Earthquake off Japan

[Broomstick]

If I recall correctly, all the reactors in the earthquake zone scrammed - which may mean all the nuclear power plants in Japan went off line at the same time. However, once the earthquake is over, if there's no damage and the situation is safe you can start them back up again, starting with a controlled withdrawal of the control rods. I don't know for sure, just extrapolating from my limited knowledge.

I've heard that there are coal plants that went off line, too, but I haven't been able to get any details on them because the media is so hysterical about the nuclear stuff.

[phongn]

If I recall correctly, all the reactors in the earthquake zone scrammed - which may mean all the nuclear power plants in Japan went off line at the same time.

11/55 reactors shut down.

[Zixinus]

If I recall correctly, all the reactors in the earthquake zone scrammed - which may mean all the nuclear power plants in Japan went off line at the same time.

11/55 reactors shut down.

Source please?

[Broomstick]

Yes, please - I'd like to be able to make a truthful statement with confidence.

I'd also be interested in how long it takes to go from SCRAM shut down back to normal energy production, too. If anyone here knows that.

[phongn]

NEI says 11/55 (PDF); you can see a map of Japan's reactors in this JAIF PDF. No primary sources at the moment.

[Zixinus]

According to a IAEA report some radioactive particles did escape: they have found iodine and calcium radioisotopes in food south of Fukushima.

The Agency continues to receive data confirming high levels of radioactivity in food, notably spinach, in samples taken from 37 locations in the vicinity of five cities south of the Fukishima site. This indicates that in four Prefectures some food products are above permissible levels. High levels of both Iodine-131 and Caesium-137 have been measured by the Japanese authorities in spinach and some other fresh vegetables, together with Iodine-131 in milk. However, as reported yesterday, distribution of food from the areas affected has been restricted. The Japanese authorities are monitoring the situation in the rest of the country. Further monitoring data will be provided by Japan to the IAEA/FAO on an ongoing basis.

[mr friendly guy]

Browsing some of the finance websites, I saw a link claiming that Japan has acquired massive concrete pumps from China. Its from the company website.

linky
Its expected the device will arrive in Japan about today. Its got the usual company spiel in regards to promoting their product and how the company is a good corporate citizen, however the main important parts are here.

62m Sany Truck Mounted Concrete Pump Sent to Support Fukushima

Since the outbreak of Japan’s nuclear crises in Fukushima nuclear power station, the determination and the strong will of Japanese people have touched the whole world. In March 19th, Tokyo Electic Power Company (TEP), which runs the plant, sent mail to China’s Embassy in Japan and Sany Heavy Industry, hoping to buy Sany 62m concrete pump to support the water spraying operation in the nuclear plant. Sany has showed great concern at the event and responded positively that Sany would offer its 62m concrete pump to TEP free of charge to help fight against the current crises. The equipment has left Sany head quarter in Changsha and is now heading towards Shanghai. It is estimated that the concrete pump will arrive in Japan on next Wednesday.

Sany 62m truck mounted concrete pump ready to support Japan
March 19th, a emergency mail from TEP president Masataka Shimizu has been sent to Sany Heavy Industry. In the letter, he wrote, “As we experienced a very severe earth quake and a huge tsunami on March 11th, 2011, we now has serious situation to cope with in our nuclear power plant. We certainly appreciate your kindest offer to send your product, Truck mounted concrete pump SY5502THB 62B to Japan free of charge. We would like to accept this offer and would like to use the truck mounted concrete pump SY5502THB in Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station. Thank you again and we anxiously wait for the pump to arrive.”

According to reports that TEP has been using equipments like fire truck, military helicopter, truck mounted concrete pump to spray water into the reactors, trying to cool them down and restart the reactors’ cooling system. TEP knew that Sany was the record holder for the concrete pump with the longest boom reach. Then it sent purchase inquiry of Sany SY5502THB truck mounted concrete pump to Sany Heavy Industry. After hearing the situation in Japan, Mr. LIANG Wengen, chairman of Sany Heavy Industry promised that Sany would give its 62m concrete pump to TPE free of charge and was willing to help Japanese people fight against this crises.

I assume this is so they can use the concrete pump to pump water, rather than concrete (ie they haven't decided to do a Chernobyl type seal yet).

[Broomstick]

According to a IAEA report some radioactive particles did escape: they have found iodine and calcium radioisotopes in food south of Fukushima.

The Agency continues to receive data confirming high levels of radioactivity in food, notably spinach, in samples taken from 37 locations in the vicinity of five cities south of the Fukishima site. This indicates that in four Prefectures some food products are above permissible levels. High levels of both Iodine-131 and Caesium-137 have been measured by the Japanese authorities in spinach and some other fresh vegetables, together with Iodine-131 in milk. However, as reported yesterday, distribution of food from the areas affected has been restricted. The Japanese authorities are monitoring the situation in the rest of the country. Further monitoring data will be provided by Japan to the IAEA/FAO on an ongoing basis.

Not sure if I mentioned this here yet - I know I've brought it up elsewhere.

Spinach has enormous affinity for metals. It's one reason it's such a healthy food, it soaks up iron, calcium, all kinds of nutrients from the soil. The problem is, it also soaks up things like lead and yes, cesium.

This means that in addition to food it has utility as a sentinal plant for contamination, and it has also been used to remediate contaminated soil. Planting spinach on, say, soil contaminated with lead for several years can significantly reduce the lead content. Of course, you can't use such spinach for food.

Milk and spinach are both foods were contamination of this sort shows up quickly and can be higher than the contamination of other foods. I've also seen a report that other leafy greens are now restricted for similar reason. I also caught a brief report on NHK that I think referred to some other isotopes found (Co is cobalt, right?) but it was mostly in Japanese so my comprehension was severely limited. So take it as a confirmation that the situation is being monitored and there is some contamination. In sea water as well, which shouldn't be a surprise given the wind direction.

Browsing some of the finance websites, I saw a link claiming that Japan has acquired massive concrete pumps from China. Its from the company website.

... [snip]...

I assume this is so they can use the concrete pump to pump water, rather than concrete (ie they haven't decided to do a Chernobyl type seal yet).

Might have a dual use - to pump water, and also to be on hand in case the concrete entombment is determined to be a good idea.

[Pendleton]

I don't see it reported here, but TEPCO has announced that Reactor 1 is 80 degrees over it's operating temperature. This was a supposedly scrammed reactor. Reactor 3 is even worse.

[Sea Skimmer]

That's hot, but IIRC you need to nearly triple the operating temperature on this type of reactor before it begins melting. I believe operating temp is 570 degrees F and fuel damage begins around 1,500 degrees F. I assume that 80 degree figure is kelvin or celsius? So that would appear to mean that they are far away from a meltdown at the moment; even if melting may have occur earlier.

[Terralthra]

Per NHK, power has been restored to the reactors' thermometers. #3 is at 366 degrees C, and #1 is at 394 degrees C. Below operating temperature, but still quite warm.

source

[Terralthra]

More information on the radioactive material detected:

Japan's science ministry says radiation exceeding 400 times the normal level was detected in soil about 40 kilometers from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The ministry surveyed radioactive substances in soil about 5 centimeters below the surface at roadsides on Monday.

The ministry found 43,000 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per kilogram of soil, and 4,700 becquerels of radioactive cesium-137 per kilogram about 40 kilometers west-northwest of the plant.

Gunma University Professor Keigo Endo says radiation released by the iodine is 430 times the level normally detected in soil in Japan and that released by the cesium is 47 times the norm.

Endo says the data means that a person staying at the location for one year would be exposed to 4 times the amount of radiation allowed by national standards. The professor says there is no immediate health risk, but that radioactive cesium can accumulate in soil and that radiation levels must continue to be monitored.

The science ministry says there is no environmental standard for radioactive substances in soil, and that it sees no problem at this time.

[Master of Ossus]

Per NHK, power has been restored to the reactors' thermometers. #3 is at 366 degrees C, and #1 is at 394 degrees C. Below operating temperature, but still quite warm.

source

The zircaloy casing for the rods shouldn't melt until about 1800 degrees C, though. The uranium oxide itself shouldn't melt until it reaches a significantly higher temperature. But it's not clear WHERE that temperature was measured, from the statement. They should really only be concerned about the very highest points of the rods, and perhaps the highest points at which the uranium oxide seats against the zircaloy, because those should've been the first areas uncovered by the cooling water and the last points to be resubmerged under the coolant as they restored power.

[Magis]

That's hot, but IIRC you need to nearly triple the operating temperature on this type of reactor before it begins melting. I believe operating temp is 570 degrees F and fuel damage begins around 1,500 degrees F. I assume that 80 degree figure is kelvin or celsius? So that would appear to mean that they are far away from a meltdown at the moment; even if melting may have occur earlier.

The operating temperature of the coolant for a BWR Mark I is 280C. The exothermic zirc/steam reactions occur at about 1200C and Zirc oxide / Uranium dioxide both melt at close to 2800C.

[AndroAsc]

Situation seems to be getting worse after a relatively quiet part early this week.

No significant progress on reactors 1 to 4 this week. NHK reported that some smoke/steam was seen through all reactors 1 to 4. Great.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEfXMBDW ... r_embedded

Concerns about salt buildup adding an additional insulating layer which may impede further attempts at cooling.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world ... ima&st=cse

Now reactor 5 cooling has issues. Again...

Neutron beam has sighted yesterday, indicating the possibility of fission reaction restarting?
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80539.html

And all of these are from the mainstream media. What is *NOT* being reported, I wonder?

[PeZook]

And all of these are from the mainstream media. What is *NOT* being reported, I wonder?

Obviously, there are now thousands of dead technicians laying at the base of all six reactors, and there's been a massive release of radioactivity from the plant which will kill millions to billions of people ALL CROSS THE GLOBE and oh by the way Japan will be completely depopulated and will sink under the ocean due to a SECOND TSUNAMI that is now incoming but is not being reporter due to an INFORMATION BLACKOUT. Imposed, no doubt, by agents of the new world order.[/rampant unfounded speculation]

...

Or, you know, the situation is roughly how it is being reported and your idiotic continued appeals to ignorance are becoming really annoying.

[AndroAsc]

Or, you know, the situation is roughly how it is being reported and your idiotic continued appeals to ignorance are becoming really annoying.

My opinions are based on an extrapolation on how the Japanese govt and TEPCO has handled the situation from Day 1 - with the total lack of transparency. If you want to gobble up everything that is fed to you like an unthinking idiot go ahead...

Not to mention some plans that were not followed up on. What happened to the boric acid shipment? What about the Ukraine specialist who suggested using molten zinc? And lastly, has the Chernobyl solution been examined in any greater detail?

[PeZook]

My opinions are based on an extrapolation on how the Japanese govt and TEPCO has handled the situation from Day 1 - with the total lack of transparency. If you want to gobble up everything that is fed to you like an unthinking idiot go ahead...

Yes, the lack of transparency is so total that we get hour-by-hour updates on the situation. Your definition of an "unthinking idiot" is hilarious, BTW. Apparently, conspiracy theorist reasoning is "thinking" now...

Not to mention some plans that were not followed up on. What happened to the boric acid shipment? What about the Ukraine specialist who suggested using molten zinc? And lastly, has the Chernobyl solution been examined in any greater detail?

How do you know these plans were not followed up on? "Examined and discarded as unfeasible" is a follow-up, too. For example, how would you transport and inject molten zinc into the reactors, since there's absolutely no built-in provisions to do so, and transport capabilities are limited?

You also keep referencing the "chernobyl solution" which wasn't a solution at all. Dropping concrete on the molten core was a plan that resulted from, you know, the total destruction of the entire reactor block. Fukushima is not Chernobyl and it would be nice if people stopped thinking the situations are completely analogous.

You really sound like a guy hanging around a scene of a train crash continuously complaining that the rescue crews don't explain everything they do to him in excruciating detail, and suggesting solutions from the sidelines.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Using the 'Chernobyl Solution' now would be akin to amputating a leg AFTER removing all the gangrenous tissue. There's no need or reason.

[Simon_Jester]

My opinions are based on an extrapolation on how the Japanese govt and TEPCO has handled the situation from Day 1 - with the total lack of transparency. If you want to gobble up everything that is fed to you like an unthinking idiot go ahead...

You remind me of a blind man groping around in broad daylight and complaining that someone's turned off all the lights. I'm not unsympathetic, but the fact remains that it's not the world's fault you don't know what's going on.

Not to mention some plans that were not followed up on. What happened to the boric acid shipment? What about the Ukraine specialist who suggested using molten zinc? And lastly, has the Chernobyl solution been examined in any greater detail?

In order:
1) It probably got put down in a parking lot or something so they can use it when they need it. They are under no obligation to tell you which parking lot.
2) Maybe someone told him it was a bad idea, maybe he looked at the plant blueprints again and said "Crap. Never mind." They are under no obligation to issue press releases following up every random event that some clown with a camera manages to record and put on the Internet. In real life, people who are responsible* will have other things to worry about than providing micromanagement-level information to people who are not responsible.**
3) Presumably it has been acknowledged in great detail and rejected by people who know more about nuclear reactors than you. Like, say, multiple amateurs on this thread alone.

You don't seem to know the difference between "what I imagine should happen based on my fucked up picture of events isn't happening" and "the problem is being ignored." Or the difference between "I'm not hearing what I expect to hear" and "I'm being lied to by a government that lacks transparency in spite of the fact that it's releasing more news about events on an hour-by-hour basis."

*Unlike you, because you are responsible for nothing
**Like you; see above.

[Zixinus]

Dude, the IAEA is making daily updates.

The white smoke observed did not cause spike in irradiation. Likely some water burning off.

What's this about a neutron beam? One news source tells nothing.

A vessel from the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology (JAMSTEC) collected water samples at several points 30 kilometres from the coastline and found measurable concentrations of iodine-131 and cesium-137. The iodine concentrations were at or above Japanese regulatory limits, and the cesium levels were well below those limits.

Which is worrying and really bad for people who live there (no fishing or farming).

[PeZook]

They didn't say how much above those limits ; If it's only slightly exceeded, fishing should be fine.

Of course, yeah, if there's enough cessium to cause danger, we'll be feeling environmental impact for a while. It's actully one of the better arguments against nuclear power: that a release of radioactive material is so persistent. On the other hand, it's not like piles of coal ash are any environmentally friendlier

[Patrick Degan]

Of course, yeah, if there's enough cessium to cause danger, we'll be feeling environmental impact for a while. It's actully one of the better arguments against nuclear power: that a release of radioactive material is so persistent. On the other hand, it's not like piles of coal ash are any environmentally friendlier

Not to mention millions of gallons of crude oil combined with corexit.

[Broomstick]

My opinions are based on an extrapolation on how the Japanese govt and TEPCO has handled the situation from Day 1

And you are qualified to judge their response to the situation because.... why? What is your background and/or expertise in government, emergency response, fire fighting, hazardous material situations, nuclear engineering, building engineering, power generation, or any of the other applicable specialties?

If you're just a self-informed amateur then get a grip on the fact that such knowledge is limited and prone to error.

... with the total lack of transparency.

Um.... what?

I recall hearing that the nuclear plants SCRAM'ed even before things went pear-shaped (well, other than the massive earthquake and tsunami - those were a pretty pair of pears all by themselves), mentioned that the diesel backups were down even while the battery power was running things, rapid acknowledged of explosions, fires, smoke, steam, radiation....

WTF more do you want? WTF more do you think you are entitled to know? The FIRST priority is dealing with the emergency, not informing amateur armchair analysts halfway around the globe. You might call that lack of transparency. Others might call it responsible prioritizing.

Not to mention some plans that were not followed up on.

Already followed up by others, so I have nothing more to add to this point.

[mr friendly guy]

Browsing some of the finance websites, I saw a link claiming that Japan has acquired massive concrete pumps from China. Its from the company website.

Well according to Chinese news sites, it seems to have arrived.

Xinhua