Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flames

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
someone_else
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-02-24 05:32am

Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flames

Post by someone_else »

Article
Another one, with an image
Note to journalists: Please report that this research was presented at a meeting of the American Chemical Society

ANAHEIM, March 27, 2011 — A curtain of flame halts firefighters trying to rescue a family inside a burning home. One with a special backpack steps to the front, points a wand at the flame, and shoots a beam of electricity that opens a path through the flame for the others to pass and lead the family to safety.

Scientists today described a discovery that could underpin a new genre of fire-fighting devices, including sprinkler systems that suppress fires not with water, but with zaps of electric current, without soaking and irreparably damaging the contents of a home, business, or other structure. Reporting at the 241st National Meeting & Exposition of the American Chemical Society (ACS), Ludovico Cademartiri, Ph.D., and his colleagues in the group of George M. Whitesides, Ph.D., at Harvard University, picked up on a 200-year-old observation that electricity can affect the shape of flames, making flames bend, twist, turn, flicker, and even snuffing them out. However, precious little research had been done over the years on the phenomenon.

“Controlling fires is an enormously difficult challenge,” said Cademartiri, who reported on the research. “Our research has shown that by applying large electric fields we can suppress flames very rapidly. We’re very excited about the results of this relatively unexplored area of research.”

Firefighters currently use water, foam, powder and other substances to extinguish flames. The new technology could allow them to put out fires remotely — without delivering material to the flame — and suppress fires from a distance. The technology could also save water and avoid the use of fire-fighting materials that could potentially harm the environment, the scientists suggest.

In the new study, they connected a powerful electrical amplifier to a wand-like probe and used the device to shoot beams of electricity at an open flame more than a foot high. Almost instantly, the flame was snuffed out. Much to their fascination, it worked time and again.

The device consisted of a 600-watt amplifier, or about the same power as a high-end car stereo system. However, Cademartiri believes that a power source with only a tenth of this wattage could have similar flame-suppressing effect. That could be a boon to firefighters, since it would enable use of portable flame-tamer devices, which perhaps could be hand-carried or fit into a backpack.

But how does it work? Cademartiri acknowledged that the phenomenon is complex with several effects occurring simultaneously. Among these effects, it appears that carbon particles, or soot, generated in the flame are key for its response to electric fields. Soot particles can easily become charged. The charged particles respond to the electric field, affecting the stability of flames, he said.

“Combustion is first and foremost a chemical reaction – arguably one of the most important – but it’s been somewhat neglected by most of the chemical community,” said Cademartiri. “We’re trying to get a more complete picture of this very complex interaction.”

Cademartiri envisions that futuristic electrical devices based on the phenomenon could be fixed on the ceilings of buildings or ships, similar to stationary water sprinklers now in use. Alternatively, firefighters might carry the flame-tamer in the form of a backpack and distribute the electricity to fires using a handheld wand. Such a device could be used, for instance, to make a path for firefighters to enter a fire or create an escape path for people to exit, he said.

The system shows particular promise for fighting fires in enclosed quarters, such as armored trucks, planes, and submarines. Large forest fires, which spread over much larger areas, are not as suitable for the technique, he noted.

Cademartiri also reported how he and his colleagues found that electrical waves can control the heat and distribution of flames. As a result, the technology could potentially improve the efficiency of a wide variety of technologies that involve controlled combustion, including automobile engines, power plants, and welding and cutting torches, he said.

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (U.S. Department of Defense) and the U.S. Department of Energy funded this study.

###

The American Chemical Society is a nonprofit organization chartered by the U.S. Congress. With more than 163,000 members, ACS is the world’s largest scientific society and a global leader in providing access to chemistry-related research through its multiple databases, peer-reviewed journals and scientific conferences. Its main offices are in Washington, D.C., and Columbus, Ohio.
Another article, telling something more
Since the time humans first began to control fire around 400,000 years ago we have had just a few simple tools to douse the flames.

Now some Harvard University chemists believe they have found a way to bring fire suppression into the digital age by controlling flames with electricity.

During a series of experiments to study the chemical nature of fire, scientists were surprised to learn that by applying an electrical field to a burning flame it easily went out. All they needed to do is wave a wand-like, electrified metal wire near the flame.
'What did I do wrong?'

"As a scientist you find it fascinating, but you have to control your emotions and ask how nature is trying to deceive you," Ludovico Cademartiri recalled about the experiment. "I was thinking, 'What is wrong with this experiment? What did I do wrong'"

As it turns out, he and other chemists in the lab of Harvard chemist George Whitesides had done nothing wrong.

Nearly all previous study of flames and electric fields involved those generated by direct current, or DC, instead of alternating current.

"What we discovered is that by applying an oscillation field, AC voltage, the effects are completely different," Cademartiri said. He reported the findings Sunday at the national meeting of the American Chemical Society.

In their experiments the researchers used a 600-watt power source — about the same as a modest home-theater stereo — to create an electric field near flames as large as 18 inches tall.

They found the field created an organized "flow" of charged particles inside the flame, and that the flame was literally pushed away from the burner and put out.

It's too early to say how well the effect will scale to larger flames. Cademartiri said he and his colleagues have begun collaborating with the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., which has facilities devoted to the study of fire.

"I'm very optimistic that something very relevant is going to come out of this new capability," he said.
More efficient energy?

The most obvious effect is fire suppression. But there are other applications as well. The world still derives about 90 percent of its energy from burning coal, natural gas and other products.

The potential to better control the internal flow of combustion could lead to more efficient energy production, among other benefits.

"Our hypothesis was that if we could find any new way to control flames in a novel way, we have a real chance to make a real big impact," Cademartiri said. "This is our hope."
Why do I feel the urge to sing Ghostbuster's Theme? :mrgreen:

Anyway, I'd love to find the paper for this research, but Google is saying "nono".
Anyone can help?
I'm nobody. Nobody at all. But the secrets of the universe don't mind. They reveal themselves to nobodies who care.
--
Stereotypical spacecraft are pressurized.
Less realistic spacecraft are pressurized to hold breathing atmosphere.
Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo

--
Good art has function as well as form. I hesitate to spend more than $50 on decorations of any kind unless they can be used to pummel an intruder into submission. -Sriad
User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 10405
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: CIC, Battlestar Temeraire

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I can't help with finding the paper, but this sounds really awesome. Perhaps those "fire dampening fields" in sci-fi aren't so ludicrous after all. Sweet.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7517
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Zaune »

Outside a few specialised applications like firefighting on submarines or the ISS, I'm not entirely certain what problem this is going to solve. I'm not seeing anything in that article that suggests benefits in cost, weight or efficiency versus existing methods.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
someone_else
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-02-24 05:32am

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by someone_else »

have you read this?
second article wrote:The potential to better control the internal flow of combustion could lead to more efficient energy production, among other benefits.
I'm nobody. Nobody at all. But the secrets of the universe don't mind. They reveal themselves to nobodies who care.
--
Stereotypical spacecraft are pressurized.
Less realistic spacecraft are pressurized to hold breathing atmosphere.
Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo

--
Good art has function as well as form. I hesitate to spend more than $50 on decorations of any kind unless they can be used to pummel an intruder into submission. -Sriad
Lord of the Abyss
Village Idiot
Posts: 4046
Joined: 2005-06-15 12:21am
Location: The Abyss

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Firefighting after a major disaster when the the water mains aren't working could benefit perhaps. You could probably power the things longer from a truck than you can supply water from one.
Zaune wrote:Outside a few specialised applications like firefighting on submarines or the ISS, I'm not entirely certain what problem this is going to solve. I'm not seeing anything in that article that suggests benefits in cost, weight or efficiency versus existing methods.
For one, there's the potential to "suppress fires not with water, but with zaps of electric current, without soaking and irreparably damaging the contents of a home, business, or other structure."
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Patrick Degan »

Zaune wrote:Outside a few specialised applications like firefighting on submarines or the ISS, I'm not entirely certain what problem this is going to solve. I'm not seeing anything in that article that suggests benefits in cost, weight or efficiency versus existing methods.
An office not having to replace several thousand dollars worth of computers, scanners, printers and fax machines, not to mention having to reconstruct information on water-damaged paper files, is one tangible benefit.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22459
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Mr Bean »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Zaune wrote:Outside a few specialised applications like firefighting on submarines or the ISS, I'm not entirely certain what problem this is going to solve. I'm not seeing anything in that article that suggests benefits in cost, weight or efficiency versus existing methods.
An office not having to replace several thousand dollars worth of computers, scanners, printers and fax machines, not to mention having to reconstruct information on water-damaged paper files, is one tangible benefit.
Read what the plan is again
Suppressing fire via strong electrical fields.
Now why would that be any less lethal to computers, scanners, printers and fax machines then a bunch of water? Of your listed examples only the paper files would be any less destroyed via using water. Never mind you can dunk a computer in a tank of water and while It's likely to be destroyed, the drives and the like will be quite recoverable via professional data recovery service. But EM field? It could turn out to be harmless but I'd imagine it would prevent even data recovery techniques from being that effective.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7517
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Zaune »

someone_else wrote:have you read this?
second article wrote:The potential to better control the internal flow of combustion could lead to more efficient energy production, among other benefits.
Missed that on my first read-through, but whilst I don't know enough to completely dismiss the claim, I think it's premature to make it when we're still deciphering the fine detail of the physics behind the phenomenon. We don't know if it will scale up or down yet either, or what the limit of its range will be.
Patrick Degan wrote:An office not having to replace several thousand dollars worth of computers, scanners, printers and fax machines, not to mention having to reconstruct information on water-damaged paper files, is one tangible benefit.
CO2 or dry powder extinguishers solve that problem already, and if the fire's progressed to the point where those are no longer adequate then water damage is probably the least of your problems.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Patrick Degan »

Mr Bean wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Zaune wrote:Outside a few specialised applications like firefighting on submarines or the ISS, I'm not entirely certain what problem this is going to solve. I'm not seeing anything in that article that suggests benefits in cost, weight or efficiency versus existing methods.
An office not having to replace several thousand dollars worth of computers, scanners, printers and fax machines, not to mention having to reconstruct information on water-damaged paper files, is one tangible benefit.
Read what the plan is again
Suppressing fire via strong electrical fields.
Now why would that be any less lethal to computers, scanners, printers and fax machines then a bunch of water? Of your listed examples only the paper files would be any less destroyed via using water. Never mind you can dunk a computer in a tank of water and while It's likely to be destroyed, the drives and the like will be quite recoverable via professional data recovery service. But EM field? It could turn out to be harmless but I'd imagine it would prevent even data recovery techniques from being that effective.
The device being described doesn't seem to be putting out a pulse stronger than that generated by any commercial degaussing coil and it seems a portable unit at one-tenth that power level is feasible. Cademartiri is talking about mounting "flame tamer" transmitters in commercial office spaces; a plan that would not be feasible at all if the damage potential to office electronics was as great as you seem to be suggesting.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Serafina »

High-value libraries would likely benefit. Books take damage from both water and CO2/dry powder fire extinguishers, but an EM-field wouldn't do much to them.
The same goes for museums - they might loose their electronic displays, but those are much easier to replace than their relics and art.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22459
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Mr Bean »

Patrick Degan wrote:
The device being described doesn't seem to be putting out a pulse stronger than that generated by any commercial degaussing coil and it seems a portable unit at one-tenth that power level is feasible. Cademartiri is talking about mounting "flame tamer" transmitters in commercial office spaces; a plan that would not be feasible at all if the damage potential to office electronics was as great as you seem to be suggesting.
Talking about and have demonstrated are two different things. Ten years in the computer field have taught me one key lesson is that stray electricity and computers do not mix. The amount you need to fry most components is tiny. Unless the amount of voltage and current is even more tiny he can talk about it all he wants, until he can demonstrate it in laboratory conditions I consider his claims on par with anyone else who speculates to the press without demonstrations first.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Korvan
Jedi Master
Posts: 1255
Joined: 2002-11-05 03:12pm
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Korvan »

I guess it would not have much effect on a large established fire, since it only disrupts the flame and does not eliminate on of the heat, fuel, air triad. Once the field was removed, the ambient heat of the surrounding fire would reignite it. Now, I suppose you could suppress the entire area for long enough for the heat to disapate enough so temperatures fall below ignition temps, but that would require a very large device and several hours at least.

But, for disrupting fires just as they start as a replacement for automated sprinklers sounds like a great idea. The device is only generating an electric field, not shooting lightning around the room, and any electronic device enclosed in a properly grounded metal enclosure should remain unaffected.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Patrick Degan »

Mr Bean wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
The device being described doesn't seem to be putting out a pulse stronger than that generated by any commercial degaussing coil and it seems a portable unit at one-tenth that power level is feasible. Cademartiri is talking about mounting "flame tamer" transmitters in commercial office spaces; a plan that would not be feasible at all if the damage potential to office electronics was as great as you seem to be suggesting.
Talking about and have demonstrated are two different things. Ten years in the computer field have taught me one key lesson is that stray electricity and computers do not mix. The amount you need to fry most components is tiny. Unless the amount of voltage and current is even more tiny he can talk about it all he wants, until he can demonstrate it in laboratory conditions I consider his claims on par with anyone else who speculates to the press without demonstrations first.
Without knowing the technical details of the "flame tamer", I cannot address the issue adequately.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22459
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Mr Bean »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Without knowing the technical details of the "flame tamer", I cannot address the issue adequately.
Thus my point, without knowing the technical details of this device anything on our part is wild speculation either for or against.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Sarevok »

How do RAM or non volatile memory like SSDs behave under strong electric fields ?
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22459
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Mr Bean »

Sarevok wrote:How do RAM or non volatile memory like SSDs behave under strong electric fields ?
That depends entirely on which type your talking about. Something like a flash drive is pretty durable , while an SSD's controller card is just as vulnerable as a hard drives to even small amounts of stray current. Meanwhile most Ram is pretty durable depending on what type your talking about. Old RAMBUS ram for example was junk pretty easy while old PC-100 ram could normally be salvage even from computers with fire damage or had been dropped in the river.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by Sarevok »

I still don't think many companies will want their computers with valuable data under a constant electric field. If this was a system that only came online during emergencies then it would be acceptable. But it seems to require being constantly active - the idea is to suppress flames before the spark grows. And one of the main sources of flames is electrical. You would need these "flame suppressors" wherever you have any significant equipment like computers.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
someone_else
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-02-24 05:32am

Re: Electrical gun could provide new way to extinguish flame

Post by someone_else »

Zaune wrote:Missed that on my first read-through, but whilst I don't know enough to completely dismiss the claim, I think it's premature to make it when we're still deciphering the fine detail of the physics behind the phenomenon. We don't know if it will scale up or down yet either, or what the limit of its range will be.
Well, this experiment was part of a research about understanding what is going on during chemical combustion. It's likely at least the knowledge gained at the end will have some use in the field of optimizing efficiency of fossil-burners (and industrial processes that rely on combustion).

And a concert of Singing Tesla coils and Flames Dancing To the Music would be awesome. :mrgreen:

As an extinguisher, I think this would be useful to protect firefighters and allow them to move around (and carry people out) without being roasted by the flames (yes, sometimes even their gear isn't enough), and to help extinguish burning refineries and the like with a big enough field (it keeps the huge flames at bay while firefighters pull one of their other tricks on the actually burning stuff).

Computers will very likely suffer but that's somewhat irrelevant. Only morons don't do backups of important data very regularly (and store them somewhere else) and in theory they should have insurances.
I'm nobody. Nobody at all. But the secrets of the universe don't mind. They reveal themselves to nobodies who care.
--
Stereotypical spacecraft are pressurized.
Less realistic spacecraft are pressurized to hold breathing atmosphere.
Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo

--
Good art has function as well as form. I hesitate to spend more than $50 on decorations of any kind unless they can be used to pummel an intruder into submission. -Sriad
Post Reply