Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Azron_Stoma]

Imperials being humans means that Infiltration of the Federation could be in some ways even easier than Founder Infiltration. Albeit take longer to get people into high ranking positions as they would have to join Starfleet Academy and rise the ranks normally rather than assume the identity of an existing person.

Since Time is of the essence here the odds of the Imperials having any spies in any position to stop such a plan is pretty well non-existent. Given this scenario the Federation would be implementing the plan while the Empire is still trying to get their bearings and information about this new galaxy.

[Azron_Stoma]

The empire could stabilize it from their end if its possible. There are changelings in star wars which could infiltrate the federation if they needed to. In most cases we see that wormholes can be stopped with torpedoes in star trek. This does not mean that they all can. Star wars wormholes is another matter. Do you believe the federation could destroy the wormhole if it was one created by a force storm?

We've seen what happens when Wormholes are Stable on one side and Unstable on the other "TNG: The Price"

My plan A was phase cloak technology. My plan B is that if the goal here is to just survive, then retreat the federation to the mirror, mirror universe via transporters and bajorian wormhole. Perhaps a peace treaty could be signed with species 8472 and then they could just go to their realm too. The federation can give Species 8472 the go ahead to purge the milky way after the empire arrives with no resistance from the federation in exchange for sanctuary.

Plan A is to use Unstable, poorly tested technology that would break treaties and attempting to employ them on a wide scale while the Empire is performing a lightning campaign, which, I might add if they wanted to they could overrun every Federation world, simultaneously within a matter of minutes to hours. Attempting to Implement this plan before Imperial Attack would piss off the Romulans (I believe this thread addressed these points more than once already)

Plan B... just makes me facepalm, and the Species 8472 part makes me use both hands while banging my head against the wall.

[darthy]

We've seen what happens when Wormholes are Stable on one side and Unstable on the other "TNG: The Price"

you say that like it's a bad thing. The wormhole might jump around in the federation galaxy allowing the empire to deploy in multiple locations.

Plan A is to use Unstable, poorly tested technology that would break treaties and attempting to employ them on a wide scale while the Empire is performing a lightning campaign, which, I might add if they wanted to they could overrun every Federation world, simultaneously within a matter of minutes to hours. Attempting to Implement this plan before Imperial Attack would piss off the Romulans (I believe this thread addressed these points more than once already)

*face palm* @ pissing off the romulans.

episode "The Way of the Warrior"

BASHIR: Sir, I hate to bring this up, but our agreement with the Romulans expressly prohibits use of the cloaking device in the Alpha Quadrant.
SISKO: You're right. It does. But there are hundreds of Klingon ships between us and Dukat, and I intend to make that rendezvous in one piece.
BASHIR: Well, I won't tell the Romulans if you don't.

Section 31 may have the resources already to adapt the technology to starfleet ships in no time.

Plan B... just makes me facepalm, and the Species 8472 part makes me use both hands while banging my head against the wall.

I just facepalm'ed again too...you forgot to mention how it wouldn't work. How about cloaked self replicating mines in front of the wormhole like what the federation did to the dominion.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

This time, it is I who gets to say "prove it". The tables have turned. You'll have to start scrounging up sources that positively state the size or things we can infer it from. You're doing all the work now. Ultimately, you might win, but I can make you fight for every inch of it. All I have to do is keep questioning those sources and I can drag the argument out. If you're not a skilled debater, you might talk yourself into a corner (especially if I can trick you into a fallacy!), and then with a small amount of research at best, put down a final statement and claim victory. Give the other guy just enough rope to hang himself.


Such might not be the path to truth, but it's possible to force a checkmate out of your debate opponent. It's just a stronger debate tactic to force your opponent to do more work than you, but very few of the pro-Trek posters on this board take that approach.

This is something I realised when I last got involved with vs debates, when you find yourself spending hours putting together arguments, and the debate turns into a very long, drawn-out affair when you find yourself fighting on several fronts. Of course, one of you is bound to make a mistake, but if you can goad him into making a critical error you have the advantage- I had exactly that happen with some 'tard on ST.com months ago. I forget exactly what the vs details were, but he did say something like he didn't give a shit about official SW canon policy when I challenged him. When your opponent drops the ball like that, it gives you a chance to rip him a new one

[Azron_Stoma]

you say that like it's a bad thing. The wormhole might jump around in the federation galaxy allowing the empire to deploy in multiple locations.

More likely it would wind up sending them to another Galaxy altogether.

*snipped non-sequiter*

Secretly using a cloaking device on a ship that the Romulans know full well already has a cloak is one thing, trying to outfit EVERY ship in your fleet with a secret cloak without the Romulans finding out about it is completely different.

Section 31 may have the resources already to adapt the technology to starfleet ships in no time.

Again, may, prove they have it or concede.

I just facepalm'ed again too...you forgot to mention how it wouldn't work. How about cloaked self replicating mines in front of the wormhole like what the federation did to the dominion.

First off, the sheer logistical nightmare of transporting everyone to the mirror or other alternate universe. You might, if you are obscenely lucky, be able to begin sending the first batch of people while the Empire is landing troops. Planetary evacuations in Star Trek take YEARS, In fact just the Preparations for evacuations of major planets take years (STVI:Undiscovered Country) and that's with the co-operation of two major powers who are focusing on evacuation on ONE Major planet and would be using shuttles etc as well as transporters, rather than transporters exclusively.

Also it takes days for ships to reach the Bajoran Wormhole depending on where in the Federation they are, they would never get there.

Even if they got a cloaked, self replicating minefield up in time (and they flat out wouldn't have enough time to make them phase cloaked.) The Empire could just ram through it and wipe out all the mines within seconds, there IS a limit to how many times the Mines can be replenished after all.

I've noticed a common trend in these plans, they are completely lacking a sense of scale and the logistics involved. Not to mention the fact that The Federation saying to 8472 to go to town on the galaxy just because they won't be there when it happens is unbelievably selfish and honestly downright evil. But I've also noticed that allot of people who can't stand to have the Empire win against the Federation are ironically willing to perform atrocities worse than everything the Empire has ever done combined for the sake of victory.

Which to make matters worse their plans wouldn't even work.

[Azron_Stoma]

Nearest reason I can think of for you being against the whole "collapse the wormhole" angle is because that avoids the Federation fighting the Empire all that much. You'd much rather try to convince us that the Federation can somehow destroy the Imperials while they are at their strongest rather than admit that the only way to win is to trap them and starve them out, even if it means dooming the entire Galaxy to 8472.

Which again, wouldn't work anyhow, not only would the Federation be desperate getting as few people as they could to the Mirror Universe. If they send signals to 8472, which they won't cause they don't know how to contact them. Odds are 8472 will think it's some kind of trap, or otherwise not trust the Federation. They are Xenophobic in the extreme after all, and even if they attacked, The Empire would be able to defeat them as well, but odds are not before 8472 rampage across the quadrant blowing up the planets of various alien races as they go. Congratulations, the Federation would be forever considered cowardly swine by every race in the galaxy for their actions, undoing and betraying every single line about enlightenment and moral maturity. Meanwhile the Empire would be looked to for salvation against 8472, which they would gladly provide in exchange for loyalty.

Even assuming the Empire can't or doesn't follow them into the Mirror Universe, you still have to deal with all the crap in the Mirror Universe. Sure the Terran Resistance might get some new blood, but you're not going to be able to bring many ships to the table. Few if any are going to reach the Bajoran wormhole before being intercepted and destroyed by Imperial ships.

If the Empire do follow them then, once they find out what the feds are doing and how. Since You can go to the mirror universe via wormholes odds are they could find a way to make it work with their hyperdrives too.

Congratulations, You just handed the Empire not one, but two Milky ways with the theoretical potential for countless more.

[darthy]

More likely it would wind up sending them to another Galaxy altogether.

You were using the barzan wormhole to make a general conclusion about all unstable wormholes. If we take this to its logical conclusion, we see that the wormhole did shift positions irraticially but still within their own galaxy. Even if it doesn't Voyager was able to pull the wormhole back to them.

Secretly using a cloaking device on a ship that the Romulans know full well already has a cloak is one thing, trying to outfit EVERY ship in your fleet with a secret cloak without the Romulans finding out about it is completely different.

The point is that they'll do it if it means anniliation as the alternative.

Again, may, prove they have it or concede.

certain areas of star fleet like the chief of security herself wanted access the phase cloak to give the federation a tactical advantage over the Romulans and other races. It's not in section 31's character to let this technology go. I have proved they "may have it".

First off, the sheer logistical nightmare of transporting everyone to the mirror or other alternate universe. You might, if you are obscenely lucky, be able to begin sending the first batch of people while the Empire is landing troops. Planetary evacuations in Star Trek take YEARS, In fact just the Preparations for evacuations of major planets take years (STVI:Undiscovered Country) and that's with the co-operation of two major powers who are focusing on evacuation on ONE Major planet and would be using shuttles etc as well as transporters, rather than transporters exclusively.

hmm transporting everyone from earth to mirror, mirror earth or other home worlds to their respective counterpart homeworld. Considering everyone has a transporter that can be modified. It should only take one batch.

Also it takes days for ships to reach the Bajoran Wormhole depending on where in the Federation they are, they would never get there.

Those ships can be used to distract and/or resist the empire. The empire cannot use hyperdrive in federation space until its been accurately maped. Days is plenty.

Okay I'll get alittle crazy too and assume you're right and they only have SECONDS to be out of the galaxy before the empire arrives. A simple matter of a time warp X number of years into the past where X = the amount of time to evacuate, will allow the federation to warn itself with enough time to spare.

It doesn't have to be a time warp. The wormhole aliens could send sisko back in time or the orb of time can do it. There are so many time traveling techniques, take your pick.

I've noticed a common trend in these plans, they are completely lacking a sense of scale and the logistics involved. Not to mention the fact that The Federation saying to 8472 to go to town on the galaxy just because they won't be there when it happens is unbelievably selfish and honestly downright evil. But I've also noticed that allot of people who can't stand to have the Empire win against the Federation are ironically willing to perform atrocities worse than everything the Empire has ever done combined for the sake of victory.

If a direct confrontation is not possible then tricks, retreats, or foreign powers must be used.

Okay here's a new one: the federation can gather up all their most deadly diseases like the ones from Cold Station 12. As imperial ships come through the wormhole, the federation beams aboard the biogenic weapon killing everyone aboard so they can board the ship and take it over.

Nearest reason I can think of for you being against the whole "collapse the wormhole" angle is because that avoids the Federation fighting the Empire all that much. You'd much rather try to convince us that the Federation can somehow destroy the Imperials while they are at their strongest rather than admit that the only way to win is to trap them and starve them out, even if it means dooming the entire Galaxy to 8472.

naw, darth tedious was bragging too much about his idea to collapse the wormhole. Star trek doesn't need his charity.

Which again, wouldn't work anyhow, not only would the Federation be desperate getting as few people as they could to the Mirror Universe. If they send signals to 8472, which they won't cause they don't know how to contact them. Odds are 8472 will think it's some kind of trap, or otherwise not trust the Federation. They are Xenophobic in the extreme after all, and even if they attacked, The Empire would be able to defeat them as well, but odds are not before 8472 rampage across the quadrant blowing up the planets of various alien races as they go. Congratulations, the Federation would be forever considered cowardly swine by every race in the galaxy for their actions, undoing and betraying every single line about enlightenment and moral maturity. Meanwhile the Empire would be looked to for salvation against 8472, which they would gladly provide in exchange for loyalty.

Species 8472 only left the galaxy because of the federation. In exchange for technical knowledge about the nanoprobes and assistance in conquering the milky way, they just might do it.

Even assuming the Empire can't or doesn't follow them into the Mirror Universe, you still have to deal with all the crap in the Mirror Universe. Sure the Terran Resistance might get some new blood, but you're not going to be able to bring many ships to the table. Few if any are going to reach the Bajoran wormhole before being intercepted and destroyed by Imperial ships.

Time constraints are no longer an issue (time travel). Given they will have enough time to prepare now, let's just say the entire federation goes into the bajorian wormhole to the mirror, mirror universe. Then sisko tells the wormhole aliens to close the wormhole so the empire doesn't follow.

If the Empire do follow them then, once they find out what the feds are doing and how. Since You can go to the mirror universe via wormholes odds are they could find a way to make it work with their hyperdrives too.

Congratulations, You just handed the Empire not one, but two Milky ways with the theoretical potential for countless more.

The empire would need to figure out transporter technology and how to configure it to get to the mirror, mirror universe. By then, the federation in the mirror mirror universe could go back in time, travel back to the origional universe, warn themselves of the empire's counter plans after they evacuate to the mirror, mirror universe in their future.

[Azron_Stoma]

You were using the barzan wormhole to make a general conclusion about all unstable wormholes. If we take this to its logical conclusion, we see that the wormhole did shift positions irraticially but still within their own galaxy. Even if it doesn't Voyager was able to pull the wormhole back to them.

It's the only Wormhole we know of that is stable on one side and Unstable on the other, It also had both sides in the same galaxy, so it only makes sense that the unstable side would also stay in the galaxy. However since both sides are in different galaxies, then the movement logically would be proportionate.

The point is that they'll do it if it means anniliation as the alternative.

Except it isn't, as we have stated before, Collapsing the wormhole is a far more plausible alternative than anything you have proposed.

certain areas of star fleet like the chief of security herself wanted access the phase cloak to give the federation a tactical advantage over the Romulans and other races. It's not in section 31's character to let this technology go. I have proved they "may have it".

Sorry but you have to prove that they have it, not that they "might" or "may".

hmm transporting everyone from earth to mirror, mirror earth or other home worlds to their respective counterpart homeworld. Considering everyone has a transporter that can be modified. It should only take one batch.

The modifications would take an enormous amount of time, and prove that they can fit the entire population into transporters simultaneously, this reeks of a no limits fallacy.

Those ships can be used to distract and/or resist the empire. The empire cannot use hyperdrive in federation space until its been accurately maped. Days is plenty.

Again as evidenced by you saying so, meanwhile jumps based on long range sensors are perfectly possible and all they need is one captured vessel, or a map from the ferengi and their Hyperdrives are fully functional.

Okay I'll get alittle crazy too and assume you're right and they only have SECONDS to be out of the galaxy before the empire arrives. A simple matter of a time warp X number of years into the past where X = the amount of time to evacuate, will allow the federation to warn itself with enough time to spare.

It doesn't have to be a time warp. The wormhole aliens could send sisko back in time or the orb of time can do it. There are so many time traveling techniques, take your pick.

Time Travel eh? concession accepted.

If a direct confrontation is not possible then tricks, retreats, or foreign powers must be used.

Honestly between the Empire (conquering warlords) and 8472 (omnicidal maniacs) your best bet is to go with the former.

Okay here's a new one: the federation can gather up all their most deadly diseases like the ones from Cold Station 12. As imperial ships come through the wormhole, the federation beams aboard the biogenic weapon killing everyone aboard so they can board the ship and take it over.

*bzzzt* wrong, Transporters don't work through shields, ecm interference or dense materials. Also Stormtroopers have NBC protection. Try again.

naw, darth tedious was bragging too much about his idea to collapse the wormhole. Star trek doesn't need his charity.

Sorry but collapsing the wormhole was my first thought too, and considering the zany schemes you've proposed they apparently do.

Species 8472 only left the galaxy because of the federation. In exchange for technical knowledge about the nanoprobes and assistance in conquering the milky way, they just might do it.

Which again says all sorts of things about the Federation.

Time constraints are no longer an issue (time travel). Given they will have enough time to prepare now, let's just say the entire federation goes into the bajorian wormhole to the mirror, mirror universe. Then sisko tells the wormhole aliens to close the wormhole so the empire doesn't follow.

Again concession accepted.

The empire would need to figure out transporter technology and how to configure it to get to the mirror, mirror universe. By then, the federation in the mirror mirror universe could go back in time, travel back to the origional universe, warn themselves of the empire's counter plans after they evacuate to the mirror, mirror universe in their future.

Concession Accepted.

[Metahive]

Now that I think of it, hasn't anyone noticed how much this scenario resembles the plot of the B5 movie Thirdspace? An aggressive alien race with superior technology tries to force its way through a single portal into another universe to conquer it and the only way to stop them is the close off the entrance ASAP. The Thirdspace aliens had the advantage of a more resilient portal and potent mind control powers on their side though.
I wonder if Palpatine could try something similar.

[Azron_Stoma]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing when I read the OP.

Though the Thirdspace Aliens could only mind control Telepaths if memory served, Palpatine isn't so limited.

[Metahive]

No, not just telepaths, people like Vir and that crimelord got mind controlled too despite not being telepaths. It seems it was more that they were limited on how many people they could control at any one time since they only got about half the people on the station to riot and none on the defending ships.

But maybe they were just sure they could pummel them in a straight fight, their tiny fighters alone were already giving the fleet pause after all.

[Azron_Stoma]

Ah, I wasn't sure if Vir and the crimelord weren't just somewhat Telepathic, like Ivanova who was also somewhat affected.

[Batman]

IIRC several of the research scientists were also affected, and while in B5 you never know, I don't think there was any mention of them being telepathic.

[darthy]

Time Travel eh? concession accepted.

That's a strange way to word a concession on your part. You must have remembered when O'Brien saw the Romulans destroy the station then went back in time to warn them and thus saving them in episode "visionary". Or was it when the faction from the future warned archer of the xindi attack in episode "The Expanse" thus saving earth. Maybe it was when Braxton warned voyager of earth's solar system being destroyed in episode "future's end" thus saving earth's solar system. final episode of voyager, etc.. etc.. ahh well I'm sure one of the countless examples popped in your head. Good call. Anyway, I accept your concession. Time travel does make it pretty easy.

[Metahive]

Yeah, time travel is a great weapon[sarcasm]. The Borg Queen used it after FutureJaneway infected her to undo the damage...wait, no, she didn't. Kirk used time travel to undo the attack on Gorkon's ship...no, he didn't either. I got it, Sisko used time travel to prevent the fakeBashir from sabotaging the wormhole closing procedure, ah, no he didn't. There's also the fact that Trek can never decide if it's one changable timeline or multiple branching lines because both are presented over the course of the series and movies. Remember Annorax', the guy with the most potent time-altering device, attempts to create a perfect timeline which ended up having him and his ship drift endlessly through space infinitely trying and trying and failing to get it right? What does it tell us? Trek time travel is an unreliable crapshoot that only works accidentally but most of the time does more harm than good. Relying on it to win a war gets you nowhere really fast.

darthy, go fuck yourself. Your smug, self-satisfied bleating does not make up for your failure to distinguish between facts and assumptions, the latter of which you consistently treat as the former.

[darthy]

Yeah, time travel is a great weapon[sarcasm]. The Borg Queen used it after FutureJaneway infected her to undo the damage...wait, no, she didn't. Kirk used time travel to undo the attack on Gorkon's ship...no, he didn't either. I got it, Sisko used time travel to prevent the fakeBashir from sabotaging the wormhole closing procedure, ah, no he didn't. There's also the fact that Trek can never decide if it's one changable timeline or multiple branching lines because both are presented over the course of the series and movies. Remember Annorax', the guy with the most potent time-altering device, attempts to create a perfect timeline which ended up having him and his ship drift endlessly through space infinitely trying and trying and failing to get it right? What does it tell us? Trek time travel is an unreliable crapshoot that only works accidentally but most of the time does more harm than good. Relying on it to win a war gets you nowhere really fast.

Temporal prime directive doesn't prove that time is a bad weapon. Everyone 27nd century and up seem to think it's a great weapon.

darthy, go fuck yourself. Your smug, self-satisfied bleating does not make up for your failure to distinguish between facts and assumptions, the latter of which you consistently treat as the former.

great argument against time travel here. You really are a fuckwit huh

[Metahive]

Temporal prime directive doesn't prove that time is a bad weapon. Everyone 27nd century and up seem to think it's a great weapon.

You're wrong as usual, the only people who think it's a great weapon are reckless villains like Henry Starling, the Na'kuhl, the Krenim and the Shadowy Future Guy who are often shown to be in over their heads and subsequently fuck up everything even for themselves. That's why the heroes seldomly use time travel deliberately. Way to know your Trek, fanboy.

great argument against time travel here. You really are a fuckwit huh

Considering your non-rebuttal to what I said above, I guess yeah so, pigshitboy.

[Connor MacLeod]

If you want to argue Federation victory in a different scenario without the wormhole, the approach I'd take is to attack the Empire's size. (Indeed, that's my general approach to all the vs scenarios: knock the other guy down rather than build me up.)

That's the approach alot of people take in Vs debates. Frankly, it works, although I think it takes out any of the enjoyment of debating at all, since I personally enjoy discussing the technologies in a somewhat intelligent manner. Most VS, however, seems to involve coming up with comic-book like "insta-win" scenarios (EG warp strafing/phase cloaked doomships for ST, or a Death STar's mass worth of super-sized robotic star destroyers/robotic armies of DOOM.) which may or may not have much or any bearing on the "reality" of the universes in question. Which often means that in those cases, "knocking down the other side." is the only way to operate. (either that or yell at the other side enough and hope they go away.)

with the advent of the ICS, the "knock down the other side" approach seems to have become about the only way to carry off a vs debate (involving SW vs ST, SW vs 40K, 40K vs Trek, Starcraft vs Trek, SW vs Halo, Sw vs Culture, whatever the hell you want to make up.) Since 90% of SW vs ST discussions seem to devolve down to arguing over canon and interpretation and similar nitpickery, I've generally lost interest in it.

Of course, there is still the quesiton "why would you want to have ST fight SW" on a large scale... since you really can't do that without distorting the material on either side... seems pointless to me unless we're dealing with fanboys on either side (and that does happen.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I think you're right about the size. Nothing comes to mind that's bigger than those whales.

You know what, I don't think the whales would have fit on the transporter pad... they must have done a site to site transport! Or maybe the pad was bigger than I think. I've never thought about this before.

Anyway, that beam up was 18,000 cubic feet (510 cubic meters)* with dimensions of 60x30x10 feet. IIRC the heavy turbolasers are about the same size as an X-Wing, length wise. (though the perspective of the shot might be ruining my memory) X-Wings are about 16 meters long; that's around 50 feet.

So, for the size, I'd put it at a maybe, not convinced, but not out of the question either.

Its an interesting idea and I don't disagree in theory. However, my experience with vs debates tells me that unless you're VEEERRY careful with the idea, this can turn into some nonsensical comic-book esque no limits crap that can crop up in debates (look at Borg and the assimilation or adaption idea? I get tired of seeing how often that is treated as some godlike uber-ability. IT happens alot with the Flood too in Halo, or alot of "organic" entitites.)

You also noted that there are obvious problems or limtiations that would have to be addressed (like with Data not being mass produced.) but there are other unknowns I could think of. Let's grant for a second that, in theory, anything could be replicated, no matter how advanced. There would still be alot of unknown questions that could be problematic. How much material does it require, and how efficient can it be for more sophisitcated tech? How much enerrgy is required? Will it need special materials (you noted fuel, but it could be other "magical" materials too, like coolant, metals, etc.) and so on.

In short, Trek might replicate that turbolaser, but it would not neccesarily be efficient or cost effective to do so (EG not get into mass production.) And even if it IS cost effective, that doesn't guarantee they'd be able to match up to SW numbers via replication. And then there's the whole logistics angle. For that matter, what would be the limits of the size of replicators can be built ? THey might be able to (in theory) replicate even a superlaser, but would there be big enough replicators that could do that all at once?

Personally, I don't believe transporters are the same as replicators though, despite sharing some quantities. This, of course, makes the argument even harder - who knows how big replicators get. (The thing in "Rivals" DS9 was about the size of a beach ball; 2 foot diameter sphere or so.) We've heard of industrial replicators, but as far as I know, we've never actually seen one or heard about the kind of things they make, so it's a big unknown.

They don't neccesarily have to be identical technologies. There may be components of either subsystem that tie into either separate system. For example, maybe a transporter beam has to "replicate" certain parts of a person's body (certain elements, molecules, whatever) to make up for inefficiencies or losses during the transport process. Or maybe replicators use transporters to move mass from holding tanks to the replicator. Depending on how the systems are connected, malfunctions (software for example) may result in the sorts of accidents we smetimes see happening (transporters cloning people because some glitch in the system also triggered the replicator program, or something.)

[EnterpriseSovereign]

And there's also another issue- even if the Federation could produce the kinds of numbers of ships (with SW weapons) to challenge the Empire (doubtful given how crappy their production was in the Dominion War), they'd never be able to train enough crewmen and officers to be able to staff them.

[Big Phil]

And there's also another issue- even if the Federation could produce the kinds of numbers of ships (with SW weapons) to challenge the Empire (doubtful given how crappy their production was in the Dominion War), they'd never be able to train enough crewmen and officers to be able to staff them.

Dude - they'd totally just replicate them

[Eternal_Freedom]

Crew of a single ISD is 37,000 as per te original trilogy ICs, with an extra 9700 Stormtroopers. so 46,700 people.

As I recall, the number of personnel lost at Wolkf 359 was something like 11,000. From 39 destroyed starships, some of which had crews that evac'd.

So if Starfleet magically got an ISD, they'd need to pull the crews of something like 100-150 starships just to have the right number of crew, ignoring the lack of training.

And as I recall from a DS9 episode in the early part of season 6 (before retaking DS9 itself) Bashir describes the loss of 7th fleet, 112 starships I think.

So Starfleet would have to pull crews from an entire fleet to man a single ISD. That puts things in yet more perspective.

Incidentally, 46,700 is roughly the population of my home town. All on an ISD. Wow. Lot of people.

That's something else. I know I'm rambling, but run with it. In vs. debates, I have commonly seen the shitty tactic of "Beam security teams through shields and capture the ship."

Ignore the tech issues. I don't see how they think they can capture a ship that has a Stormtrooper complement thats over 9 times the crew of the E-D including families. Yeah, good odds that!

[Metahive]

Which makes me really wonder what all those people are actually doing on the ship. Shouldn't they have automatisation technology capable and reliable enough to reduce such humongous crew requirements? Ha, maybe when the hypermatter runs out they break out the oars and row the ship home, it's a big ship after all.

[Agent Sorchus]

Excess people isn't a flaw per-say, since it means extra people for damage control. One of the things the Navy has learned is that lots of automation is good for driving down the patrol costs, but when you are in shit those extra hands really help keep the ship working.

[Batman]

The crew size isn't exactly all that bad. 47,000 seems humonguous, until you look at the size differences. A modern day CVN has a crew of about 6,000 and is easily more than an order of magnitude smaller, has essentially zero offensive weapons other than its air wing, and doesn't have the Wars inherent distrust of unsupervised automation/droids.