Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by Xisiqomelir »

Psych! It's *SBS* Dateline!

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This is a general sort of corroboration of the China short thesis posited by James Chanos (he of Enron and Baldwin United fame), Andy Xie and Hugh Hendry.

Politico China Bust article from 2009
Is China headed toward collapse?
By: Eamon Javers
November 10, 2009 05:19 AM EDT

The conventional wisdom in Washington and in most of the rest of the world is that the roaring Chinese economy is going to pull the global economy out of recession and back into growth. It’s China’s turn, the theory goes, as American consumers — who propelled the last global boom with their borrowing and spending ways — have begun to tighten their belts and increase savings rates.

The Chinese, with their unbridled capitalistic expansion propelled by a system they still refer to as “socialism with Chinese characteristics,” are still thriving, though, with annual gross domestic product growth of 8.9 percent in the third quarter and a domestic consumer market just starting to flex its enormous muscles.

That’s prompted some cheerleading from U.S. officials, who want to see those Chinese consumers begin to pick up the slack in the global economy — a theme President Barack Obama and his delegation are certain to bring up during next week’s visit to China.

“Purchases of U.S. consumers cannot be as dominant a driver of growth as they have been in the past,” Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said during a trip to Beijing this spring. “In China, ... growth that is sustainable will require a very substantial shift from external to domestic demand, from an investment and export-intensive growth to growth led by consumption.”

That’s one vision of the future.

But there’s a growing group of market professionals who see a different picture altogether. These self-styled China bears take the less popular view: that the much-vaunted Chinese economic miracle is nothing but a paper dragon. In fact, they argue that the Chinese have dangerously overheated their economy, building malls, luxury stores and infrastructure for which there is almost no demand, and that the entire system is teetering toward collapse.

A Chinese collapse, of course, would have profound effects on the United States, limiting China’s ability to buy U.S. debt and provoking unknown political changes inside the Chinese regime.

The China bears could be dismissed as a bunch of cranks and grumps except for one member of the group: hedge fund investor Jim Chanos.

Chanos, a billionaire, is the founder of the investment firm Kynikos Associates and a famous short seller — an investor who scrutinizes companies looking for hidden flaws and then bets against those firms in the market.

His most famous call came in 2001, when Chanos was one of the first to figure out that the accounting numbers presented to the public by Enron were pure fiction. Chanos began contacting Wall Street investment houses that were touting Enron’s stock. “We were struck by how many of them conceded that there was no way to analyze Enron but that investing in Enron was, instead, a ‘trust me’ story,” Chanos told a congressional committee in 2002.

Now, Chanos says he has found another “trust me” story: China. And he is moving to short the entire nation’s economy. Washington policymakers would do well to understand his argument, because if he’s right, the consequences will be felt here.

Chanos and the other bears point to several key pieces of evidence that China is heading for a crash.

First, they point to the enormous Chinese economic stimulus effort — with the government spending $900 billion to prop up a $4.3 trillion economy. “Yet China’s economy, for all the stimulus it has received in 11 months, is underperforming,” Gordon Chang, author of “The Coming Collapse of China,” wrote in Forbes at the end of October. “More important, it is unlikely that [third-quarter] expansion was anywhere near the claimed 8.9 percent.”

Chang argues that inconsistencies in Chinese official statistics — like the surging numbers for car sales but flat statistics for gasoline consumption — indicate that the Chinese are simply cooking their books. He speculates that Chinese state-run companies are buying fleets of cars and simply storing them in giant parking lots in order to generate apparent growth.

Another data point cited by the bears: overcapacity. For example, the Chinese already consume more cement than the rest of the world combined, at 1.4 billion tons per year. But they have dramatically ramped up their ability to produce even more in recent years, leading to an estimated spare capacity of about 340 million tons, which, according to a report prepared earlier this year by Pivot Capital Management, is more than the consumption in the U.S., India and Japan combined.

This, Chanos and others argue, is happening in sector after sector in the Chinese economy. And that means the Chinese are in danger of producing huge quantities of goods and products that they will be unable to sell.

The Pivot Capital report was extremely popular in Chanos’s office and concluded, “We believe the coming slowdown in China has the potential to be a similar watershed event for world markets as the reversal of the U.S. subprime and housing boom.”

And the bears also keep a close eye on anecdotal reports from the ground level in China, like a recent posting on a blog called The Peking Duck about shopping at Beijing’s “stunningly dysfunctional, catastrophic mall, called The Place.”

“I was shocked at what I saw,” the blogger wrote. “Fifty percent of the eateries in the basement were boarded up. The cheap food court, too, was gone, covered up with ugly blue boarding, making the basement especially grim and dreary. ... There is simply too much stuff, too many stores and no buyers.”
Charlie Rose interview with Chanos

Your thoughts, N&P? I do know about the recent spate of Chinese RTO meltdowns, but macro thoughts about China are a whole other story. Hendry says there could be renminbi devaluation, which I find somewhat mindblowing.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Is this news? I've read a couple of articles over the past few years saying that China was cooking it's books to the tune of almost 40% of their growth being purely on paper.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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RMB devaluation is crazy as an idea. "Macro thoughts about China collapsing" have been the business of every alarmist and sensationalist. It's still there (I mean the PRC). They have serious growth imbalances, but the amount of real, useful infrastructure and stuff they produce is staggering.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by montypython »

Block wrote:Is this news? I've read a couple of articles over the past few years saying that China was cooking it's books to the tune of almost 40% of their growth being purely on paper.
As Stas pointed out, it really is just sensationalism, for one thing the real issue has been of underreporting of Chinese economic growth and activity, rather than any spurious overcapacity.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Projection. OMG THEY SPEND ALL THIS MONEY ON...STIMULUS! From Forbes, what a surprise. I think it does not behoove the militarily over-extended arch-hegemon whose ruling class has all but de-industrialized its own nation in order to get more bonuses, and in the process financed the industrialization of China and handed over hand-over-fist all their intellectual property, while creating a housing crisis where I hear to this day has something like a fifth of American houses remain empty, Detroit cuts off social services to starve out its empty quarters, Colorado Springs cuts street lights to provide Rapetown, and we continue to hull out our social capital, to point fingers at China.

If they really wanted to talk about social rumblings in China, they would mention the enormous gulf in development between rural and urban areas, and the rising tide of labor struggles and riots among its hundreds-of-millions-sized industrial working class. But that might lead to some funny ideas back home, so its best not to discuss it too much.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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On another note, why the hell are people so obsessed with "picking up the slack in the global economy"? It sounds like stuffing your face full of iPods is some sort of gruesome hard work necessary for human survival.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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PeZook wrote:On another note, why the hell are people so obsessed with "picking up the slack in the global economy"? It sounds like stuffing your face full of iPods is some sort of gruesome hard work necessary for human survival.
Because... profits and incomes of certain people or bodies corporate fall if the slack is not picked up. So it's not people who are obsessed with stuffing their own face full of iPods, but the producers of said iPods and the investors who expect the consumption of iPods to rise. Regardless of whether it's really in the people's best interest.

Since they are exceptionally influential, the subservient media parrots these slogans.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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What happens if people become stingy and don't spend anything so they can save their monies? What happens to the global economy?
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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OMG IT COLLAPSES AND WE ALL STARVE QUICKLY LOWER INTEREST RATES MORE CREDIT NOWNOWNOW

At least that's one version, More likely, there's a period of adjustment as the economy cools down from rapid spending frenzy. Growth is reduced, financial markets start feeling the hurt and is forced to downsize. Unemployment rises. We no longer enjoy absurdly cheap labor and transportation costs and industry is forced to move somewhat closer to its markets.

Particularls may vary due to actions of individual states that may do strange stuff in response.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:What happens if people become stingy and don't spend anything so they can save their monies? What happens to the global economy?
Depends how hard they do it. I don't know much about economics, but I know that the doom scenario is that if everyone is saving a lot, that means they're not spending as much, so people who own businesses that make stuff have lower income, so they become desperate to attract business by undercutting each other, so prices fall.

The kicker is that if prices are falling, you would have to be an idiot to start buying stuff, since whatever you might buy will be cheaper a month from now. (This is a lot like how in a hyperinflation doom spiral, prices are rising, so you would have to be an idiot to not buy stuff right now, since whatever you might buy will be more expensive a month from now.)

So falling prices makes people reduce spending further which makes prices fall even more. You see where this is going. Tertiary industry (particularly luxury goods and services) gets boned hard and fast, then secondary industry can't find buyers so they go under, then primary industry can't get the stuff it needs to make the stuff for everyone else, so they get screwed too. As far as I know, this basic process is what happened in the Great Depression (I now await the imminent *Kool Aid Man bursting through the wall* of actual economically savvy people telling me I'm wrong).

So to answer your question, what happens is somewhere between (1) maaaaybe just a (longer) recession, and (2) *Ahoooga* All aboard the fail boat!

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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Winston Blake wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:What happens if people become stingy and don't spend anything so they can save their monies? What happens to the global economy?
Depends how hard they do it. I don't know much about economics, but I know that the doom scenario is that if everyone is saving a lot, that means they're not spending as much, so people who own businesses that make stuff have lower income, so they become desperate to attract business by undercutting each other, so prices fall.

The kicker is that if prices are falling, you would have to be an idiot to start buying stuff, since whatever you might buy will be cheaper a month from now. (This is a lot like how in a hyperinflation doom spiral, prices are rising, so you would have to be an idiot to not buy stuff right now, since whatever you might buy will be more expensive a month from now.)

So falling prices makes people reduce spending further which makes prices fall even more. You see where this is going. Tertiary industry (particularly luxury goods and services) gets boned hard and fast, then secondary industry can't find buyers so they go under, then primary industry can't get the stuff it needs to make the stuff for everyone else, so they get screwed too. As far as I know, this basic process is what happened in the Great Depression (I now await the imminent *Kool Aid Man bursting through the wall* of actual economically savvy people telling me I'm wrong).

So to answer your question, what happens is somewhere between (1) maaaaybe just a (longer) recession, and (2) *Ahoooga* All aboard the fail boat!

Toot toot!
The whole thing seems logical yet comically twisted :D

That being said, If you could afford to wait for further price drops before buying said goods and services, surely this means it was never necessary in the first place, and responsible spending dictates you don't waste your money on it until you actually need it? Not that people have not tried to rationalize a purchase of a luxury good (A designer handbag perhaps, or a overpowered gaming graphics card) by thinking of the poor merchant..."It'll be good for the economy!" --Marge Simpson, on buying a new TV. or somesuch.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:What happens if people become stingy and don't spend anything so they can save their monies? What happens to the global economy?
Hard to say. Consumer spending contracts in this situation, but unless people are sticking their money under the mattress (or in US Treasury Bonds), all those savings will increase the amount of capital available for investment (lowering the costs of borrowing/raising money for companies).
PeZook wrote:On another note, why the hell are people so obsessed with "picking up the slack in the global economy"? It sounds like stuffing your face full of iPods is some sort of gruesome hard work necessary for human survival.
Companies would generally prefer that more people start buying their goods at the existing prices, as opposed to having to cut prices to increase/protect sales.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Guardsman Bass wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:What happens if people become stingy and don't spend anything so they can save their monies? What happens to the global economy?
Hard to say. Consumer spending contracts in this situation, but unless people are sticking their money under the mattress (or in US Treasury Bonds), all those savings will increase the amount of capital available for investment (lowering the costs of borrowing/raising money for companies).
Addressing the last part first, it doesn't work that way in the real world. Research has shown that banks & other lenders will loan out money first then go searching for capital to meet their reserves ratio, that is the amount of capital available for investment at a given time does not depend on how much money is sitting in the financial system's reserves. If we suddenly parked an extra trillion in the nation's bank accounts it will not be available for capital investments unless there are parties who are willing and able to borrow that money.

Since interest rates are already at all-time lows it's not going to get much if any cheaper to borrow under any condition, therefore the only other way to increase the amount of loans leaving the door is to lend to anyone with a pulse, the loan quality goes down, defaults go up, everyone loses. If it sounds familiar it's because we've already tried it, subprime loans, you may remember those from a few years back. At any point in time there are only so many qualified borrowers with a reasonable chance of repaying a loan or investment, the number can be goosed by interest rate changes, we've run that into the ground so that tool is gone.

The global economy. Well, it's toast. Most businesses these days operate on the assumption of constant revenue growth and depend on it to remain a going concern. If that growth isn't there their cash reserves run dry and the financing which they used to grow their companies to meet demand comes back to kill them. Many companies have taken out loans against their future production or something along those lines, the money is secured by the stuff they plan to produce & sell in the future which is more than what they're selling today. If they don't sell more next year they can't pay off the loan and the business goes bankrupt.

The creditors then seize and liquidate their assets at dimes on the dollar, after this happens enough times they too go bankrupt since they no longer have the cashflow & assets to maintain their operations. Once a creditor goes down it will likely take out other financials and start a wave of bank failures, hello credit freeze, bye-bye business.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Hard to say. Consumer spending contracts in this situation, but unless people are sticking their money under the mattress (or in US Treasury Bonds), all those savings will increase the amount of capital available for investment (lowering the costs of borrowing/raising money for companies).
Well, even I can see a problem with people massively increasing saving rather than buying things, even if they're saving in banks. If nobody is buying widgets, it doesn't matter how much credit is available to the widget makers; the latter have no income, so they won't be able to pay back their loans, and will rapidly go bankrupt.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Psychic_Sandwich wrote:
Hard to say. Consumer spending contracts in this situation, but unless people are sticking their money under the mattress (or in US Treasury Bonds), all those savings will increase the amount of capital available for investment (lowering the costs of borrowing/raising money for companies).
Well, even I can see a problem with people massively increasing saving rather than buying things, even if they're saving in banks. If nobody is buying widgets, it doesn't matter how much credit is available to the widget makers; the latter have no income, so they won't be able to pay back their loans, and will rapidly go bankrupt.
But you don't see a problem with people spending beyond their means and buying stuff which is not really necessary for them, like the Nth iPod? Because saving rather than buying leads to a problem, but this problem was created by overproduction based on unrealistic projections and the desire to make people overspend in the first place. It's not like it wasn't there before, it was just hidden by overspending.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Stas Bush wrote: But you don't see a problem with people spending beyond their means and buying stuff which is not really necessary for them, like the Nth iPod? Because saving rather than buying leads to a problem, but this problem was created by overproduction based on unrealistic projections and the desire to make people overspend in the first place. It's not like it wasn't there before, it was just hidden by overspending.
Exactly ; It's like braking too heavily while doing 250 kmph. It was foolish to go that fast in the first place, so you created your own problem: you shouldn't be complaining that you can't stop because it would risk you crashing, you should be thinking about slowing down in a controlled fashion!

People will never be able to save all their money because they need stuff to, you know, live, so there will always be a market for at least the basic industrial goods. The Great Depression was caused by a combination of factors, and crashing consumer spending was just one of them: and sure, it's never good if spending vanishes, but hoping the global economy will return to its glourious days of massive consumer credit fuelled spending frenzies is insane. It simply cannot be kept up, and will only lead to an even bigger crash in the future.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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AniThyng wrote:That being said, If you could afford to wait for further price drops before buying said goods and services, surely this means it was never necessary in the first place, and responsible spending dictates you don't waste your money on it until you actually need it?
Many things can be put off, but as I understand it, the point is that by the time you actually need it, you open your front door to go to the shops and there's a hairy, angry depression waiting on your front step. I.e. there is no market left to buy from; everyone's toast.

The ideal case would be where saving & spending and supply & demand are eternally perfectly balanced, and everyone is perfectly rational. Unfortunately that seems not to be the case.
PeZook wrote:Exactly ; It's like braking too heavily while doing 250 kmph. It was foolish to go that fast in the first place, so you created your own problem: you shouldn't be complaining that you can't stop because it would risk you crashing, you should be thinking about slowing down in a controlled fashion!
Wow that's an excellent analogy. Someone should make a cartoon of a bunch of idiots in a sports car yelling at the driver to speed up because braking made them spill their drinks, while up ahead there's a hairpin turn labeled 'limits to growth'.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Stas Bush wrote:RMB devaluation is crazy as an idea. "Macro thoughts about China collapsing" have been the business of every alarmist and sensationalist. It's still there (I mean the PRC). They have serious growth imbalances, but the amount of real, useful infrastructure and stuff they produce is staggering.
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China's GDP by purchasing power parity, NOT GDP nominal is reduced by 40% after the World Bank revised how it converts GDP nominal figures * into GDP PPP figures. What soon follows is gloom mongering to make Gordon Chang proud with accusations of China cooking the books (even though the article states the revision is due to more data provided by China), and spill from the doom brigade.

Fast forward one year and the GFC hit and then we find out which economy was cooking the books. Followed by the doom brigade shifting their attention to the US. Yep, funny that.

* when China over took Japan to become the second largest economy, we are refering to GDP nominal figures (not that Stas doesn't know this, but this is for interest elsewhere). If we used GDP PPP China has had a larger economy than Japan for some time, and not just from near the end of last year. GDP PPP tries to correct for the fact that some goods are cheaper in other countries. GDP nominal simply converts China's GDP in its currency to the value in US dollars for comparison.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

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Now, I'm manifestly NOT saying this is what's going on here-economics is not my strong suite, and even to my untrained eye the Chinese economy is in manifestly better shape than theirs was, but wasn't this outwardly similar to what the Communist bloc, and East Germany in particular, were doing immediately prior to the end of the Cold War?
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Personally, I wonder just how much money the PRC government pumps into the economy. If some articles are to be believed, the local governments have an incentive to prop up the property market because it props up their score sheets as well. So the question is what happens when this stops?
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by K. A. Pital »

Slacker wrote:Now, I'm manifestly NOT saying this is what's going on here-economics is not my strong suite, and even to my untrained eye the Chinese economy is in manifestly better shape than theirs was, but wasn't this outwardly similar to what the Communist bloc, and East Germany in particular, were doing immediately prior to the end of the Cold War?
In an isolated market the Eastern bloc was doing not that bad. However, the emphasis on heavy industry led to subpar consumer goods which in turn provoked a consumer good manufacturing collapse after borders were opened, etc. (it was more complex than that, but I'm trying to be concise).

China does not face that problem. Their consumer goods manufacturing sector is actually their strong point (not to say they don't have a heavy industry, too). It is open to international competition and it actually produces stuff that lots and lots of other nations buy.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Personally, I wonder just how much money the PRC government pumps into the economy. If some articles are to be believed, the local governments have an incentive to prop up the property market because it props up their score sheets as well. So the question is what happens when this stops?
You realize, of course, that "this stops" can happen years and years from now? The industrialization of Asian nations follows a similar pattern. Japan was the first, now Korea is coming close to limits of growth, and China will be soon there. Despite different background, their models are remarkably similar when viewed in the big picture. China is still undergoing demographic transition from rural to urban areas, and it is not yet fully industrialized. Now, when there's so much stuff and you're overproducing to keep profits up, like in Japan when they hit their crisis (which was sort of a hard growth limit, actually, as it turned out) - that will happen at some point. But now? The industrial capacity they have is the best guarantee China will continue to develop.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:You realize, of course, that "this stops" can happen years and years from now? The industrialization of Asian nations follows a similar pattern. Japan was the first, now Korea is coming close to limits of growth, and China will be soon there. Despite different background, their models are remarkably similar when viewed in the big picture. China is still undergoing demographic transition from rural to urban areas, and it is not yet fully industrialized. Now, when there's so much stuff and you're overproducing to keep profits up, like in Japan when they hit their crisis (which was sort of a hard growth limit, actually, as it turned out) - that will happen at some point. But now? The industrial capacity they have is the best guarantee China will continue to develop.
But how is this industrial capacity tied to a bloated property market? SUre it means people have too much money to spend and they seem to like to buy empty houses with no possibility of renting out (I can imagine that the rental market is close to being a dump in many places). Of course, with the scale of China, I suppose the real limits are not quite known or felt yet.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by K. A. Pital »

Rental market is a dump? Not in big cities, as I saw. In anything bigger than a million people, there's plenty of people renting out houses. The problem of rich people buying empty flats where nobody lives because the average worker can't afford it is also felt in Russia (especially with the wage-to-price ratio, which is also pretty bad in China, mind that). However, it doesn't trigger immediate overall economic collapse. Sure, it can lead to devaluation of housing, but for nations undergoing industrialization devaluation of housing does not pose the same enormous risks as to those nations which are already industrialized. I would say imbalances in growth, as always, pose more political risks than actual economic risks.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by madd0ct0r »

last week I was watching a program on 'the mice tribe'. workers in china who can't afford more then a single room in a basement.

trust me, the rental market hasn't run out of customers. Same as here in Vietnam, China IS NOT A FULLY INDUSTRIALIZED NATION YET.

one thing that struck me is how full the countryside here is compared to the UK. There's a lot more people living out there.
As farm mechanization progresses, the excess will move to the cities (or the newly built suburbs).

Unlike Japan, China can make a huge amount of stuff simply for it's own people. It's building luxury malls and glitzy hotels that have less use, as they aren't directly desired yet.
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Re: Dateline: China's Ghost Cities

Post by Vympel »

Just saw the Dateline piece. That's pretty mindblowing.

So China has what appears obviously (to me) as an enormous property market bubble, with regional governments just churning out empty building after empty building so they can say to the Politburo "see? more GDP!" - never mind that apparently their selling land (or land use rights or whatever it is) to build these useless developments is a source of much of their tax revenue. This can't continue. It may happen "years and years" from now (personally I think that sounds highly optimistic) but it will happen.

And whether or not the industrialization of other asian nations follows a similar pattern (I've never heard of Japan or South Korea erecting enormous ghost cities, for what that's worth, and neither of them had a command economy like China) the problem is that China is a major engine of the world economy.

This rapacious waste shouldn't be happening at all.
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