Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Balrog
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Balrog »

Simon_Jester wrote:Protoss Zealots armed with energy blades perform quite well in combat against the frontline troops of other species, so I don't think their conservatism really hurts them in that respect.

I suppose it's possible, though, that sheer refusal to innovate plays a major role in the Protoss decision to forgo this technology. I can't rule it out. It just totally beggars my imagination that using teleporters to move such cargoes over short distances would be cheaper and more efficient than using physical vehicles. Safer, yes. Faster, yes. Cheaper... well, maybe I'm just underestimating how cost-effective Protoss teleportation technology is.
That's damning with faint praise indeed. After all, we judge entities in here based on objective criteria, not how well they do within their own setting; sure the Klingons are considered fearsome in personal combat within Trek, but they've been a punching bag since forever.

And I think you are making a couple of mistakes here. First in applying too much of a favorable condition towards your "robotruck vs teleport" argument. The path between an Assimilator and a Nexus will not always be a nice, straight, flat plain like in the games. Things like difficult terrain and hazardous weather can increase the time and costs of transporting it. Even on favorable terrain, the simple situation of Vespene geysers being located far away from each other will increase these factors. Unless you want to plop a Nexus besides each one, which just increases your costs even further.

Second, and more important, is the fact that we've never seen the Protoss use this technique even when it would make more sense than robotrucks, like when you are on a battlefield. And Raynor has had extensive experience with the Protoss; if he knew they were capable of doing it, he probably would've mentioned it to Venkmen at some point.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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@Balrog: Ah, but Raynor never did figure out the Auto-refinery did he? That was totally his R&D team, and that took them the whole campaign. And he didn't have that R&D team till his raiders were up and running. And then during the course of SCII, we never see him (yet) engaged with allied Protoss. The exception is Selendis (who half-plans to kill him, depending on the path you take) and Zeratul (who was in no condition to listen). It's totally plausible that the Protoss could invent such a device, but haven't yet for any number of reasons. And lest we forget, the terran R&D department didn't consider such a modification to be a herculean effort and were surprised the millenia-old protoss hadn't done it yet.

@All: If we take the question of scale out of the picture, say that a smaller patrol force of the Galactic Empire accidentally is hurled bizzarely far away and thus unable to clal for backup or return to their homeworld. Unbeknowenst to them, they have 'violated sacred Taldarim space' across 8-12 worlds or so and have an 8-12 planet battle to fight against this Protoss sect. So rather than being so vastly outnumbered as to make any actual combat-comparison moot, we leave the Protoss side at being "somewhat" outnumbered on the order of 2:1 or 3:1. *now* who wins? If it makes a difference, we can give each side time to prepare by [insert technobabble here]
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Sela wrote:@Balrog: Ah, but Raynor never did figure out the Auto-refinery did he? That was totally his R&D team, and that took them the whole campaign. And he didn't have that R&D team till his raiders were up and running. And then during the course of SCII, we never see him (yet) engaged with allied Protoss. The exception is Selendis (who half-plans to kill him, depending on the path you take) and Zeratul (who was in no condition to listen). It's totally plausible that the Protoss could invent such a device, but haven't yet for any number of reasons. And lest we forget, the terran R&D department didn't consider such a modification to be a herculean effort and were surprised the millenia-old protoss hadn't done it yet.
That's kinda the point. Raynor and his ragtag group did with the Protoss' own tech what they themselves had not done. It's shades of the EMH using Borg tech to beat S8472 which the Borg, despite all their natural advantages, couldn't do. It would have been infinitely better if the upgrade came around as a result of the Protoss being nice to Jim for, you know, doing what he did to help them and all before. Instead Venkmen goes through some Protoss salvage and comes up with a better mousetrap than the Protoss'. I can understand a tradition-bound warrior caste, having gone on for so long without a formidable opponent, holding on to some outdated ideas of combat, but dammit at least make the scientists smart!
@All: If we take the question of scale out of the picture, say that a smaller patrol force of the Galactic Empire accidentally is hurled bizzarely far away and thus unable to clal for backup or return to their homeworld. Unbeknowenst to them, they have 'violated sacred Taldarim space' across 8-12 worlds or so and have an 8-12 planet battle to fight against this Protoss sect. So rather than being so vastly outnumbered as to make any actual combat-comparison moot, we leave the Protoss side at being "somewhat" outnumbered on the order of 2:1 or 3:1. *now* who wins? If it makes a difference, we can give each side time to prepare by [insert technobabble here]
Imperials still win. Their stuff on the whole is still generally better than their Protoss counterparts.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Simon_Jester »

Balrog wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Protoss Zealots armed with energy blades perform quite well in combat against the frontline troops of other species, so I don't think their conservatism really hurts them in that respect.
I suppose it's possible, though, that sheer refusal to innovate plays a major role in the Protoss decision to forgo this technology. I can't rule it out. It just totally beggars my imagination that using teleporters to move such cargoes over short distances would be cheaper and more efficient than using physical vehicles. Safer, yes. Faster, yes. Cheaper... well, maybe I'm just underestimating how cost-effective Protoss teleportation technology is.
That's damning with faint praise indeed. After all, we judge entities in here based on objective criteria, not how well they do within their own setting; sure the Klingons are considered fearsome in personal combat within Trek, but they've been a punching bag since forever.
Objectively, Protoss Zealots are good enough to go mano a mano with guys in power armor who carry what, by all appearances, are effective automatic rifles. Terran Marines may not be the greatest troops in fiction, but there's nothing about how they're portrayed that makes us expect them to be pushovers. We can't just say "LOL redshirts" and dismiss the Zealots' performance.

Remember Jedi? They, too, are psychic warriors who use big glowing swords. They, too, seem to be able to keep up with the guys armed with guns. We do not assume the Jedi are weak because "objectively" they are men with big glowing swords fighting men with guns, because "objectively" men with guns who tangle with Jedi at one to one odds usually wind up with their head rolling in the dirt.

Now, we can dispute why Zealots manage to do this. Me, I'd chalk it up to energy shields. If we're going by game mechanics, those things can soak up a hit from a large-caliber howitzer and leave the wearer intact (er, once). That gives them a lot of options that would not be viable for melee troops under normal conditions- not even for Star Wars Jedi, since Jedi can't ignore shrapnel as easily as Zealots can.
And I think you are making a couple of mistakes here. First in applying too much of a favorable condition towards your "robotruck vs teleport" argument. The path between an Assimilator and a Nexus will not always be a nice, straight, flat plain like in the games. Things like difficult terrain and hazardous weather can increase the time and costs of transporting it. Even on favorable terrain, the simple situation of Vespene geysers being located far away from each other will increase these factors. Unless you want to plop a Nexus besides each one, which just increases your costs even further.
In principle, yes. A lot depends on the exact economic details- how much does the teleporter cost, how much is each kilogram of gas worth, how far must it be transported, and so on. We don't know these details and have only extremely crude and possibly misleading information on the subject. I don't think it's a good plan to work from that basis, when we have the obvious alternate explanation that "teleport refineries" are used in combat, because they are less vulnerable to enemy attack.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Balrog wrote:Imperials still win. Their stuff on the whole is still generally better than their Protoss counterparts.
Um, what? I can understand how on the heavier end of the spectrum, the Empire would have superiority (The Protoss never really did make massive weapons of war, due to their peaceful culture, and we don't exactly have numbers on that end for the Protoss, either), but Protoss space forces are at least low-end Wars figures*, and their ground forces on the lighter end of the spectrum definitely best the Empire's ground forces.**

*Based off of Protoss Carrier-based bombardment of planets, which while not as thorough as a BDZ, has devastated worlds. One good example is the planet Braxis, an ice world (like Hoth), which during bombardment had most of the ice melted or vaporized, although it has since frozen again.

**I've never seen shields on any Imperial vehicle, and I think that SW light armor is definitely comparable to Dragoons.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Purple »

The issue with the protos is that they have no proper ranged units.
Their line infantry is shielded and armored enough to take hits from a howitzer and stay a live but I doubt they could run into a line of storm troopers with e-webs set up. And their only ranged weapons are artillery units or light armor like the dragon.

On a side note, Terran rifles don't seem to be that much superior to modern weapons (but I am not fluff expert) so I wonder how the protos (ground forces only) would match up with say a WW1 trench line.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Reavers, Purple, they'd slaughter a line of troops. Colossi even more so.

Terran marine infantry rifles are, IIRC, much higher caliber than modern rifles, and are essentially coil guns.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Purple wrote: On a side note, Terran rifles don't seem to be that much superior to modern weapons (but I am not fluff expert)
If you believe the old manual fluff (and with Blizzard's terribly inconsistent writing, god help you if you do), their infantry rifle is a gauss rifle firing 8mm slugs that'll go through 2 inches of their equivalent of modern steel. They burn through their magazines rapidly (ref: Brood War opening, the wiki (which says 30 rounds/second).
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Zealots are a bit of a joke IMHO in an in-universe context. The fluff says the Protoss are not numerous or prone to procreation, yet their primary offensive unit is strictly melee with no ranged capability whatsoever. Yes, they have shielding and powered armor (and SC2 had a proposed teleportational ability though I'm not sure its still valid) to mitigate that somewhat, but they still have no ranged capability. This is despite the fact they give Dragoons (and Immortals, or whatever the SC2 unit) and other units ranged weaponry (but no close in capacity.) Out of universe we know its "game balance" cuz its an RTS game. But it makes no real logical sense in universe - the only real excuse you can give is cultural ones. (Which works for in-universe and may allow for them to change, but it still doesn't make it any less silly.) The fact the Dark Templar share this is only slightly less silly (although the Darth-Maulesque death scythe thingy is somewhat sillier. AT least they can cloak themselves.)


Now the general debate:

Firepower, ships, etc. doesn't matter much. If they were going to war in a non-retarded fashion they'd probably build different kinds of ships than they 'currently' use (EG practical ones.) We know that SC and SW can generally render planets inhabitable via firepower using broadly similar methods, and with broadly similar results. Since they can (generally) fling around the same magnitudes of energy in relatively short timeframes, actual firepower is irrelevant (If for no other reason they'll construct fuckoff huge missiles to fling at one another.)

Inhabited Territory is also of limited use. Protoss make extensive use of robotics, and we know SW has robotic armies (even if they don't always use them.) so squishy organics are probably a secondary concern. SW obviously has an edge here, but it is not an insurmountable one given the robotics/computers ability existing. So all that really matters in territorial terms is how much raw material you got floating around (dead planets, asteroid belts, etc.) to build with. I suspect that for the most part, neither side will have a significant advantage over the other in this regard (although I'm sure there will be plenty of nitpicking there, one way or another.)

Culturally: Both are generally under-militarized for their supposed scale, and more or less stagnant unless pushed. SW is no different in this regard from the Protoss (And if anyone disagrees, explain to me why they aren't flinging hyperspace equipped warheads at each other from light minutes/hours away.)

Given the above, there are (broadly) two major factors that will dictate a win:

1.) the construction/fabrication capabilities of the two powers, both in speed and in terms of scale.

2.) Their willingness to use it. Basically means how quickly they are likely to get off their asses and how long before they are likely to go all out (if neccessary.) The opposite of 'stagnating and under-militarized' basically.

The Death Star obviously stands as one example of the first point for STar Wars, and possibly point 2 (although not neccesarily the upper limit as far as the second point)

The question is, what do the Protoss bring to the table in regards to both?
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Tanasinn wrote:
Purple wrote: On a side note, Terran rifles don't seem to be that much superior to modern weapons (but I am not fluff expert)
If you believe the old manual fluff (and with Blizzard's terribly inconsistent writing, god help you if you do), their infantry rifle is a gauss rifle firing 8mm slugs that'll go through 2 inches of their equivalent of modern steel.
I believe the 2 inches of neosteel was from some website featuring alternate maps (although I think it was still canonical.) I don't remember that it was an Impaler specifically, rather than a gauss weapon in general.

Gauss firepower ranges anywhere from being comparable (at least in KE terms) to a full powered rifle round (say 7.62x51mm) to .50 BMG or greater depending on calcs. I've done the .50 BMG calcs myself in the past, but that runs into messy problems with recoil (several instances of non-armored troops using Impalers without flying back) as well as consistency (being described as magnetic accelerators in text, yet clearly being cased, chem propelled weapons in visual media, and sometimes in text as well.) They also have (roughly) 2-3x the potential ROF of modern firearms and commensuraetly greater ammo capacity (something like 10-15x modern rifles.)

Disregarding the slugthrower issues, the exact calcs hinge on where you figure the mass of the spikes is (and the density being used.) The .50 BMG-equivalent calcs, for example, often assume the spike is equal to a real life 7.62x51mm in weight.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Simon_Jester »

Purple wrote:The issue with the protos is that they have no proper ranged units.
Their line infantry is shielded and armored enough to take hits from a howitzer and stay a live but I doubt they could run into a line of storm troopers with e-webs set up. And their only ranged weapons are artillery units or light armor like the dragon.
If the stormtroopers have drastic numerical superiority or make much better use of terrain, yeah they'd probably fry zealots in the open field. If not... could be tricky. It's not as if Star Wars armies haven't had problems before with guys who are nigh-immune to small arms fire and wield big glowing swords in battle.

Also, their dragoons are light armor, but they come in fairly significant quantities, at least in the SC1 era. Costwise, we see them fielded fairly often, and show up frequently in support of zealot units. So I'm not sure we should rule them out of the picture.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Zealots are a bit of a joke IMHO in an in-universe context. The fluff says the Protoss are not numerous or prone to procreation, yet their primary offensive unit is strictly melee with no ranged capability whatsoever. Yes, they have shielding and powered armor (and SC2 had a proposed teleportational ability though I'm not sure its still valid) to mitigate that somewhat, but they still have no ranged capability. This is despite the fact they give Dragoons (and Immortals, or whatever the SC2 unit) and other units ranged weaponry (but no close in capacity.) Out of universe we know its "game balance" cuz its an RTS game. But it makes no real logical sense in universe - the only real excuse you can give is cultural ones. (Which works for in-universe and may allow for them to change, but it still doesn't make it any less silly.)
The fannish explanation is that Zealots really are that good in a fight- their life expectancy on the battlefield is long because of the quality of their equipment and the skill with which they're fielded against their usual opponents, even given that using big arm-mounted lightsabers instead of guns should put them at a huge disadvantage.

The obvious analogies are from WH40k, and it's a commonplace that Starcraft draws some inspiration from there.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Simon_Jester wrote:]If the stormtroopers have drastic numerical superiority or make much better use of terrain, yeah they'd probably fry zealots in the open field. If not... could be tricky. It's not as if Star Wars armies haven't had problems before with guys who are nigh-immune to small arms fire and wield big glowing swords in battle.
Jedi aren't all the same, and not all of them are immune to ranged weaponry due to precog lightsaber (some quite actually suck at it, as we see in the movies.) Hell, it was routinely believed during my days spent back on SB that all you needed to kill a (movie) Jedi was either to fire a shotgun at them or use an assault rifle.

Secondly, what makes us think that Protoss Zealots would be routinely capable of the sorts of tricks that woudl allow them to deflect or ignore gunfire? Have they used psyblades routinely to deflect shots? Do they have TK skills? Precog? That matters quite a bit for the comparison.

The fannish explanation is that Zealots really are that good in a fight- their life expectancy on the battlefield is long because of the quality of their equipment and the skill with which they're fielded against their usual opponents, even given that using big arm-mounted lightsabers instead of guns should put them at a huge disadvantage.
Even assuming the perceived level of capability exists, how does this invalidate what I said? You can still take the best melee fighter in the world and he's still ineffective if he cant' get close enough. Maybe they can finagle ways to use their tech to overcome this (using drop ships with more heavy guns to provide the fire support and deploy zealots close up/provide protection on the approach) but that still won't excuse the lack of ranged weapons (especially since almost any other unit in SC gets a ranged attack. Hell even the Drones have particle beam weapons.

It's even more glaring in light of the fact they apparently didn't change this in Star Craft 2 (at least not yet.)
The obvious analogies are from WH40k, and it's a commonplace that Starcraft draws some inspiration from there.
That still doesn't quite work. Even with Space Marines or Orks (whoa re more melee oriented) you still get plenty of ranged capability built in. Assault Marines have bolt pistols and grenades (and come with jump packs to enhance mobility) as well as melee weapons, for example. If anything that should make the Protoss zealots lack of any ranged capability more of a drawback.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Imperial528 »

Well, one thing they added in StarCraft II was a teleportation-charge ability to the Zealot, so that it can literally appear in the enemy's face.

The way I've always seen it is that Zealots are there to keep enemies from overwhelming Dragoons, their part in the battle is to serve as front-line bullet sponges so the powerful ranged units can devastate enemy ranks. Zealot armor even has a built-in emergency teleporter for escaping when the Zealot is in real danger, supporting the idea that they're supposed to go in, hack-and-slash while getting the enemies' attention, and let the Dragoons do the real work.

EDIT: According to the SC wiki, although it is a wiki, so take this with a grain of salt, Zealots do have precognition abilities, which they gain from their psionic abilities.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Simon_Jester wrote:Objectively, Protoss Zealots are good enough to go mano a mano with guys in power armor who carry what, by all appearances, are effective automatic rifles. Terran Marines may not be the greatest troops in fiction, but there's nothing about how they're portrayed that makes us expect them to be pushovers. We can't just say "LOL redshirts" and dismiss the Zealots' performance.

Remember Jedi? They, too, are psychic warriors who use big glowing swords. They, too, seem to be able to keep up with the guys armed with guns. We do not assume the Jedi are weak because "objectively" they are men with big glowing swords fighting men with guns, because "objectively" men with guns who tangle with Jedi at one to one odds usually wind up with their head rolling in the dirt.[

Now, we can dispute why Zealots manage to do this. Me, I'd chalk it up to energy shields. If we're going by game mechanics, those things can soak up a hit from a large-caliber howitzer and leave the wearer intact (er, once). That gives them a lot of options that would not be viable for melee troops under normal conditions- not even for Star Wars Jedi, since Jedi can't ignore shrapnel as easily as Zealots can.
Jedi have a much larger range of magical abilities than Zealots which allow them to do what they do, such as using telekinesis to stop shrapnel (i.e. Republic Commando: Hard Contact); a Zealot has his shields, and when it's gone he's shit outta luck. Furthermore, Jedi are not the Republic's main frontline troops. In war time they take general or special forces roles, often lead their troops directly into battle, but that's a whole different order than the Republic arming their Clonetroopers with only lightsabers. Zealots, meanwhile, end up needlessly dying not only on suicidal frontal charges on open ground, but also in close confined areas, simply because they have no other way to get at their enemy.

Anyways, this comes from "Revelation," which was written by Chris Metzen, one of the top chiefs at Blizzard
The [zerglings] suddenly sprang at the two Protoss with their multiple talons and glistening fangs bared. Within a fraction of a heartbeat, burning blades of azure energy sprang forth from the warriors' gauntlets. With a blinding flash of blue fire, the first of the attacking aliens was cut down in midair by the Protoss' swift attack. The other two aliens, surprised by the savagery of the strike, attempted to slow their advance and skittered around the warriors. Yet one of the Protoss gracefully leaped ahead of the second creature and tore through its skull with his fiery blades. The other Protoss warrior, stepping in to protect his comrade's flank, outmaneuvered the third creature and split it in two with a powerful blow.

The [hydralisk's] massive tail swept out and crashed into one of the warriors. Madrid watched in awe as the Protoss flew across the room and smashed into the far wall. Its limp body punched a hole through the paristeel plating, weakening the wall and causing more rubble to topple into the room from above.

Without a second glance, the remaining warrior turned to confront the [hydralisk]. Madrid's eyes focused on the monster's shoulder plates, which began to heave and swell. The tiny, hairline fractures expanded and split to reveal row upon row of sharp, finger-sized needles. With a massive surge of stale air and a flurry of sickly squirting noises, the [hydralisk] flexed its torso muscles and let loose a volley of poisoned spines from its shoulders. The spines flew toward the warrior, yet the Protoss stood his ground without even a flinch as the speeding needles shattered against an invisible barrier before they reached him.

Madrid was flabbergasted. Not one of the spines had even grazed the warrior's body. He noticed a slight blur and an azure flicker around the form of the Protoss. The warrior seemed to be protected by some sort of energy field, but the blue light was twinkling as though the field might have been weakened. The [hydralisk] seemed to consider its next move for a moment, then fired another volley at its enemy. With the grace and skills of an acrobat, the Protoss tumbled and leaped out of harm's way, evading the spines as they tore through the reinforced wall behind him.

The [hydralisk] spun around, but was too slow to react as the warrior kept tumbling and then leaped upon its armored back. The creature flailed in protest, desperately trying to buck the Protoss from its body.

Igniting his energy blades and pulling one arm back, the warrior seemed ready to separate the creature's head from its neck - but suddenly, one of the creature's scythelike arms swung around and skewered him through the midsection. Madrid saw a weak flash of blue as the last of the warrior's shield energy dissipated. The stunned Protoss took a final desperate swing and severed the arm that was buried in its torso. Hissing in rage and pain, the creature drove its remaining arm into the warrior's armored chest. The Protoss's body, wracked with violent spasms, went limp after a final, heaving shudder. The smoldering azure light in its glassy eyes slowly faded to blackness.

...

The wounded beast, visibly shuddering under its heavy carapace, attempted to slither toward the room's exit. The creature abruptly stopped and turned back tot he far side of the room, sniffing the air. Slowly, the Protoss warrior whom it had flung across the room rose from the rubble.

The Protoss's eyes scanned the room and came to rest upon the crumpled body of his comrade. The creature flexed its huge shoulders, and a hundred needles shot out at the warrior. The Protoss whirled at the sound of the expulsion and was slowed by the tiny blades that tore at his flesh and embedded themselves in his worn armor.

Bleeding immediately from dozens of wounds, the warrior faltered slightly as the spines' poison spread throughout his system. With grim resolve, he inched toward his enemy. The frayed [hydralisk], with no projectiles left, swung its remaining scythe-arm at the Protoss. The warrior blocked the clumsy attack and thrust his energy blade up into the beast's soft underbelly. The creature screamed in agony as the Protoss worked his blade deeper into its shuddering body.

...

At last, the warrior extinguished the blade and pulled it out of the creature. Though it was mortally wounded, the creature continued to thrash and hiss as it towered weakly above the Protoss. Taking hold of the creature's splintered rib cage with both hands, the warrior gave a great heave and lifted its massive girth from the ground. Madrid marveled at the warrior's strength as it flung the [hydralisk] over his shoulder. The heavy body hit the floor with a wet smack and lay still.
Now Hydralisk spines are suppose to be able to go through 2cm of Neosteel, though they've had some poor showings in the novels, but even so it only took a volley to weaken the Protoss' shields enough to finish it off and the other one lost his after a good whack and crash through the wall. Imperial infantry support weapons, or simply massed small arms fire, should be more than capable of taking them out as good if not better than Terran and Zerg methods.
]In principle, yes. A lot depends on the exact economic details- how much does the teleporter cost, how much is each kilogram of gas worth, how far must it be transported, and so on. We don't know these details and have only extremely crude and possibly misleading information on the subject. I don't think it's a good plan to work from that basis, when we have the obvious alternate explanation that "teleport refineries" are used in combat, because they are less vulnerable to enemy attack.
It seems we might be talking past each other. The point is the Protoss never developed transporter refineries even for situations where they would make sense, like combat. Egon chalks it up to either their "lack of Terran creativity and pragmatism, or possibly their primitive superstitions forbid the practice." Our lack of information leaves few other conclusions.
The obvious analogies are from WH40k, and it's a commonplace that Starcraft draws some inspiration from there.
Yeah, but their 40k analogues typically having ranged as well as close combat weapons, or simply a better way of getting within striking distance, i.e. Necron Wraith's phasing.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Balrog »

Imperial528 wrote: Um, what? I can understand how on the heavier end of the spectrum, the Empire would have superiority (The Protoss never really did make massive weapons of war, due to their peaceful culture, and we don't exactly have numbers on that end for the Protoss, either), but Protoss space forces are at least low-end Wars figures*, and their ground forces on the lighter end of the spectrum definitely best the Empire's ground forces.**
On the ground, a Zealot might be tougher to kill individually than a Stormtrooper, but the discrepancy is not insurmountable; indeed, if Terran Marines can do it, so can the Stormtroopers. The Stormies not only have ranged weapons, but support weapons as well, like missile launchers and mortars. Zealots are completely dependent upon heavy forces for ranged firepower. Unless the Zealots can force them to fight on favorable terrain (never a given) or simply outnumber them ( :lol: ), they're at a disadvantage. Dragoons compare favorably with other light Imperial walkers; the Dragoon thread from awhile back gave them respectable firepower. However the Protoss completely lack any sort of heavy armor, which the Imperials have in spades in walker, wheeled and hover varieties. They only have two means of artillery support, High Templars and Reavers. The former can be snipped, the latter requires line of sight, and neither are significantly better than Imperial methods; both are capable of taking out "dozens" of targets close together in pitched battle.

We don't know much about Scouts, but the fact that they can be threatened by Mutalisks and Wraiths puts them at a disadvantage to Imperial fighters. Their means of normal transport is completely unarmed, and they lack any sort of bombers or other specialized small craft. Carriers are particularly vulnerable; one of them gets taken out by two simultaneous Yamato blasts in SotXN, another is taken out by hundreds of Zerg flyers ramming it in Liberty's Crusade. The Protoss have an unknown number of "supercarriers" like the Gantrithor which do carry weapons and can take out "squadrons" of Battlecruisers, but it's unlikely they that much more dangerous as to turn the tide in a war. Arbiters have a number of abilities which will prove useful, but unless they're stupidly more protected than Carriers they should be destroyed in battle easily enough.

The Colossus machines are still buried away, as are the Motherships, and there are none of the Dark Templar or other kewl stuff from SC2. Like the Imperials, the Protoss are liable to doing stupid shit due to political considerations: see the Conclave sending a force galavanting off to arrest Tassadar in the middle of the Zerg invasion. The Protoss have a strategic speed advantage thanks to their warp tech, but by and large much of it is reliant upon physical structures occupying the area, something the Imperials can counter by blowing their stuff up. Protoss industry is highly centralized, which despite its advantages means that if the Imperials ever get around to wrecking Aiur, the Protoss are shit outta luck unless they make friends with the Dark Templar real soon.

In the original scenario, the Imperials have a mind-numbingly huge material advantage which simply renders all other considerations moot; with the new one, they still have the numbers advantage, and as outlined above the difference in ability between each side is not favorable enough to the Protoss to ignore that advantage. That's why I said the Imperials in general are still superior.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Simon_Jester »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Jedi aren't all the same, and not all of them are immune to ranged weaponry due to precog lightsaber (some quite actually suck at it, as we see in the movies.) Hell, it was routinely believed during my days spent back on SB that all you needed to kill a (movie) Jedi was either to fire a shotgun at them or use an assault rifle.

Secondly, what makes us think that Protoss Zealots would be routinely capable of the sorts of tricks that woudl allow them to deflect or ignore gunfire? Have they used psyblades routinely to deflect shots? Do they have TK skills? Precog? That matters quite a bit for the comparison.
They don't have or need any of the above; they have personal shields. Pretty good ones, by all accounts I'm familiar with.

Protoss and Jedi get their resistance to small arms fire from very different sources, and ones that are vulnerable to different counters (a round of birdshot might be reasonably effective against Jedi who don't get enough precognitive warning to get out of the way, but not all that effective against Protoss Zealots, for instance). But the basic point remains that Zealots are a lot more dangerous than "LOL swords" leads one to believe, given their performance in the game against well-armed opponents who do seem to use reasonably logical tactics.

This isn't like Klingons against redshirts, where the redshirts lose more because of their own mistakes than anything else.
The fannish explanation is that Zealots really are that good in a fight- their life expectancy on the battlefield is long because of the quality of their equipment and the skill with which they're fielded against their usual opponents, even given that using big arm-mounted lightsabers instead of guns should put them at a huge disadvantage.
Even assuming the perceived level of capability exists, how does this invalidate what I said? You can still take the best melee fighter in the world and he's still ineffective if he cant' get close enough. Maybe they can finagle ways to use their tech to overcome this (using drop ships with more heavy guns to provide the fire support and deploy zealots close up/provide protection on the approach) but that still won't excuse the lack of ranged weapons (especially since almost any other unit in SC gets a ranged attack. Hell even the Drones have particle beam weapons.

It's even more glaring in light of the fact they apparently didn't change this in Star Craft 2 (at least not yet.)
Connor, what exactly is your point here?

Is your point "I think the Protoss should stop giving their frontline infantry lightsabers and start giving them ray guns?" That's a reasonable thing to say, but is kind of irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your point "The Protoss would lose in battle against an opponent who made large-scale use of ranged weapons and artillery, because their frontline infantry use lightsabers?" Because that's not true in the setting- they try it, and they sometimes lose, but sometimes win.

Is your point "The Protoss would lose against someone with Star Wars weapons because their frontline infantry use lightsabers?" That's somewhat more sustainable, I suppose.
The obvious analogies are from WH40k, and it's a commonplace that Starcraft draws some inspiration from there.
That still doesn't quite work. Even with Space Marines or Orks (whoa re more melee oriented) you still get plenty of ranged capability built in. Assault Marines have bolt pistols and grenades (and come with jump packs to enhance mobility) as well as melee weapons, for example. If anything that should make the Protoss zealots lack of any ranged capability more of a drawback.
The capability is there... and yet orks routinely charge into hand to hand with axes preferentially to firing their guns. They manage it, though they die in large numbers.

And yet Space Marines also do this under some conditions- usually when they're relying on the quality of their armor protection to make them effectively immune to the enemy's weapons. It's rarer for them, they do have and use ranged weapons, I know this.

But I think it's premature to say "Zealots use melee weapons they must stink" when everything in the Starcraft setting suggests the opposite: that in spite of using only lightsaber-equivalent weapons, they manage to function quite well as the Protoss' front line forces, even against the guys with automatic rifles and artillery and all the other things we normally expect to smash melee troops flat. Guys who use those weapons with some reasonable semblance of competence, as we see all the time in the setting.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Imperial528 »

Balrog wrote: On the ground, a Zealot might be tougher to kill individually than a Stormtrooper, but the discrepancy is not insurmountable; indeed, if Terran Marines can do it, so can the Stormtroopers. The Stormies not only have ranged weapons, but support weapons as well, like missile launchers and mortars. Zealots are completely dependent upon heavy forces for ranged firepower. Unless the Zealots can force them to fight on favorable terrain (never a given) or simply outnumber them ( :lol: ), they're at a disadvantage. Dragoons compare favorably with other light Imperial walkers; the Dragoon thread from awhile back gave them respectable firepower.
And Dragoons serve as light armor and infantry support, all a Zealot need to do when going up against Stormtroopers is take shots that would otherwise hit a dragoon, and get close to do some real damage. Dragoons and reavers can take care of the support weapons, and once a Zealot group closes on a Stormtrooper group, I'm sure the Stormtroopers will be slaughtered wholesale.
However the Protoss completely lack any sort of heavy armor, which the Imperials have in spades in walker, wheeled and hover varieties. They only have two means of artillery support, High Templars and Reavers. The former can be snipped, the latter requires line of sight, and neither are significantly better than Imperial methods; both are capable of taking out "dozens" of targets close together in pitched battle.
Archons definitely qualify as heavy armor, as they are ranged (not a large range, but more than Zealots), and their shields can take a very heavy beating. I doubt that Reavers are LOS in-universe, since they fire tracking-bombs, they only reason they're LOS in game is due to game mechanics (Every unit is LOS in-game).
You're really glossing over Templar shield strength, here, it's unknown how powerful they are, but they're at about the same level as Zealot shielding, IIRC, and I really doubt it'd be so easy to simply snipe one. Ofc, there's also their hallucination ability, which would easily confuse enemy troops.
We don't know much about Scouts, but the fact that they can be threatened by Mutalisks and Wraiths puts them at a disadvantage to Imperial fighters.
According to the fluff, scouts are low-end by Protoss standards, they only deploy them against the Zerg and Terrans because Protoss firepower is greatly superior.

Their means of normal transport is completely unarmed, and they lack any sort of bombers or other specialized small craft.
Carriers are particularly vulnerable; one of them gets taken out by two simultaneous Yamato blasts in SotXN, another is taken out by hundreds of Zerg flyers ramming it in Liberty's Crusade. The Protoss have an unknown number of "supercarriers" like the Gantrithor which do carry weapons and can take out "squadrons" of Battlecruisers, but it's unlikely they that much more dangerous as to turn the tide in a war. Arbiters have a number of abilities which will prove useful, but unless they're stupidly more protected than Carriers they should be destroyed in battle easily enough.
You're missing something here: We don't know Yamato gun firepower, only that it is a projected nuclear explosion. Carriers are, in fact, armed with spinal energy weapons, which are usually used for Purification, and have a very significant firepower, according to calculations based on the bombardments of Braxis and Urona Sigma, I actually got a yield of 34-123 gigatons per second for the energy weapon, and I will happily provide my calculations for review should you so wish.
And it's funny that you mention Arbiters and then proceed to ignore their abilities outright. They can trap enemy ships and soldiers alike in stasis prisms at whim, and they can warp reinforcements to their location at any given moment. I'd like to see an ISD try to overcome an arbiter when the crew suddenly finds a large stasis crystal has encased their weapons.
The Colossus machines are still buried away, as are the Motherships, and there are none of the Dark Templar or other kewl stuff from SC2. Like the Imperials, the Protoss are liable to doing stupid shit due to political considerations: see the Conclave sending a force galavanting off to arrest Tassadar in the middle of the Zerg invasion. The Protoss have a strategic speed advantage thanks to their warp tech, but by and large much of it is reliant upon physical structures occupying the area, something the Imperials can counter by blowing their stuff up. Protoss industry is highly centralized, which despite its advantages means that if the Imperials ever get around to wrecking Aiur, the Protoss are shit outta luck unless they make friends with the Dark Templar real soon.
The majority of Protoss industry isn't focused on Aiur. Aiur does, yes, have a large amount of important infrastructure (Such as the primary facilities to make Dragoons), but the fact that during the Brood War and the events of SCII the Protoss can still run their war machine effectively means that their colonies' industry can pick up the slack.
In the original scenario, the Imperials have a mind-numbingly huge material advantage which simply renders all other considerations moot; with the new one, they still have the numbers advantage, and as outlined above the difference in ability between each side is not favorable enough to the Protoss to ignore that advantage. That's why I said the Imperials in general are still superior.
Numerical advantage doesn't equal superior capabilities, except in logistics and total industry ofc.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Balrog »

Imperial528 wrote:And Dragoons serve as light armor and infantry support, all a Zealot need to do when going up against Stormtroopers is take shots that would otherwise hit a dragoon, and get close to do some real damage. Dragoons and reavers can take care of the support weapons, and once a Zealot group closes on a Stormtrooper group, I'm sure the Stormtroopers will be slaughtered wholesale.
You're not getting it. Imperial infantry can hit above its weight without requiring large platforms thanks to weapons for which the Protoss have no counterpart. Zealots without Dragoons are screwed against vehicles. Imperials without vehicles can still threaten them with rocket launchers and such. And again, the fact that they normally carry small arms to begin with gives them the advantage in all but Zealot-friendly situations.
Archons definitely qualify as heavy armor
The minute you can actually quantify that statement, be my guest.
I doubt that Reavers are LOS in-universe, since they fire tracking-bombs, they only reason they're LOS in game is due to game mechanics (Every unit is LOS in-game).
No, they're not all like that. A Siege tank in siege mode for example can hit models it cannot see (it's sight range is actually less than its weapon range), so long as some other unit is acting as spotter.
You're really glossing over Templar shield strength, here, it's unknown how powerful they are, but they're at about the same level as Zealot shielding, IIRC, and I really doubt it'd be so easy to simply snipe one. Ofc, there's also their hallucination ability, which would easily confuse enemy troops.
Unless HTs have shields which are significantly better than Zealots, they were will be vulnerable to sniping, whether it's from actual snipers or simply directing heavy weapons upon them.
According to the fluff, scouts are low-end by Protoss standards, they only deploy them against the Zerg and Terrans because Protoss firepower is greatly superior.
I'm not seeing anything contradicting what I said, which makes them weak against Imperial fighters.
You're missing something here: We don't know Yamato gun firepower, only that it is a projected nuclear explosion. Carriers are, in fact, armed with spinal energy weapons, which are usually used for Purification, and have a very significant firepower, according to calculations based on the bombardments of Braxis and Urona Sigma, I actually got a yield of 34-123 gigatons per second for the energy weapon, and I will happily provide my calculations for review should you so wish.
According to all the sources, it's a small nuclear bomb. We have a measurable example from Speed of Darkness where a tactical nuke takes out a town and a Marine squad 3km away takes cover and survives the blast. Depending on how you want to interpret the event, the bomb was somewhere between a few hundred kilotons to single digit megatons. Now, unless you think the Terrans classify "small" nuclear devices to include something bigger than megatons and want to ignore everything else like Carriers dying to suicide Zerg attacks, that makes them very vulnerable to Imperial ships. Again, only the supercarriers are armed, normal Carriers have no weapons, and at best that makes them equal to Imperial ships.
And it's funny that you mention Arbiters and then proceed to ignore their abilities outright. They can trap enemy ships and soldiers alike in stasis prisms at whim, and they can warp reinforcements to their location at any given moment. I'd like to see an ISD try to overcome an arbiter when the crew suddenly finds a large stasis crystal has encased their weapons.
Um, I didn't? None of their abilities are enough though to make up for deficiencies elsewhere. Stasis only lasts a short time; Recall has great applications but limited to friendly movements; and cloak, assuming it works against Imperial sensors, can be broken by blowing up the Arbiter.
The majority of Protoss industry isn't focused on Aiur. Aiur does, yes, have a large amount of important infrastructure (Such as the primary facilities to make Dragoons), but the fact that during the Brood War and the events of SCII the Protoss can still run their war machine effectively means that their colonies' industry can pick up the slack.
Yes, it is; did you not read the quotes on the last page? The Protoss have survived thanks to the fact that Shakuras has some production facilities, and they still had to go dig up old weapons systems.
Numerical advantage doesn't equal superior capabilities, except in logistics and total industry ofc.
Again, as I outlined, the Protoss are either at a disadvantage, or at best equivalent to their Imperial counterparts. The Imperials on the whole are generally better.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Purple »

Imperial528 wrote:And Dragoons serve as light armor and infantry support, all a Zealot need to do when going up against Stormtroopers is take shots that would otherwise hit a dragoon, and get close to do some real damage. Dragoons and reavers can take care of the support weapons, and once a Zealot group closes on a Stormtrooper group, I'm sure the Stormtroopers will be slaughtered wholesale.
You are missing the point here.
Dragons are about the equivalent of AT-ST/AT-PT vehicles or in modern terms something like an assault gun.

From what we know from games and other sources their primary weapon is a projectile that has a slow rate of fire (a modern hand loaded artillery piece shoots faster than those things do in the games), limited range and no area effect.

Meanwhile, even if given an adequate dragon presence the Protos still have nothing comparable to grenade and missile launchers, machine guns or even small arms. Their army is literally composed of shielded swordsman, light artillery and nothing in between. The only reason this works for them in universe is that the other factions are equally stupid in that sense.

What this all means is that the only way they can win is if they have the initiative to pick and chose their own battles. If a Protos force gets drawn onto a stronghold, urban warfare or any other location where their dragons can be taken out they will rapidly be overwhelmed by an even slightly competent opponent who can use modern military tactics.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Norade »

Not to mention that against anything remotely fortified the Zealots won't even make combat. Setting up a simple guard tower with retractable ladder and you can sip drinks while killing as many Zealots as you have ammo for. Thing like digging a wide deep trench and standing behind it while pointing and laughing would also work.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Norade wrote:Not to mention that against anything remotely fortified the Zealots won't even make combat. Setting up a simple guard tower with retractable ladder and you can sip drinks while killing as many Zealots as you have ammo for. Thing like digging a wide deep trench and standing behind it while pointing and laughing would also work.
What about "stalkers" ?

I see them as basically personal power armour, they attack air and ground, and have the "blink' option for, oh, getting across a wide deep trench.

That said, reading this thread reminds me of why putting any game into a setting like SW often ends u being silly, because for the urpose of the game, many common sense items have to be ignored.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Purple »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
Norade wrote:Not to mention that against anything remotely fortified the Zealots won't even make combat. Setting up a simple guard tower with retractable ladder and you can sip drinks while killing as many Zealots as you have ammo for. Thing like digging a wide deep trench and standing behind it while pointing and laughing would also work.
What about "stalkers" ?

I see them as basically personal power armour, they attack air and ground, and have the "blink' option for, oh, getting across a wide deep trench.

That said, reading this thread reminds me of why putting any game into a setting like SW often ends u being silly, because for the urpose of the game, many common sense items have to be ignored.
Two trenches, one within the other with a mine field in between. He has to recharge between jumps right?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

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Purple wrote:From what we know from games and other sources their primary weapon is a projectile that has a slow rate of fire (a modern hand loaded artillery piece shoots faster than those things do in the games), limited range and no area effect.

Meanwhile, even if given an adequate dragon presence the Protos still have nothing comparable to grenade and missile launchers, machine guns or even small arms. Their army is literally composed of shielded swordsman, light artillery and nothing in between.

Maybe I don't understand what "light artillery" is. In-game, the reaver has the greatest range of all ground units - outranging even the stationary bombardment siege-tank (with its arclite shock-cannon). It lobs devastating area-of-effect explosive scarabs. How is that not comparable to a grenadier/missile launcher? Especially when you research the bonus damage upgrade and use a shuttle to vastly improve its survivability/mobility?

We know that the Protoss are capable of aerial bombardment per SC1's story too, yes? Then you've got the psi-storm wielding high-templar (let's think of them as "flamethrowers"), which later turn into archons (heavy area-of-effect blast damage in a large radius hitting both air and ground). Archons are neither swordsmen, nor light artillery.
Also, we don't know the upper limit of the dark archon mind-control ability. That said:
1.) It works at one of the highest in-game ranges (equal to reaver, greater than siege tank, IIRC).
2.) It acts instantly, though it takes quite a while to "charge up".
3.) It can be used against an individual (like a marine), a group of individuals (the crew-complement of a battlecruiser), and when used against transports it ALSO converts the ENTIRE crew! Further, in-game, any research that the opposing army had done with those troops is added to your ability list [not sure how that would carry over to an SW v SC scenario].
4.) Unlike the sith/jedi of Star Wars which are very few in number after SW: RotJ, Dark Archons can be trained/produced en-mass from the moment the Protoss first touched-down on Shakuras. The point being that while it's hard to make a case for jedi/sith being deployed in large numbers during every fight, this is routinely done with Dark Archons for any engagement that lasts over an in-game half-hour.

While I wouldn't say the Protoss as shown in-game have the full range of modern weaponry, I think you're selling them way short by saying they're just small arms and swords w/o area-of-effect.


As an aside, I'm only aware of the gameplay and campaigns of SC1 and SC2 - do we have any higher cannon references in the books/manual to Dark Archon mind control that can help to establish upper/lower limits?
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Purple »

Sela wrote:Maybe I don't understand what "light artillery" is. In-game, the reaver...
Well for a start look up my post and note how me quoting the relevant passage about dragons clearly indicates me talking about dragons and not reavers.

As for the reaver...
In-game, the reaver...[/ has the greatest range of all ground units - outranging even the stationary bombardment siege-tank (with its arclite shock-cannon). It lobs devastating area-of-effect explosive scarabs. How is that not comparable to a grenadier/missile launcher? Especially when you research the bonus damage upgrade and use a shuttle to vastly improve its survivability/mobility?
It is in no way compatible to a grenadier/missile launcher. In fact if I had to draw a modern day parallel it would be a field gun or maybe a field howitzer. The cost, late availability, slow speed when not transported, range, firepower and other factors clearly speak in favor of it being a large artillery unit and not a squad support weapon. Especially the fact that it is not carried by a single zelot but mounted on a vehicle the size of a large APC.
We know that the Protoss are capable of aerial bombardment per SC1's story too, yes?
The only areal bombardments I am aware of are the planetary purging they did. And that quite honestly leaves a lot to be desired in terms of accuracy and collateral damage. Do not equate BDZ operations with close air support.
Then you've got the psi-storm wielding high-templar (let's think of them as "flamethrowers"), which later turn into archons (heavy area-of-effect blast damage in a large radius hitting both air and ground).
The templar are a late game spellcaster unit compatible in their cost, time of availability and other factors (including fluff) to modern special forces.

Yes they have some great abilities but imagine if a modern infantry unit had to call in the navy seals to get acces to hand grenades and hell even rifles.
Archons are neither swordsmen, nor light artillery.

Again, extreme late game unit. Furthermore the sheer cost of the archon makes it problematic to see him acting in the squad support role. If anything the archon again would be special forces units equivalents.
While I wouldn't say the Protoss as shown in-game have the full range of modern weaponry, I think you're selling them way short by saying they're just small arms and swords w/o area-of-effect.
Fact remains that for most of a battle the Protos army is relegated to using mele units and light armor. They are only able to bring up artillery and heavy support much later in the game. And this is something any competent modern force has at the squad and company level.

This means they reject the basic principals of modern strategy and combined arms combat in favor of a doctrine abandoned ages ago.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Protoss vs Galactic Empire

Post by Simon_Jester »

By the same argument so does practically everyone else in any video game ever.

Purple, try and get it through your head that a computer game will always have to portray a limited, simplistic version of a national military, one which is lacking in various kinds of support weapons and tactical options. There is simply no way to avoid this. Until someone creates a perfect computer simulation of land warfare (one which would likely be far less enjoyable than many of the entertainment products now on the market), assuming that the tactical options of the faction portrayed by the game are strictly limited to what appears in the game is ridiculous.

I mean, we see Protoss fighters- the "Scouts." They clearly carry air to air missiles and light ground attack guns. But why do we assume they can't carry bombs for close air support? They don't carry such bombs in the game... but is that because the Protoss refuse to use aerial bombardment, or just because in-game, Scouts are meant as a cost-effective way to neutralize enemy air units, rather than being dedicated ground-attack platforms?
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