Are today's youngsters really worse?

[Iroscato]

A question that's been buzzing around in my mind for a good few years now, and I could do with the opinions of a few older members of this here board.
As a teenager myself, it's one that really touches on a sensitive nerve for me.

Is this generation of young people really worse than any others before it? I mean, i hear in Britain all the time, how youth are getting worse, manners are disappearing, all teenagers are scum etc, and it gets pretty rabid sometimes, what with the whole 'yob culture' we seem to have these days. But, are we really any different to the teenagers of the 40s, 50s, 60s, and so on?

I'd like some of the older posters to think back to 'their day', without rose-tinted glasses on and give their opinion on whether we really are worse than what you were when you were my age. Much appreciated, this could be quite interesting.

[Shroom Man 777]

Youngsters were better off when they were working in the coal mines.

Come on. Even the Bible had God send bears to eat disobedient children, and had instructions to stone children who curse their parents. It is a phenomenon as old as time.

[Iroscato]

Youngsters were better off when they were working in the coal mines.

Come on. Even the Bible had God send bears to eat disobedient children, and had instructions to stone children who curse their parents. It is a phenomenon as old as time.

Another charge we have, when we put God on trial for crimes against humanity.

[Elheru Aran]

I'm not sure why this is a societal phenomenon throughout various human cultures. Envy may play a part in this-- the oldsters look at the youngsters and are like, "dang, I remember when I could do that, I'm damned if I'll let them get away with it like I did".

That's my two cents so far, I may return if I have more thoughts...

[Purple]

I my self can tell you that yes, young people are worse and worse with each new generation. And I am not even that old, barely in my 20's. I can tell you this because I have had the chance to observe how different generations handle them self in society through my friends and relatives and in particular in schools.

To give an example. In my day (some 5-6 years ago), you did not respect your teachers or obey them. But if they were idiots you were mostly still in class and pretended to pay attention and than later laughed about them behind their back. Now a day, it is completely normal for a child to shout at a teacher and in class and be completely wild. The children now a days have lost any and all sense of authority, who is in charge and who is to obey. And this is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a society.

[Sinanju]

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that people saying that is just a sign they're getting old. I would guess it's a combination of jealousy like Elheru suggests and probably a fair bit of rose-tinted glasses. I'm not that old (26) so I still remember what teenagers were really like 'in my day', but come back in a decade or two and who knows?

[Broomstick]

I'm in my 40's and I'll buck the trend and say no, kids these days are no worse and no better - they just manifest different annoying traits than back in my day.

[Simon_Jester]

I my self can tell you that yes, young people are worse and worse with each new generation. And I am not even that old, barely in my 20's. I can tell you this because I have had the chance to observe how different generations handle them self in society through my friends and relatives and in particular in schools.

To give an example. In my day (some 5-6 years ago), you did not respect your teachers or obey them. But if they were idiots you were mostly still in class and pretended to pay attention and than later laughed about them behind their back. Now a day, it is completely normal for a child to shout at a teacher and in class and be completely wild. The children now a days have lost any and all sense of authority, who is in charge and who is to obey. And this is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a society.

Congratulations, Purple: you have become an authoritarian old man at the age of 20, you poor guy.

Seriously, there are so many places in your account to fit personal bias, faults of perception, shifts of social context that have nothing to do with the "quality" of youth... well, I for one don't buy it as evidence of persistent degeneration.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I my self can tell you that yes, young people are worse and worse with each new generation. And I am not even that old, barely in my 20's. I can tell you this because I have had the chance to observe how different generations handle them self in society through my friends and relatives and in particular in schools.

To give an example. In my day (some 5-6 years ago), you did not respect your teachers or obey them. But if they were idiots you were mostly still in class and pretended to pay attention and than later laughed about them behind their back. Now a day, it is completely normal for a child to shout at a teacher and in class and be completely wild. The children now a days have lost any and all sense of authority, who is in charge and who is to obey. And this is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a society.

Ah yes, you're so full of shit, I'd be amazed if it turned out your eye color was something other than brown. We can play this "In my day" game all the way back to the first cavemen who went "In my day, youngsters didn't go around defacing cave walls with pictures of wild animals and carving women with huge tits."

In your parents' day, their parents probably said "In my day, kids didn't listen to shitty music where filthy-looking men wail about sex and drugs to overdistorted guitars. They wore button-down shirts and goddamned cardigans to school every day and appreciated the value of a quarter."

As has been said, there is no objective sign that each generation is worse than the last. There is, however, ample evidence for mounting neophobia masquerading as "nostalgia" that inflicts itself on people as they age and their brains become increasingly less plastic.

[bobalot]

Statistically speaking, no.

Crime rates have collapsed in the last few decades throughout the Western World. Not to mention, younger people are far less likely to discriminate on race or sexuality.

I think the older generations who practised rampant racism, sexism, and homophobia should really shut the fuck up about how great the old days were.

[Elheru Aran]

The question has to be asked though-- do older people see kids as bad because the kids misbehave, or because standards have changed since the oldsters' time? Were the standards better then, or are they better now? This depends on *which* standard. For example, Purple posited that kids misbehave in classes more often now than before; is this because we're producing shittier teachers, or is it because the kids have more crappy attention spans, or is it an entire fallacy in the first place? I think that needs input from the actual teachers here, btw, I'm not going to discuss that beyond bringing up that example.

Things change between generations; that's obvious to anybody. What needs to be shown is whether this is for the better or for the worse, rather than just generalizing 'all kids are worse now than they were back then' or 'all kids are better' or 'it's all stayed the same'.

Personally, I don't think I'm really old enough to comment yet. I do think that in some places, there has been a decline in either a.) educational standards or b.) parenting, either or both of which could produce young people who don't come up to what the past generation expects of them. However, you can't really pin it down on anything specific.

A point that needs to be made is how do you define what makes a 'bad kid'? Is it a kid that acts up in class? Is it a kid that shoplifts? Running about with street gangs and painting grafitti, lifting hubcaps? Juvenile delinquency? Sassing parents? What?

[Purple]

Seriously, there are so many places in your account to fit personal bias, faults of perception, shifts of social context that have nothing to do with the "quality" of youth... well, I for one don't buy it as evidence of persistent degeneration.

I will NOT deny that. In fact I confirm what you said full heartedly. I just needed a place to vent my anger about modern youth.

[RogueIce]

I my self can tell you that yes, young people are worse and worse with each new generation. And I am not even that old, barely in my 20's. I can tell you this because I have had the chance to observe how different generations handle them self in society through my friends and relatives and in particular in schools.

To give an example. In my day (some 5-6 years ago), you did not respect your teachers or obey them. But if they were idiots you were mostly still in class and pretended to pay attention and than later laughed about them behind their back. Now a day, it is completely normal for a child to shout at a teacher and in class and be completely wild. The children now a days have lost any and all sense of authority, who is in charge and who is to obey. And this is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a society.

I'm in my mid-20s, and back when I was in high school I had classmates who considered it a point of pride that they made the teacher cry in class. How? Making fun of her dead son. If that's not disrespect, I don't know what is.

EDIT: Which is to say, my classmates back then were at least as bad as the kids you talk about today. So I don't think it's worse.

Granted the whole 'glued to the phone' or 'faces engrossed in texting' stuff is new, but if you watch 80's movies you'll see they always had their Walkman headphones on, so...

The question has to be asked though-- do older people see kids as bad because the kids misbehave, or because standards have changed since the oldsters' time? Were the standards better then, or are they better now? This depends on *which* standard. For example, Purple posited that kids misbehave in classes more often now than before; is this because we're producing shittier teachers, or is it because the kids have more crappy attention spans, or is it an entire fallacy in the first place?

I think it's been said that as time has gone on, teachers have had fewer means to enforce discipline in their classrooms.

So is it that kids these days are really worse in their general mindset, or that they can just get away with more than kids of old could? IOW, kids "back in the day" may well have been as 'bad' as kids today, but they just couldn't get to that point before getting curbed by teachers and the administration (in school), parents, police, etc.

[Sriad]

Nope.

Every generation since we climbed out of the trees (trees were good enough for your parents, damn it! Get back up here!) has been thought worse than the one before, and I'm pretty sure that opinion has been wrong >90% of the time.

Much more often than being FACTUALLY worse, we're embarrassed by our own past and condemn the mistakes we are able to recall... Which is far from all of them. We humans are wired to remember ourselves in the most flattering light.

The question has to be asked though-- do older people see kids as bad because the kids misbehave, or because standards have changed since the oldsters' time? Were the standards better then, or are they better now? This depends on *which* standard. For example, Purple posited that kids misbehave in classes more often now than before; is this because we're producing shittier teachers, or is it because the kids have more crappy attention spans, or is it an entire fallacy in the first place?

I think it's been said that as time has gone on, teachers have had fewer means to enforce discipline in their classrooms.

So is it that kids these days are really worse in their general mindset, or that they can just get away with more than kids of old could? IOW, kids "back in the day" may well have been as 'bad' as kids today, but they just couldn't get to that point before getting curbed by teachers and the administration (in school), parents, police, etc.[/quote]

This is three fourths selection bias, one fourth selective recall. We naturally hear about the worst cases of disobedience locally and nationally, tended NOT to pay attention to that sort of news when we ourselves were in school, and remember few of our own flaws. I know for a fact that my Junior High band class (myself included, I'm afraid) were a bunch of vicious little fucks whenever we had a substitute teacher/conductor.

[Simon_Jester]

Seriously, there are so many places in your account to fit personal bias, faults of perception, shifts of social context that have nothing to do with the "quality" of youth... well, I for one don't buy it as evidence of persistent degeneration.

I will NOT deny that. In fact I confirm what you said full heartedly. I just needed a place to vent my anger about modern youth.

Your anger is stupid and misplaced; you are making a fetish out of the role of authority and cherrypicking examples to confirm your conviction that others (who do not share your fetish) are decadent.

I think it's been said that as time has gone on, teachers have had fewer means to enforce discipline in their classrooms.

So is it that kids these days are really worse in their general mindset, or that they can just get away with more than kids of old could? IOW, kids "back in the day" may well have been as 'bad' as kids today, but they just couldn't get to that point before getting curbed by teachers and the administration (in school), parents, police, etc.

Of course, many of the means in question frequently involved arbitrary 'discipline' such as "I will beat you for doing things I don't like," and were often applied disproportionately to students who stood out for any reason other than "is teacher's pet."

We moved away from that for a reason.

[Purple]

Your anger is stupid and misplaced; you are making a fetish out of the role of authority and cherrypicking examples to confirm your conviction that others (who do not share your fetish) are decadent.

Well not exactly but you are true to some extent. Simply put, I have a thing against children who act as criminals abusing each other and adults while being protected by anti child abuse laws and a justice system that is overly lax on juvenile criminals.

Where I am from there is a saying that goes like this: It's ok to murder someone, just do it before you turn 16 so that the courts can't get you.

[Lonestar]

A question that's been buzzing around in my mind for a good few years now, and I could do with the opinions of a few older members of this here board.
As a teenager myself, it's one that really touches on a sensitive nerve for me.

Is this generation of young people really worse than any others before it? I mean, i hear in Britain all the time, how youth are getting worse, manners are disappearing, all teenagers are scum etc, and it gets pretty rabid sometimes, what with the whole 'yob culture' we seem to have these days. But, are we really any different to the teenagers of the 40s, 50s, 60s, and so on?

I'd like some of the older posters to think back to 'their day', without rose-tinted glasses on and give their opinion on whether we really are worse than what you were when you were my age. Much appreciated, this could be quite interesting.

The answer is:
No, but....


What am I basing this on? Herman Wouk wrote a book in the late '60s/early 70s called War and Remembrance, which was about WW2 seen through the eyes of a US Naval officer, with every few chapters being a "article" that the (Now Retired) Admiral wrote in the contemporary USNI Proceedings. At one point he says that:

Our moral climate does seem to be going to hell in a handbasket — I am writing in 1970, the “counterculture” era —but my superiors were making that complaint in the 1920s, the “flaming youth” era, which then more or less included me

So in one fell swoop he notes that "kids these days are jackasses, of course they said the same about my generation.", which is probably accurate. It seems to be an eternal "Kids these days" thing.


That said, we're now a few generations removed from truly Desperate Times in the West, and most of today's Youth haven't know real inconvenience. Hell, I have friends in the civilian world who are fucking amazed at what I had to put up with in the service, and we've seen more than a few posters on this board who resolutely refuse to move out of their parents house, or do what it takes to get a job that is less than what they "feel" they deserve. There really is a huge entitlement complex going on.

[Broomstick]

I my self can tell you that yes, young people are worse and worse with each new generation. And I am not even that old, barely in my 20's. I can tell you this because I have had the chance to observe how different generations handle them self in society through my friends and relatives and in particular in schools.

You are not old enough to set yourself apart from "today's youth". You ARE a member of that demographic however much you loathe them. In many places in the world you are not yet an adult. In this context, your pretense of being such is ridiculous.

[Mayabird]

That said, we're now a few generations removed from truly Desperate Times in the West, and most of today's Youth haven't know real inconvenience. Hell, I have friends in the civilian world who are fucking amazed at what I had to put up with in the service, and we've seen more than a few posters on this board who resolutely refuse to move out of their parents house, or do what it takes to get a job that is less than what they "feel" they deserve. There really is a huge entitlement complex going on.

Yeah, but it's not just young people but everybody, young people being a subset of everybody. Working at a hearing aid place has put me in contact with more than my fair share of the elderly who resemble spoiled teenagers with dementia, complete with tantrums. Baby Boomers are hitting geezer age now and haven't changed their general self-absorbed nature in the least bit. And so on.

This all being said, I am probably not the best person for comparing kids these days with kids when I was a kid myself for obvious reasons.

[Purple]

You are not old enough to set yourself apart from "today's youth". You ARE a member of that demographic however much you loathe them. In many places in the world you are not yet an adult. In this context, your pretense of being such is ridiculous.

It's all a function of how you define the term. In my case I define it as children from 10 to 18 because in my experience by the time they hit that age most people tend to grow up and shape up to either become productive citizens or proper criminals.

[mr friendly guy]

As Bobalot says, with respect to things like racism, bigotry etc, I think its fair to say young people are better than their predecessors. Also add willingness to combat climate change, since a lot of those deniers I see in protests are from the older generation, they aren't likely to have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

As for kids murdering other people, there have been a few cases of such in "my day". The murder of James Bulger certainly rings a bell.* However kids murdering people have occurred since a child emperor took the Chinese throne if not earlier, and it wasn't just something speculated about in Lord of the Flies.

I will give the previous generation one advantage though. Apparently they were better behaved at sporting events ** and sporting hooliganism wasn't so apparent.

* Two year old James Bulger was murdered in 1992 by 2 older kids. One of the murderers Jon Venables (now an adult) was accused of possessing child porn and we had the usual self righteous people whining about how unfair the media is to Venables, who are strangely silent when Venables was charged with such and I am pretty sure Non existent when he was found guilty of possessing child porn.

** Allegedly in the 1960s while watching soccer, opposing sides could sit close to each other and near the field without a barrier separating them and were well behaved.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Clearly you have never seen the students at my university. Aged 18-25 or so and about 30% of them are never going to amount to anything. They freely admit that and plan to have as many parties as possible before their student loan runs out.

Productive citizens OR proper criminals? What a wonderful generalisation that is.

[Simon_Jester]

You are not old enough to set yourself apart from "today's youth". You ARE a member of that demographic however much you loathe them. In many places in the world you are not yet an adult. In this context, your pretense of being such is ridiculous.

It's all a function of how you define the term. In my case I define it as children from 10 to 18 because in my experience by the time they hit that age most people tend to grow up and shape up to either become productive citizens or proper criminals.

And you base this on your decades of experience with people growing out of their teens...?

Your biases are showing very strongly, and it's ugly as all hell. I would not presume to say, based on how someone behaves at 18, how they will behave for the rest of their life. People have been talking about a "misspent youth" for centuries, and that "youth" often extends well into the 20s. Conversely, many people who can give the illusion of being model citizens in high school turn out to be far less impressive once they get out of that unnatural environment.

[Duckie]

I my self can tell you that yes, young people are worse and worse with each new generation. And I am not even that old, barely in my 20's. I can tell you this because I have had the chance to observe how different generations handle them self in society through my friends and relatives and in particular in schools.

To give an example. In my day (some 5-6 years ago), you did not respect your teachers or obey them. But if they were idiots you were mostly still in class and pretended to pay attention and than later laughed about them behind their back. Now a day, it is completely normal for a child to shout at a teacher and in class and be completely wild. The children now a days have lost any and all sense of authority, who is in charge and who is to obey. And this is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a society.

Interestingly, one of the first pieces of writing we have on record is from the city state of sumer. In it, a sumerian high priest bemoans that the new generation (about 2880 BC or so as I recall) as worse than the previous, disrespectful of authority, stupid, entitled and soft and fat due to its lack of appreciation for the hard work the previous generations had to do, and less ethical. He concludes that with the constant degeneration of mankind, surely the very world itself will fall into chaos in just a few generations.

3000 fucking BC, my friends. That's how old this canard is.

[Purple]

Well I say if its that old who are we to break away from tradition?