Defending the Federation(RAR)

[darthy]

From the OP:

You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.

Here's the problem right here.

So in other words, no one's impressed. I'm hurt.

Situation: You're in charge of the Federation Council in a 100% (this is a RAR) realistic simulation of an Empire v.s Federation war, with both galaxies fully simulated- this loosens your moral constraints. The wormhole is from a point in the "middle of nowhere" in Federation space to a similiar one in Imperial space- the programmer postulated a total victory at the battle of the second Death Star, but the foe is Palpatine's Empire.

I didn't consider that. Since it's all just a simulation then I could just find a way to cause an infinite loop or an error like divid by zero error and prevent defeat that way. I never met a game I couldn't crash. Maybe just put a lot of ships by the wormhole so that the collision detection in the program doesn't let ships on the other side through. Or I'd use a game hack and go ahead and crush the empire that way. Kirk used this method to win in the Kobayashi Maru which was programmed to be a no win situation.

[darthy]

Sorry, but it doesn't depend on method at all, every example you've given fit perfectly with the "Many Worlds" model.

There is no way to alter the current timeline, time travel only creates parallel universes in trek.

(snipped examples of many worlds view imposed on star trek episodes)

In episode "storm front pt 2", we see visuals of the timeline resetting itself after archer stops Vosk. If timeline's don't change, why do we see visual evidence and dialogue which state the timeline is changing?

In enterprise episode "carpenter steet"

ARCHER: Maybe you could fill in a few of the blanks for me. The Xindi weapon would be a good place to start.
DANIELS: We don't know any more than you do.
ARCHER: I thought you and your colleagues were supposed to be keeping an eye on the time line. You're from the thirtieth century. Hasn't all this happened already?
DANIELS: History doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi.
ARCHER: How could that be?
DANIELS: The events that are taking place are the result of temporal incursions. They are not supposed to be happening.
ARCHER: But they are happening.
DANIELS: Yes, they are, but the outcome hasn't reached us yet. It takes a while for changes to ripple through the time line.

how can changes ripple through a timeline when timelines can't be changed?

In episode "future's end"

BRAXTON [on viewscreen]: In my century we can scan time, much as you use sensors to scan space. The Temporal Integrity Commission detected your vessel over twentieth century Earth. I was sent to correct that anomaly. Prepare to follow me back into the rift. I'm returning you to your own time, to your previous co-ordinates in the Delta Quadrant.
JANEWAY: Captain, we've been trying to get home to Earth for the last two years. Can you return us to our century but keep us here, in the Alpha Quadrant?
BRAXTON [on viewscreen]: I'm sorry. Temporal Prime Directive. I'm afraid you're on your own. Braxton out.

How can they have an ability so scan for changes in time if it's impossible to change time?

The essay by Michael Wong regarding many worlds model found here http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... TimeTravel has already been debunked here http://pastehtml.com/view/1dpfjxp.html

It's not a proven fact that time works that way across the board in star trek. So it cannot be used as a fact, just a consideration. If time travel creates another universe and all of these universes are considered part of star trek then it shouldn't matter which universe of star trek wins. Whether you think the federation saves a federation from an alternate universe instead of their own shouldn't matter if one universe is regarded equally to another. Using the many worlds interpretation, from our point of view the federation gets advanced notice from a future federation in an alternate universe.

Besides, how is warning the federation of the Empire's invasion, or that the Empire will follow them through into the mirror universe supposed to help anyway? Just because they can see it coming doesn't mean they can stop it.

I told you already. If the empire tries something, then the federation sends that information to the past informing themselves of what the Empire's plans are. This would give the federation enough time to evacuate somewhere else, like another universe, another galaxy, another time, or all of the above.

[Batman]

Sorry, but it doesn't depend on method at all, every example you've given fit perfectly with the "Many Worlds" model.
In episode "storm front pt 2", we see visuals of the timeline resetting itself after archer stops Vosk. If timeline's don't change, why do we see visual evidence and dialogue which state the timeline is changing?

I am SO dying to see you presenting visuals for a timeline actually changing.

In enterprise episode "carpenter steet"
SNIPPY dialogue

how can changes ripple through a timeline when timelines can't be changed?

I hate to tell you, but all dialogue is evidence of is...the people involved saying what they did. That doesn't make what they said true. 100% of available evidence says Trek time travel works on some subset of the Multiple Worlds/Parallel Universes/Trousers of Time
variation of Time Travel.

In episode "future's end"
SNIPPY DIALOGUE
How can they have an ability so scan for changes in time if it's impossible to change time?

Who says they do? Again, all you have is dialogue. Also, flat out wrong. Just because you can't change your own timeline doesn't mean you can't detect attempts to time travel.

It's not a proven fact that time works that way across the board in star trek.

It very much does most of the time I'm afraid.

So it cannot be used as a fact, just a consideration. If time travel creates another universe and all of these universes are considered part of star trek

And this is where you lose, because, you see, they aren't. Star Trek is what we see on screen. No what kinda mighta coulda been.

then it shouldn't matter which universe of star trek wins. Whether you think the federation saves a federation from an alternate universe instead of their own shouldn't matter if one universe is regarded equally to another.

Which they aren't. One is the official Star Trek universe, while the others are...not. Valen. I've run into enough people who ignore the official canon policies, but I think you're the first one who is apparently too bloody stupid to understand them.

Using the many worlds interpretation, from our point of view the federation gets advanced notice from a future federation in an alternate universe.

Which is of what use, exactly, to the Federation in the original universe?

Besides, how is warning the federation of the Empire's invasion, or that the Empire will follow them through into the mirror universe supposed to help anyway? Just because they can see it coming doesn't mean they can stop it.

I told you already. If the empire tries something, then the federation sends that information to the past informing themselves of what the Empire's plans are. This would give the federation enough time to evacuate somewhere else, like another universe, another galaxy, another time, or all of the above.

So essentially they run. And going to another galaxy using Warp drive may take a while. And I'd like you to elaborate on the evacuation bit if you could be bothered. Because the Feds are routinely strained trying to evacuate one lousy planet.

[Batman]

I hate to tell you, but all dialogue is evidence of is...the people involved saying what they did. That doesn't make what they said true. 100% of available evidence says Trek time travel works on some subset of the Multiple Worlds/Parallel Universes/Trousers of Time
variation of Time Travel.

Actually, dialog is evidence too, so saying 100% is unlikely to be not true.

Technically, you just supported my point, but as I assume you to have meant 100% is unlikely to be true, I'll happily agree. However, as
the vast majority of evidence other than dialogue pretty much says it's the Trousers of Time/Parallel Universes etc ...

And I'd like you to elaborate on the evacuation bit if you could be bothered. Because the Feds are routinely strained trying to evacuate one lousy planet.

Planets are pretty fucking big!

Yet darthy expects them to be able to evacuate not only one, but all of them to another universe/galaxy before the Imperials arrive.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I skimmed through this, and as far as I can see there's no author's name or contact info. No accountability, no credibility; it can't be Darkstars as he has his own site.

I'm guessing his argument re: evac centres on using transporters to send inhabitants from any given planet to the mirror universe counterpart of said planet, however you're still going to need ships on the MU side to move people on, else you're going to get planets with twice as many people as they will have infrastructure for. All that really accomplishes is moving the problem of logistics into the mirror universe

[EnterpriseSovereign]

One of the things I take issue with, looking at that is that if the "Temporal Prime Directive" is used as an excuse as to why time travel is not used in various instances where it might be beneficial because of contaminating the timeline (since anything they do to change history is by definition is doing exactly that), then it's no more likely to be used in a vs scenario for that very same reason.

And if a curbstomp like Wolf 359 doesn't prompt the Federation to use time travel, and getting hammered by the Dominion doesn't, how much of a clusterfuck does an Imperial invasion have to stir up before the Federation gets desperate enough to try something like that?

I find it hilarious that the author has to immediately reach for future Federation tech in the interests of "making it fair". There's simply not enough evidence that the Federation has moved far enough forwards in that time to compensate for the order-of-magnitudes difference between their power generation capability and the Empires, let alone all the other advantages it has. And since SW is supposed to have happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, if any side should get a tech boost, it's the SW side

[Darth Tedious]

To try time travel, all that's needed is for someone to order Jim Kirk to avoid the planet Earth at all costs... which is another count that the many worlds interpretation is pretty well bunk. It invalidates that whole film.

It doesn't necessarily invalidate STIV. Creating an alternate universe in which Earth was saved works if you consider that we are following the characters and not the universe. This is a matter of perspective, though.

However, if being in a parallel universe invaildates a film, STXI would be invalid.

[darthy]

I am SO dying to see you presenting visuals for a timeline actually changing.

Simple enough...



only for the amusement of watching you try to explain it away

I hate to tell you, but all dialogue is evidence of is...the people involved saying what they did. That doesn't make what they said true. 100% of available evidence says Trek time travel works on some subset of the Multiple Worlds/Parallel Universes/Trousers of Time
variation of Time Travel.

In a court of law what they say would be considered evidence. That's why they have eye witness testimonies and junk.

Who says they do? Again, all you have is dialogue. Also, flat out wrong. Just because you can't change your own timeline doesn't mean you can't detect attempts to time travel.

how did Braxton know what time and when to return voyager if they were from another universe? It may be possible to explain these things away but you'll no doubt cringe while typing it out and look stupid in the attempt.

Which they aren't. One is the official Star Trek universe, while the others are...not. Valen. I've run into enough people who ignore the official canon policies, but I think you're the first one who is apparently too bloody stupid to understand them.

You're an idiot if you think you can have only one official star trek universe and a many-worlds model view of time travel at the same time. When the slightest alteration of time is made, they are in a new universe according to you. Often times the episodes continue along from this new universe. No?

So essentially they run. And going to another galaxy using Warp drive may take a while. And I'd like you to elaborate on the evacuation bit if you could be bothered. Because the Feds are routinely strained trying to evacuate one lousy planet.

Enough advanced notice of the empire's coming via time travel. Evacuation to the mirror, mirror via bajorian wormhole and transporter. Have sisko get the profits to close the wormhole. They could make use of the traveler or seven of nine making quantum singularities if they want to go to another galaxy.

[darthy]

To try time travel, all that's needed is for someone to order Jim Kirk to avoid the planet Earth at all costs... which is another count that the many worlds interpretation is pretty well bunk. It invalidates that whole film.

It doesn't necessarily invalidate STIV. Creating an alternate universe in which Earth was saved works if you consider that we are following the characters and not the universe. This is a matter of perspective, though.

However, if being in a parallel universe invaildates a film, STXI would be invalid.

If what people say in dialogue isn't considered canon then we don't know if STXI occurs in a parallel universe or not based off of what spock said.

[Darth Tedious]

To try time travel, all that's needed is for someone to order Jim Kirk to avoid the planet Earth at all costs... which is another count that the many worlds interpretation is pretty well bunk. It invalidates that whole film.

It doesn't necessarily invalidate STIV. Creating an alternate universe in which Earth was saved works if you consider that we are following the characters and not the universe. This is a matter of perspective, though.

However, if being in a parallel universe invaildates a film, STXI would be invalid.

If what people say in dialogue isn't considered canon then we don't know if STXI occurs in a parallel universe or not based off of what spock said.

What people say in dialogue is considered canon- it just isn't considered valid evidence if there is overriding visual evidence. There is an overwhelming amount of visual evidence in STXI to support it being an alternate reality.

[Azron_Stoma]

Looking through it, he brings up several examples that do through doubt into the many universes thing - Sela and "Time's Arrow" being the two big ones I've seen so far. And "The City on the Edge of Forever", of course!

However in "Time's Arrow" both those cases there is no actual change to the timeline as they know it, except for the momentary timeline splice in City on the Edge of Forever. Sela seems to be more of an alternate timeline factor though, since she was created by one (alternate yar).

I skimmed through this, and as far as I can see there's no author's name or contact info. No accountability, no credibility; it can't be Darkstars as he has his own site.

That was made by marsh8472, we already tore it a new one here.

Except the race isn't being "erased" just shunted into an Alternate Timeline and the two timelines are momentarily spliced.

[darthy]

However in "Time's Arrow" both those cases there is no actual change to the timeline as they know it, except for the momentary timeline splice in City on the Edge of Forever.

"time's arrow" represents a predestination paradox. There's no reason to think a many worlds model applys here if there are no contradictions.
So we can say that the way a timeline behaves depensd on the method of time travel applied.

Except the race isn't being "erased" just shunted into an Alternate Timeline and the two timelines are momentarily spliced.

Yes new timeline, same universe. Your concession is accepted on this matter.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

That was made by marsh8472, we already tore it a new one here.

There wasn't even a debate there. It's just a tl;dr dogpile, but no fight back. You can't determine truth like that.

How much do you want to bet it's the same guy under a new name? There are some striking similarities

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Darthy was Marsh8472 under a new name, his referencing that so-called debunking makes me wonder

[darthy]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Darthy was Marsh8472 under a new name, his referencing that so-called debunking makes me wonder

never heard of him.

[Azron_Stoma]

I doubt it, Marsh's style is different. Darthy didn't bring in time travel until he got to his plan C. Where as Time Travel is the entire basis behind Marsh's "strategy".

So we can say that the way a timeline behaves depensd on the method of time travel applied.

It's not the method, it's the result. No paradoxes were created, when a paradox occurs, that's when alternate timeliness come into play.

Yes new timeline, same universe. Your concession is accepted on this matter.

No concession given. New Timeline = New Universe. There's no such thing as a new timeline, same universe.

It's no different than future molly vanishing as she is sent to an alternate timeline. You might as well have posted a picture of her in mid vanish where she would be see-through and assume that the timeline is being changed as a result, it's not. She is just no longer compatible with the events of the current universe, so she goes to one where she is.

[Connor MacLeod]

Time Travel is again another of those technologies that we know so little about (or may be open to interpretation in various ways) that it is just begging to be abused. I mean if you were going to use that as a benchmark for power and capability, then one could argue that the Federation coudl demolish the Culture effortlessly (and some HAVE argued that I should add, citing Time Travel as the reason because Banks IIRC says no time travel exists in the Culture universe.) and tell suspension of disbelief to fuck off. But again, that's comic book tactics and I'd prefer staying away from comic book tactics unless we can come up with a workable model for time travel in Trek (multiple, slightly differing continuities existing even within the series? Maybe thats why time travel seems to flip flop between different ideas.)

Even if we allow for some arbitrarily omnipotent time travel ability, whose to say those factions who watch over the continuity and make sure it does't get fucked up would even LET that happen? The Q come to mind, but the Federation (esp in the future itself as well as the present) have organizations dedicated to preventing fuckups in time and space. And Given the Federation's attitude towards super weapons (they seem to not like using them, even if the situation is serious) I'm pretty sure they would not want time travel being used (That would probably qualify as a WMD/superweapon type thing.) for various reasons (MAD, ethics, etc.) Hell, I'd bet the "arbitrarily powerful time travellers" of the future would be more likely just to alter things so that a "other universe vs Trek" setup simply did not occur (obliterate the wormhole) rather than just wipe the other side off the face of the map. Again "Time travel = Win" argument seems to be more of something a comic bookish fanboy type would come up with rather than a genuine, legitimate tactic.

I don't know though, everything about the Empire just screams "WASTE" to me. Look at the gigantic walkers they have. The enormous Death Star. Ridiculously big capships.

All of them are much bigger than they really need to be to make a statement.

Yep. Lots of stuff in Star Wars is larger, less efficient, and generally more convoluted than it needs to be. Of course, given the nature of the universe (EG no real threats up until the Vong showed up, and even that's debatable) I'd say they can get away with that (in-universe at least.) Given how much economics and politics dictates everything in star wars (including the military) I doubt it would be any other way (mass produced Inter-Galactic Ballistic Missiles are a bad thing, IMHO.) Hell think of the parallels to the US and real life in that (wasteful of resources, obsessed with capitalism, many facets of society driven by politics and economics, etc.)

Hell, if anything that's probably an advantage for the Federation. From the Empire's POV the FEderation si likely to be a sector or a cluster of sectors in terms of size/scope and potential power. When you have potentially thousands of such sectors, why would you obsess over a fraction of that? Hell, if SW gained access to the ST galaxy, its more likely Palpatine would AVOID demolishing it all in short order simply to milk it politically for all its worth ("Hey look we found a new galaxy, and its full of possible scary bogeyman threats. Give me more money and power to vanquish this threat." Does that tactic sound familiar?) so we can virtually guarantee that the Empire is unlikely to swiftly or effortlessly crush the SW galaxy even if they could do so in theory.

And if THAT wasn't enough, there's also the fact that the economic and mercantile/corporate interests in SW would likely want to get in on the action with the ST galaxy as well (a whole new market to break into, take over, etc.) You can't do that if you're going around conquering and obliterating 90% of the galaxy now, could you?

It's a much more complex scenario, but also one which gives the Federation more of a chance than the usual vs "stand up fight to the death for no apparent reason."

[Connor MacLeod]

Absolutely. The Empire is too big. A sector fleet, on the other hand, just might be manageable, and that seems to me to be the most they'd actually send. (They don't even bother sending big fleets to local problems like the Rebellion or gangsters on Tatooine, so this far away place probably wouldn't warrant much more attention.)

The biggest thing the ST galaxy is going to have going for it is SW politics, and the relative insignificance compared to SW of most of the major players (That we know of, at least.) Palpy is going to want to exert MAXIMUM control over access to that galaxy, and to the information going in and out. It's likely he'd send a large force to secure both sides of whatever wormhole(s) exist to either galaxy, but beyond that... who knows. HE might not actually bother waging much in the way of an offensive war if he goes in there, other than what might be needed for propoganda purposes. Diplomatic and Economic avenues (with "peacekeeping" forces assigned to guard them) seem more likely (again, the mercantile interests in SW will be salivating to get ahold of things, and I imagine Palpatine can use access as a means to control or influence the corporate allies to his own ends.) That fact alone is going to dictate a "no wiping out opposing civilizations" thing and quite probably limit firepower even more. The Borg, et-al might still be problems, but SW ought to be able to prune them back without having ot obliterate them (it will cost lives and material of course, but to Palpy that woudl likely be a trivial cost.)

There's also interesting avenues in what happens if/when the REbellion finds out and tries infiltrating (another possibility. ) Sooner or later if the Imperial military DOES expand in the SW galaxy (again for peacekeeping and security of territory that is conquered, bribed, coerced, or willingly joins the Empire) they are going to have to recruit from the native populace. Rebellion/secession and such problems will now be an issue - though Palpy will likely see that as more benefit than drawback (more conflict to fuel his grab for power, really.) But imagine if say, Federation or Romulan saboteurs destroyed an ISD in drydock, or something (It's been done).

Hell, I'm *liking* this scenario, its complicated, but there's enough nuance to make it interesting as long as you stay away from the comic book instawin tactics.

Though the build up scenario is hilarious to me. Star Wars sometimes sounds like that hilarious film "Canadian Bacon"! Of course, just like in that movie, an invasion is the last thing they need, since it'd put a stop to all the fun...

I vaguely recall a John Candy movie by that name, but I never saw it. Anyhow, the "buildup" I was thinking is that Palpy uses the ST galaxy the same way he used the separatists in the Clone Wars. Gain more absolute power, build up the military, get it under his control, marginalize opposition, etc. It's probable that the bulk of the "build up" would go on on the SW side, to consolidate his control ("Protecting the homeland" and all that.) Think of the propoganda value of the Borg, or the Dominion (Shape shifters INFILTRATING OUR SOCIETY!), or hell the Viidians (THEY'LL STEAL YOUR CHILDREN'S ORGANS! BUY WAR BONDS!) If anything it starts sounding more like Pre-holocaust Fallout to me.

[Connor MacLeod]

Another fun idea that grabbed me and may add "balance" to the issue. What if Hypermatter were either indefinitely inaccessible in the SW galaxy (if the "hyperspace tap" idea of a hypermatter reactor had merit, for example, the SW ships in the ST galaxy may very well be partly or totally cut off from that source.) or accessible but in limited quantitites due to supply and demand (if this isnt a major undertaking there's no reason to assume they have top priority on military supply, SW has lots of power intensive industries that could tkae precedence even outside the Military, such as the Holonet). There is also the fact that depending on how many wormholes they hav,e and how big they are, there will be a finite rate to how much mateiral one can ship in and out of a wormhole at any given time, so there are going to ve inevitable tradeoffs no matter what.

Anyhow, given some short of lack or shortage of hypermatter (or other critical supplies to the normal functioning of SW warships) its quite possible they may have to re-design their ships to operate in the Star Trek galaxy. Trading off things like acceleration and firepower (or even durability) for greater operational endurance for one (especially if exploring - its debatable whether they will be able to achieve optimum Hyperdrive speeds in the STG without maps, navigational aids, and such.) They may opt for more numerous, smaller ships as well. Weapons may have to opt for greater reliability/durability in questionable logistical situations in exchange for firepower (its not like it would neccesarily be a HUGE sacrifice, either. SW firepower calcs are pretty diverse.) I could see the Navy opting to build ships that run on antimatter or even fusion power, because the fuel would be more readily available in ST, for example, even if it meant giving up "super fucking huge" firepower yields. In my scenario they wouldn't need it, and even if they did there are always warheads of some kind.

Hell, even if hypermatter were "unlimited" It's quite likely a ship resdesign would force a tradeoff in firepower over some other features (endurance) simply to operate there. SW ships are designed to operate within fast, easy range of bases of supply - a situation that could not be assumed in Trek neccesarily. And there is cost. There would be sense in SW choosing to build "lower tech" examples of a Star Destroyer (less firepower, less durability, etc.) or even just smaller ships (firgates, etc.) simply because they're cheaper and more easily replaced (especially with more automation.) Differences in tactics (EG warp strafing) may force changes in armament design as well (a big ass heavy TL turret may work against SW ships, but probsably not against most Trek ships, so trade off size and firepower/recoil for numbers and tracking ability. A beefed up lancer frigate, IOW.)

I could envision a sort of interesting division of military assets: you have powerful, well protected islands of naval might that only extend a limited distance due to logistics, and then you have another fleet of less powerful/durable (possibly more expendable) warships for exploration and offensive purposes.

Another fun possibility: Luke Campbell of the Laser Death Ray/SFConsim/Atomic rockets site speculated on a fictional sci fi race creating wormholes by sacrificing planetary masses to create them of a certain size (A few hundred metres, for eample.) What if such occured in a SW scenario? They might be able to (eventually, depending on time/energy/effort) create multiple artificial wormholes linking the two galaxies (maybe it happened accidentally as an experiment) but what if they weren't very large? Say less than kilometer in width? That is going to impact how big a starship (nevermind the logistics) you can send through it, even if you could create scores or hundreds of them in a short timeframe (I don't remember how long or how fast it would go, and if it could be controlled/replicated in that way.) That opens lots of possibilities (what if the Fed side can amass forces to defend the wormhole? SW has to figure out how to get through. to secur it first. I think they could devise a means given time/effort.)

[mr friendly guy]

Ok, first thing I would do is close the wormhole. Now thats out the way, lets see what we can come up with that hasn't been suggested before and see if we can make it entertaining, as per the OP to impress people. This is assuming I can't close the wormhole for whatever reason.

1. Confiscate the Doctor's mobile emitter and get 7 of 9 to assimilate it and out comes advanced tech. Sure it might not be enough to defeat the empire, but I always wanted to do that to give the Federation a tech boost.

2. Bargain with the Empire and try and get a tech boost. Say we want to become a part of the empire, with limited autonomy. Time it such that by the time the UFP installs it fully (even if its out of date the SW standards), Palpatine would kind of have been killed in RoTJ. Since I am in charge of the Federation council, I should be able to research things on the star wars wiki (before I am placed in charge) and figure how many years it takes. After that declare neutrality so you can escape the wars between the new Republic and the Empire, the Vong war etc etc.

3. Do a similar thing to 2, but this time you just need hyperspace capability. I suppose one could try and capture a civilian ship. The next step is to synthesise Omega particles, activate the hyperdrive and then detonate it in hyperspace, and watch technobabble technobabble chain reaction ruin hyperspace. Since you rely on subspace, you can still use FTL capabilities.

I have no freaking idea if this will work, but I give myself full marks for originality.

4. Do a deal with the Melkotians, or whoever those aliens are with ridiculous mind powers. Ambush the empire ships in small groups with the following method.

Use their telepathic powers to make it seem like business as usual. Open a portal into fluidic space. The ship flies into said portal with no way back. Unless species 90210 decide to help them.

5. If that fails, escape engagements by opening a portal to fluidic space. Let the ships follow. I am gambling that the mass in fluidic space will act as a hyperspace shadow or whatever the term is, and limit hyperspace jumps as the computers will read it as near a planet or star.

The Federation ships then go into warp and out of range open a portal back in. Repeat said ambushes to make it costly for the Empire.

[mr friendly guy]

And to rip off my fan fiction where I give the Federation every technobabble advantage so that they don't totally get curbstomped by the Time Lords, get Tom Paris and start researching that spacebending coaxial warp drive. It doesn't even have to function properly, since when it malfunctions its theoretically supposed to collapse space. I figure that wouldn't do ships in that area much good. The problem is you have no way of testing it before its used, but then in keeping with fictional tropes we test it as we use it the first time.

[Darth Tedious]

And to rip off my fan fiction where I give the Federation every technobabble advantage so that they don't totally get curbstomped by the Time Lords, get Tom Paris and start researching that spacebending coaxial warp drive. It doesn't even have to function properly, since when it malfunctions its theoretically supposed to collapse space. I figure that wouldn't do ships in that area much good. The problem is you have no way of testing it before its used, but then in keeping with fictional tropes we test it as we use it the first time.

Come on, I think you're starting to get a little unrealistic now- there's not really any level of technological advantage that can protect against Timelord-style über-pwnage.

[mr friendly guy]

And to rip off my fan fiction where I give the Federation every technobabble advantage so that they don't totally get curbstomped by the Time Lords, get Tom Paris and start researching that spacebending coaxial warp drive. It doesn't even have to function properly, since when it malfunctions its theoretically supposed to collapse space. I figure that wouldn't do ships in that area much good. The problem is you have no way of testing it before its used, but then in keeping with fictional tropes we test it as we use it the first time.

Come on, I think you're starting to get a little unrealistic now- there's not really any level of technological advantage that can protect against Timelord-style über-pwnage.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=140176

Judge for yourself. The fic was completed last year.

[Eternal_Freedom]

And it was good, if a little mind-bending in places. As you said, you're the only author who can get away with wanking Trek up to absurd levels and still not get complaints

[Darth Tedious]

I'm blown away by the first chapter!
Given some of the ideas you've come up with in this thread, I can appreciate your ability to power Trek up without coming across as idiotic.
This should be good...