Ground Battle: SW Imperial Army vs BattleTech RCT

[Balrog]

In an area the size of Delaware, two forces meet. At one end of the battlefield is an Imperial Army Assault Battlegroup: 1 armor, 1 assault & 2 line regiments. At the other is a reinforced Federated Suns Regimental Combat Team: 1 Battlemech, 3 armor, 5 infantry regiments, 1 artillery battalion, 2 Aerospace wings. They are given time to prepare within their area a base of operations for their supplies, command structures and airfield. No other base defenses and enough supplies to last a week of heavy fighting. The battlefield is a temperate deciduous forest zone: rolling plains broken by forests and hills of various sizes/densities, along with river systems with most low enough for vehicles to cross.

Their objective is to destroy each other. The Imperials have their superior technology, the Suns have superior numbers including an air force. Who will be victorious?

Force Breakdown
(numbers might be slightly off from wikis: the ISB OOB had a number of mistakes, and each BattleTech regiment is reinforced with an extra company along with command elements. Only those command elements that are suppose to be fighting are counted)
Assault Battlegroup
6,327 army troopers, 420 combat repulsorlifts, 169 tanks/walkers, 48 speeder bikes, 32 AT-STs
1st Armor Regiment: 17 AT-ATs, 26 S-1 Firehawkes, 83 TX-130Ts, 180 combat repulsorlifts, 528 troopers
1st Assault Regiment: 17 A5 Juggernauts, 26 S-1 Firehawkes, 80 combat repulsorlifts, 1748 army troopers
1st Line Regiment: 80 combat repulsorlifts, 2,048 army troopers, 8 speeder bikes, 32 AT-STs
2nd Line Regiment: 80 combat repulsorlifts, 2048 army troopers, 40 speeder bikes

Regimental Combat Team
172 BattleMechs, 624 tanks 102 APCs, 170 VTOLs, 48 artillery, 9520 infantry
1st BattleMech Regiment: 172 BattleMechs
*Command Company: 3 each Atlas, Battlemaster, Marauder II, JagerMech
*Heavy Battalion: 4 each Atlas, Battlemaster, Marauder II, Jagermech, Axman, Salamander, Hammerhands, Zeus, Warhammer, Bloodasp
*Medium Battalion: 4 each Enforcer, Griffin, Shadowhawk, Dervisher, Hellspawn, Phoenix Hawk, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Sentry, Watchman[/list]
*Medium Battalion: 4 each Enforcer, Griffin, Shadowhawk, Dervisher, Hellspawn, Phoenix Hawk, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Sentry, Watchman
*Light Battalion: 5 each Valkyrie, Javalin, Locust, Stinger, Wasp, Cougar, Panther, Commando
Heavy Armor Regiment: 12 Devastators, 36 Rommels, 72 Pattons, 36 Pilums
Medium Armor Regiment: 12 Von Luckners, 108 Vedette Sians, 36 Hunters
Hover Armor Regiment: 48 Condors, 36 Scimitars, 72 Saracens
1st Infantry Regiment: 1904 infantry
2nd Infantry Regiment: 1904 infantry
1st Mech. Infantry Regiment: 1904 infantry, 34 Heavy Tracked APCs
2nd Mech Infantry Regiment: 1904 infantry, 68 Maxim Hover APCs
1st Jump Infantry Regiment: 1904 jump infantry, 34 Karnov VTOLs, 136 Ripper VTOLs
Artillery Battalion: 24 Long Toms, 12 Thumpers, 12 Snipers
Regimental AeroSpace Wing: 20 Corsairs
Independant AeroSpace Wing: 10 Stukas, 10 Sparrowhawks

[Batman]

Um-you are aware that BattleTech forces would by and large get their asses handed to them by anything more advanced than and possibly including WW2 opponents, right?

[Tanasinn]

TT ranges, Batman, are not canon but are claimed in rule text to be specifically contrived to make gameplay possible.

Whether or not you buy this excuse is one thing, but the fact of the matter is that the much-bitched-about range idiocy of Battletech doesn't extend to the "real" universe.

[Batman]

Does that mean we finally have a 'real' universe? Because the entirety of the novels up to Endgame and all the rule books I've seen say they get eaten by the WW2 Wehrmacht, their drop ships are made of paper and carry armour massing less than a coat of paint on something that size would, and they use solar sails to recharge their jump drives-um, because.

[Balrog]

Even the RPG material gives infantry support weapons greater range than some of the vehicular weapons per game mechanics ranges. The older novels might have stuck to the game values, but I'm pretty sure there are some examples where they have a more reasonable range, along with some game rules that suggest as much too (i.e. shooting at aerospace fighters).

[Batman]

The whole original novel run (Thunder Rift through Endgame) had them sticking with the 'gets eaten by the real world' range/accuracy/firepower figures for Mechs. If there is, finally, an official canon policy for BT, and the more recent material (RPG or novel) overrides what we know and shows BT to be not be pathetic, then so be it. Until then, BT on the ground gets their asses handed to them by any modern day first world military.

[Balrog]

Just took a quick look through Painrack's Battletech thread and found this. Now if a freakin' laser rifle can take a guy's head off at one and a half kilometers, larger vehicular versions with better targeting abilities sure as shit ought to as well. Never mind Aerospace fighters mounting the exact same weapons but having a greater range with them, even before the new stuff came out. It's the same reason an E-Web by all rights should have a maximum range far greater than its piddly 500 meters.

While I don't think they've come out with a canon policy, they have made explicit in the latest rulebooks how the ingame ranges are not "true" ranges. That in my mind is good enough.

[Sea Skimmer]

Even if they had realistic ranges, that wouldn’t necessarily change all that much about being raped by a force from WW2. A black powder siege gun from 1871 for example could lob a shell about 7,000 meters which is competitive with a modern tank gun in range terms… but such a shell is not going to stop tanks with all that much reliability! It could blow off a track or damage the engine deck but that's about it.

Stepping away from the shit evidence, one would think a Battletech force has to be at least equal to 1980s technology if not necessarily 1980s design standards to not be completely retarded or intentionally technologically regressive, but some sci fi simply is completely retarded and these are mecha builders!

[Nephtys]

Are we going to get into a thread again where somehow people who really like WW2 trivia try to argue that a .50 caliber machine gun on a mech actually only fires 60 yards? Even more game mechanics bullshit, where there's around a 2 percent chance for a 9mm handgun to blow up an 100 ton tank?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

The absurdities are just too immense. Larger guns having shorter ranges- that isn't even WWII, the way battletech autocannon scale internally is complete gibberish any time after the RML era. Look at the mass budgets, too; a common or garden Royal Ordnance 25lbr mk 1, a WWII gun, weighs 3,600lb with carriage- less than half an AC2. Range is thirteen thousand four hundred yards, nominal. An actual naval gun that weighs about as much as an AC20 is supposed to, the USN 6"/47 mk 16 (including the recoil slide), throws a 130lb shell to 26,118 yards. Figures from Navweaps. Any weapon at the weights they're talking about should be an artillery piece.

Oh, and I assume that you have realised that the design process doesn't account for the musculature of the mech? Follow it through, structure, armour, powerplant, gyro (directly related to the mass of the engine, what? Are we actually looking at gyroscopic effect to keep mechs upright?)- and, um. Right. Moving on...

Ablative armour? Stone might behave like that, ish- metal doesn't, well metal fatigue does but if that's the explanation... Missiles- reloadable rocket pods? The box art is obviously wrong, then, because unless they have secret teleporters, the autoloading mechanism for ganged launch tubes is going to be a hell of a lot bulkier than seen.
In fact, one-shot pods are actually larger and heavier than loading launchers, which...whuh?

The coat-of-paint thin space armour and the energetically ridiculous drives are the result of the game designers not knowing what they were talking about, or not caring. There really is no other completely satisfactory explanation than "didn't do the math", and the retcon of 'real' ranges- in the BattleTechnology magazine, where they do describe the initial game ranges as effective range, to which the weapon is normally accurate- and longer actual ballistic range, is itself...oh, dear.

Extreme range is simply given as 5x normal list long range for most weapon types. Maximum range is line of sight for laser and particle weapons, 1,5x extreme range for autocannon.

I play the game, although I gave up on the backstory after 3058 really, but I reckon the only way to make it stand up in vs. is to interpret so generously that it could probably be thrown out for cheating. It's just a horrible gibberish cartoon physics mess.


Oh, and back to the OP. Too much of even a generously interpreted BT RCT moves too slowly- and I would be very surprised if the Imperials didn't have absolute sensor superiority. Granted the Imperial force is quickly going to become an operation of two halves, the slow moving walkers and the fast moving repulsors, but that divides very nicely into hammer and anvil. Speed of manoeuvre and reach and concentration of fire are all with the Imperials, and a good armour commander could run the RCT to death, playing mongol archer- advance, engage with fire, shatter a portion of the army, manoeuvre clear, outpace, engage another unsupported element, splat, repeat.

Eventually the RCT is going to have to play turtle, at which point the slow walkers get their chance to plod up and crack shells. Only the aerospace wing may be a problem, and there are enough small vehicle and crew-served autoblasters to make life interesting and brief for them.

[Vehrec]

Balrog-shouldn't both sides have an engineering batalion if they're preparing an airfield and supply base, or do these skilled fortification teams magically disappear once the basics are in place?

ECR-supposedly, the gyro is needed to keep the whole thing dynamically balanced while multiple tons of armor are being shot off it, while at the same time it is running with a sixty degree torso twist to fire it's massive rapid fire snub-gun. But to be honest, I'm not sure how the hell that's supposed to work-gyros might provide stabilizing inertia, but that would be quite minor compared to the inertia of the mech itself.

[PainRack]

Um-you are aware that BattleTech forces would by and large get their asses handed to them by anything more advanced than and possibly including WW2 opponents, right?

You know Bats, it would be NICE if you actually acknowledge other posters and stop reiterating this tripe from 2006. Seriously. Even before FanPro take-over, you have been rebutted on this point over, and over, and over, and over again.

Seriously. Will you just give it up and stop sniping at Btech with the WW2 shtick?

2006 was the last time you should had brought up this angle when FanPro published its canon guide. EVEN if Nepthys or others were to concede your published ranges in novels vs fluff from omniscent narrator, you would STILL have to acknowledge the aerotech ranges and more importantly, my firepower/armour/range bits that has been repeated ad nauseaum to you.

What the fuck is wrong with you? If I was to continously make an errorneous claim such as I did back in 2005 regarding Wh40k lasguns, I would had been banned by now. And here you are, doing this over, and over again.

Or is your jinks tolerated purely because the Btech community here is much smaller than any other faction?

[PainRack]

Balrog-shouldn't both sides have an engineering batalion if they're preparing an airfield and supply base, or do these skilled fortification teams magically disappear once the basics are in place?

ECR-supposedly, the gyro is needed to keep the whole thing dynamically balanced while multiple tons of armor are being shot off it, while at the same time it is running with a sixty degree torso twist to fire it's massive rapid fire snub-gun. But to be honest, I'm not sure how the hell that's supposed to work-gyros might provide stabilizing inertia, but that would be quite minor compared to the inertia of the mech itself.

I think the latest technical guide simply overwrote the "provide stabilising inertia" and instead says the gyro helps to stabilise the mech. Not too sure, my HD containing it is fragged at the moment. Perhaps Nephtys could help by providing the relevant quote.

Even if they had realistic ranges, that wouldn’t necessarily change all that much about being raped by a force from WW2. A black powder siege gun from 1871 for example could lob a shell about 7,000 meters which is competitive with a modern tank gun in range terms… but such a shell is not going to stop tanks with all that much reliability! It could blow off a track or damage the engine deck but that's about it.

Stepping away from the shit evidence, one would think a Battletech force has to be at least equal to 1980s technology if not necessarily 1980s design standards to not be completely retarded or intentionally technologically regressive, but some sci fi simply is completely retarded and these are mecha builders!

And no it doesn't.
Battletech basic laser weaponery is 6km long, and their weapons has been demonstrated to be used at more than 15km long in space. The conversion rules allows this to be applied to autocannon weaponery, but that's debatable for an atmospheric combat at the moment. more importantly, said autocannons have the speed and capability to intercept low flying aerospace targets and has DONE so. Indeed, they have shown the capability to engage dropships on low level runs, giving it a bare minium of several kilometer range.
So, that's range.

I can conclusively demonstrate that Battlemech armour is "shielded" and armour ablated is not linear to kinetic energy. I can post evidence where gauss rifles are not only mach 2.2, but has sufficient kinetic energy to dig meter long trenches through concrete tarmac, a substance that MUST be strong enough to withstand the impact of a landing dropship.

Depending on whether you want to use FanPro stuff or mine, autocannons and missiles are a mixed bag. FanPro is of the argument that the classic battle cannons of our time deals middling damage to Battletech armour, and the Mackie 105mm autocannon(of unknown velocity) could be stopped cold by the Mackie Armor(TRO 3075 re autocannon and Star League Handbook re Mackie). If we're using mine, my argument is that missiles are spray and pray, searching for weak spots, something that FanPro hasn't outright disproved. Similarly, autocannons became heavily specialised in the Btech universe so as to counteract newer armour techniques.

I can easily point out that from the SL handbook, heat seeking anti-tank weapons from the USA were capable of one shot kills against the CAAN hovertanks and other armoured vehicles. The use of heat-seekers and etc mean this isn't the bazooka and is most likely the Javelin, as the US and other nations were subsumed into the Western Alliance post Second Soviet Civil War. We can compare this to a VTOL cannon and missile attacks and show similar lethality in House Steiner Sourcebook. YET, a single company of mechs were literally invulnerable to contemporary weapons, be it the Mackie or the Kuritian tank regiment facing off against House Steiner first battlemechs. The use of massed artillery took down one mech, so, WW2 arty guns probably will have mission kill capability. But for all purposes, battlemech armour is at least several generations AHEAD of contemporary armour. And this ignores the aspect of ablative armour.

So, that's a quick talk about comparative armour.

A Battlemech can fire its large laser approximately every ten second(rapid firing weapons like pulses lasers could be fired every five depending on which variant of the rules you're using). Each laser must be capable of melting off half a ton of mech armour, which is descripted as crystal aligned steel with exotics. I have no access to knowledge on how modern tank armour reacts against thermal damage, but I suspect it isn't enough to prevent a single shot from causing a mission kill, especially if directed against tracks and other components.

Again, autocannons are a wash. However, its IS possible to say that the canon fluff, both old and new argue that they're ultrasonic rounds being fired. Some of the later fluff is arguing for hypersonic, but the older compendium sets a much lower speed which correspond to a more plausible damage profile. LRMs are a mixed bag. The Btech forum is arguing for huge ass, exotic explosive, but my personal interpretation is low HE impactors. Its just that said impactors are travelling at Mach 2 at LEAST. A tiny HE component perhaps, but more than sufficient to take out soft skinned vehicles. Or even WW2 tanks, given that AT rifles could do so.

So, that's firepower.

And frankly, I know Bats has seen all of this before, has seen its evolution EVER since 2 years after this forum began its existence when i first presented all of this to him. The only difference is that the later canon fluff upped the firepower and range quota by arguing for "board game vs universe" as well as significantly increasing the firepower and hence armour by increasing ballistic speeds. So, anyone else gets a pass if they request evidence, but Bats can suck my balls.

[Imperial Overlord]

What is the obsession with Battletech Table top ranges? No one has the issue with 40K, which also limited table top ranges for game play reasons. Now Btech is a fairly low powered sci-fi universe with a construction system that leads to ludicrously thin armour when you do the math, but the harping on range really mystifies me.

[PainRack]

To actually answer the OP, may I point out that AT AT walkers has withstood landspeeder guns, which are probably on an order of magnitude more powerful than mech laser weapons.

Not to mention shrug off ground defences and the like.

Juggernauts are also capable of taking down shielded starfighters and that means kiloton level firepower at least.

While combined fire may take down the lighter tanks and other elements, you're still talking of a huge massacre.

[PainRack]

What is the obsession with Battletech Table top ranges? No one has the issue with 40K, which also limited table top ranges for game play reasons. Now Btech is a fairly low powered sci-fi universe with a construction system that leads to ludicrously thin armour when you do the math, but the harping on range really mystifies me.

Not to mention that everybody harps on supposedly "weak" capabilities and ignore the fact that they're outliers. It would be equivalent to people arguing that Genestealers,Patriachs,Chaos Space Marines and Hive Tyrants are weak meelee opponentz because Cain could fight them one on one. Indeed, he could even PARRY their strikes unassisted.

Then there's the nitpicking of Btech canon capabilities, saying its impossible. Yet, nobody seems to have problems with Luke and co surviving the sharpnel/vapourisation blasts seen in the Death Star, despite extremely close proximity hits and smoke clouds. Nobody has problems with how Cain and co could survive vapourisation of ice in Caves of Ice.


I'm sorry if I sound pissed, but Bats really pissed me off. For god sake, it has been literally YEARS. God knows how many threads later, and I STILL stumbling into a battletech thread on this forum and having to respond to his WW2 sthick and Btech has short range, fuck canon fluff.

[Balrog]

Balrog-shouldn't both sides have an engineering batalion if they're preparing an airfield and supply base, or do these skilled fortification teams magically disappear once the basics are in place?

The engineers retreat out of the battlefield after setting everything up; they get to play patty-cake with the REMFs while everyone else fights.

Oh, and back to the OP. Too much of even a generously interpreted BT RCT moves too slowly- and I would be very surprised if the Imperials didn't have absolute sensor superiority. Granted the Imperial force is quickly going to become an operation of two halves, the slow moving walkers and the fast moving repulsors, but that divides very nicely into hammer and anvil. Speed of manoeuvre and reach and concentration of fire are all with the Imperials, and a good armour commander could run the RCT to death, playing mongol archer- advance, engage with fire, shatter a portion of the army, manoeuvre clear, outpace, engage another unsupported element, splat, repeat.

Eventually the RCT is going to have to play turtle, at which point the slow walkers get their chance to plod up and crack shells. Only the aerospace wing may be a problem, and there are enough small vehicle and crew-served autoblasters to make life interesting and brief for them.

*puts on pointy Devil's Advocate hat*
The Imperial force has a mobility edge, but in terms of pure speed the RCT isn't that far behind. Only the Firehawkes have a ludicrous max speed, but unless you send them out unsupported they'll have to operate at a slower pace so that their support can keep up.

Were I the RCT general, first I would try to destroy their recon capability as much as possible. The scout walkers in particular can be chased down and destroyed by my faster ground forces, though the speeder bikes would require the VTOLs unless they could be caught in an ambush. At the same time, launch airstrikes on their base and try to destroy as many supplies as possible. If successful, the Imperials would hopefully be forced into committing to a stand-up fight early rather than endless hit-and-runs that sap my strength. When the Imperials do attack, the plan would depend on how successful I've been thus far. If their recon capabilities are sufficiently diminished and they can't tell where exactly my forces are, I'd try to draw in their fast tanks into overextending themselves by chasing an "easy target", then cut them off and bring overwhelming firepower to destroy them. Otherwise, the objective would be to try and take out the heavy walkers with more airstrikes and other fast attack elements, hopefully while their fast attack group is already engaged with my forces.

To actually answer the OP, may I point out that AT AT walkers has withstood landspeeder guns, which are probably on an order of magnitude more powerful than mech laser weapons.

Not to mention shrug off ground defences and the like.

Juggernauts are also capable of taking down shielded starfighters and that means kiloton level firepower at least.

While combined fire may take down the lighter tanks and other elements, you're still talking of a huge massacre.

Are landspeeder guns more powerful though? AFAIK battlemech lasers are around megajoules each, and I don't think I've seen anything that says the shots the ATs shrugged off at Hoth were more powerful. And when have Juggernauts taken down starfighters?

But yeah, that's why they would have to be hit by the air force, probably repeatedly.

[PainRack]

Are landspeeder guns more powerful though? AFAIK battlemech lasers are around megajoules each, and I don't think I've seen anything that says the shots the ATs shrugged off at Hoth were more powerful. And when have Juggernauts taken down starfighters?

But yeah, that's why they would have to be hit by the air force, probably repeatedly.

heh. I ditched literally all of my star wars references yonks ago.

IIRC, Juggernauts were used against X-wings and were a credible threat in the Rogue Squadron book, especially in a trench run conducted by Wedge Antilles.
Regarding landspeeders, I honestly can't say why. I recall it was due to comparison with land based defences and the like but I can't recall which EG it came from.

[Serafina]

What is the obsession with Battletech Table top ranges? No one has the issue with 40K, which also limited table top ranges for game play reasons. Now Btech is a fairly low powered sci-fi universe with a construction system that leads to ludicrously thin armour when you do the math, but the harping on range really mystifies me.

It's mostly because
-the ranges were mostly kept in the videogames. There are of course gameplay and technological considerations, but the ranges were still ludicrously low in some cases.
-the ranges were kept in many books. Those do NOT have any of those excuses, and simply stated that this is the way the BT-universe was envisioned. This may have been retconned, but i have no familiarity with newer BT-books.
-Some things such as arena-matches and Clan-duels make more sense with such short ranges.

None of this is really the case with 40K - the tabletop-fluff alone gives realistic ranges and so do the books.

[PainRack]

It's mostly because
-the ranges were mostly kept in the videogames. There are of course gameplay and technological considerations, but the ranges were still ludicrously low in some cases.
-the ranges were kept in many books. Those do NOT have any of those excuses, and simply stated that this is the way the BT-universe was envisioned. This may have been retconned, but i have no familiarity with newer BT-books.
-Some things such as arena-matches and Clan-duels make more sense with such short ranges.

None of this is really the case with 40K - the tabletop-fluff alone gives realistic ranges and so do the books.

Here's the thing.
The videogames used extended range rules. Unless you're referring to Mechwarrior, which I didn't play.

The ranges were kept in the books........... but also had extended ranges. Including firing across rivers in Jade Falcon trilogy, Somerset Strikers 2.1 kilometers, Star Lord 450m SRM, Machine Guns having an longer range than SRMs, pulse lasers being able to reach and hit targets at "medium" range...


The real kicker of course is that the weapon ranges are short range....... only against Battlemech and other ground units.

I have already conclusively shown that mech weapons can and DO engage at longer ranges against infantry targets, albeit, I can't show that regarding buildings and forts. I have shown that mech weapons can engage at kilometers ranges. I have even suggested a working model on why this is so.

So WHY THE FUCK IS EVERYONE STLIL ASSUMING THE RANGE IS THAT SHORT?

Again. Sea Skimmer? He gets a pass. I know he was around when I started spouting this, but he didn't continue harping on Mech has short range and can't fight WW2 opponents for 7 fucking years. That's how long it has been Serafina.

This tabletop range nonsense has been going on, and spouted by the very same people, who acknowledged the rebuttal and has not given a counter-rebuttal other than "Battletech is nonsensical physics", this when the whole tank vs mecha crowd has been saying that for almost a decade now(give it 2 more years) is absurd.

7 FUCKING YEARS. And that's IGNORING the early thread regarding this when the tank vs mech debate first began in 2003.
Seriously. If it was anyone else other than Bats who had said this, who was involved in the very first fucking rebuttal, it would had been fine and dandy. How many times must Nephtys and myself repeatedly bring up the same old data and rebut Batman again? In 2005, we settled this whole "novel universe vs Techmanual" defence. Bats essentially conceded because even if one rejected Techmanual, my older entries is more than sufficient to rebut his argument.

I won't deign to speak for Overlord, but I do know he was involved in some of those threads and did debate this whole range bit against Bats. For fuck sake. This should had been decisively resolved 5 years ago, yet, every year when a new Btech thread occurs, we see Bats doing this same whole range shmuck again.
Or WW2 debate AGAIN.

Maybe I'm just pissed because I been trolling a YEC for the past two months or so but fuck! This is annoying. Just WHAT would it take to make Bats shut up about this thing?

[Serafina]

PainRack, i did only try to explain WHY so many people assumed short weapon ranges. Because frankly, that's what many sources told us.
I'm not agreeing with that sentiment nor am i arguing that it makes any sense.


Now for an actual argument i'd like to put forward:
Battletech-armor seems to be heavily ablative in it's nature. I got that sentiment from the game material i know and from the books i've read: Mech armor is slowly whittled down in every case. There are apparently no weapons that are designed to penetrate armor in a single shot.
This might turn into a problem when BT runs into an enemy whose weapons are actually designed to penetrate enemy armor, rather than whittle it down bit by bit. Modern anti-tank weapons work in such a way, as do most 40K-weapons. This could vastly reduce BTs armor effectiveness.

[PainRack]

PainRack, i did only try to explain WHY so many people assumed short weapon ranges. Because frankly, that's what many sources told us.
I'm not agreeing with that sentiment nor am i arguing that it makes any sense.


Now for an actual argument i'd like to put forward:
Battletech-armor seems to be heavily ablative in it's nature. I got that sentiment from the game material i know and from the books i've read: Mech armor is slowly whittled down in every case. There are apparently no weapons that are designed to penetrate armor in a single shot.
This might turn into a problem when BT runs into an enemy whose weapons are actually designed to penetrate enemy armor, rather than whittle it down bit by bit. Modern anti-tank weapons work in such a way, as do most 40K-weapons. This could vastly reduce BTs armor effectiveness.

I'm sorry. I shouldn't had snapped at you

[RhoOmicronMu]

Balrog you missed the Battlearmor Battalion and IIRC more than half of FedSuns RCTs have a second artillery Battalion attached to the Armored Brigade. Your reinforced RCT still doesn't have anything on the DAG .

Now for an actual argument i'd like to put forward:
Battletech-armor seems to be heavily ablative in it's nature. I got that sentiment from the game material i know and from the books i've read: Mech armor is slowly whittled down in every case. There are apparently no weapons that are designed to penetrate armor in a single shot.
This might turn into a problem when BT runs into an enemy whose weapons are actually designed to penetrate enemy armor, rather than whittle it down bit by bit. Modern anti-tank weapons work in such a way, as do most 40K-weapons. This could vastly reduce BTs armor effectiveness.

Gauss rifles make great big holes in things. I don't think you can really argue that Battletech particle cannon are designed to cause armor ablation any more than those types of weapons are in general.

Instances of Hypersonic Gauss Rifles.

Tactics of duty (x6)
CH 22 x2 hypersonic, near end

At the last moment, the Bloodspiller pilot panicked and began backpedaling his Wasp, its medium laser swinging up to fire. Grayson fired first. With a shrill, harsh chirp and then a thundercrack that shattered glass for hundreds of meters around, the Gauss rifle mounted on his right arm accelerated a massive nickle-iron slug with a core of depleted uranium to hypersonic velocities.
--
The round slammed into the Wasp's upper right torso, opening a gash of a crater, ripping off the right arm entirely and sending it spinning end over end across the street. The shock staggered the little 'Mech and nearly knocked it down. Correcting his aim, Grayson sent a second hypersonic screamer squarely into the Wasp's center of mass. The impact picked the twenty-ton machine up and dropped it on its back; it slid across black pavement, striking sparks for ten meters before it came to rest.

CH 24
And as the bombardment continued, Grayson marched his Victor to the near side of the bridge, raised his Gauss rifle, and sent round after hypersonic round slamming through the massive gate. The rounds possessed no explosive, no warheads, but kinetic energy alone battered the massive gates back on warped tracks, set solid duralloy steel to glowing white hot, and brought down an avalanche of crumbling stone from the surrounding walls

CH 28 x3
A Davion Blackjack pivoted its torso to face him sixty meters away, and McCall triggered his 'Mech's left-arm Gauss rifle. The hypersonic round struck the lighter 'Mech low in the torso and to the left, punching straight through the armor in an explosion of shrapnel and scattering bits of internal circuitry.
--
Davis McCall fired again, sending a hypersonic round from his Highlander's Gauss rifle slamming into the Zeus, striking it in one bulky shoulder and spinning it halfway around.
--
With a sound like a giant thunderclap, the hypersonic projectile streaked into the center of the Zeus's back, where the protective armor was less than a third the thickness of the slabs of armor plate covering its chest.
The Zeus was driven forward a step by the incredible force of the impact, kinetic energy fusing an eight-square-meter patch of armor into a white-hot, molten mass. The projectile plunged through the 'Mech's thin back carapace like a laser beam through butter. Ricocheting off the much thicker armor encasing the power plant, the Gauss slug severed power cables, shredded the endoskeletal framework, and set off the store of long-range missiles stashed in the Zeus's right torso. As secondary explosions erupted from the 'Mech's torso, the right arm tore free, armor plates popped off, access panels blew open, and flame engulfed the machine's lower torso. An instant later, the head split apart as the cockpit canopy hinged open and the 'Mech's pilot inside rocketed clear On his ejection seat.


Black Dragon (x1)
CH 32
As if in direct response Ho Jung-V's 100-ton Pillager set down in the square, its HildCO Model 13 jump jets turning a dozen hapless onlookers into screaming torches before its great feet mercifully crushed them. The two Gauss rifles in its torso fired, the hypersonic rounds cracking like thunder before they slammed into the back of a Black Hawk-KU. One shot instantly locked the shoulder-actuator of its left arm, which carried a total of five medium lasers. Black smoke poured from the hole the other hit had punched in its armor.

The Hunters (X1)
CH 11

Still, the computer-generated hypersonic Gauss slug arrived before the slower missiles. The computer figured out the amount of damage each shot should have done in the 65-ton OmniMech, named for the nearly unkillable monsters of Irish myth. Like its namesake, the Cauldron-Born shrugged off the damage and turned to face its assailant.

Sword of Fire (x3)
CH 17
Barclay returned the Vindicator's fire with another pair of hypersonic Gauss slugs, backed up by a stuttering blast of laser fire from her 'Mech's pulse lasers. The vicious attack savaged the smaller 'Mech, leaving huge, glowing craters in the machine's right torso and right arm. Incredibly, the smaller machine stayed on its feet. Barclay gaped at the sight of the shot-riddled Vindicator, seemingly defiant in the face of her superior firepower. Hot anger welled up inside her.

CH 20 (Protomechs)
In response MacLeod pointed his right arm at the darting figure and triggered the Grizzard Gauss rifle mounted in that vambrace. The hypersonic slug streaked across the intervening gap to smash his assailant into dust. But, the fast-moving miniature 'Mech wasn't there when the Gauss slug arrived. So rapid was its movement that MacLeod had trouble tracking his target effectively. The head-size chunk of nickel-iron slammed into the ferrocrete pavement of the factory compound, throwing shards of gray, iron-reinforced concrete around like shrapnel. MacLeod tried to walk fire from his pulse laser into the enemy machine, but the Clanner moved too quickly for his 'Mech's pivoting torso to follow. The strobing laser bolts slashed into one of the factory buildings, leaving a series of smoking holes in their wake.

CH 22
Instinctively, she brought her 'Mech to a skidding halt and settled the screen-projected targeting discrete onto the target's center of mass. Twin bolts of azure energy lanced into the humanoid shape before her, followed by a hypersonic Gauss rifle slug. The enemy machine, now identified by her computer's warbook subroutine as a Loki Prime, took both PPC blasts in the right arm.

Shadows of War (x1)
CH 9
Cursing, Winston dropped the scarlet HUD-generated targeting reticle over the battered Clan 'Mech's center of mass. Caressing the triggers, she sent a pair of laser lances into the odd, petal-like structure on the Clan OmniMech's torso. A chunk of nickel-iron, moving at hypersonic speed, slammed into the Mad Cat's back-slanting thigh, smashing halfway through the heavy leg armor before ricocheting away

Flashpoint (x1)
CH 14
The Bushwacker traded another one-two combination of autocannon and laser against the Gunslinger's hasty—and only—gauss shot, the hypersonic slug smashing her right flank protection into ruin as she worried away more of the Gunslinger's heavier armor.

Call of Duty (x3)
CH 1
The Hollander further slowed its run and fired its only weapon, the massive gauss rifle jutting from one of its shoulders. The silver blur of the deadly gauss slug raced at hypersonic speed toward Archer's 'Mech, missing him by only a couple of meters.

CH 8
But the Vulcan did not remain in the fight long. Rhonda's silvery gauss slug had done its job. The hypersonic slug had slammed into the right thigh of the Vulcan with such force that the smaller 'Mech spun as if dancing a jig. As it came back around, she could see that the leg armor was all but gone and that what was left of the leg was mere mangled debris, torn myomer muscle, and leaking coolant. The Vulcan dropped from her field of vision as she moved to the side, worried about how Shorty was faring.

CH 13
"Looks like we have them on the run," Damon Huntt added as he brought his War Dog up. He fired his gauss rifle, which found its mark on the Thug that Archer had missed. The hypersonic slug buried itself in the mashed armor plating on the Thug's left shin. Not deterred, the Irregular 'Mech fired its pair of PPCs at an Avenger SRM carrier, sending armor spraying in every direction.

The Dying Time (x1)
CH 17
Lori fired the paired medium pulse lasers set into her Victor's much-abused left vambrace, and touched off the gauss rifle again for good measure. The pale green energy darts chewed into the enemy machine's legs, while the gauss rifle's hypersonic slug smashed into almost the same spot as the first shot.

Storms of fate (x1)
CH 4
"Surrender!" he called out to his opposite number just as the Falconer's gauss rifle caved in his BattleMech's left knee joint.
The raw kinetic force of the hypersonic mass shattered what was left of the armor, snapping the Exterminator's leg out straight and wrenching it back. Warning lights for his 'Mech's upper leg actuator and hip joint flared red, and the machine spun lazily to the right.

Operation Audacity (x3)
CH 2
Without hesitation, the enemy War Dog unleashed a silvery hypersonic slug from its gauss rifle. Finding its mark, the round plowed deep into Roshak's already damaged right leg, shearing off shards of armor plate and leaving other pieces looking as if they'd been torn by a jagged set of teeth. Roshak throttled his 'Mech forward, swinging the targeting reticle of his primary display onto the War Dog's image just as it faded back behind a cluster of thick trees.

He bit his lip, then said, "All forces, download my coordinates and concentrate on the roadway of my current position."

CH 7
Adam held his stand on the hill and locked onto a rushing Hellhound. The Falcon 'Mech moved into the valley below and began to sweep to his left as Adam locked onto it. He fired two of his gauss rifle slugs, and the Thunder Hawk almost lifted in the air from the force of their launch. Both hypersonic slugs found their marks on the running Falcon 'Mech. One hit in the Hellhound's right torso, cratering the armor plating like a massive bullet wound on man. The other slug tore into the hip joint.

CH 17
He twisted his Thunder Hawk around toward the advancing Falcons, bringing his targeting reticle onto the Black Hawk that had fired at him. As the tone of target-lock rang in his ears and through his brain, he let loose with a pair of his deadly gauss rifles, their hypersonic rounds slamming soundlessly into the Black Hawk. It was time to make them pay for their boldness.

End Game (x6)
CH 1
"Command 'Mech," he called out as he short-cycled his autocannon and jerked at the trigger. Pressed too hard, too fast, his right-arm cannon jammed. The other spat a long tongue of fire toward the advancing 'Mech, smashing eighty-millimeter slugs into its chest. "Banshee, 6S. On Kow—" It was all he had time for as the Banshee's heavy gauss rifle flashed with coil discharge and accelerated 250 kilograms of nickel-ferrous material up toward hypersonic speeds straight into his JagerMech's right side.

CH 14
An attack that never came as a Victor, the prince's namesake 'Mech, smashed a gauss slug through what was left of the Typhoon's right side. The hypersonic mass spent most of its kinetic energy in the crew compartment, leaving the UAV a gutted shell.

CH 15
A new gauss slug loaded through the breech, and capacitors discharged through acceleration coils, pulling the nickel-ferrous mass up to hypersonic velocity. The silver blur flashed out from the end of the rifle, and Tancred quickly toggled for his particle cannon as well, which chased after the slug with an arc of man-made lightning. Both slammed into the other assault 'Mech with stunning force, smashing armor into shards and splinters and cutting a deep, angry furrow up one side.

CH 27
Peter braced the Fafnir forward, leaning into the heavy recoil as each of his gauss rifles spat out a hypersonic mass. Both took the Viking in the left leg as the missile exhaust cleared on a light wind. One gauss slug lodged itself in the hip, fouling the joint. The second smashed through the lower leg actuator, gimping the ninety-ton machine and all but rooting it in place.

CH 29
Peter's gauss rifles spoke again and again. He cycled them as fast as he could, determined to distract his aunt from the distraught Cestus and any more of his warriors who might arrive. One hypersonic slug missed wide, punching through a building behind the Hauptmann and leaving an impressive wound behind. His others all slammed home, cratering Nondi's armor and wrenching her 'Mech's right arm so far back in its shoulder socket that it froze.

CH 30
The ex-champion of Solaris was not about to stumble over his own feet, not in a 'Mech he piloted as if born to it. He walked quickly out of the perilous, leaning position, moving back several meters. Enough that the blue-and-red militia Falconer had a clean shot at Prometheus, able to slam home the gauss slug no doubt meant for Kai's back into Victor's midriff.
Kai spun Yen-lo-wang and hurled an identical hypersonic mass back at the Falconer, still faster on the trigger—even in an awkward cross-body shot—than Victor would ever be. Prometheus was not to be forgotten, however. Its trio of pulse lasers chewed emerald teeth into the Falconer's side, sending armor streaming down to the ground in fiery runnels. Victor also pulled into an extra-long burst form his twelve-centimeter autocannon, digging slugs tipped with depleted uranium in behind the laserfire damage


By temptation and by War (x1)
CH 11
High-energy capacitors dumped their stored power into a series of coils, creating a magnetic funnel that latched onto the nickel-ferrous mass loaded into the Gauss rifle’s acceleration chamber. In a fraction of a second the mass had been driven up to hypersonic speeds, flashing down the short city block and into the left knee of the Wasp.

Flight of the Falcon (x1)
CH 32
Fifty meters to her left, MechWarrior Tyrus’Cougar staggered as a hypersonic nickel-ferrous slug from a BattleMech Gauss rifle took it just to the left and below its protruding cockpit

Hunters of the Deep (x2)
CH 12
“There,” Jesup interrupted, as the arm of Torrin’s Mad Cat III tore away under the horrific assault of twin hypersonic Gauss rounds from the Beta Sun Cobra. The fight ended immediately, the Beta warrior victorious.

CH 16
He closed his eyes, but he could almost predict where her footfalls would echo next in the small room, where her ministrations would take her, in a path as surely determined as a hypersonic Gauss round slung from a ’Mech.


Illusions of Victory (x1)
CH 23
One of the nickel-ferrous slugs, launched at incredible velocity, impacted directly centerline, smashing aside nearly every ounce of armor but failing to penetrate to the vulnerable skeleton beneath. The second slug hit the Banshee against the right hip, cracking the armor case protecting its side and pushing support struts through the bulky shielding of the 'Mech's extralight fusion engine.

25 years of art & fiction (x1)
The Walking Dead

The abominations had smuggled a towed Gauss rifle into the structure, and despite the fire that
the building had taken, they were still operative. The hypersonic shot had traced a path through
the air and hit warrior Dimitri’s Nova.

TRO 3050U (x1)
Fury Entry
Sniper Squad: Collectively dubbed by the rest of the
Davion Assault Guards, this six-man crew leads the
first Fury company (or its remains, anyway) delivered
to New Avalon between Blakist sieges. The crew has
proven to be a frighteningly effective hunter-killer team
as they escort the remaining lance of C3-equipped Furys,
often outperforming their C3-enhanced compatriots.
The Sniper Squad is noted for its tenacious retreat
from the suburbs of New Avalon City, where Word of
Blake units often zeroed in on the emissions of the C3
Furys only to have the Sniper Squad’s tank emerge
from the rubble behind the WoB units to pour hypersonic
shells into their backs

Project Phoenix (x1)
Intro
I was getting ready for to right my own epitaph, when a barely seen hypersonic slug skipped across the ground to slam into the Penetrator's lower right leg. It was Driscoll's Battlemeaster, propping itself up on one arm and levering its right straight out.

He followed up that hit with another, the Gauss round shattering away armor and pulverizing the hip joint.

Field Manual Federated Suns (x1)
Intro
Behind him, he heard a succession of sonic Booms, followed by the unmistakable spark-crunch of the
hypersonic nickel slugs fired by his Alacorns slamming into the already beleagured group.

Ahh lets see If I get this right
As both Heavy and reguler Gauss Rifles are hypersonic to conserve the Kinetic energy damage ratio the regular Gauss has to be faster (1920m/s vs 1750m/s). Though one has to keep in mind that capital scale ranges are also cannon and they indicate a much much higher velocity than I'm using here.
I'm not entirely certain what the units are here (or at lest what their called)

At 1920m/s and 125kg the momentum for a regular Gauss Slug should be 240,000 kg * M/s (~19 times that of the M829A3 round which is ~12,900)
A Heavy Gauss Rifle would have a momentum of around 440,000 kg * M/s

A 14 inch naval shell (680kg and 820m/s) has roughly the same Ke as the Gauss Slug but the momentum is 550,000 kg * M/s (a bit over twice).

If the regular Gauss Rifle had a MV of 2.2km/s (a play on the old Mach 2.2 bit...) it would have a Ke of 300 Mj the USN 16 inch L45 had a smiler Ke The momentum would be 275,000 and ~857,000 (or the Gauss has 1/3rd the momentum of the 16 inch shell)

It would have the same momentum as the [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]28 cm/52 SK C/28 guns on the [/FONT]Lützow class however.

In any case one is looking at the momentum of 10.5 to 11 inch guns for the Regular Gauss and 12.5 to 14 inch guns for the Heavy Gauss.

Assuming I got the math right.

Nebfer has done some great work on this stuff.

Oh, and as to the OP the Star Wars force wins.

[PainRack]

Now for an actual argument i'd like to put forward:
Battletech-armor seems to be heavily ablative in it's nature. I got that sentiment from the game material i know and from the books i've read: Mech armor is slowly whittled down in every case. There are apparently no weapons that are designed to penetrate armor in a single shot.
This might turn into a problem when BT runs into an enemy whose weapons are actually designed to penetrate enemy armor, rather than whittle it down bit by bit. Modern anti-tank weapons work in such a way, as do most 40K-weapons. This could vastly reduce BTs armor effectiveness.

The armour ablates as a defensive measure.

Quotes from the armour descriptionitself and other TROs suggest that the armour can and does deflect weapon shots.

My argument is that in the context of weapons development, armour gave Btech units something of a gambler mentality. You had something that gave you very good protection against normal weapons fire.... but only "part" of the time. However, fear not, the armour itself ablates so as to prevent physical damage to you.
As such, battletech weapons then became highly specialised so as to cause rapid armour ablation as opposed to seeking to penetrate through armour and then deal damage underneath.

[Sarevok]

The armor don't seem very ablative in novels iirc. Maybe it's another table top simplification with hitpoints, just like how ranges are reduced for gameplay sake.