Vegan horror story.

[CJvR]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/82304 ... [quote]Two vegans who fed their 11-month-old daughter only mother's milk went on trial in northern France on Tuesday charged with neglect after their baby died suffering from vitamin deficiency.

Sergine and Joel Le Moaligou, whose vegan diet forbids consuming any animal product including eggs and cow's milk, called the emergency services in March 2008 after becoming worried about their baby Louise's listlessness.

When the ambulance arrived at their home in Saint-Maulvis, a small village 150km north of Paris, the baby was already dead.

The ambulance workers called the police because the child was pale and thin, weighing 5.7kg compared to an average 8kg for her age.

The baby had only been fed on the milk of her mother, who was aged 37 at the time.

An autopsy showed that Louise was suffering from a vitamin A and B12 deficiency which experts say increases a child's sensitivity to infection and can be due to an unbalanced diet.

"The problem of vitamin B12 deficiency could be linked to the mother's diet," said Anne-Laure Sandretto, deputy prosecutor in the city of Amiens where the trial is taking place.

The parents, who also have a 13-year-old daughter who did not suffer vitamin deficiencies, became vegan after seeing "a television programme about how cattle were taken to abattoirs," said the mother's lawyer, Stephane Daquo.

They distrust traditional medicine and prefer to treat their children using their own methods, in accordance with advice from books.

"The couple did not follow the doctor's advice to hospitalise the baby who was suffering from bronchitis and was losing weight when they went for the nine-month check-up," Daquo said.

"They preferred applying clay or cabbage poultices whose recipes they found in their books. These are people who read the wrong thing at the wrong time," said Daquo.

The parents are still vegan and "are completely aware of the mistake they made," said the father's lawyer, Patrick Quenel.

The couple has been charged with "neglect or food deprivation followed by death" and face up to 30 years in prison if convicted.[/quote]

[Eulogy]

They didn't listen to their doctor, and now they're suffering the consequences. They thought they did good by not eating meat, but by doing so they indirectly killed their own baby. How's that for cruel irony?

[Akhlut]

I think the far more important thing to take away from the article is the following:

They distrust traditional medicine and prefer to treat their children using their own methods, in accordance with advice from books.

"The couple did not follow the doctor's advice to hospitalise the baby who was suffering from bronchitis and was losing weight when they went for the nine-month check-up," Daquo said.

"They preferred applying clay or cabbage poultices whose recipes they found in their books. These are people who read the wrong thing at the wrong time," said Daquo.

Their child died because they were inept and thought that they didn't need to hospitalize their daughter when she had bronchitis and didn't consult with someone about a way to have their daughter gain weight, not because they were vegan.

[Omeganian]

Wish it was unprecedented.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,364746,00.html

[Dalton]

The death of any child is cruel and saddening. Losing their baby is absolutely soul-crushing enough; prison won't do anything that visiting their child's grave won't do a thousand times worse.

[Crossroads Inc.]

The main lesson here, and one I HOPE the media reports on, is that just breast-feeding didn't kill their kid, it was because the parents were idiots and never took the kid to see a doctor. THAT is the unforgivable part here. Breast-feeding is good and should be encourage, but by no means at the exclusion of all other supplements.

[Xon]

The problem was it was milk from a vegan mother. B12 deficiency is a classical vegan problem, and the mother having a B12 deficiency just causes long term brain damage, but in an infant can lead to death as in this case. The vitamin A deficiency means the mother sure as hell wasn't having a health diet, and given they apparently wheren't using supplements meaning there wasn't a hope that the infant would also have a health diet.

Under normal circumstances, breast-feeding is a good thing. However, if the mother has poor nutrition and has severe vitamin deficiency it isn't going to be as health at all.

[SVPD]

The main lesson here, and one I HOPE the media reports on, is that just breast-feeding didn't kill their kid, it was because the parents were idiots and never took the kid to see a doctor. THAT is the unforgivable part here. Breast-feeding is good and should be encourage, but by no means at the exclusion of all other supplements.

The article indicates that they did take the child to a doctor for a checkup. After that, they failed to follow the doctor's advice by not hospitalizing the child and trying to use poultices of some sort as a treatment.

The end result is just as bad, but let's not let the facts fall by the wayside.

[SCRawl]

The problem was it was milk from a vegan mother. B12 deficiency is a classical vegan problem, and the mother having a B12 deficiency just causes long term brain damage, but in an infant can lead to death as in this case. The vitamin A deficiency means the mother sure as hell wasn't having a health diet, and given they apparently wheren't using supplements meaning there wasn't a hope that the infant would also have a health diet.

Under normal circumstances, breast-feeding is a good thing. However, if the mother has poor nutrition and has severe vitamin deficiency it isn't going to be as health at all.

You can't exclusively breast-feed a kid for eleven months. By six months a baby needs more than just breast milk; most people start with cereals, then move on to fruit, and vegetables, and later meat. I wonder why they skipped the cereal/fruit/vegetable stages; that still wouldn't have solved the B12 problem, and it remains a question to be answered.

[Xon]

You can't exclusively breast-feed a kid for eleven months. By six months a baby needs more than just breast milk; most people start with cereals, then move on to fruit, and vegetables, and later meat. I wonder why they skipped the cereal/fruit/vegetable stages; that still wouldn't have solved the B12 problem, and it remains a question to be answered.

As the saying goes, that couple 'doesn't have issues but subscriptions'. Massive malnutrition and non-viable care for a medical condition.

It's a testimony to humanity's ability to live after mistreating so much that the child lasted as long as it did. It's also a wonder the woman didn't have significant complications during pregnancy due to vitamin deficiency(that type of deficiency doesn't creep up on you in a few months).

[Mr. Coffee]

The main lesson here, and one I HOPE the media reports on, is that just breast-feeding didn't kill their kid, it was because the parents were idiots and never took the kid to see a doctor. THAT is the unforgivable part here. Breast-feeding is good and should be encourage, but by no means at the exclusion of all other supplements.

Better lesson that I wish the media would pick up and run with...

Humans are goddamned omnivores, stop being a shithead and eat your meat and dairy, ya tree-hugging hippy fuckwits. Seriously, who'd a thunk that eliminating half of your dietary options could result in deficiencies of key nutrients? I mean, WHO KNEW! And before any of the local rabbits get all riled up over that, yes, you can live on a vegan diet, but it can often require that you take vitamin supplements to make sure you get everything you need to run properly. The two cretins in the article seemed to overlook that and their kid paid for their ignorance. Know what would help this from happening? Stop fucking listening to celebrities and diet guru quacks and go see a fucking nutritionist if you have concerns about what you eat. Don't listen to some chucklehead like Moby (seriously, who the fuck listens to that shithead's music? Fuck that guy...), or some ignorant PETA-loving tartlette (Im looking at you Pamela Anderson and any other retard I see gracing their posters), go ask your fucking doctor.

Fucking hell... Goddamn it, people. Shit like this is why I'm kind of glad it isn't legal to go around punching people in the crotch. You'd be able to track my movement from orbit from the sheer mass of idiots I'd leave lying on the ground clutching their privates in my wake.

[Raxmei]

These cases usually involve restricted diets that go beyond mainstream veganism. It's often some sort of raw foodism. The vegan community is aware of the B12 problem. If the parents had accepted a more responsible source of advice than whatever book they were using this problem could have been prevented and if they had listened to a doctor when problems first started it could have been fixed. The child had obviously been seriously ill for months before she died, her parents had the means to save her, and they didn't. It's not much unlike the faith healing neglect cases. Perhaps more clear cut since in similar cases to this the parents caused the medical problems which they then failed to treat. Sadly certain sorts of radical diet seem to come packaged with distrust of modern medicine.

[Mr. Coffee]

That's kind of my point entirely, Rax. Half of these flaming shitheads are probably vegans not because they learned about nutrition, consulted a physician, and made an informed decision. Some dopey shithead celebrity told 'em it was cool or actually wasted their time actually talking to some PETA activist and took them seriously, basically anything but an actual informed intelligent decision. If you're going to do something as drastic as changing your entire diet (hell, just going on a diet of any kind) go talk to a qualified doctor about it. If the two shitbirds in the OP article had done so and actually listened to the doctors and not whatever half-baked moron they actually ended up listened to, their kid might still be a healthy, happy baby girl and not a potential honorable-mention at the next Darwin Awards.

But yeah, fuck hippies and their fru-fru tree-hugging ways.

[Spectre_nz]

Goggling brings up quite a number of similar unfortunate cases.

We had one in New Zealand a few years back
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... id=2045066

The couple were not only daft hippies, but religious nuts also.

Their baby was identified as being severely vitamin deficient and they were told in no uncertain terms that their son would die without intervention, but a simple vitamin injection would cure him, practically immediatly; even up until half an hour before his death medical intervention could have saved his life.

However, they held the view that a sick child was a test from god and refused help, then took the baby into hiding. Of course, Tragedy, and then a police prosecution, ensued.

The worst part for me is that they still don’t acknowledge any of this was their fault.

[Aldroud]

I dispair sometimes and wonder about the future of the race. How did we ever make it through the bottleneck?

I would have thought the genes for idiots like this would have been weeded out generations ago.

[Mr. Coffee]

Oh, man, are you in for a rude fuckin' shock. See, Al, people like those in the OP article prove one central fact of life, the universe, and everything. Darwin was fucking wrong. Sure the strongest and the smartest animals thing looked good on paper, but he seemed to miss the part about quantity vs quality, and stupid breeds damn quick.

[CJvR]

...to come packaged with distrust of modern medicine.

Perhaps because modern medicine consistently tell them their brilliant idea is stupid.

The worst part for me is that they still don’t acknowledge any of this was their fault.

Sounds even worse. It one thing to be too stupid to accept advice but actively hiding from help takes a special kind of idiot - and not surprising a religous one.

[Broomstick]

Bottom line was failure to follow medical advice resulted in a child's death.

You can eat a healthy, completely vegan diet but you must supplement for B12 (or eat vegetables that aren't cleaned and sanitized so you get bug parts and rodent shit in your diet sufficient to supply that need). You also, particularly if you're pregnant or nursing, MUST be monitored for deficiencies and if necessary supplement. You can't just live on pasta and potatoes, either.

"Mainstream" vegans, the sane ones willing to listen to doctors and research, know this, get regular check ups, and supplement when necessary. I've known a few who "cheated" every so often and consumed a little animal-product food to ensure sufficient B12. I don't understand limiting one's dietary choices to that extent, but it can be done.

Even more important, children and infants need a different vegetarian or vegan diet than adults - they need higher levels of fats, for one thing, as you require a certain minimum for proper nervous system development as well as energy for a growing body.

They took their baby to a doctor. They were told the child wasn't doing well. They ignored the medical advice. It killed their killed.

Likely, the mother had sufficient levels of B12 to keep the older child healthy, but as the years rolled by her reserves dropped and she didn't have sufficient for the next child.

One more note - it is possible for an infant to live on just breast milk past six months but it's extremely difficult - one of my nieces had a terrible time in infancy and was on breastmilk only until about a year old - but she also received supplements, was also under the care of a team of doctors, and there was a LOT of medical intervention involved. Her diet was extremely limited until around age 4 due to medical problems and as noted she was constantly watched and monitored.

These days she's pretty damn healthy - although she's decided to try veganism recently. Not that she has much choice - she is deathly allergic to all forms of dairy, and I'm not sure she can eat eggs either so any vegetarianism for her is pretty much vegan. But she's still getting her regular check ups for her chronic health problems, takes supplements anyway as she has since childhood, and she's both sane and responsible enough to give it up if it's not working out well for her.

[Serafina]

The simplest advice for breastfeeding/pregnant vegans or for their children:
Stick to a vegetarian diet. Ease your conscience by buying local milk and eggs from properly-held animals.

Actually, i would almost make this advice for vegans in general - eating animal products every now and then because you need them should be totally compatible with their moral justifications.


Also: Is breast milk vegan? After all, humans are animals, so it's technically an animal product

[Isolder74]

They justify themselves by saying that the breastmilk is given willingly to the child by the mother. One of the many things they try to use, especially PETA, is guilt tripping over taking away milk from the cows babies as morally evil. No matter how well the cows are kept they whine over the act of milking them and the fact that eventually they will end up as hamburger.

[Iroscato]

This is just fucked up. It shouldn't be allowed to keep children on a vegan diet, kids NEED a varied diet that a vegan one can't provide. And the part about them using fucking poultices to try to cure bronchitis...they deserve all the time they get.

[Broomstick]

>ahem<

Generations of Jains would disagree with your stance that a vegan diet isn't sufficient. It CAN be, if done properly. You either need a culture+cuisine combination that provides the needed nutrients, or supplementation, or both.

Veganism alone did not kill this child - failure to follow medical advice killed this child.

A vegan diet can be quite varied.... but most people coming out of predominantly European/Western background don't have the cultural tools to pull it off. And most of the nutcases going into it to the point they'd ignore medical advice probably also overly restrict some nutrients, such as fats, which are so low in most vegan diets that they must be added to such a diet to provide sufficient calories and fats for adults, much less children.

But when a doctor says "you're deficient in B12, and so is your breastmilk" you HAVE TO supplement.

[Mr. Coffee]

I swear to God and Sonny Jesus, Broomy, it's almost as if the kids these days just don't wanna listen, ya know?

[Iroscato]

If that was aimed at me, Mr.Coffee, fuck orf
And sorry, I guess I got a bit pissed off. My problem wasn't so much the vegan diet, just the ridiculous attitude the parents had towards medical advice. Just a bit distressing to read it. Still, they're gonna get all the punishment they need from the knowlegde they pretty much killed their child

[Dark Hellion]

I don't see why this is so hard for people to wrap their minds around. People don't want to be told that others are more knowledgable about how to raise their kids than them. So they will listen to the advice that reinforces their beliefs to disastrous results. As cynical as it sounds, you can expect something similar to happen thousands of more times in your life and for a lot of people the plural of tragedy becomes indifference.

The worst part for me is that they still don’t acknowledge any of this was their fault.

They probably never will. To admit that it was their fault is to admit the soul-crushing truth that they where responsible for the death of their own child. Normal people aren't made to deal with this kind of thing so they will compartmentalize or rationalize any way they can to avoid admission of culpability. Denial is what saves them from their own personal hell.