence of an error.

[Zor]

I have never seen any evidence that the Death Penalty is an effective means of lowering crime. Good Riddance.

Zor

[MKSheppard]

What I like about Quinn's announcement the most:

LINK

"If the system can't be guaranteed, 100-percent error-free, then we shouldn't have the system," Quinn said. "It cannot stand."

AWESOME. Set an impossible standard, and then when humanity can't hold up to the standard, use it to get what you want.

[Shroom Man 777]

Mr Bean, how expensive are the death penalty drugs? Isn't potassium chloride one of the primary ingredients? How expensive can that be?

[Mr Bean]

Mr Bean, how expensive are the death penalty drugs? Isn't potassium chloride one of the primary ingredients? How expensive can that be?

New York Times

Substitutes Sought for Deadly Drug
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: March 10, 2011

The federal government told state attorneys general that it had run out of a crucial execution drug and was exploring alternatives, dashing states’ hopes of obtaining a federal supply of the drug. In January, states wrote Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. asking for help obtaining sodium thiopental. The anesthetic is used by virtually all death penalty states, but supplies ran short when its American manufacturer stopped production. “The federal government does not have any reserves of sodium thiopental for lethal injections and is therefore facing the same dilemma as many states,” Mr. Holder said in a March 4 letter sent to the National Association of Attorneys General and obtained by The Associated Press. He said federal officials were researching alternatives. The immediate impact of the federal shortage is minimal. A lawsuit challenging the government’s injection procedures is pending, and the government has not executed anyone since 2003. Meanwhile, Ohio on Thursday put to death Johnnie Baston, a Toledo store owner’s killer, with the country’s first use of the surgical sedative pentobarbital as a standalone execution drug. Ohio switched to pentobarbital after sodium thiopental production was discontinued. Oklahoma also uses pentobarbital, a barbiturate, but with other drugs.

Lethal injection in the united states at the moment is Sodium thiopental, Pancuronium bromide, Potassium chloride. A lethal injection dose can vary per death row inmate body weight but the standard is five grams of Sodium thipental, 100 millgrams Pancuronium, plus some amount of Potassium chloride. Figures I've seen is that each lethal injection dose is 518$ all the way to 2900$ per injection I'm guess because of the amount of Sodium thiopental which has much less secondanry uses that Pancuronium bromide and Potassium chloride have.

By contrast a 10 gram dose of morphine can be had for under 150$ In raw costs anyway and 10 grams twenty times the lethal dose for the average person. So lets increase it to 25 grams of Morphine administered over five minutes and we are still looking at 400$ or less to kill someone painlessly. The morphine dose causes first unconsciousness then respiration ceases and they die.

[Shroom Man 777]

Mmm... yeah. What causes them to go with the current lethal injection formulation over, say, morphine overdose? Don't they use morphine OD for euthanasia anyway?

[Mr Bean]

Mmm... yeah. What causes them to go with the current lethal injection formulation over, say, morphine overdose? Don't they use morphine OD for euthanasia anyway?

It's Oklahoma state medical examiner Jay Chapman and former state Rep Bill Wiseman fault as far as I can tell. The two of them or just Jay were the ones in 77 to come up with the idea of lethal injection and get the method passed. Since then over states being lazy copied them.

Then, in 1977, an Oklahoma medical examiner named Jay Chapman proposed that death-row inmates be executed using three drugs administered in a specific sequence: a barbiturate (to anesthetize inmates), pancuronium bromide (to paralyze inmates and stop their breathing) and lastly potassium chloride (which stops the heart). A simpler, barbiturate-only procedure was rejected on the grounds that the public would not support a killing method for humans modeled after that used for animals, according to Ty Alper, a lawyer who represents death-row inmates and is associate director of the Death Penalty Clinic at the University of California at Berkeley School of Law.

Despite the fact that Chapman had scant experience with pharmacology — his expertise was in forensic pathology — the proposal was well received. Lethal injection gave executioners another option besides electrocution, which could set inmates on fire and cause extreme pain; in addition, prisoners who were paralyzed would not writhe around or cry out as they died, which made watching executions easier for witnesses. Chapman's proposal was approved by the Oklahoma state legislature the same year and quickly adopted by other states. In 1982, Texas became the first to use the procedure, executing 40-year-old Charles Brooks for murdering Fort Worth mechanic David Gregory.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... z1GLydAdCr

[Alyeska]

I remember watching a British documentary on execution and they interviewed one of the key developers of the original triple drug lethal injection. The British reporter asked about the possibility of more humane ways to execute people such as hypoxia. The American flat disagreed and said he wants the criminals to suffer as they die.

Gah, how vindictive. Your already taking their life, but they have to suffer in death?

I am not a big fan of the current American system of Capital Punishment for a variety of reasons. One thing that I believe would make it less repugnant would be a system designed to make death painless. Either a massive single dose of a drug such as morphine, or use of a painless gas substance that causes a hypoxia. Both will kill, both are completely painless.

[Broomstick]

AWESOME. Set an impossible standard, and then when humanity can't hold up to the standard, use it to get what you want.

The death penalty in Illinois was suspended when it was found half the people sitting on Death Row were innocent. No system that flawed should be continued.

[Gil Hamilton]

I remember watching a British documentary on execution and they interviewed one of the key developers of the original triple drug lethal injection. The British reporter asked about the possibility of more humane ways to execute people such as hypoxia. The American flat disagreed and said he wants the criminals to suffer as they die.

Gah, how vindictive. Your already taking their life, but they have to suffer in death?

I am not a big fan of the current American system of Capital Punishment for a variety of reasons. One thing that I believe would make it less repugnant would be a system designed to make death painless. Either a massive single dose of a drug such as morphine, or use of a painless gas substance that causes a hypoxia. Both will kill, both are completely painless.

I've heard this that the triple drug injection is supposedly really painful, but that the person can't express it because they are paralyzed.

I always wondered about that for two reasons:

1) If the person can't express anything and then they die, how does anyone know what sort of pain they are in and
2) One of the chemicals used is also used for major surgeries (sodium pentathol) for general anesthesia. In fact, it's sufficiently powerful that you can cut opens someone's chest with an electric saw and it doesn't wake them up, let alone let them feel it. I'm skeptical, to say the least, that anyone can feel anything when given a massive dose of the stuff. In surgery, the dosage is extremely carefully measured. In an execution, it's well beyond the LD50 of the drug. Interestingly, sodium pentathol has been replaced not because it's secretly painful, but because it's TOO good at gorking people out and recovering from it takes a longer time.

Given that executed prisoners are up to their ass in the stuff, I wonder how the triple drug injection is painful. This isn't being confrontational, but I've only heard it as hearsay and not from any medical papers on the matter. It smacks of an urban legend to me.

[Freefall]

AWESOME. Set an impossible standard, and then when humanity can't hold up to the standard, use it to get what you want.

The death penalty in Illinois was suspended when it was found half the people sitting on Death Row were innocent. No system that flawed should be continued.

Obviously any judicial system that can't offer better odds of a correct conviction than flipping a coin is deeply flawed regardless of what kinds of punishments it permits, and the whole thing should be massively investigated and overhauled.

[Highlord Laan]

I'm in the middle when it comes to the death penalty. On one hand, I feel the judicial system is so fucked and skewed that it's way too accessible to vindictive courts to be allowed, on the other, I do think there are crimes that warrant it being an option. However, I think the death penalty should only be brought to the table if the case is as ironclad as they come, and the crime is heinous enough to call for it. Calling for the death penalty should also be something stated early on, and doing so should bring even more oversight to bear on the entire legal proceeding.

Hell, I'd establish an entire court solely to hear such cases, both to determine if the harshest penalty is actually called for, and to make sure everything from jury and judge re-selection and the whole legal action is performed under a microscope. I think it should be an option, but with the punishment that dire, extreme caution should be used.

As for quick and painless, I've always wondered why firing squads stopped being used. If there's worry of the heart being missed, use a larger caliber.

[Broomstick]

Although Utah officially switched from firing squad to lethal injection in 2004, those subject to the death penalty before that date who had chosen firing squad can still be executed by that method, so we may see that three more times in Utah.

Outside of Utah, I don't think firing squad was ever a common mode of execution in the US, though certainly it has been used elsewhere.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I remember watching a British documentary on execution and they interviewed one of the key developers of the original triple drug lethal injection. The British reporter asked about the possibility of more humane ways to execute people such as hypoxia. The American flat disagreed and said he wants the criminals to suffer as they die.

Gah, how vindictive. Your already taking their life, but they have to suffer in death?

I am not a big fan of the current American system of Capital Punishment for a variety of reasons. One thing that I believe would make it less repugnant would be a system designed to make death painless. Either a massive single dose of a drug such as morphine, or use of a painless gas substance that causes a hypoxia. Both will kill, both are completely painless.

I've heard this that the triple drug injection is supposedly really painful, but that the person can't express it because they are paralyzed.

I always wondered about that for two reasons:

1) If the person can't express anything and then they die, how does anyone know what sort of pain they are in and
2) One of the chemicals used is also used for major surgeries (sodium pentathol) for general anesthesia. In fact, it's sufficiently powerful that you can cut opens someone's chest with an electric saw and it doesn't wake them up, let alone let them feel it. I'm skeptical, to say the least, that anyone can feel anything when given a massive dose of the stuff. In surgery, the dosage is extremely carefully measured. In an execution, it's well beyond the LD50 of the drug. Interestingly, sodium pentathol has been replaced not because it's secretly painful, but because it's TOO good at gorking people out and recovering from it takes a longer time.

Given that executed prisoners are up to their ass in the stuff, I wonder how the triple drug injection is painful. This isn't being confrontational, but I've only heard it as hearsay and not from any medical papers on the matter. It smacks of an urban legend to me.

From what I know of this, which is limited to discussing it over lunch with one of the pharmacology lecturers for a reason I can't quite remember, it's because the sodium thiopental is an utra-fast acting sedative. The worry is that the person will recover consciousness before they die, but afterthe pancuronium causes muscle paralysis. They then suffer the agon of slowsuffocationas well as the potassium chloride injection, which is apparently incredibly painful.

The sodium thiopental is used in anesthesia, but only to get them under, and then other drugs are used to keep them under.

Apparently, the higher the dose, the faster in knocks you out but also the faster it is cleared out of your brain.

I don't understand why they don't just use a gas mask connected to a nitrogen or a helium canister. Apparently it causes unconsciousness in about 20 seconds and death in a few minutes, complete with a painless euphoria before you go.