Imperial Fleet VS Enterprise-D's from the Quantum Fissure

[darthy]

You still don't get it, dumbass.
IF "intersection" means (as suggested in the episode) "technobabble at the same point in space and time", then you WILL have a percentage chance for that.
Also, guess WHY you can't actually multiply/divide infinity? Because of what i already said - that every outcome will still be infinity.

saying it again, doesn't make it true. Any assumptions that the keyhole intersects finite or infinite quantum realities are unfounded. To use your words: don't mess with infinity. In your case, you can stop acting like you understand how this phenomena works now.

Again:
Do not mess with infinity

Do not mess with trying to understand infinity.

[Serafina]

Oooh, how cuuute - little darthy is trying to copy my argument.
But darthy, you have to copy the argument, not the jokes. Don't worry, you'll learn, your mommy will show you.
Here, that's what you made right:

Any assumptions that the keyhole intersects finite or infinite quantum realities are unfounded.

That's what we call an "argument". It contains a "point" - do you already know what that is? The rest of your post doesn't - both parts are copied. darthy, you should not copy other peoples post, they won't like that. Don't do things to others they don't like.
And look - the argument you took? That's not for you, darthy, because your own position depends on understanding that "quantum fissure"-thingy. You musn't admit that you don't - bad darthy. Awww, don't be sad, i'm sure you can try again - but try something new, oki? Perhaps you should adress other people points instead of ignoring them - wouldn't that be fun? Would it? Would it! It would, yay!


Or without all that baby-speak:

Any assumptions that the keyhole intersects finite or infinite quantum realities are unfounded.

Correct. Givem that we do not understand that "quantum fissure" at all, your argument falls flat and is mere speculation.
However, i DID present several possiblilities how it could work. None of them is favorable to you, which is why you are not addressing them and merely dismiss them with the claim that "you do not understand my made-up technobabble like i do!!2".
Sorry, but that's not a proper argument. Adress my points.

[darthy]

Oooh, how cuuute - little darthy is trying to copy my argument.
But darthy, you have to copy the argument, not the jokes. Don't worry, you'll learn, your mommy will show you.
Here, that's what you made right:

Any assumptions that the keyhole intersects finite or infinite quantum realities are unfounded.

That's what we call an "argument". It contains a "point" - do you already know what that is? The rest of your post doesn't - both parts are copied. darthy, you should not copy other peoples post, they won't like that. Don't do things to others they don't like.
And look - the argument you took? That's not for you, darthy, because your own position depends on understanding that "quantum fissure"-thingy. You musn't admit that you don't - bad darthy. Awww, don't be sad, i'm sure you can try again - but try something new, oki? Perhaps you should adress other people points instead of ignoring them - wouldn't that be fun? Would it? Would it! It would, yay!


Or without all that baby-speak:

Any assumptions that the keyhole intersects finite or infinite quantum realities are unfounded.

Correct. Givem that we do not understand that "quantum fissure" at all, your argument falls flat and is mere speculation.
However, i DID present several possiblilities how it could work. None of them is favorable to you, which is why you are not addressing them and merely dismiss them with the claim that "you do not understand my made-up technobabble like i do!!2".
Sorry, but that's not a proper argument. Adress my points.

I don't pretend (much) to understand the inner workings of the quantum fissure. I'm focusing more on what we do know than what we don't. Just going by dialogue we don't know how many quantum realities exist within the quantum fissure because data says "many" instead of infinite. Wesley says he scanned 10 million quantum realities in the fissure so we know there's at least that many. We don't know if there's a limit to how many realities can exist within one merged reality either. The enterprises might stop appearing after reaching some incredibly high finite number of enterprise's. A sustained attack on the imperial fleet from millions, billions or trillions of galaxy class starships just wouldn't survive.

I'm not sure a blackhole would be created if there would be constant warp core breaches that are causing all the matter to explode outward. A blackhole requires a high amount of matter to be imploded inward like from the collapse of a star to create a large amount of gravity.

[Serafina]

I don't pretend (much) to understand the inner workings of the quantum fissure. I'm focusing more on what we do know than what we don't.

Ignoring the lack of truth in that sentence, what exactly DO we know? Oh, right - next to nothing. You are just making ship up again, mindlessly wanking stuff you know nothing about.

Wesley says he scanned 10 million quantum realities in the fissure so we know there's at least that many. We don't know if there's a limit to how many realities can exist within one merged reality either. The enterprises might stop appearing after reaching some incredibly high finite number of enterprise's. A sustained attack on the imperial fleet from millions, billions or trillions of galaxy class starships just wouldn't survive.

Wow, an actual number - i would be impressed, if you didn't instantly ignore it and talk about "billions or trillions" of ships.
We have a number - 10 million. Everything beyond that is pure speculation. And we don't even know if every single "quantum reality" contains it's own Enterprise, much less if said Enterprise would be willing to cooperate with them.

By the way, if we do this by the book, an Imperial fleet could indeed take on 10 million Galaxy-class ships.
But even if we don't - simply fly away, conquer the Federation or some planets on the other side of the galaxy for resources, and watch while that huge amount of ships runs out of resources - the Federation can not possibly supply that many ships with fuel.

I'm not sure a blackhole would be created if there would be constant warp core breaches that are causing all the matter to explode outward. A blackhole requires a high amount of matter to be imploded inward like from the collapse of a star to create a large amount of gravity.

You know, it you get infinite ships, then you WILL get a black hole, because the mass will simply pile on until it is concentrated enough at the center.
But even if we don't get that - a chain reaction of warpcore-explosions is MUCH better for the Empire, because it won't destroy the universe - but the ships are still blown to pieces as tiny as your brain.

[Darth Tedious]

I don't pretend (much) to understand the inner workings of the quantum fissure. I'm focusing more on what we do know than what we don't.

Except when you don't-

The enterprises might stop appearing after reaching some incredibly high finite number of enterprise's.

Might? That's an unknown. Why do you keep focusing on the possibility, instead of what is known?

[darthy]

Ignoring the lack of truth in that sentence, what exactly DO we know? Oh, right - next to nothing. You are just making ship up again, mindlessly wanking stuff you know nothing about.

we know there are lots of Enterprise-D's and the fleet is supposed to be engaging them and i'm asking who wins?

Wow, an actual number - i would be impressed, if you didn't instantly ignore it and talk about "billions or trillions" of ships.
We have a number - 10 million. Everything beyond that is pure speculation. And we don't even know if every single "quantum reality" contains it's own Enterprise, much less if said Enterprise would be willing to cooperate with them.

within 37 seconds of airtime the Enterprise received 285,000 hails. It's safe to say that not every single enterprise that was there was hailing them so there were probably a lot more than 285,000 enterprise's. Data says that the sector would be completely filled with enterprises in 3 days at their current exponential rate which is at least 1.16x10^44 enterprise's.

The last Enterprise that I see appear was at 3min 59sec from when Enterprise's started appearing which was when the shuttle with worf was leaving the enterprise. During the whole battle scene with the other enterprise that was firing on the shuttle, I didn't see a single enterprise appear. I tried zooming in and viewing the video frame by frame... nothing. Here's what I found when they showed an outside view of the enterprise's or the enterprise's on the view screen:

33:54.2 enterprise's start appearing
37:49 - 37:53 at least 5 enterprise's appear (when the shuttle with worf was leaving)
38:09 - 38:10 0 enterprise's appear that I see
38:27.3 - 38:29 0 enterprise's appear that I see
38:32.2 - 38:35.1 0 enterprise's appear that I see
38:40 - 38:43.1 0 enterprise's appear that I see
39:15 - quantum fissure sealed

For the final 9 seconds of when they show all the enterprise's I don't see any new appearances. Assuming the enterprise's are randomly placed, the odds of not seeing anything for that long within the viewing area are pretty small especially if their appearances are supposed to be increasing exponentially. This could mean that either the enterprise's cannot appear after a given area has reached a critical limit or there is a finite number of enterprise's and the last one appeared about 4 minutes after the first one did.

By the way, if we do this by the book, an Imperial fleet could indeed take on 10 million Galaxy-class ships.
But even if we don't - simply fly away, conquer the Federation or some planets on the other side of the galaxy for resources, and watch while that huge amount of ships runs out of resources - the Federation can not possibly supply that many ships with fuel.

I'd like to see the numbers. Like how many Enterprise-D's would it take to destroy the Death Star II for a start.

You know, it you get infinite ships, then you WILL get a black hole, because the mass will simply pile on until it is concentrated enough at the center.
But even if we don't get that - a chain reaction of warpcore-explosions is MUCH better for the Empire, because it won't destroy the universe - but the ships are still blown to pieces as tiny as your brain.

You'll never get infinite ships in the galaxy since infinity cannot be reached. But let's play with the numbers a little

According to http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class the mass of the Enterprise would be 4,500,000 metric tons

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun the mass of our sun is 1.9891×10^30 kg = 1.9891 x 10^27 metric tons

That would mean that you would need 4.42x10^20 enterprise's to equal the mass of our sun. That's if you crunch all the enterprise's together still not enough gravity to make a blackhole. When in reality the enterprise's are being pretty evenly spread out.

[Batman]

Wow, an actual number - i would be impressed, if you didn't instantly ignore it and talk about "billions or trillions" of ships.
We have a number - 10 million. Everything beyond that is pure speculation. And we don't even know if every single "quantum reality" contains it's own Enterprise, much less if said Enterprise would be willing to cooperate with them.

within 37 seconds of airtime the Enterprise received 285,000 hails. It's safe to say that not every single enterprise that was there was hailing them so there were probably a lot more than 285,000 enterprise's.

You obviously have evidence for that. Because if you don't, those 285,000 E-Ds are all you got.

Data says that the sector would be completely filled with enterprises in 3 days at their current exponential rate which is at least 1.16x10^44 enterprise's.

Oh really. DO show me the math on that, because as far as I can tell there's exactly zero information on the size of a sector in Trek, nor that sectors actually have a fixed size to begin with.

By the way, if we do this by the book, an Imperial fleet could indeed take on 10 million Galaxy-class ships.
But even if we don't - simply fly away, conquer the Federation or some planets on the other side of the galaxy for resources, and watch while that huge amount of ships runs out of resources - the Federation can not possibly supply that many ships with fuel.

I'd like to see the numbers. Like how many Enterprise-D's would it take to destroy the Death Star II for a start.[/quote9
Infinite, or near enough, given you'd need several hundred thousand of them to take out a single Star Destroyer. A measly Acclamator would need half a million of the hopelessly exaggerated TNG TM 64MT photorps a second to take down her shields.

You'll never get infinite ships in the galaxy since infinity cannot be reached. But let's play with the numbers a little
According to http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class the mass of the Enterprise would be 4,500,000 metric tons
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun the mass of our sun is 1.9891×10^30 kg = 1.9891 x 10^27 metric tons
That would mean that you would need 4.42x10^20 enterprise's to equal the mass of our sun. That's if you crunch all the enterprise's together still not enough gravity to make a blackhole. When in reality the enterprise's are being pretty evenly spread out.

Make up your mind. Either E-D's keep popping in forever or there is a limited number of them.

[darthy]

You obviously have evidence for that. Because if you don't, those 285,000 E-Ds are all you got.

Obviously. The enterprise that worf was on did not hail anyone when the ships started appearing. This means that there are quantum states that exists where the enterprise does not hail when they first get there. Even if some of them do open a hailing frequency, the odds that it just happens to be the enterprise that worf is on is astronomical. Since a percentage of quantum states exist that don't hail then 285,000 hails is a percentage of the ships that are there.

If we assume that every enterprise is getting an average of 285,000 hails and each enterprise doing the hailing is only attempting to hail one enterprise then that would mean there are at least 285,000 x 285,000 = 81,225,000,000 Enterprise's there.

Oh really. DO show me the math on that, because as far as I can tell there's exactly zero information on the size of a sector in Trek, nor that sectors actually have a fixed size to begin with.

I already did, if you would have just moved your ass back a page or two and looked.

Data says at that rate the sector will be completely filled with enterprise's in 3 days.

Here it is again:

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_%28Star_Trek%29 a sector is a cube shape 20 light years across giving a volume of 8,000 cubic light years or about 6.76 x 10^51 cubic meters. According to the star trek tech manual the enterprise's dimensions are 642.51 meters x 463.73 meters x Height: 195.26 meters so we'll pretend each enterprise-D takes up the volume of a rectangular prism with a volume of 58,177,944 cubic meters. So at least 1.16x10^44 enterprise's in 3 days if we assume the rate of appearances remains constant and they continue to appear for 3 days. Somehow I don't think the imperial fleet can overpower them.

Make up your mind. Either E-D's keep popping in forever or there is a limited number of them.

We don't know. But if you're leaving it up to me, I'll say that there's a limited number of them. The limited number is high enough to destroy the imperial fleet but low enough to prevent any kind of destruction to the galaxy. Then the federation wins.

[Batman]

You obviously have evidence for that. Because if you don't, those 285,000 E-Ds are all you got.

Obviously. The enterprise that worf was on did not hail anyone when the ships started appearing. This means that there are quantum states that exists where the enterprise does not hail when they first get there.

Um-the evidence for that is...?

Even if some of them do open a hailing frequency, the odds that it just happens to be the enterprise that worf is on is astronomical. Since a percentage of quantum states exist that don't hail then 285,000 hails is a percentage of the ships that are there.

As evidenced by nothing whatsoever. Unless, of course, the visuals show more than 285,000 E-Ds present. By all means feel free to show that being the case.

If we assume that every enterprise is getting an average of 285,000 hails and each enterprise doing the hailing is only attempting to hail one enterprise then that would mean there are at least 285,000 x 285,000 = 81,225,000,000 Enterprise's there.

How about we don't assume and instead use the evidence that is actually there. Which is 285,000 E-Ds, at least one of them on the verge of breaking apart.

Oh really. DO show me the math on that, because as far as I can tell there's exactly zero information on the size of a sector in Trek, nor that sectors actually have a fixed size to begin with.

I already did, if you would have just moved your ass back a page or two and looked.

You most certainly did not.

Data says at that rate the sector will be completely filled with enterprise's in 3 days.
Here it is again:
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_%28Star_Trek%29 a sector is a cube shape 20 light years across giving a volume of 8,000 cubic light years or about 6.76 x 10^51 cubic meters. According to the star trek tech manual the enterprise's dimensions are 642.51 meters x 463.73 meters x Height: 195.26 meters so we'll pretend each enterprise-D takes up the volume of a rectangular prism with a volume of 58,177,944 cubic meters. So at least 1.16x10^44 enterprise's in 3 days if we assume the rate of appearances remains constant and they continue to appear for 3 days. Somehow I don't think the imperial fleet can overpower them.

It's a pity none of this information is actually canon. And just for the record, the TNG TM doesn't say a word about the Big E's dimensions (which, incidentally, is one of the things that makes it worthless as a Tech Manual).

Make up your mind. Either E-D's keep popping in forever or there is a limited number of them.

We don't know. But if you're leaving it up to me, I'll say that there's a limited number of them. The limited number is high enough to destroy the imperial fleet but low enough to prevent any kind of destruction to the galaxy. Then the federation wins.

Actually the Federation loses either way, given the Empire can win by simply leaving.

[darthy]

Um-the evidence for that is...?

Evidence by Riker not giving the order to hail one of the enterprise's of course.

You're the one claiming there are precisely 285,000 enterprise's only. Where's your evidence to support that claim? It requires every single enterprise to be hailing that particular enterprise. Data said that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities. Are you really trying to say that there isn't a possibility that an enterprise wouldn't try to hail that particular enterprise? Where's the proof?

How about we don't assume and instead use the evidence that is actually there. Which is 285,000 E-Ds, at least one of them on the verge of breaking apart.

I did use the evidence that was there. The enterprise worf was on was getting 285,000 hails. It's reasonable to say that the other enterprise's won't see that enterprise as special so on average every enterprise would be getting 285,000 hails so 81,225,000,000 hails total.

You most certainly did not.

Sure, I quoted them to you. The only thing I didn't do was multiply the numbers out for you and show the conversions. You know how to do that much on your own... right?

It's a pity none of this information is actually canon. And just for the record, the TNG TM doesn't say a word about the Big E's dimensions (which, incidentally, is one of the things that makes it worthless as a Tech Manual).

DS9 Tech Manual does though (page 151):

Actually the Federation loses either way, given the Empire can win by simply leaving.

Empire thinks they are the bigger man by walking away from a fight huh? Actually I have a word for that: retreat. Federation wins then.

[Serafina]

Empire thinks they are the bigger man by walking away from a fight huh? Actually I have a word for that: retreat. Federation wins then.

Actually, the fight itself would be a draw - no one lost anything.
On a strategic scale, however, the Empire DOES win if they retreat (assuming that there are not infinte Enterprises which will destroy the universe). Because the Federation now has to deal withat least hundreds of thousands of starships, not all of them friendly, who require fuel and supplies. Food should not be a problem, everything else will be. Cue at least massive chaos, and most likely a massive drain of supplies.

Winning fights is no important. Reaching your goals is. That specific region of space contains nothing the Empire wants, so they have nothing to gain by winning the fight. They DO gain something by simply leaving all those Enterprises be.

So yes, assuming your dumbass szenario where billions of Enterprises appear and that they don't want to waste their time to blow them up one after the other (which they can do), the Empire actually wins an strategic advantage by simply retreating.

Heck, even if they don't cause a massive supply chaos, all those Enterprises are still limited by warp speeds. The Empire does not have to engage them at any time and can simply hyperjump around and conquer plants as much as they want to.

Of course you would have known that if you had any clues about strategy at all, and not "hurr hurr, those cowards run away therefore i am superior".

[darthy]

On a strategic scale, however, the Empire DOES win if they retreat (assuming that there are not infinte Enterprises which will destroy the universe). Because the Federation now has to deal withat least hundreds of thousands of starships, not all of them friendly, who require fuel and supplies. Food should not be a problem, everything else will be. Cue at least massive chaos, and most likely a massive drain of supplies.

the federation may figure out a way to seal the quantum fissure returning them all back to where they came from though.

Heck, even if they don't cause a massive supply chaos, all those Enterprises are still limited by warp speeds. The Empire does not have to engage them at any time and can simply hyperjump around and conquer plants as much as they want to.

which raises another point that I don't think anyone addressed when I mentioned it. How can they jump to hyperspace with all those mass shadows of the enterprise's around? It's stated in several star wars reference books that if something collides with a mass shadow in hyperspace that it'll instantly destroyed so nav computers are programmed to avoid them when charting a course before entering hyperspace. But the enterprises cannot be avoided or predicted by a nav computer if they're constantly appearing everywhere and moving.

Also what if the quantum fissure does put enterprises inside other ships. If an enterprise appeared inside a death star's main reactor it's likely to destroy the whole thing.

Then there's the issue of if they decide to blast their way or ram their way through light years of enterprise's to escape, how do we know that the other enterprise's won't swarm all over them in defense of their fellow duplicates offering humanitarian aid, defending the federation, or whatever?

[Serafina]

the federation may figure out a way to seal the quantum fissure returning them all back to where they came from though.

Great. Then the Federation did not only have to invest resources into reverting that thing, they are also back to having their pityfully small fleet and will get curb-stomped by the Empire.

which raises another point that I don't think anyone addressed when I mentioned it. How can they jump to hyperspace with all those mass shadows of the enterprise's around? It's stated in several star wars reference books that if something collides with a mass shadow in hyperspace that it'll instantly destroyed so nav computers are programmed to avoid them when charting a course before entering hyperspace. But the enterprises cannot be avoided or predicted by a nav computer if they're constantly appearing everywhere and moving.

Also what if the quantum fissure does put enterprises inside other ships. If an enterprise appeared inside a death star's main reactor it's likely to destroy the whole thing.

That assumes that they fly right into the middle of the swarm of Enterprises.
You know, your szenarios really are nothing more than "stuff happens because i say so, regardless of any logical reason for it to happen".

Then there's the issue of if they decide to blast their way or ram their way through light years of enterprise's to escape, how do we know that the other enterprise's won't swarm all over them in defense of their fellow duplicates offering humanitarian aid, defending the federation, or whatever?

The shields of Star Wars ships are orders of magnitudes stronger than those of Star Trek ships. Only a small amount of Enterprises will be capabel of engaging any given imperial ship at any given time, since they lack the capability to concentrate the firepower of large fleets on a single target (as seen in numerous battles, such as "Tears of the Prophet"). Meanwhile, single shots for SW-weapons could easily destroy an Galaxy-class ship. I don't think their morale is up to it, especially since they are not even part of the same government/military/fleet, and rather a random conglomerate from thousands of universes.

And again, this assumes that the imperial fleet flies into the middle of their formation. Heck, if they can do that, then it's hardly unreasonable to assume that they can fly out of it as well.

[Darth Tedious]

On a strategic scale, however, the Empire DOES win if they retreat (assuming that there are not infinte Enterprises which will destroy the universe). Because the Federation now has to deal withat least hundreds of thousands of starships, not all of them friendly, who require fuel and supplies. Food should not be a problem, everything else will be. Cue at least massive chaos, and most likely a massive drain of supplies.

the federation may figure out a way to seal the quantum fissure returning them all back to where they came from though.

With Enterprise-D destroyed, the Worf that was shifting between quantum realities was killed and with him all hope it seems of sealing the quantum fissure.

Apparently, there is very little hope of them doing so. You wrote this when you thought that the quantum fissure staying open would be to the Federation's advantage.

[darthy]

Great. Then the Federation did not only have to invest resources into reverting that thing, they are also back to having their pityfully small fleet and will get curb-stomped by the Empire.

point is, if the empire retreats back to where they came from those no garantee that the fleet of enterprise's will destroy themselves in the mean time.

That assumes that they fly right into the middle of the swarm of Enterprises.
You know, your szenarios really are nothing more than "stuff happens because i say so, regardless of any logical reason for it to happen".

and that assumes that they aren't in the middle of it already. Data said that the sector will be completely filled with enterprises within 3 days. It's reasonable to assume that these enterprises are appearing all over the sector if that is the case.

The shields of Star Wars ships are orders of magnitudes stronger than those of Star Trek ships. Only a small amount of Enterprises will be capabel of engaging any given imperial ship at any given time, since they lack the capability to concentrate the firepower of large fleets on a single target (as seen in numerous battles, such as "Tears of the Prophet"). Meanwhile, single shots for SW-weapons could easily destroy an Galaxy-class ship. I don't think their morale is up to it, especially since they are not even part of the same government/military/fleet, and rather a random conglomerate from thousands of universes.

Actually they are capable of it. In the movie star trek first contact, captain picard ordered everyone to concentrate their fire at a specific point on the borg cube. Or how about sisko when he focused all his ships into the hole on the cardassian lines in episode "Sacrifice of Angels".

And again, this assumes that the imperial fleet flies into the middle of their formation. Heck, if they can do that, then it's hardly unreasonable to assume that they can fly out of it as well.

You misunderstood the scenario then. There was only one enterprise to start out. The imperial fleet attacked that enterprise while it was scanning the quantum fissure. This caused the quantum fissure to destabalize and then the enterprise's started appearing. The imperial fleet would be near the enterprise when this all started.

I think someone mentioned trying a force storm to destroy a bunch of the enterprise's and using the force storm to create a wormhole allowing the fleet to escape. This all assumes the emperor is onboard the death star or on one of the other ships though. I'd have to go refresh my memory to see how reliable this idea is. As I remember the emperor sucked at making force storms but he was barely able to pull it off on occasion.

[Serafina]

point is, if the empire retreats back to where they came from those no garantee that the fleet of enterprise's will destroy themselves in the mean time.

Who cares? If they don't, they'll drain the Federations resources and they are not a threat to the imperial operations due to their low FTL-speed.

Actually they are capable of it. In the movie star trek first contact, captain picard ordered everyone to concentrate their fire at a specific point on the borg cube. Or how about sisko when he focused all his ships into the hole on the cardassian lines in episode "Sacrifice of Angels".

Yes, and they SUCKED at it. Ships were firing individually, one after the other. Plus, it was only one cube, instead of a whole fleet of ships. We never saw them concentrate their fire on single targets in large fleet engaments, which we saw in DS9.
You ignored my example. Go look it up.

You misunderstood the scenario then. There was only one enterprise to start out. The imperial fleet attacked that enterprise while it was scanning the quantum fissure. This caused the quantum fissure to destabalize and then the enterprise's started appearing. The imperial fleet would be near the enterprise when this all started.

Why the hell would a WHOLE FLEET go after a single Galaxy-class ship? A small patrol craft could blow it up.
That's like sending a whole carrier combat group after a single rowboat full of pirates.
Really, your scenarios are just "it happens because i say so, and screw logic, because i don't get to screw anyone else".

[darthy]

Who cares? If they don't, they'll drain the Federations resources and they are not a threat to the imperial operations due to their low FTL-speed.

Why would it be a drain? It's supposed to be the most powerful ship in the federation. They can sustain themselves if they had to except for maybe the ones like that were in battle with the borg.

Yes, and they SUCKED at it. Ships were firing individually, one after the other. Plus, it was only one cube, instead of a whole fleet of ships. We never saw them concentrate their fire on single targets in large fleet engaments, which we saw in DS9.
You ignored my example. Go look it up.

They sucked at it yet won the battles doing it hmm ok. I looked up your example. That's another battle they won. Are you talking about why they didn't send more ships after the jem'hadar ones that rammed the birds of prey? They don't lack the ability to concentrate their firepower since I gave you counter examples.

Why the hell would a WHOLE FLEET go after a single Galaxy-class ship? A small patrol craft could blow it up.
That's like sending a whole carrier combat group after a single rowboat full of pirates.
Really, your scenarios are just "it happens because i say so, and screw logic, because i don't get to screw anyone else".

they didn't mean to, the fleet was riding along on their way to invade the federation and ran into the enterprise and stupidly destroyed it at the wrong time.

You didn't mention what they would do if enterprise's started appearing within their ship? Like if an enterprise appeared within the deathstar's main reactor?

[Darth Tedious]

they didn't mean to, the fleet was riding along on their way to invade the federation and ran into the enterprise and stupidly destroyed it at the wrong time.

You really are trying to prove Serafina's point, aren't you?

Really, your scenarios are just "it happens because i say so, and screw logic, because i don't get to screw anyone else".

If the Imperial fleet were invading the Federation, they'd be attacking planets, not fucking around in open space. The quantum fissure occurred inside Federation space, remember?

This all assumes the emperor is onboard the death star or on one of the other ships though.

Assumes?

The empire sends their entire imperial fleet to Federation space. This includes their death star, all of their star destroyers, TIE fighters as seen during the movie Star Wars Return of the Jedi.

The fleet we saw in RotJ included the Emperor on the Death Star II.

Although, you did write the OP quite badly. THe fleet in RotJ was not even remotely close to the entire Imperial fleet.

[Metahive]

Also, the emperor was on the DSII for a specific reason, to better lure the Alliance into his trap. There's no reason for him to be onboard in this scenario. And yeah, RoTJ had most of the imperial fleet scattered, scouring the universe to find the Rebels (or so Palpatine wanted it to look like). It speaks for the relative military weakness of the Alliance that what little was present at Endor was already constituted an overwhelming power.

[Serafina]

Why would it be a drain? It's supposed to be the most powerful ship in the federation. They can sustain themselves if they had to except for maybe the ones like that were in battle with the borg.

"An aircraft carrier is supposed to be the most powerfull ship in the United States Navy. Therefore it can sustain itself without any supplies".

So they don't need fuel? Spare parts to replace broken ones? Food or other supplies?
Ah, yet again another no-limits fallacy, and proof that you don't understand logistics.

They sucked at it yet won the battles doing it hmm ok. I looked up your example. That's another battle they won. Are you talking about why they didn't send more ships after the jem'hadar ones that rammed the birds of prey? They don't lack the ability to concentrate their firepower since I gave you counter examples.

They won against opponents that were also incapable of concentrating their fire.
You did not give any counter examples. You did not show how they can, during an engagement against an enemy fleet, concentrate all the fire of their fleet against a single enemy ship.

Or perhaps you don't know what "concentrate their firepower" means?
In modern naval engagements (battleship-era and afterwards), one fleet can target any enemy ship they want to an concentrate all their firepower on that single target. A fleet of 10 battleships + support ships fighting against an equally strong ship can concentrate on one enemy battleship, then on the next on and so on. This has the advantage of rapidly reducing the enemy firepower, as well as reducing the effectiveness of defenses.
Star Wars ships can concentrate their firepower - we see this done in Episode VI, where the whole rebel fleet focusses their firepower on the Executor in order to overwhelm it's shields.
During the Battle of Chin'toka, the Federation fleet was incapable of concentrating their fire on the moon that powered the defense stations. For this reason, they were incapable of penetrating it's shields, and had to do so by tricking the defense stations into firing onto said moon. If they had been capable of concentrating their fire, that technobabble-solution would not have been necessary.
In this scenario, the Enterprises will not be capable of concentrating on one imperial ship, overwhelming it's shields and moving on to the next one. Instead, only a small amount of ships will be able to fire at each imperial ship, which will most likely not be enough to scratch their shields. Numbers don't matter, since you can't bring your superior numbers to bear.

they didn't mean to, the fleet was riding along on their way to invade the federation and ran into the enterprise and stupidly destroyed it at the wrong time.

As i said - stupid made-up bullshit. You are assuming that they just happen to fly by, notable not in hyperspace - if they were, they would most likely not even detect the Enterprise and even if they did, why should you stop a whole fleet just so that you can take out a single ship? Again, it would be like re-routing a whole carrier battle group in order to destroy a single pirate rowboat.

You didn't mention what they would do if enterprise's started appearing within their ship? Like if an enterprise appeared within the deathstar's main reactor?

WOULD YOU STOP IT ALREADY?
Seriously, ALL you are doing is "what if X happens?". You NEVER ask the question "would X happen"? The Death Star will not be there. It has NO REASON to be there. Even if it happens to run into the Enterprise, it would just blow it up and jump into hyperspace afterwards in order to exterminate some Federation planet.

Yes, if for some reason a ship happens to materialize directly inside the Death Stars reactor core, the Death Star will blow up. If a piece of metal just happens to materialize inside your heart, you'll also drop dead. If every Federation citizen spontaneously mutates into a newt, they'll also loose. THERE IS NO REASON TO ASSUME ANY OF THIS WILL HAPPEN. Before you ask the wquestion "what if x happens", ask yourself "will x happen" like any other intelligent person.


But hey, let's play your game.
darthy, what happens if every Federation citizen spontaneously turns into a newt? What will the Federation do?

[Darth Tedious]

But hey, let's play your game.
darthy, what happens if every Federation citizen spontaneously turns into a newt? What will the Federation do?

They'll get better! It happened in Monty Python and the Holy Grail VOY:'Threshold'...

[Omeganian]

Actually the Federation loses either way, given the Empire can win by simply leaving.

Empire thinks they are the bigger man by walking away from a fight huh? Actually I have a word for that: retreat. Federation wins then.

No, a tactical regrouping until the World Devastators can chew through a couple billion gas giants (and maybe some stars as well).

[Agent Sorchus]

What Serafina failed to explain is why they can't concentrate their firepower, namely that the ships of the federation lack long enough weapons effective range to have more than a half dozen ships (maybe more like 20) in range of a given target at a time (and they still don't concentrate firepower when they have numbers like this). The closest we see to concentrated firepower is against either DS9 or the borg cube in First Contact. Good news is that they are both in the same size category as a Stardestroyer, bad news a Stardestroyer is faster then both of them. Hell DS9 is never attacked by more than 50 ships, which makes it the known upper limit for concentrating firepower. (The borg cube in first Contact might have been attacked by more ships, but we never see that many at any one time so they can't all be firing at once) The number fifty is near enough to the 47 at Wolf 359 to be a probable limit to federation abilities. So 50 Galaxy class ships capable of firing bursts of ~10 torpedoes at once, using a median value of 10megatons for each torpedo, congratulations you have a peak firepower somewhere near a fortieth of a single shot from an Acclamator. (It could go a little higher of course, but i am not counting point defense, dodging or jamming, to even out the lack of phasers and their unknown offensive values.)

Truly a victory for trek.

(And yes I know this could be considered dogpiling, but I was more responding to Serafina and her lack of explaining why the federation can't concentrate firepower rather than saying they can't and giving examples of them not while not addressing the times that they seemingly do.)

[Formless]

I think someone mentioned trying a force storm to destroy a bunch of the enterprise's and using the force storm to create a wormhole allowing the fleet to escape. This all assumes the emperor is onboard the death star or on one of the other ships though. I'd have to go refresh my memory to see how reliable this idea is. As I remember the emperor sucked at making force storms but he was barely able to pull it off on occasion.

No, it doesn't you lying little shriveled scrotum that talks. Didn't you read the wookiepedia article I linked to? Or even my own goddamn post? Its on the last fucking page, acting like you've forgotten who or what was said isn't fooling anyone. The Emperor could and did create Force Storms (in the plural, as in ten in one go, thus proving that your statement "the emperor sucked at making force storms but he was barely able to pull it off on occasion" is another bald faced lie) from lightyears away in the comfort of his throne room, possibly from as much as half a galaxy away considering that hyperdrive makes entire parsecs seem trivial in Star Wars. The Force regularly gives the middle finger to spacetime: Yoda in RotS was able to sense the deaths of the Jedi during Order 66 even though they were spread out across the galaxy fighting the CIS, Obi wan in ANH was able to sense the destruction of Alderaan from the Millennium Falcon in hyperspace, Luke was able to sense Han being tortured on Bespin from the swamps of Dagobah, etc.. And that's just examples from the movies.

Also, if you weren't a transparent liar you would mention that 1) I said that the Force Storm ability requires fine manipulation of timespace, meaning that the Emperor should be able to close the Fissure without even summoning a Storm 2) that the Empire has Subspace technology anyway and the whole reason I brought up Force Storms was to show that you don't have a monopoly on stupid technobabble shit * 3) using the force storm to retreat was Omeganian's idea not mine (it the last fucking post on the page! What the hell made you think you could get away with dishonesty this blatant?) 4) you ignored my argument up until now, so if you are going to bring it up, please address my points or concede them. Simply stating "I'm not sure how reliable this idea is" is not an argument, its not even a fallacy. Its a Wall of Ignorance tactic, and I do not appreciate being brushed off like that, asswipe.

* coincidentally, its also evidence that you are in fact a trektard rather than an EU minimalist like your name deceitfully implies because EU minimalists prefer to wank out the characters of Star Was and especially the Force whereas Trektards hate conceding anything to Star Wars at all.

[darthy]

I think someone mentioned trying a force storm to destroy a bunch of the enterprise's and using the force storm to create a wormhole allowing the fleet to escape. This all assumes the emperor is onboard the death star or on one of the other ships though. I'd have to go refresh my memory to see how reliable this idea is. As I remember the emperor sucked at making force storms but he was barely able to pull it off on occasion.

No, it doesn't you lying little shriveled scrotum that talks. Didn't you read the wookiepedia article I linked to? Or even my own goddamn post? Its on the last fucking page, acting like you've forgotten who or what was said isn't fooling anyone. The Emperor could and did create Force Storms (in the plural, as in ten in one go, thus proving that your statement "the emperor sucked at making force storms but he was barely able to pull it off on occasion" is another bald faced lie) from lightyears away in the comfort of his throne room, possibly from as much as half a galaxy away considering that hyperdrive makes entire parsecs seem trivial in Star Wars. The Force regularly gives the middle finger to spacetime: Yoda in RotS was able to sense the deaths of the Jedi during Order 66 even though they were spread out across the galaxy fighting the CIS, Obi wan in ANH was able to sense the destruction of Alderaan from the Millennium Falcon in hyperspace, Luke was able to sense Han being tortured on Bespin from the swamps of Dagobah, etc.. And that's just examples from the movies.

Also, if you weren't a transparent liar you would mention that 1) I said that the Force Storm ability requires fine manipulation of timespace, meaning that the Emperor should be able to close the Fissure without even summoning a Storm 2) that the Empire has Subspace technology anyway and the whole reason I brought up Force Storms was to show that you don't have a monopoly on stupid technobabble shit * 3) using the force storm to retreat was Omeganian's idea not mine (it the last fucking post on the page! What the hell made you think you could get away with dishonesty this blatant?) 4) you ignored my argument up until now, so if you are going to bring it up, please address my points or concede them. Simply stating "I'm not sure how reliable this idea is" is not an argument, its not even a fallacy. Its a Wall of Ignorance tactic, and I do not appreciate being brushed off like that, asswipe.

* coincidentally, its also evidence that you are in fact a trektard rather than an EU minimalist like your name deceitfully implies because EU minimalists prefer to wank out the characters of Star Was and especially the Force whereas Trektards hate conceding anything to Star Wars at all.

Be thankful I even bothered to mention the force storms idiot. You act like your posts are worth remembering. As it appears, Palpatine didn't start making force storms until after he was reborn, 6 years after his firth death. During the Battle of Pinnacle Base, Palpatine lost control of one of his own force storms and destroyed himself. Great plan.

"An aircraft carrier is supposed to be the most powerfull ship in the United States Navy. Therefore it can sustain itself without any supplies".

So they don't need fuel? Spare parts to replace broken ones? Food or other supplies?
Ah, yet again another no-limits fallacy, and proof that you don't understand logistics.

They could dismantle all of the enterprise's my dear. This would give the federation an abundance of supplies and experienced crewmen.