Earthquake off Japan

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The idea of evacuating the plant just has me boiling with rage at the moment. This is a pathetic dereliction of ethical duty by all involved.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The idea of evacuating the plant just has me boiling with rage at the moment. This is a pathetic dereliction of ethical duty by all involved.

So you would happily go commit suicide working there?

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, they have to finish the job to prevent a greater catastrophe. Those liquidators at Chernobyl never evacuated, did they?

[TimothyC]

The idea of evacuating the plant just has me boiling with rage at the moment. This is a pathetic dereliction of ethical duty by all involved.

So you would happily go commit suicide working there?

From my limited schooling on the subject (one class period of IME-101 at Kettering the better half of a decade ago), Engineers have a legal (at least in the US) and an ethical duty to protect the public first. Any responsibility to employer, family, or self is secondary.

If I were an engineer at that plant, yes I would stay, because that is what I signed up for.

[phongn]

Well, they have to finish the job to prevent a greater catastrophe. Those liquidators at Chernobyl never evacuated, did they?

There were guys who swam through radioactive water at Chernobyl.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

From my limited schooling on the subject (one class period of IME-101 at Kettering the better half of a decade ago), Engineers have a legal (at least in the US) and an ethical duty to protect the public first. Any responsibility to employer, family, or self is secondary.

If I were an engineer at that plant, yes I would stay, because that is what I signed up for.

SO I guess you signed up for a coffin too?

There were guys who swam through radioactive water at Chernobyl.

All of them died within a year later too.

[phongn]

SO I guess you signed up for a coffin too?

Isn't that part of the risk of being a nuclear operator?

There were guys who swam through radioactive water at Chernobyl.

All of them died within a year later too.

You don't think they knew they were dead men the moment they hit water?

[Phantasee]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
NHK in English.

Mother Jones has had decent coverage of the situation at Fukushima: http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011 ... -emergency

[Exonerate]

Quoting some IAEA updates since their site has been going up and down intermittently.
IAEA Updates:

Japan Earthquake Update (16 March 2011, 03:55 UTC)

Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that a fire in the reactor building of unit 4 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant was visually observed at 20:45 UTC of 15 March. As of 21:15 UTC of the same day, the fire could no longer be observed.

Fire of 14 March

As previously reported, at 23:54 UTC of 14 March a fire had occurred at unit 4. The fire lasted around two hours and was confirmed to be extinguished at 02:00 UTC of 15 March.

So the second fire is also out. Encouraging.

Water level in unit 5

Japanese authorities have also informed the IAEA that at 12:00 UTC of 15 March the water level in unit 5 had decreased to 201 cm above the top of the fuel. This was a 40 cm decrease since 07:00 UTC of 15 March. Officials at the plant were planning to use an operational diesel generator in unit 6 to supply water to unit 5.

The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves.

Not so encouraging. I'm given to understand there's a fuckton of water in the pool and an NEI fact sheet says decrease in water levels shouldn't be more than a few percent a day. Yet in just 5 hours 40 cm has disappeared - what the fuck? Is there a leak? Or is the water being evaporated (and if so, does this mean there a criticality accident has occurred?)

[TimothyC]

SO I guess you signed up for a coffin too?

If I worked there, then yes. As Phong said, it's a risk; just like being shot in Iraq is a risk for one of my cousins.

[Simon_Jester]

The idea of evacuating the plant just has me boiling with rage at the moment. This is a pathetic dereliction of ethical duty by all involved.

So you would happily go commit suicide working there?

For certain values of "happily," I'd say yes, she would. Trust me on this one, I know her.

That said, the Chernobyl standard of courage and willingness to risk- to expend- one's life to keep the plant from killing civilians... you can't ask that of someone who didn't volunteer to be there, but the plant workers do.

In any civilization, there are going to be jobs where when really horrible disaster strikes, someone winds up having "to stand an' be still to the Birken'ead drill." It's just not going to be avoidable, unless you want to accept disasters with results far worse than the death of the people going in.

That's especially true in something like a nuclear power plant, where as we've seen a few hours' inattention can make a relatively controllable problem enormously worse. The plant has to be monitored and kept under control, or a lot of people- both on site and off- could die.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The idea of evacuating the plant just has me boiling with rage at the moment. This is a pathetic dereliction of ethical duty by all involved.

So you would happily go commit suicide working there?

YES. And when my mind was filled with terror and doubt, I'd imagine even one six year old girl dying of leukemia in a critical care ward and know that my life is worth keeping that from happening even if that's the only death caused by my failure to act. Still better for me to die than her!

[Magis]

Now according to the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum, there is a suspected loss of integrity of primary containment of unit 2.

Observe the design of the reactor, however. Damage to the torus is still fully contained within the concrete sealed basement of the facility. In short the radioactive material is confined within secondary containment, because even despite the upper part of the building being destroyed the surface-level concrete floor seals in the concrete lined basement containing the torus.

Yes, but the problem is that secondary containment is not very strong, and that the suppression pool is part of the primary containment over-pressure relief system. If the suppression pool is damaged, it opens up the very real possibility that primary containment can suffer a catastrophic explosive failure due to over-pressurization. In postulated scenarios, the debris from that kind of primary containment failure is likely to breach secondary containment as well.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

All of them died within a year later too.

No, the men who went into the water died before they could make it back from closing the valves. Less than two hours--their scuba gear only had oxygen for 90 minutes, anyhow, and they had to find the valves in the dark. Even the third man who was a simple technician who accompanied them (the two men were both engineers) who out of blind panic abandoned them died within twelve hours from less exposure than they got. And they knew they were going to die and that was confirmed before they went in--they went in, knowing they would never get back out. They were given posthumous awards of Hero of the Soviet Union exactly like a soldier in war who throws himself onto a hand grenade to save his comrades.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yes, but the problem is that secondary containment is not very strong, and that the suppression pool is part of the primary containment over-pressure relief system. If the suppression pool is damaged, it opens up the very real possibility that primary containment can suffer a catastrophic explosive failure due to over-pressurization. In postulated scenarios, the debris from that kind of primary containment failure is likely to breach secondary containment as well.

Granted. The problems at No.2 have become trivial in the face of recent developments, however.

[The Yosemite Bear]

It's that ability to self sacrifice for the rest of society, and that ability to do horrible things out of selfishness is what defines humanity.

[CaptainChewbacca]

So according to CNN they're evacuating the plant. What the fuck?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So according to CNN they're evacuating the plant. What the fuck?

Reports on western media are simply 2 hours behind and irrelevant by the time that they're reported, consistently in this disaster. Go to the NHK english feed and other Japanese source english feeds. No other english language souces are reporting anything relevant at all.

[Todeswind]

FYI there are a ton of fake "help Japan" charities out there. Make sure the charity you donate to is a real one.

On a side note if you make a fraudulent charity to play off of people's sympathies for survivors of the recent Earthquake and Tsunami to make a buck you are officially evil and I hope you die in a fire. Preferably after losing your genitalia to cancer.

[Terralthra]

All of them died within a year later too.

No, the men who went into the water died before they could make it back from closing the valves. Less than two hours--their scuba gear only had oxygen for 90 minutes, anyhow, and they had to find the valves in the dark. Even the third man who was a simple technician who accompanied them (the two men were both engineers) who out of blind panic abandoned them died within twelve hours from less exposure than they got. And they knew they were going to die and that was confirmed before they went in--they went in, knowing they would never get back out. They were given posthumous awards of Hero of the Soviet Union exactly like a soldier in war who throws himself onto a hand grenade to save his comrades.

That is not what I read. According to what I read, all three returned to the surface, but were all ill within days. All sources currently available are swamped with wikipedia re-quotes, and that paragraph isn't sourced, so I'd like to see a source from you, if you have one.

[FSTargetDrone]

It's an easy thing to say what others should do when it's their lives on the line and not our own. We may proudly state we'd walk into a near-certain deathtrap, nobly upholding our high-minded morals without hesitation, bravely sacrificing ourselves for a greater good, but until we actually face the moment, words are meaningless. The idea that anyone here is offended because these workers evacuated (after being told to do so by their government, no less) after risking their health and quite probably their lives is grotesque.

They volunteered to go into that nightmare, and now we are bothered because they decided that they can endure no more after enduring so much? Why not, we ask? They are probably dead anyway, so why shouldn't they finish the job? What have they got to lose, right?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It's an easy thing to say what others should do when it's their lives on the line and not our own. We may proudly state we'd walk into a near-certain deathtrap, nobly upholding our high-minded morals without hesitation, bravely sacrificing ourselves for a greater good, but until we actually face the moment, words are meaningless. The idea that anyone here is offended because these workers evacuated (after being told to do so by their government, no less) after risking their health and quite probably their lives is grotesque.

They volunteered to go into that nightmare, and now we are bothered because they decided that they can endure no more after enduring so much? Why not, we ask? They are probably dead anyway, so why shouldn't they finish the job? What have they got to lose, right?

The idea that traumatic experience is special to people in these situations is utterly moronic. We're all human beings. Did I say I would nobly uphold high-minded morals, you shitwit? No. I said I'd flog myself into it, overcoming terror and fear by imagining a six year old girl dying in a hospital bed of leukemia because I didn't. You're damned right, high minded shits frequently run like hell. Fathers and mothers, on the other hand, and people with parental instincts in general, however, have plenty of biological impulses that can be manipulated to do the right thing. I have been through plenty in my life and have some idea of my limits. Anguish is a better motivator than idealism, and I'm withdrawing from this thread because my hatred for your shitty little nattering is indescribable. INNOCENT PEOPLE WILL DIE if they don't go in. That isn't idealism, that's a little girl's body destroying her from the inside out. I HATE YOU.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

All of them died within a year later too.

No, the men who went into the water died before they could make it back from closing the valves. Less than two hours--their scuba gear only had oxygen for 90 minutes, anyhow, and they had to find the valves in the dark. Even the third man who was a simple technician who accompanied them (the two men were both engineers) who out of blind panic abandoned them died within twelve hours from less exposure than they got. And they knew they were going to die and that was confirmed before they went in--they went in, knowing they would never get back out. They were given posthumous awards of Hero of the Soviet Union exactly like a soldier in war who throws himself onto a hand grenade to save his comrades.

That is not what I read. According to what I read, all three returned to the surface, but were all ill within days. All sources currently available are swamped with wikipedia re-quotes, and that paragraph isn't sourced, so I'd like to see a source from you, if you have one.

Ah, I believe it was in Medvedev's book, or else another Russian publication I read perhaps two years ago.

[FSTargetDrone]

The idea that traumatic experience is special to people in these situations is utterly moronic. We're all human beings. Did I say I would nobly uphold high-minded morals, you shitwit? No. I said I'd flog myself into it, overcoming terror and fear by imagining a six year old girl dying in a hospital bed of leukemia because I didn't. You're damned right, high minded shits frequently run like hell. Fathers and mothers, on the other hand, and people with parental instincts in general, however, have plenty of biological impulses that can be manipulated to do the right thing. I have been through plenty in my life and have some idea of my limits. Anguish is a better motivator than idealism, and I'm withdrawing from this thread because my hatred for your shitty little nattering is indescribable. INNOCENT PEOPLE WILL DIE if they don't go in. That isn't idealism, that's a little girl's body destroying her from the inside out. I HATE YOU.

They did go in. They stayed, they did their work, they did the best they could and then they decided they could stay no more. Maybe they stayed as long as they could before nausea or the other ill effects made it impossible to go on. We don't know. We weren't there. I can't get angry at people who have done that much. They are likely fatally afflicted. How much more can we ask?

[His Divine Shadow]

I hear the personell are back at the plant.