Tech Analysis: Nemesis phaser rifle.

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Connor MacLeod
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: No. Its a common "mistake" in scifi to use energy weapons and assume they must be better then projectile. As I detailed, the phaser rifles do have other capabilities. For a general purpose weapon primarily used for shipboard purposes, its just fine. What they need is a dedicated infantry combat weapon.
No, what they need are fully automatic energy weapons.......sort of like......
perhaps......the E-WEB!!!

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Post by TheDarkling »

GOD BLESS THE EMPIRE! *sniffles*

Although I do recall Kirk having one such device IIRC in "The Cage."
For whatever reason, it may hav ebeen phased out of service for being
impratical, or "inhuman" or the like.
Ermm Kirk would have had a job since he wasn't commanding the Enterprise at the time.

Pike's ship had a canon that was hooked upto the ship and had some uber power levels or something but it wasn't exactly going to be of use in combat.
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Post by Ted C »

TheDarkling wrote:
GOD BLESS THE EMPIRE! *sniffles*

Although I do recall Kirk having one such device IIRC in "The Cage."
For whatever reason, it may hav ebeen phased out of service for being
impratical, or "inhuman" or the like.
Ermm Kirk would have had a job since he wasn't commanding the Enterprise at the time.

Pike's ship had a canon that was hooked upto the ship and had some uber power levels or something but it wasn't exactly going to be of use in combat.
I think he's referring to the rifle-ish thing from "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
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Post by TheDarkling »

The E WEB doesn't bear much in common with that and Kirk's rifle-ish thing is more similiar to the current trek rifles (without the built in trek tech of course).
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Post by Ted C »

Well, as far as I can tell, the weapon used against the door in "The Cage" was actually one of the ship's phasers transported down to the surface and operated with broadcast power.
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Post by TheDarkling »

I'm not sure it was a ships phaser (or was it laser?) but it was powered by the ship.
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Post by Stravo »

They used lasers in the Cage.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stravo wrote:They used lasers in the Cage.
That was before they developed the laser proof nav deflectors :D
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Alyeska wrote:Here is another view of it. This was my photoshoped creation that became the base for the 3d picture.
M23A4
(pic)
And here are two carbines. The only difference is in the stock itself. Both based on the full sized rifle. Kinda like the M16 compared to the M4.

M21A2
(pic)

M21A3
(pic)
:shock: Get a job working for B&B! Those designs completely blow away all the other craptacular designs on the shows! They actually look like they have features that have a function.
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Post by Alyeska »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Here is another view of it. This was my photoshoped creation that became the base for the 3d picture.
M23A4
(pic)
And here are two carbines. The only difference is in the stock itself. Both based on the full sized rifle. Kinda like the M16 compared to the M4.

M21A2
(pic)

M21A3
(pic)
:shock: Get a job working for B&B! Those designs completely blow away all the other craptacular designs on the shows! They actually look like they have features that have a function.
Thanks. Chris O'Farrell and myself have worked on those designs for quite some time. The idea was to make it look futuristic while still retaining a practical design and having logical features.
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A new examination of Alyeska's essay

Post by Ted C »

Meaning no offense Alyeska, I'm still going to pick your phaser article apart. We'll see if I find anything questionable in it.
*major snip of material on previous Star Trek phaser rifles*

The newest rifle shown is that in Nemesis.

Upon first inspection the rifle seems identical to the Type-3b except it has a targeting sight. However there are enough differences that this should be considered a new subclass just as the 3b is to the 3a. This rifle for now will be called the Type-3c. The Type-3c has one immediately obvious difference from the 3b. This rifle now sports a red targeting sight positioned behind and slightly above the flashlight. Also the Flashlight is of a new and seemingly more powerful design as its shape has changed to allow a larger flashlight point. The less obvious changes are the power and charge indicators on top of the rifle just behind the flashlight. There also seems to be a battery charger handle that is pulled to “cock” the rifle.

Possibly this has to do with the power clip or is merely a way to check that the rifle is fully powered. Additionally the rifle has a slightly altered emission tip. First looking at the rifle one would think that targeting sight is for a backup somewhat similar to the Type-3 incase the targeting capabilities are compromised. However combat performance of the rifle indicates this is either untrue or the rifle has altered capabilities for that particular combat. Throughout the movie Nemesis the Type-3c was seen in combat twice and both times it had similar shown capabilities. The rifle was firing a slightly different looking pulse and had a different sound then the 3b did in Insurrection and First Contact. Additionally the rifle was firing at much higher rates of fire. The most shown was a three shot burst in the space of less then a second. The rifle also did not have the accuracy levels of ANY of the previous rifles. There are three possible explanations for this. The first is that the auto targeting feature was removed to allow for greater refire. This explains why the red sight was installed. The second is that auto targeting can not be used with the high refire rate, which again is why the red sight was installed. The third option is that the Type-3c is a shipboard model of the phaser rifle. Accurate fire is very important for longer range combat whereas close combat uses higher rates of fire. An example of this is the MP5 compared to the M-16. High rates of fire can cause the enemy to take cover allowing you to advance. Any option seems reasonable, though I am inclined to go with the third because the rifle is used for the most part on the ship itself.
I'm inclined to say that this is another typical example of Federation "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" design. They've apparently tried to design a weapon that can perform as both a rifle and as a submachinegun. Unfortunately, it's too big to make a good submachinegun (as you can tell by comparing the M-16 to the MP-5 in size). It may still be accurate enough to be a decent rifle, though, assuming that the auto-targeting feature comes into play if the fire-rate is cut back.
It seems they traded off one capability for another. If this is the case then its likely the 3b is still a main production model and this is merely another variant rifle for different uses.
We're dealing with a piece of equipment that probably came off a replicator. They can presumably get any past model they want if they don't purge old patterns from the system.
Another thing should be noted in Nemesis is that Picard used the 3c to hit a Reman over the head twice. The rifle broke cleanly in half and was bent at a bad angle.

Possible explanations for this is a faulty weapon because of a random flaw in the construction. This seems plausible because faults do happen by accident.
Would the "single-bit errors" found in replicated items be likely to result in this sort of mechanical failure? If not, this is probably not a random flaw. It could be a problem with the replicator pattern, which would mean that all phaser rifles produced from that pattern share the same flaw.
The other is that when the rifle went into main production cheaper materials were used. However the second is unlikely for two reasons. Compared to other governments the Federation seems obsessed with safety and they have an insane number of safety measures, like 2nd emergency coupling and the sort.
After the number of warp core problems that Galaxy-class starships suffered with no apparent action on the part of Starfleet, not to mention the vast array of safety-related design problems that people have spotted in Star Trek equipment over the years, I find it hard to swallow that last statement. They didn't even put trigger guards on their weapons until First Contact.
It seems unlikely they would compromise the design this way. Secondly is that this is a new design variant off the other rifle and it does not seem to be in full production yet so the design can not yet be altered. Its possible this design is even in testing still.
It may in fact be a prototype, given the reckless nature of Federation testing procedures (see "New Ground" for a particularly annoying example of careless testing of new technologies).
As a end note there is one last rifle. This is the Type-3EVA as I call it.

This rifle was also featured in First Contact. Its design follows the Type-3a more closely, except this rifle has been optimized for EVA type combat. It has a forward grip to allow for easier aiming and quicker use. The trigger guard has been removed. There is no sling, and the stock has been “hollowed” out. There are also two magnetic points on the rifle that allow it to be placed down in a zero-G environment. Other then the mostly cosmetic outer changes its operational patterns are identical to the Type-3a.
Again, we're looking at items that can be replicated as needed. Once the design work is done on a variant for use while wearing a space suit, all they really need to do is distribute the pattern.
Further end note. The DS9 TM states that the Bajoran Phaser rifle are technologically similar to Starfleet units. Given that for the majority of DS9 the Type-3s were used and Bajoran weapons never fired pulses, the comparison seems clear. As stated by the DS9 TM: “The Rifle also contains a seeker/tracker, which operates primarily on IR and amplified biogenic fields. During the occupation, some early rifle units were outfitted with target discriminators: Bajoran fighters using coded biogenic transponders, in theory, would not be hit by friendly fire.” The implication of this statement is quite clear. Bajoran weapons used Friend/Foe systems as well as varying targeting programs. These rifles are stated similar to the Type-3s. The 3a, and 3b are more advanced then the Type-3 and likely have superior capabilities in this regard. This would explain the high accuracy of the 3a and 3b rifles even when fired from the hip.
This would actually be an extremely handy feature in a submachinegun like the MP5, which is likely to be used at close quarters with relatively little aiming and a greater chance of friendlies being in the line of fire. If the IFF and auto-targeting features are included on the older models, then they would seem to be better suited to combat in boarding actions than the newer "Type-3c", which seems to lack their targeting abilities.

The disadvantage of the automatic targeting would be a lack of discrimination among valid targets. The auto-targeter is likely to choose the closest enemy in its "fire arc", even if a more distant enemy is actually more threatening (by virtue of having a better weapon or a superior position).
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Post by Howedar »

Ted C wrote:Well, as far as I can tell, the weapon used against the door in "The Cage" was actually one of the ship's phasers transported down to the surface and operated with broadcast power.
What a fascinating idea. I've never seen that one before.
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Post by Alyeska »

Ted, I am not ignoring you, I just haven't gotten around to responding yet. I will adress your points shortly.
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Post by Ted C »

No hurry, Alyeska. Thanks for the update.
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Re: A new examination of Alyeska's essay

Post by Alyeska »

Ted C wrote:Meaning no offense Alyeska, I'm still going to pick your phaser article apart. We'll see if I find anything questionable in it.
Fair enough, constructive criticism is always welcome
I'm inclined to say that this is another typical example of Federation "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" design. They've apparently tried to design a weapon that can perform as both a rifle and as a submachinegun. Unfortunately, it's too big to make a good submachinegun (as you can tell by comparing the M-16 to the MP-5 in size). It may still be accurate enough to be a decent rifle, though, assuming that the auto-targeting feature comes into play if the fire-rate is cut back.
I have to both agree and disagree. First, I would love it the Type-3c was also auto targeting capable. I did leave that option open. However I had to go with the available information and thus I choose that this is probably another sub class that has no auto targeting feature. I believe this is both supported by the rifle having a much different targeting system above. Instead of an integrated scope/flashlight it now has a very powerful flashlight with a holographic site located above that. Combined with the shown accuracy of the weapon, I just have to say they removed the auto-targeting features for one reason or another.

As to the size. I whole heartedly agree that they made the rifle to big. Seeing the use of the weapon on the surface also indicates it was built for use in both ship board situations and planet bound. Given all information on the 3c, I have mixed emotions about it compared to the Type-3 and 3b.
We're dealing with a piece of equipment that probably came off a replicator. They can presumably get any past model they want if they don't purge old patterns from the system.
This is possible, but I tend to disagree. While I suspect that rifles can be replicated, they seemingly aren't, at least not often. In Deep Space Nine they primarily used the Type-3 rifle and only once had the Type-3b. I tend to think that to make production of the rifles cheap and with a comming war the Federation had a factory that was mass producing Type-3s. On the same line I think they were eventually getting the Type-3b into production. With the Type-3c being a newer weapon it is likely built rather then replicated.
Possible explanations for this is a faulty weapon because of a random flaw in the construction. This seems plausible because faults do happen by accident.
That assumes the rifle is replicated rather then constructed. I tend to think they are constructed because that is cheaper.
Would the "single-bit errors" found in replicated items be likely to result in this sort of mechanical failure? If not, this is probably not a random flaw. It could be a problem with the replicator pattern, which would mean that all phaser rifles produced from that pattern share the same flaw.
That remains a possibility, however as already stated I feel the rifle is more likely constructed.
After the number of warp core problems that Galaxy-class starships suffered with no apparent action on the part of Starfleet, not to mention the vast array of safety-related design problems that people have spotted in Star Trek equipment over the years, I find it hard to swallow that last statement. They didn't even put trigger guards on their weapons until First Contact.
The Galaxy is an anomoly in Starfleet. Just looking at the Wolf-359 graveyard scene you can see all the "intact" ships. The trigger guard issue is something else entirely though. This goes all the way back to TOS. Still, the Federation is stated to have more saftey systems on their ships then other governments.
It may in fact be a prototype, given the reckless nature of Federation testing procedures (see "New Ground" for a particularly annoying example of careless testing of new technologies).
That does fit in with the known information. It explains why the weapon is brand new. It also explains the Type-3VGR and Type-3a.
Again, we're looking at items that can be replicated as needed. Once the design work is done on a variant for use while wearing a space suit, all they really need to do is distribute the pattern.
And we still disagree on this point.
This would actually be an extremely handy feature in a submachinegun like the MP5, which is likely to be used at close quarters with relatively little aiming and a greater chance of friendlies being in the line of fire. If the IFF and auto-targeting features are included on the older models, then they would seem to be better suited to combat in boarding actions than the newer "Type-3c", which seems to lack their targeting abilities.
Agreed. At best the Type-3c is better at supression of the enmy by using its manual aiming and improved refire rate. But the Type-3 and probably the Type-3b would have been more suited for combat in Nemesis.
The disadvantage of the automatic targeting would be a lack of discrimination among valid targets. The auto-targeter is likely to choose the closest enemy in its "fire arc", even if a more distant enemy is actually more threatening (by virtue of having a better weapon or a superior position).
Indeed. However one would have to know exactly how the system works before knowing for sure. One theory being floated around (I find it interesting, but not workable) is that the rifle fires at the enemy you are directly looking at. This of course means the weapon somehow has to be able to note who you are looking at.
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Re: A new examination of Alyeska's essay

Post by Ted C »

Alyeska wrote:
Ted C wrote: We're dealing with a piece of equipment that probably came off a replicator. They can presumably get any past model they want if they don't purge old patterns from the system.
This is possible, but I tend to disagree. While I suspect that rifles can be replicated, they seemingly aren't, at least not often. In Deep Space Nine they primarily used the Type-3 rifle and only once had the Type-3b. I tend to think that to make production of the rifles cheap and with a comming war the Federation had a factory that was mass producing Type-3s. On the same line I think they were eventually getting the Type-3b into production. With the Type-3c being a newer weapon it is likely built rather then replicated.
Production might be less efficient with replicators, but distribution could easily be more efficient. Unless bandwidth limitations prohibit it, you could transmit the pattern for a piece of equipment much more quickly and easily than you could ship the devices themselves. I'm not a big endorser of "industrial replication", but it does have its advantages for equipping the crews of starships, who may be on duty a long way from a starbase.
Alyeska wrote: The Galaxy is an anomoly in Starfleet. Just looking at the Wolf-359 graveyard scene you can see all the "intact" ships. The trigger guard issue is something else entirely though. This goes all the way back to TOS. Still, the Federation is stated to have more saftey systems on their ships then other governments.
Where was this stated? How much effort does it take to improve your safety program over that of the even-more-reckless Klingons or the extremely cost-conscious Ferengi? How much does the Federation even know about Romulan safety requirements?
Alyeska wrote:
This would actually be an extremely handy feature in a submachinegun like the MP5, which is likely to be used at close quarters with relatively little aiming and a greater chance of friendlies being in the line of fire. If the IFF and auto-targeting features are included on the older models, then they would seem to be better suited to combat in boarding actions than the newer "Type-3c", which seems to lack their targeting abilities.
Agreed. At best the Type-3c is better at supression of the enmy by using its manual aiming and improved refire rate. But the Type-3 and probably the Type-3b would have been more suited for combat in Nemesis.
If you're correct, it's a pity that the rapid-fire feature of the 3c is incompatible with the targeting features of earlier models. IFF and automated targeting would be extremely valuable when spraying a high volume of fire. Without those features, increasing the fire rate doesn't really seem to improve the weapon.
Alyeska wrote:
The disadvantage of the automatic targeting would be a lack of discrimination among valid targets. The auto-targeter is likely to choose the closest enemy in its "fire arc", even if a more distant enemy is actually more threatening (by virtue of having a better weapon or a superior position).
Indeed. However one would have to know exactly how the system works before knowing for sure. One theory being floated around (I find it interesting, but not workable) is that the rifle fires at the enemy you are directly looking at. This of course means the weapon somehow has to be able to note who you are looking at.
Well, I don't have the resources (tapes or DVDs) to make a study, but you might actually be able to survey all of the phaser-fire incidents from Star Trek and determine something about how the weapons prioritize targets. That's a project for someone with a LOT of time on his hands, though.
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"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
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