Obama personnally supports treatment of Manning

[Master of Ossus]

If he was honestly clueless wouldn't it be the more prudent thing for him to inform himself first before coming out and supporting Manning's treatment?

Oh, absolutely. Like I said, I'm not trying to defend his handling of the situation. I'm merely pointing out that it's entirely possible for him to have no knowledge of the relevant constitutional limits. In fact, I'd actually be surprised if he did know anything about them.

Poking through the UCMJ. I cam across this in regards to punishment and detention:

No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances require to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.

Whether it applies or not I'm not 100% sure.

I'd be surprised. What seems to be happening, here, wouldn't be classified as "punishment." The people in charge of his detention would probably argue that these are all measures designed to protect him. Obviously you or I could argue that these measures are unnecessary and harmful, but that doesn't make them "punishments."

[Aaron]

Yeah I see what you mean.

[Captain Seafort]

Plus there's the obvious issue that a detailed examination the minutia of an individual's treatment isn't his business - he's got a million and one other things to be getting on with as head of government.

You see, I found this sort of excuse always rather spurious, especially in a case like this were fundamental civil rights are at stake. If the President is really short on time and has a million better things to do, he should stay silent rather than give half-baked official statements.

He did what anyone with a senior role in any organisation does: instructed his subordinates to investigate and report back to him, and based his actions on that report. It's impossible for him to have any closer personal control than that.

[Metahive]

I would not consider asking the very guys who are suspected of wrongdoing if they were indeed doing anything wrong and then taking their answer as gospel to be something "anyone with a senior role in any organization" would be wise to replicate unless he wants to look stupid and/or corrupt.

[Serafina]

Plus there's the obvious issue that a detailed examination the minutia of an individual's treatment isn't his business - he's got a million and one other things to be getting on with as head of government.

You see, I found this sort of excuse always rather spurious, especially in a case like this were fundamental civil rights are at stake. If the President is really short on time and has a million better things to do, he should stay silent rather than give half-baked official statements.

He did what anyone with a senior role in any organisation does: instructed his subordinates to investigate and report back to him, and based his actions on that report. It's impossible for him to have any closer personal control than that.

He could ask an organisation that actually cares about such stuff, rather than the people who are suspected of wrongdoing.
Still, an understandable error, if we assume it is not deliberate.

[Aaron]

Really, anyone can see that if other prisoners in solitary are not being kept in that manner and he is, that something is very fishy.

He could ask an organisation that actually cares about such stuff, rather than the people who are suspected of wrongdoing.
Still, an understandable error, if we assume it is not deliberate.

You mean like the Red Cross?

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think Obama deserves the benefit of the doubt to that extent any more. If he isn't willfully blind to human rights abuses by the US government he has to know they're going on by now; the fact that he doesn't put any real effort into correcting them is a sign that he views... whatever it is he does with his time instead... as more important.

[Stofsk]

Really, anyone can see that if other prisoners in solitary are not being kept in that manner and he is, that something is very fishy.

Yeah. The procedures for suicide watch inside prisons here are you strip the person of clothing but then you put them in this kind of thick canvas overall/smock which is designed so that you can't tear it into strips for making a noose. They're then put in an observation cell which has round-the-clock video feed of the entire cell, which is itself constructed in such a way that there aren't any protrusions from which you could hang yourself from. There's also a lower tier for suicide watch, which is like the 'feel bad about being in prison but not demonstrable risk of self-harm' where you're in a regular cell but they check on you every hour on the hour.

Conversely, 'management' (i.e. punishment) cells and units are for those who have been misbehaving. There you're locked in a cell for 23 hours a day. This is where corrupt cops, certain 'high-profile' prisoners and anyone who's basically been an irredeemable cunt to other prisoners goes. There are also 'protection' units, where prisoners who have identified a risk to themselves are sequestered along with all the other snitches, pedophiles, and sex offenders. I always wondered why there aren't similar units and similar prisons in American jails (there are actually prisons in here which are catered for sex offenders, just so that they can't be put in the mainstream population), as I understand someone who's at risk of jailhouse retribution hasn't really got any recourse other than solitary confinement.

Anyway, as far as Manning is concerned, he's clearly being 'managed'. If there was a credible self-harm issue I feel that his current predicament is only exacerbating it.

[Aaron]

It's clearly bullshit. Honestly, I expect it to come out in the future that he's been physically abused as well. I really don't want to think about whats going to happen when he gets to an actual prison.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

So are the other detainee's in solitary kept like this as well?

No, not even those on suicide watch.

And what "safety concerns" are there that require him to be naked, shackled while on exercise or questioned every few minutes?

Apparently, Manning made a quip a few weeks ago that they took his shoelaces because he might off himself. Then, this policy was instituted. Over the objections of the base psychiatrist, who decided that there was no suicide risk at all.

EDIT: Oh, and never mind that suicide watch does not mean "removal of all underwear, blankets and pillows" in normal circumstances.

It's very obvious they're trying to make him suicidal. As for Obama, I'm going to the poll in '12 to be counted, but I'm not voting for either candidate. If anyone asks me why I'm not voting for him, I'll just tell them Obama officially sanctioned the torture of Pvt. Manning, and by extension, anyone else on the planet. Well, anyone except the rich bankers and warmongers that caused this mess to begin with.

Why is Obama doing this? He's not getting any respect from the right wing no matter how "tough" and "properly patriotic" he tries to make himself look and he's alienating the rest. Why hasn't he caught onto that? It's not like this is some super-secret fact that needs to be divined via the Delphic Oracle or something.

I think Obama's making a very obvious point of selling liberalism as far down the river as possible precisely to drive the nails into the coffin of the American Left. His loyalty is to the corporate, not the constitutional. He's driving it home that to be liberal is futile.

[Sarevok]

Poor guy. The damage is done, if he were let go now or after serving a term there is no further harm he can do. It is pretty clear he is not being locked up for justice. They want to make a draconian example out of him. So that anyone ever thinking of leaking a document thinks twice.

Mannings is essentially filling the same roles as the thieves in Saudi Arabia whose hands are amputated in front of public to deter future shoplifters.

[Serafina]

You mean like the Red Cross?

Or Amnesty International, or some other organisation. Or he could launch an independent investigation - at least send some non-military lawyers and doctors in there.
But right now, he is just taking "oh, we are treating that scumbag alright, believe us" at face value. Given it's actions in the past decade, the US-military does not deserve that kind of trust.

By the way, one of the reasons the Stasi-prison i mentioned operated like that in order to make it look like the prisoners were treated well. If the USA want to become a torturing police state, they still have to learn a lot (by the way, we need a barfing smiley).

[Thanas]

This is an atrocious video, but it raises an excellent point.

If this would be done under Bush, would the Democrats have stayed silent? What moral right does the US have in critizising Egypt or Saudi Arabia when they thrown people in jail without trial and torture them if this happens? And why is Gitmo still open and nobody on the left critizises Obama on it?

[Koolaidkirby]

I for one will find this hilarious if the charges against Manning are dropped because of some violation they made in order to "set an example"

[Aaron]

I for one will find this hilarious if the charges against Manning are dropped because of some violation they made in order to "set an example"

Same. Personally I think he should be released and then compensated for this. I realize that the military and civvie law doesn't exactly mesh but wouldn't his trial and the evidence be tainted after this? And wasn't police torture and brutality the reason behind the Miranda Rights?

[Thanas]

That won't work. Obama's goons have prevented any trial/compensation, even for people who they admitted they imprisoned falsely. And as this is framed as security measure, the chances of Manning getting off on this are about the same as me being elected king of the USA.

[eyl]

I for one will find this hilarious if the charges against Manning are dropped because of some violation they made in order to "set an example"

Same. Personally I think he should be released and then compensated for this. I realize that the military and civvie law doesn't exactly mesh but wouldn't his trial and the evidence be tainted after this? And wasn't police torture and brutality the reason behind the Miranda Rights?

Wouldn't that apply only to evidence obtained while he was being interrogated during or after this treatment?

[Aaron]

Probably.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well, I'm sure that the Eighth Amendment limits how prisoners can be treated, but I don't know what those limits are. For that matter, he's not even being punished, yet--he hasn't been convicted. This is just a detention pending trial.

So... We can torture people prior to conviction, not after? How exactly does this make sense at all?

[Todeswind]

Well, I'm sure that the Eighth Amendment limits how prisoners can be treated, but I don't know what those limits are. For that matter, he's not even being punished, yet--he hasn't been convicted. This is just a detention pending trial.

So... We can torture people prior to conviction, not after? How exactly does this make sense at all?

The big issue is in determining if it is considered to be torture under US legal code

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/us ... -000-.html

As used in this chapter—

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

(C) the threat of imminent death; or

(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and

(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

Part (B) is the relevant portion for Manning's situation. As long as they are able to justify his treatment as being part of suicide prevention it isn't done with the intention of disrupting his personality but is instead being done for his protection then it isn't considered to be torture under US criminal law. This is, of course, up for debate.

[Serafina]

Sleep deprivation for prolonged amounts of time is classified as torture by Amnesty International. As i have stated above, it was also regared as a torture method by the Stasi.
Prolonged sleep deprivation induces a variety of both psychological and physiological harm, such as continuous headaches, extreme physical weakness, a severe impairment of the immune system and therefore a variety of illnesses, enormous mental stress, severe depression and a variety of other things. It's certainly much more "neat & clean" than most other forms of torture, and it takes much more time, but that doesn't make it inherently different.

Even if you disagree with both Amnesty International and professonal "interrogation specialists" and say that prolonged sleep deprivation is not torture, then it is certainly cruel and extremely unpleasant. Prisoners should not be subject to such conditions.

[Todeswind]

Perhaps we're reading different sources but I was under the impression that the, admittedly stringent, conditions under which manning is being kept are the following.

PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.

[]

He is not allowed to have a pillow or sheets. However, he is given access to two blankets and has recently been given a new mattress that has a built-in pillow.

He is not allowed to have any personal items in his cell.

[]

He is prevented from exercising in his cell. If he attempts to do push-ups, sit-ups, or any other form of exercise he will be forced to stop.

He does receive one hour of “exercise” outside of his cell daily. He is taken to an empty room and only allowed to walk. PFC Manning normally just walks figure eights in the room for the entire hour. If he indicates that he no long feels like walking, he is immediately returned to his cell.

When PFC Manning goes to sleep, he is required to strip down to his boxer shorts and surrender his clothing to the guards. His clothing is returned to him the next morning.

I was unaware that they were engaging in sleep deprivation, where is that cited?

[Elfdart]

I wonder if Nidal Hasan, who is awaiting trial for shooting fellow soldiers and clearly is a nutjob, is subjected to this kind of degradation? I also wonder in the soldiers awaiting trial for murdering Afghan civilians for sport are forced to stand naked in their cells on a regular basis.

Actually I don't wonder.

[Todeswind]

I wonder if Nidal Hasan, who is awaiting trial for shooting fellow soldiers and clearly is a nutjob, is subjected to this kind of degradation? I also wonder in the soldiers awaiting trial for murdering Afghan civilians for sport are forced to stand naked in their cells on a regular basis.

Actually I don't wonder.

Very well what are the conditions of their detention?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Perhaps we're reading different sources but I was under the impression that the, admittedly stringent, conditions under which manning is being kept are the following.

PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.

[]

He is not allowed to have a pillow or sheets. However, he is given access to two blankets and has recently been given a new mattress that has a built-in pillow.

He is not allowed to have any personal items in his cell.

[]

He is prevented from exercising in his cell. If he attempts to do push-ups, sit-ups, or any other form of exercise he will be forced to stop.

He does receive one hour of “exercise” outside of his cell daily. He is taken to an empty room and only allowed to walk. PFC Manning normally just walks figure eights in the room for the entire hour. If he indicates that he no long feels like walking, he is immediately returned to his cell.

When PFC Manning goes to sleep, he is required to strip down to his boxer shorts and surrender his clothing to the guards. His clothing is returned to him the next morning.

I was unaware that they were engaging in sleep deprivation, where is that cited?

Think about this for a moment.

23 hours of isolation a day, no personal items, no exercise. You dont think horrific boredom is damaging to one's mental state?


http://my.firedoglake.com/blog/2010/12/ ... onditions/

Manning related to me on December 19 2010 that his blankets are similar in weight and heft to lead aprons used in X-ray laboratories, and similar in texture to coarse and stiff carpet. He stated explicitly that the blankets are not soft in the least and expressed concern that he had to lie very still at night to avoid receiving carpet burns. The problem of carpet burns was exacerbated, he related, by the stipulation that he must sleep only in his boxer shorts as part of the longstanding POI order. Manning also stated on December 19 2010 that hallway-mounted lights shine through his window at night. This constant illumination is consistent with reports from attorney David Coombs’ blog that marines must visually inspect Manning as he sleeps.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... ing-prison

It is the first time Manning has spoken publicly about his treatment, having previously only been heard through the intermediaries of his lawyer and a friend. Details that have emerged up to now have inspired the UN to launch an inquiry into whether the conditions amount to torture, and have led to protests to the US government from Amnesty International.

The most graphic passage of the letter is Manning's description of how he was placed on suicide watch for three days from 18 January. "I was stripped of all clothing with the exception of my underwear. My prescription eyeglasses were taken away from me and I was forced to sit in essential blindness."

Manning writes that he believes the suicide watch was imposed not because he was a danger to himself but as retribution for a protest about his treatment held outside Quantico the day before. Immediately before the suicide watch started, he said guards verbally harassed him, taunting him with conflicting orders.

When he was told he was being put on suicide watch, he writes, "I became upset. Out of frustration, I clenched my hair with my fingers and yelled: 'Why are you doing this to me? Why am I being punished? I have done nothing wrong.'"

And there is the sleep deprivation, and punitive nature of the whole thing. He is also woken up when he is curled up in his bed outside the view of guards. Keep in mind, this is under full hallway illumination of his bed, nude under what is basically a rug. Seems like a pretty good system for keeping someone deprived of sleep without anything as gauche as a boom-box or hourly buckets of cold water...