Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Darth Tedious]

Crew of a single ISD is 37,000 as per te original trilogy ICs, with an extra 9700 Stormtroopers. so 46,700 people.

That number traces all the way back to the very first edition of the West End Games Sourcebook.

[Batman]

I don't know though, everything about the Empire just screams "WASTE" to me. Look at the gigantic walkers they have. The enormous Death Star. Ridiculously big capships.
All of them are much bigger than they really need to be to make a statement.

WH40K has gigantic walkers. Perry Rhodan has ridiculously big starships/space stations/general artificial constructs (get back to me when you've run into an artificial country a lightyear across). Until and unless you provide evidence to the contrary, the DS1 did need to be the size it was, so did the DS2, so do all the capital ships in Wars. You are by no means required to like that, but ridiculously big either means they were a hell of a lot bigger than they needed to in your personal opinion, which is your prerogative but also essentially useless, or that they were a lot bigger than they needed to be for doing the things we saw/were told about them doing in universe, for which I'd rather like some evidence.
Not that I see where Wars uses ridiculously big capships to begin with.

[darthy]

Considering your non-rebuttal to what I said above, I guess yeah so, pigshitboy.

The rebuttal to the very post you said was the very post you replied to. Proof by counter example. The fact that there are so many examples of using time travel to save themselves says something about time travel... that they can use it to save themselves. You pointed out some random cases in history where time travel could have saved them but they didn't bother to use it in order to preserve continuity or whatever.

Yeah, time travel is a great weapon[sarcasm]. The Borg Queen used it after FutureJaneway infected her to undo the damage...wait, no, she didn't.

Well first off the borg queen was kinda... well dead shortly after Janeway infected her. And she did try to alter time to undo the damage.

QUEEN: (pulls off a disintegrating arm) Sphere six three four. They can still hear my thoughts. I may have assimilated your pathogen but I also assimilated your armour technology. (leg falls off) Captain Janeway is about to die. If she has no future, you will never exist and nothing that you've done here today will happen. (Queen dies, central complex explodes)

This is a non-example on two fronts dumbass.

Annorax', the guy with the most potent time-altering device, attempts to create a perfect timeline which ended up having him and his ship drift endlessly through space infinitely trying and trying and failing to get it right? What does it tell us? Trek time travel is an unreliable crapshoot that only works accidentally but most of the time does more harm than good.

It tells me that dispite the objective, he had time on his side. He didn't give up until the timeline was restored. Once his ship was erased the timeline was restored causing his mission to take no time at all.

You're wrong as usual, the only people who think it's a great weapon are reckless villains like Henry Starling, the Na'kuhl, the Krenim and the Shadowy Future Guy who are often shown to be in over their heads and subsequently fuck up everything even for themselves. That's why the heroes seldomly use time travel deliberately. Way to know your Trek, fanboy.

the borg, the xindi, darvin, etc... all unanimously agree it's a great weapon. And the temporal agents think it's such a sucky weapon that they have to use this sucky time travel weapon as the only way to combat them. Star trek has so much time travel in it that I could tear apart your statement all day long. You're an idiot, get your head on straight before you talk and stop wanking off to naked pics of yoda.

[Azron_Stoma]

the borg, the xindi, darvin, etc... all unanimously agree it's a great weapon.

And like Henry Starling, the Na'kuhl, the Krenim and Future Guy, they were all defeated by those who never use it as a weapon. Seriously when you were giving that whole "Plan A, Plan B" spiel, one of the things running through my mind was "The only way this guy could come up with a plan even worse than the ones he's already proposed would be if he brought in Time Travel on top of it."

Sure enough that's exactly what you did, the moment you brought in Time Travel you conceded defeat. Not because you admitted that they can't win otherwise, but because Time Travel is useless.

Hence I Accept your Concession.

Star trek has so much time travel in it that I could tear apart your statement all day long.

Which at best all it does is create a new, alternate timeline that has no affect on the one the travelers came from, ala Star Trek XI.

[Metahive]

The Borg used time travel once and that was in a last act of desperation. If it were a regular tactic of them they could have taken the modified nanoprobes they got at the end of Scorpion and travelled back to give them to their ogirinal liquid space invasion force, but they didn't. The Xindi don't use time-travel, it's their secret allies, the sphere builders who do but they too don't use it to undo their defeats. Darwin, great choice, they guy who almost blew his past self up in a fit of petty vengeance.

Yep, time travel is a great weapon...not.

[darthy]

And like Henry Starling, the Na'kuhl, the Krenim and Future Guy, they were all defeated by those who never use it as a weapon.

Not sure what to make of that statement.

Weapon: an instrument of attack or defense in combat or hunting, e.g. a gun, missile, or sword;

Henry Starling, the Na'kuhl, Future Guy, and Krenim were stopped with assistance from time travel themselves. When a police officier uses a weapon to stop someone else that's using the same kind of weapon, that doesn't inheritly make the weapon a bad one. Quite the opposite in fact. Maybe when you said weapon you meant to say "for destructive purposes". Plus Archer had help from Silik to stop the Na'kuhl. Silik is someone who does uses time travel for destructive purposes so your statement isn't even a correct one.

I'm not even sure what that's supposed to prove except time travel can only be successfully used when its intentions are just? Okay well that's what's happening here. The Federation survive thanks to time travel. Sounds pretty positive to me.

- Picard uses time travel successfully as a weapon against Dr. Soran in star trek generations.
- O'Brien used time travel to prevent the station from being destroyed in episode "visionary".
- Jake sisko used time travel to save his father in episode "The Visitor".
- Janeway uses time travel to save a planet in episode "Time and Again"
- Kim and Chakotay use time travel to save voyager in episode "Timeless"
- Janeway uses time travel to get voyager home and cripple the borg in episode "Endgame"

I don't understand, I thought time travel didn't work man? You said it was useless, looks pretty useful to me. What's up with that? You need to debunk these cases to prove your statement correct. Help me to see the light that time travel cannot be useful like all those episodes suggest. I just don't see it. Time travel can backfire sure but to say time travel can never work just isn't true.

Which at best all it does is create a new, alternate timeline that has no affect on the one the travelers came from, ala Star Trek XI.

You mean "at best for you". It totally depends on the method of time travel as to whether it alters the current timeline or creates a parallel universe. Like in episode "Pasts tense", captain sisko changes the past and he sees himself in the history file on Gabriel Bell. In episode "Time's Orphan" when molly sends her younger self back in time, preventing her from being stranded on the planet in the future, we see her future self disappear.

Even if I pretend you're right and the federation gets destroyed in one time line but saved in another, I'd still consider that saving the federation just like I would consider the empire in the alternate timeline still the empire.

The Borg used time travel once and that was in a last act of desperation. If it were a regular tactic of them they could have taken the modified nanoprobes they got at the end of Scorpion and travelled back to give them to their ogirinal liquid space invasion force, but they didn't. The Xindi don't use time-travel, it's their secret allies, the sphere builders who do but they too don't use it to undo their defeats. Darwin, great choice, they guy who almost blew his past self up in a fit of petty vengeance.

Voyager never gave the modified nanoprobes to the Borg at the end of scoripion. Voyager never disclosed to the borg how to modify their nanoprobes. Sure they were going to but the Borg broke the deal by not giving them safe passage. The Borg cannot send back in time knowledge of something they don't have. If the borg told their past selves that they needed to modify their nanoprobes to stop species 8472, the response would be something like "no shit". Failure as usual. You have much to learn young grasshopper.

[Darth Tedious]

From the OP:

You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.

Here's the problem right here.

[Big Phil]

Since darthy seems to take the approach that canon doesn't matter, here's my argument.

Palpatine clones himself quintillions of times and overwhelms the ST galaxy with force using emperor's. Then he bypasses cloning and just replicates storm troopers using Trek transporters. For every stormtrooper the Borg or the Federation kill, 100 are replicated. Then he starts replicating TIE Fighters, star destroyers, and even Death Stars. Pretty soon the Star Trek galaxy is overwhelmed by hundreds of thousands of Death Stars, blowing up anything that moves.

Game over.


Wow, if I was darthy, I'd totally be in my bathroom right now stroking myself for such genius.

[Azron_Stoma]

- Picard uses time travel successfully as a weapon against Dr. Soran in star trek generations.
- O'Brien used time travel to prevent the station from being destroyed in episode "visionary".
- Jake sisko used time travel to save his father in episode "The Visitor".
- Janeway uses time travel to save a planet in episode "Time and Again"
- Kim and Chakotay use time travel to save voyager in episode "Timeless"
- Janeway uses time travel to get voyager home and cripple the borg in episode "Endgame"

You mean "at best for you". It totally depends on the method of time travel as to whether it alters the current timeline or creates a parallel universe. Like in episode "Pasts tense", captain sisko changes the past and he sees himself in the history file on Gabriel Bell. In episode "Time's Orphan" when molly sends her younger self back in time, preventing her from being stranded on the planet in the future, we see her future self disappear.

Even if I pretend you're right and the federation gets destroyed in one time line but saved in another, I'd still consider that saving the federation just like I would consider the empire in the alternate timeline still the empire.

Sorry, but it doesn't depend on method at all, every example you've given fit perfectly with the "Many Worlds" model.

There is no way to alter the current timeline, time travel only creates parallel universes in trek.

Picard created a parallel universe using the Nexus, where he would stop that soran from entering said Nexus and saving an alternate version of his crew.

O'brien saved an alternate station, while he himself was killed and an alternate him took his place.

Jake saved an alternate Sisko.

Janeway saved an alternate version of the un-named civilization in "Time and again"

Kim and Chakotay saved an alternate Voyager.

Janeway saves an alternate voyager, and cripples an alternate borg.

Sisko created a parallel universe almost identical to his own, the main difference being his picture in the file on Gabriel bell.

Time's orphan, due to the fact that past and future molly cannot exist in the same timeline, one stays in that one while the other is shunted to an alternate, that's why she "Disappears".

This isn't Back to the Future, where changes in the timeline can erase something from existence.

Besides, how is warning the federation of the Empire's invasion, or that the Empire will follow them through into the mirror universe supposed to help anyway? Just because they can see it coming doesn't mean they can stop it.

[darthy]

From the OP:

You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.

Here's the problem right here.

So in other words, no one's impressed. I'm hurt.

Situation: You're in charge of the Federation Council in a 100% (this is a RAR) realistic simulation of an Empire v.s Federation war, with both galaxies fully simulated- this loosens your moral constraints. The wormhole is from a point in the "middle of nowhere" in Federation space to a similiar one in Imperial space- the programmer postulated a total victory at the battle of the second Death Star, but the foe is Palpatine's Empire.

I didn't consider that. Since it's all just a simulation then I could just find a way to cause an infinite loop or an error like divid by zero error and prevent defeat that way. I never met a game I couldn't crash. Maybe just put a lot of ships by the wormhole so that the collision detection in the program doesn't let ships on the other side through. Or I'd use a game hack and go ahead and crush the empire that way. Kirk used this method to win in the Kobayashi Maru which was programmed to be a no win situation.

[darthy]

Sorry, but it doesn't depend on method at all, every example you've given fit perfectly with the "Many Worlds" model.

There is no way to alter the current timeline, time travel only creates parallel universes in trek.

(snipped examples of many worlds view imposed on star trek episodes)

In episode "storm front pt 2", we see visuals of the timeline resetting itself after archer stops Vosk. If timeline's don't change, why do we see visual evidence and dialogue which state the timeline is changing?

In enterprise episode "carpenter steet"

ARCHER: Maybe you could fill in a few of the blanks for me. The Xindi weapon would be a good place to start.
DANIELS: We don't know any more than you do.
ARCHER: I thought you and your colleagues were supposed to be keeping an eye on the time line. You're from the thirtieth century. Hasn't all this happened already?
DANIELS: History doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi.
ARCHER: How could that be?
DANIELS: The events that are taking place are the result of temporal incursions. They are not supposed to be happening.
ARCHER: But they are happening.
DANIELS: Yes, they are, but the outcome hasn't reached us yet. It takes a while for changes to ripple through the time line.

how can changes ripple through a timeline when timelines can't be changed?

In episode "future's end"

BRAXTON [on viewscreen]: In my century we can scan time, much as you use sensors to scan space. The Temporal Integrity Commission detected your vessel over twentieth century Earth. I was sent to correct that anomaly. Prepare to follow me back into the rift. I'm returning you to your own time, to your previous co-ordinates in the Delta Quadrant.
JANEWAY: Captain, we've been trying to get home to Earth for the last two years. Can you return us to our century but keep us here, in the Alpha Quadrant?
BRAXTON [on viewscreen]: I'm sorry. Temporal Prime Directive. I'm afraid you're on your own. Braxton out.

How can they have an ability so scan for changes in time if it's impossible to change time?

The essay by Michael Wong regarding many worlds model found here http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... TimeTravel has already been debunked here http://pastehtml.com/view/1dpfjxp.html

It's not a proven fact that time works that way across the board in star trek. So it cannot be used as a fact, just a consideration. If time travel creates another universe and all of these universes are considered part of star trek then it shouldn't matter which universe of star trek wins. Whether you think the federation saves a federation from an alternate universe instead of their own shouldn't matter if one universe is regarded equally to another. Using the many worlds interpretation, from our point of view the federation gets advanced notice from a future federation in an alternate universe.

Besides, how is warning the federation of the Empire's invasion, or that the Empire will follow them through into the mirror universe supposed to help anyway? Just because they can see it coming doesn't mean they can stop it.

I told you already. If the empire tries something, then the federation sends that information to the past informing themselves of what the Empire's plans are. This would give the federation enough time to evacuate somewhere else, like another universe, another galaxy, another time, or all of the above.

[Batman]

Sorry, but it doesn't depend on method at all, every example you've given fit perfectly with the "Many Worlds" model.
In episode "storm front pt 2", we see visuals of the timeline resetting itself after archer stops Vosk. If timeline's don't change, why do we see visual evidence and dialogue which state the timeline is changing?

I am SO dying to see you presenting visuals for a timeline actually changing.

In enterprise episode "carpenter steet"
SNIPPY dialogue

how can changes ripple through a timeline when timelines can't be changed?

I hate to tell you, but all dialogue is evidence of is...the people involved saying what they did. That doesn't make what they said true. 100% of available evidence says Trek time travel works on some subset of the Multiple Worlds/Parallel Universes/Trousers of Time
variation of Time Travel.

In episode "future's end"
SNIPPY DIALOGUE
How can they have an ability so scan for changes in time if it's impossible to change time?

Who says they do? Again, all you have is dialogue. Also, flat out wrong. Just because you can't change your own timeline doesn't mean you can't detect attempts to time travel.

It's not a proven fact that time works that way across the board in star trek.

It very much does most of the time I'm afraid.

So it cannot be used as a fact, just a consideration. If time travel creates another universe and all of these universes are considered part of star trek

And this is where you lose, because, you see, they aren't. Star Trek is what we see on screen. No what kinda mighta coulda been.

then it shouldn't matter which universe of star trek wins. Whether you think the federation saves a federation from an alternate universe instead of their own shouldn't matter if one universe is regarded equally to another.

Which they aren't. One is the official Star Trek universe, while the others are...not. Valen. I've run into enough people who ignore the official canon policies, but I think you're the first one who is apparently too bloody stupid to understand them.

Using the many worlds interpretation, from our point of view the federation gets advanced notice from a future federation in an alternate universe.

Which is of what use, exactly, to the Federation in the original universe?

Besides, how is warning the federation of the Empire's invasion, or that the Empire will follow them through into the mirror universe supposed to help anyway? Just because they can see it coming doesn't mean they can stop it.

I told you already. If the empire tries something, then the federation sends that information to the past informing themselves of what the Empire's plans are. This would give the federation enough time to evacuate somewhere else, like another universe, another galaxy, another time, or all of the above.

So essentially they run. And going to another galaxy using Warp drive may take a while. And I'd like you to elaborate on the evacuation bit if you could be bothered. Because the Feds are routinely strained trying to evacuate one lousy planet.

[Batman]

I hate to tell you, but all dialogue is evidence of is...the people involved saying what they did. That doesn't make what they said true. 100% of available evidence says Trek time travel works on some subset of the Multiple Worlds/Parallel Universes/Trousers of Time
variation of Time Travel.

Actually, dialog is evidence too, so saying 100% is unlikely to be not true.

Technically, you just supported my point, but as I assume you to have meant 100% is unlikely to be true, I'll happily agree. However, as
the vast majority of evidence other than dialogue pretty much says it's the Trousers of Time/Parallel Universes etc ...

And I'd like you to elaborate on the evacuation bit if you could be bothered. Because the Feds are routinely strained trying to evacuate one lousy planet.

Planets are pretty fucking big!

Yet darthy expects them to be able to evacuate not only one, but all of them to another universe/galaxy before the Imperials arrive.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I skimmed through this, and as far as I can see there's no author's name or contact info. No accountability, no credibility; it can't be Darkstars as he has his own site.

I'm guessing his argument re: evac centres on using transporters to send inhabitants from any given planet to the mirror universe counterpart of said planet, however you're still going to need ships on the MU side to move people on, else you're going to get planets with twice as many people as they will have infrastructure for. All that really accomplishes is moving the problem of logistics into the mirror universe

[EnterpriseSovereign]

One of the things I take issue with, looking at that is that if the "Temporal Prime Directive" is used as an excuse as to why time travel is not used in various instances where it might be beneficial because of contaminating the timeline (since anything they do to change history is by definition is doing exactly that), then it's no more likely to be used in a vs scenario for that very same reason.

And if a curbstomp like Wolf 359 doesn't prompt the Federation to use time travel, and getting hammered by the Dominion doesn't, how much of a clusterfuck does an Imperial invasion have to stir up before the Federation gets desperate enough to try something like that?

I find it hilarious that the author has to immediately reach for future Federation tech in the interests of "making it fair". There's simply not enough evidence that the Federation has moved far enough forwards in that time to compensate for the order-of-magnitudes difference between their power generation capability and the Empires, let alone all the other advantages it has. And since SW is supposed to have happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, if any side should get a tech boost, it's the SW side

[Darth Tedious]

To try time travel, all that's needed is for someone to order Jim Kirk to avoid the planet Earth at all costs... which is another count that the many worlds interpretation is pretty well bunk. It invalidates that whole film.

It doesn't necessarily invalidate STIV. Creating an alternate universe in which Earth was saved works if you consider that we are following the characters and not the universe. This is a matter of perspective, though.

However, if being in a parallel universe invaildates a film, STXI would be invalid.

[darthy]

I am SO dying to see you presenting visuals for a timeline actually changing.

Simple enough...



only for the amusement of watching you try to explain it away

I hate to tell you, but all dialogue is evidence of is...the people involved saying what they did. That doesn't make what they said true. 100% of available evidence says Trek time travel works on some subset of the Multiple Worlds/Parallel Universes/Trousers of Time
variation of Time Travel.

In a court of law what they say would be considered evidence. That's why they have eye witness testimonies and junk.

Who says they do? Again, all you have is dialogue. Also, flat out wrong. Just because you can't change your own timeline doesn't mean you can't detect attempts to time travel.

how did Braxton know what time and when to return voyager if they were from another universe? It may be possible to explain these things away but you'll no doubt cringe while typing it out and look stupid in the attempt.

Which they aren't. One is the official Star Trek universe, while the others are...not. Valen. I've run into enough people who ignore the official canon policies, but I think you're the first one who is apparently too bloody stupid to understand them.

You're an idiot if you think you can have only one official star trek universe and a many-worlds model view of time travel at the same time. When the slightest alteration of time is made, they are in a new universe according to you. Often times the episodes continue along from this new universe. No?

So essentially they run. And going to another galaxy using Warp drive may take a while. And I'd like you to elaborate on the evacuation bit if you could be bothered. Because the Feds are routinely strained trying to evacuate one lousy planet.

Enough advanced notice of the empire's coming via time travel. Evacuation to the mirror, mirror via bajorian wormhole and transporter. Have sisko get the profits to close the wormhole. They could make use of the traveler or seven of nine making quantum singularities if they want to go to another galaxy.

[darthy]

To try time travel, all that's needed is for someone to order Jim Kirk to avoid the planet Earth at all costs... which is another count that the many worlds interpretation is pretty well bunk. It invalidates that whole film.

It doesn't necessarily invalidate STIV. Creating an alternate universe in which Earth was saved works if you consider that we are following the characters and not the universe. This is a matter of perspective, though.

However, if being in a parallel universe invaildates a film, STXI would be invalid.

If what people say in dialogue isn't considered canon then we don't know if STXI occurs in a parallel universe or not based off of what spock said.

[Darth Tedious]

To try time travel, all that's needed is for someone to order Jim Kirk to avoid the planet Earth at all costs... which is another count that the many worlds interpretation is pretty well bunk. It invalidates that whole film.

It doesn't necessarily invalidate STIV. Creating an alternate universe in which Earth was saved works if you consider that we are following the characters and not the universe. This is a matter of perspective, though.

However, if being in a parallel universe invaildates a film, STXI would be invalid.

If what people say in dialogue isn't considered canon then we don't know if STXI occurs in a parallel universe or not based off of what spock said.

What people say in dialogue is considered canon- it just isn't considered valid evidence if there is overriding visual evidence. There is an overwhelming amount of visual evidence in STXI to support it being an alternate reality.

[Azron_Stoma]

Looking through it, he brings up several examples that do through doubt into the many universes thing - Sela and "Time's Arrow" being the two big ones I've seen so far. And "The City on the Edge of Forever", of course!

However in "Time's Arrow" both those cases there is no actual change to the timeline as they know it, except for the momentary timeline splice in City on the Edge of Forever. Sela seems to be more of an alternate timeline factor though, since she was created by one (alternate yar).

I skimmed through this, and as far as I can see there's no author's name or contact info. No accountability, no credibility; it can't be Darkstars as he has his own site.

That was made by marsh8472, we already tore it a new one here.

Except the race isn't being "erased" just shunted into an Alternate Timeline and the two timelines are momentarily spliced.

[darthy]

However in "Time's Arrow" both those cases there is no actual change to the timeline as they know it, except for the momentary timeline splice in City on the Edge of Forever.

"time's arrow" represents a predestination paradox. There's no reason to think a many worlds model applys here if there are no contradictions.
So we can say that the way a timeline behaves depensd on the method of time travel applied.

Except the race isn't being "erased" just shunted into an Alternate Timeline and the two timelines are momentarily spliced.

Yes new timeline, same universe. Your concession is accepted on this matter.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

That was made by marsh8472, we already tore it a new one here.

There wasn't even a debate there. It's just a tl;dr dogpile, but no fight back. You can't determine truth like that.

How much do you want to bet it's the same guy under a new name? There are some striking similarities

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Darthy was Marsh8472 under a new name, his referencing that so-called debunking makes me wonder

[darthy]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Darthy was Marsh8472 under a new name, his referencing that so-called debunking makes me wonder

never heard of him.

[Azron_Stoma]

I doubt it, Marsh's style is different. Darthy didn't bring in time travel until he got to his plan C. Where as Time Travel is the entire basis behind Marsh's "strategy".

So we can say that the way a timeline behaves depensd on the method of time travel applied.

It's not the method, it's the result. No paradoxes were created, when a paradox occurs, that's when alternate timeliness come into play.

Yes new timeline, same universe. Your concession is accepted on this matter.

No concession given. New Timeline = New Universe. There's no such thing as a new timeline, same universe.

It's no different than future molly vanishing as she is sent to an alternate timeline. You might as well have posted a picture of her in mid vanish where she would be see-through and assume that the timeline is being changed as a result, it's not. She is just no longer compatible with the events of the current universe, so she goes to one where she is.