New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Themightytom »

So... we're famous for our idiot representatives who end up on youtube for rediculous reasons... But we've been quiet for a few days so we decided to jump on the Wisconsin bandwagon.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/2 ... -would-end
Unions: Bargaining would end
Plan: at-will status if contract expires
By Karen Langley / Monitor staff
March 24, 2011

Union leaders and Gov. John Lynch said yesterday that a change the House Finance Committee made to a budget bill would effectively end collective bargaining for public employees in New Hampshire.

The provision would give public employers full authority to determine employee wages, benefits and terms of employment after a contract expires. The workers would continue as at-will employees until a new contract was reached. Republican lawmakers approved the change to collective bargaining laws Tuesday evening as an amendment to a budget bill. Rep. Neal Kurk, who introduced the amendment, said the threat of losing contractual protections would moderate union demands, leading to less expensive contracts.

Yesterday, the leaders of state labor unions denounced the proposal. Mark MacKenzie, president of the New Hampshire AFL-CIO, called the amendment an "unprecedented attack" on public workers and called on House lawmakers to remove the provision.

The amendment would apply to all public employees, including state and county workers, teachers, police officers and firefighters. Unions put the number of workers at roughly 70,000.

The provision does not in itself end collective bargaining for public employees. But by voiding the terms of an expired contract, the provision would allow employers to wait out negotiations and then pay workers whatever they like, said David Lang, president of the Professional Fire Fighters of New Hampshire.

"Why would you have a mutual agreement when you knew full well at midnight at the end of the month you could do whatever you wanted?" Lang said.

The governor said yesterday he opposes the provision because it would effectively end collective bargaining in the state. But Lynch, a Democrat, said he would have to see the proposal in its final form before deciding if he would veto it.

"I think the employees have a right to bargain collectively," Lynch said. "I think this amendment would effectively end collective bargaining in New Hampshire, and I don't support it."

Democrats and union officials said the proposal would go further to curtail collective bargaining for public employees than the new law in Wisconsin, the proposal of which set off weeks of vigorous protests in Madison and prompted Democratic state senators to flee the state in an effort to forestall its passage.

That law limits collective bargaining to wages, with raises limited to inflation, and increases employee payments for health insurance and pensions. It also ends the automatic collection of union dues from paychecks and requires most unions to hold annual votes asking if members still want to belong.

Lang called the House proposal "Wisconsin on steroids." Rhonda Wesolowski, president of the state affiliate of the National Education Association, said it was "much worse" than the Wisconsin law.

"In Wisconsin, the workers were allowed to keep their benefits," Wesolowski said. "Here, we would become employees at will. You don't even know if you would have a job, much less benefits."

Kurk, a Weare Republican, vigorously denied that the proposal would curtail collective bargaining.

"This is not like Wisconsin," Kurk said. "This does not affect collective bargaining. This does not eliminate unions."

Instead, Kurk said, the proposal allows government employers to change the conditions of a contract once it expires. Union officials who claim employees could forgo a contract so they could unilaterally determine worker compensation and conditions are describing "what is theoretically possible under the amendment," Kurk said, rather than what actually would happen. Government executives would be fair to their workers, he said.

Employers are unlikely to change worker salaries, Kurk said, but likely would change "the overly generous pension provisions and the overly generous health care provisions that our taxpayers are being asked to pay for." He said that the average pay for a public worker is $46,000 but that when benefits are included the compensation package totals $69,920. (next page »)

In the end, Kurk said, he believes the threat of becoming at-will employees would prompt workers to agree to less expensive benefits.

"I think we're going to get contracts signed to make sure that never occurs," he said. "To make sure those contracts are signed, the unions will moderate some of their demands."

Union representatives and Democrats also criticized the committee for attaching the proposed change to a budget bill during an evening work session without prior notice. MacKenzie, of the AFL-CIO, said lawmakers had reverted to "political gamesmanship."

"You don't put major pieces of legislation and put them in a budget bill in the dark of night without public hearings," he said.

All six Democrats on the House Finance Committee voted against the proposal, along with one Republican, Rep. Lee Quandt of Exeter. Democratic Reps. Randy Foose of New London and Cindy Rosenwald of Nashua said members of their party had not known the proposal was coming.

"The arrogance of the majority party is on display every day," Foose said.

House Speaker William O'Brien defended how the proposal was added, saying in a statement that "this process is completely transparent and completely within normal procedure." O'Brien said the bill had yet to reach the House floor, the Senate or a committee of budget negotiators.

O'Brien said the proposal would allow employers to control costs. Otherwise, the state would have to lay off between 350 and 500 workers to pay for a cut of $50 million to employee health benefits, he said.

"The House included this provision as an incentive to bring the union to the table and get a deal done that protects the taxpayers," O'Brien said.

Rep. Kenneth Weyler, chairman of the Finance Committee, said that public workers have become a "favored class" and that citizens want a change.

"The people paying for it are getting tired of it," Weyler said. "They're saying, 'Why are teachers getting so much money?' "

Weyler, a Republican from Kingston, called it a "gross exaggeration" to say the provision would lead to the end of collective bargaining. He said employers would offer reasonable terms or see productivity suffer, or work stop.

"If you try to impose something so odious, people are going to call in sick or drag their feet going to the job," he said. "It would lead to illegal actions, but they are likely to happen if people get obstinate."

As an airline pilot for 30 years, before his retirement, Weyler said he was furloughed, put on half-pay and worked at-will between contracts. He said such provisions are part of many agreements.

"Sometimes there's more realism for the employer than there is for the employee," Weyler said. "The union, often all they know is 'more,' while the employer has to stay in business."

Tom Messina, a sergeant at the state prison in Concord, said he was angered to learn of the vote. For workers, Messina said, the continuous proposals to cut spending translate into a charge that they're not doing their jobs. He suggested lawmakers should re-evaluate sentencing guidelines if they want to save money.

"I could care less who we lock up and who we don't lock up," Messina said. "But if the Legislature wants to lock everybody up and throw away the key, then they've got to pay for it."

The House Finance Committee is scheduled to finalize its budget proposal today.
For irony factor, i will quote Ronald Reagan...
where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.
Kurk assures us he doesn't want to use the giant stick, just have it ready nearby,

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Patrick Degan »

Themightytom wrote:For irony factor, i will quote Ronald Reagan...
where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.
Republicans should be made to eat that quote every goddamn day. Have their own little tin god turned against them. Then watch them squirm when they try to simultaneously preserve and deny the hallowed legacy of St. Ronnie. And if any of them bring up Reagan's smashing of PATCO in defence, that should be turned against them and St. Ronnie as well. "So, the Gipper was actually lying when he spoke so glowingly of free unions and collective bargaining as the basis of freedom?" and "Since when did the GOP decide to imitate Soviet Russia?"
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Alphawolf55
Jedi Knight
Posts: 715
Joined: 2010-04-01 12:59am

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Alphawolf55 »

They would argue that it was different back then, that it was 30 years ago and that Unions weren't the monstrosity of liberal greed that attempts to bleed out hard working tax payers that they are now, and that while in the past we could afford the excess of unions because Reagan made this country so prosperous, with Obama's handling of the economy, we can't afford to keep them around anymore.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Patrick Degan »

Alphawolf55 wrote:They would argue that it was different back then, that it was 30 years ago and that Unions weren't the monstrosity of liberal greed that attempts to bleed out hard working tax payers that they are now, and that while in the past we could afford the excess of unions because Reagan made this country so prosperous, with Obama's handling of the economy, we can't afford to keep them around anymore.
That's rather the beauty of it: now you've got them having to commit verbal diarrhea trying to explain their position while you've got the pithy quote you can keep tossing back in their faces which either makes them look like hypocrites for contradicting their little tin god or their little tin god look hypocritical for contradicting himself. Either way, it turns the tables on their usual style of harangue.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by SirNitram »

Reagon Mythology is an interesting thing for me, at least, in how it's twisting facts. A whitewash is basic; but Reagan is being turned from an anti-nuke, enemy-combatant-trial, pro-union, compromiser into the mold criminals like Walker claim to come from.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Alphawolf55
Jedi Knight
Posts: 715
Joined: 2010-04-01 12:59am

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Someday I hope this becomes reality http://www.theonion.com/articles/embarr ... ing,19248/

yes I know it's old but still funny.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Simon_Jester »

SirNitram wrote:Reagon Mythology is an interesting thing for me, at least, in how it's twisting facts. A whitewash is basic; but Reagan is being turned from an anti-nuke, enemy-combatant-trial, pro-union, compromiser into the mold criminals like Walker claim to come from.
This is also, in my opinion, what makes the counter of invoking the mythologization as a counter to the current disgusting policies useful. As pointed out earlier, forcing a bunch of thieves to tap-dance and hem and haw about how they're not really stealing is a great way to keep them too busy to keep stealing.

Every attempt should be made to force cognitive dissonance on supporters of the far right- especially since many of these supporters are not nearly as far out as the people they vote for, or wouldn't be if they actually had to sit down and think clearly about what they were supporting. This is one of the reasons for the massively lopsided poll numbers on Walker in Wisconsin and the like: a lot of people who voted for him did have second thoughts when they saw what kind of man he is.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Themightytom »

Ideology War is a go in five, four, three two...


http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/2 ... shires-key

Priebus sought to convince attendees that the national party goes beyond any establishment identity to represent conservatives of all types. Members of the national committee believe they are not "in competition with the conservative movement, but we're an integral part of that movement," he said.

"We are one party with one goal: to put a Republican in the White House in 2012," Priebus said. "We need to come together as conservatives to achieve that goal."
"It is not time to get wobbly kneed. It is time for stiff spines," Kimball said. "We are fighting for the soul of our country, here, in Wisconsin, in Illinois, in Ohio."


http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/2 ... udget-cuts
The State Employees' Association expects hundreds of its members to attend, said spokesman Mike Barwell. The Professional Fire Fighters of New Hampshire said members will rally in opposition to a budget amendment that would allow public employers to unilaterally change wages, benefits and terms of employment after a contract expires.
Religious leaders have endorsed the rally, with both Bishop Gene Robinson of the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire and Bishop John McCormack of the Catholic Diocese of Manchester expected to speak, D'Allesandro said. The New Hampshire Council of Churches, which represents 10 denominations, is encouraging people to attend. Executive Director David Lamarre-Vincent said the budget proposal before the House surpassed the "worst fears" of the council.

"We're galvanized to take action and say to the House members, 'You can't possibly pass this in good conscience,' " Lamarre-Vincent said. "And to the Senate, 'You can't even begin to use this as a foundational document to begin a budget. You have to throw it away and start over again.' "

A small group of clergy, led by the pastor of the Community Church of Christ in Durham, delivered a letter yesterday to the office of House Speaker William O'Brien informing him that they intend to hold a prayer vigil at his office beginning this afternoon and lasting through the night until the House concludes its budget deliberations
http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/2 ... the-choirs
Kevin Smith, director of the conservative advocacy group Cornerstone Policy Research, believes the time to expect

more from faith-based organizations is now.

In a press release e-mailed to the Monitor last week, Smith said: "Too often (religious institutions) have abdicated their responsibility . . . to the federal, state and local governments. . . . With state and local services now being reduced . . . we are asking them to heed the call."
Think tanks vs clergy... and... GO!

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: New Hampshire gets bored and tries to be Wisconsin

Post by Themightytom »

Oh, I guess we're not as dramatic as Wisconsin.
http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/2 ... ears-house
The New Hampshire House voted yesterday to pass major anti-union legislation that labor advocates say could prevent public employees from bargaining collectively.

The measure would allow public employers to set wages and benefits for their employees without input from unions. The provision would only apply in the event that a prior contract expires before negotiators are able to agree to a new one.

"What they did today was total destruction, in our estimation, of almost 40 years of good labor-management relations," said Dave Lang, president of the state firefighters union. About 450 firefighters spent time at the State House yesterday in protest of the legislation, he said.

The measure was added last week by the House Finance Committee to a 146-page bill that accompanies the $10.2 billion budget set to be voted on today. Debate on the provision was spurred yesterday by a Democratic proposal to remove it from the bill. The motion failed in a 201-155 vote by the Republican-controlled House.

Rep. Neal Kurk, the Weare Republican who sponsored the change, said his goal is to pressure state employees into concessions. Kurk explained that, under current law, basic wages and benefits continue after a public employee contract expires.

Kurk said the House Finance Committee's budget includes $50 million in savings expected to be gleaned by renegotiating health benefits for state workers under the new collective bargaining rule. Unless the House passed his amendment, Kurk estimated the state would have to lay off 352 additional workers.

"Nobody likes to change these kinds of relationships. Nobody likes to do any of the other things that we have to do," Kurk said. "But it is the sensible part of a coherent plan to make the budget work."

Rep. Ben Baroody, a Manchester Democrat, said the measure should not have been tacked onto yesterday's bill but rather proposed as its own legislation, making it the subject of public hearings and studies by committees and subcommittees.

"This is a policy change - a policy change that should not come in after hours, during the budget process, when nobody's around," Baroody said. "This is wrong. This is not the way we do business."

After the vote, as public employees filed out of the House balcony, state AFL-CIO President Mark MacKenzie said it was "a sad day for workers, a sad day for the public sector."

"Public sector workers have now been put in a box," MacKenzie said. "They have really had their rights taken away from them in a way that is unprecedented in this state."

MacKenzie said he is hopeful the measure will be taken out of the bill in the Senate, where it is set to be transferred tomorrow. However, he said he has no guarantee from the Senate - which consists of 19 Republicans to five Democrats - that the provision will be killed.

Diana Lacey, president of the state employees union, said Kurk's assertion that the state could save $50 million by renegotiating health benefits for her union's employees was "using drama to try to push a position that he wants to push."

"They need a scapegoat, and they've chosen to make organized, public service workers the scapegoat," she said. "It's completely ridiculous. We care more about this state than they do."

Lacey said the Legislature's focus on reducing the strength of public employee unions is diverting attention from the creation of private sector jobs and improving the state's economy.

"All we're hearing from them is, 'People need to make less money, people need to have less benefits, people need to be happy with less,' " she said. " 'And if they won't do that, we'll lay them off.' "

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
Post Reply