Stargate Problem

[doom3607]

OK, I have a question about what people think would happen if a very specifc thing happened to an active Stargate. It's been demonstrated in SG1 that a normal gate can dial a Supergate. So it seems reasonable a Supergate can dial a normal gate, correct? Ok, so what happens if a Supergate dials a normal gate, and then the normal gate that got dialed gets thrown through the Supergate?

[PREDATOR490]

That couldnt happen, two gates cannot be active in the same area without some seriously major effort to open a wormhole then transport the small gate to the large gate. Assuming that... I suspect the supergate switches off.

[doom3607]

Huh. And if the (presumeably that's what it would be) safety feature making it do that was broken, like oh-so-many safeties throughout the course of the show?

[PREDATOR490]

Huh. And if the (presumeably that's what it would be) safety feature making it do that was broken, like oh-so-many safeties throughout the course of the show?

It isnt actually a safety feature. Two gates cannot be active within an unknown radius. The use of one locks out any other within the range.
The largest range observed would be from Earth to the Moon. SGA - 'Enemy at the Gates'

As for shutting off... hurling the small gate into the big gate will cause it to be disassembled. Since the gate for it to be reassembled isnt outside... the gate will have nowhere to transmit to for reassmbly causing the supergate to eventually switch off. Gate inside gets lost and everything is fine.

Thats the sum extent of anything that can be deduced without going into fan-fiction. I.E It crosses the streams and everyone dies.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, just to be a bit picky, they didn't dial from a normal gate to a Supergate, they:
Spoiler

1. Placed regualr Stargate next to Supergate
2. Carried another normal Stargate to near a black hole in the Pegasus galaxy
3. Dialled from the Pegasus gate to the normal gate next to the Supergate
4. Detonated a nuclear wepon inside a Wraith Hive Ship that was right next to the gate around the black hole
5. Wormhole connection jumped from the normal gate to the Supergate, a la Season 1 "Solitudes" and season 2 "A Matter of Time."

[Penfold]

Huh. And if the (presumeably that's what it would be) safety feature making it do that was broken, like oh-so-many safeties throughout the course of the show?

It isnt actually a safety feature. Two gates cannot be active within an unknown radius. The use of one locks out any other within the range.
The largest range observed would be from Earth to the Moon. SGA - 'Enemy at the Gates'

Actually, the gate bridge and the fact that it can be used for real-time communication prove otherwise. Two gates can be open less that a Daedalus length away from each other (at the Midway Station), as long as they aren't on the same network.

In fact, I'll go one further. Another requirement for real-time communication is that all of the Bridge gates, except for the ones in Midway, must be able to simultaneously send and receive a wormhole.

So, yeah. Definitely a safety feature, which is surprising coming from the Ancients.

[Jawawithagun]

Now I'm wondering what happens if you dial a normal gate from a supergate and send a big spaceship through.

[Crazedwraith]

For crying out loud, Carter! You shrunk the spaceship!

[NecronLord]

In fact, I'll go one further. Another requirement for real-time communication is that all of the Bridge gates, except for the ones in Midway, must be able to simultaneously send and receive a wormhole.

They don't, they hold the information in their buffer and then forward the contents on.

So, yeah. Definitely a safety feature, which is surprising coming from the Ancients.

Actually, they're quite good for safety features.

[doom3607]

The Ancients? Good with safety features?

I'm sorry, but the whole point of how many episodes was the Stargate screwing something up due to lacking a certain safety feature? Granted, a lot of those were due to the SGC lacking a DHD, but the Stargate was built to not need one! You'd think they would have put the safety features in the one device absolutely indispensible to the use of a Stargate, namely, the Stargate!

[Captain Seafort]

I'm sorry, but the whole point of how many episodes was the Stargate screwing something up due to lacking a certain safety feature? Granted, a lot of those were due to the SGC lacking a DHD, but the Stargate was built to not need one! You'd think they would have put the safety features in the one device absolutely indispensible to the use of a Stargate, namely, the Stargate!

AFAIK the problem usually wasn't linked to lack of safety features, but to the SGC deliberately bypassing them. Such accidentally almost blowing up the star of the planet they were going to by sending the wormhole straight through it.

[NecronLord]

The Ancients? Good with safety features?

I'm sorry, but the whole point of how many episodes was the Stargate screwing something up due to lacking a certain safety feature? Granted, a lot of those were due to the SGC lacking a DHD, but the Stargate was built to not need one! You'd think they would have put the safety features in the one device absolutely indispensible to the use of a Stargate, namely, the Stargate!

Firstly: It was built to not need one because any qualified user (AKA an Ancient) would use an alternative (AKA a gateship) that was safe, or just manually dial it. It wasn't designed to be used with crude PCB & microchip electronics. And please be specific about which safety features you're complaining about?

Second: The Stargate gave error messages and refused to lock, if you're thinking about Red Sky. The Tau'ri specifically broke the thing to make it lock. By that standard my computer lacks safety features and can electrocute me, if I attack its power unit with an axe and shove my hand in there.

[Penfold]

They don't, they hold the information in their buffer and then forward the contents on.

Wait, then how do they use it to establish real-time communication? Not to mention the gates staying open at both ends in "Midway".

Actually, they're quite good for safety features.

You mean the people who built a city-ship with no airtight doors, a machine that gives people exploding tumors the moment the console is turned on, a machine that stimulates a potentially life-threatening increase in brain activity the moment the console is turned on, and entrapping a dangerous energy being in a device that can be easily shut off by a child?

[Stargate Nerd]

They don't, they hold the information in their buffer and then forward the contents on.

Wait, then how do they use it to establish real-time communication? Not to mention the gates staying open at both ends in "Midway".

Actually, they're quite good for safety features.

You mean the people who built a city-ship with no airtight doors, a machine that gives people exploding tumors the moment the console is turned on, a machine that stimulates a potentially life-threatening increase in brain activity the moment the console is turned on, and entrapping a dangerous energy being in a device that can be easily shut off by a child?

Who says that any of those machines were ready for prime time? They were discovered in suddenly abandoned research labs after all.

Also Atlantis is a city first and foremost and a spaceship second.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Or in season 4's "Adrift" when the city beigns automatically collapsing the shield. We see airtight doors closing everywhere.

[PREDATOR490]

Not sure the doors ARE airtight.

If they were those poor folks that the shield collapsed on surely wouldnt have winked out so quickly when it passed over them.
The gizmos they left behind could have used better safety features or even warnings. That said the SG teams are equally silly for being stupid in their exploration.

As for stargates... a wormhole automatically prevents any other stargates from functioning within a certain range. When the Asurans were using their deathsat, Atlantis couldnt dial out at all. Similar situations have occured elsewhere.

'Blah blah, can be done if on same network'

Even if that were true that requires someone to go and fetch a stargate from a different network just to throw it through the supergate...
I.E Someone has to go ALL the way to Pegasus and pick up an Atlantis gate just to bring back to the Milky Way.

As for what would happen to a ship going through the big gate > small gate.

I would lay good odds the smaller gate will simply shut off and whatever went through would get lost. One would expect there is a limit to the memory capacity of a gate. Small gates are meant to transfer people. Transfering a massive ship through it might be a case of trying to send a large file onto a computer that dosent have the capacity to hold it. Gates wont spit out something unless it is complete so if they dont get the full ship. The thing will be purged from the memory.

Alternatively, the gate spits out a nasty mess.

The idea of shrinking does have an appeal.

Although if Large gate > Small gate = Shrinks
Small Gate > Large gate = Enlarges

Puddle jumper suddenly becomes the size of an X304....

[Darth Nostril]

Yes but then you'd have hundred feet tall crew inside the upscaled jumper.
Would certainly cause something of a logistics problem trying to feed them, if they don't simply die crushed by their own bodyweight.

[Jawawithagun]

Alternatively, the gate spits out a nasty mess.

This could actually be something useful for mining of asteroids etc.
Feed a big lump of mass into the large gate and have the small one put up in the processing facility, ready to work the churned-up broken-down ore.

[doom3607]

Asteroids, hell. Rig the Ori home galaxy's supergate up to this system and then let them think they dialed the Milky Way Supergate correctly. How much valuable metal is in an Ori warship, do you think?

[Jawawithagun]

Asteroids, hell. Rig the Ori home galaxy's supergate up to this system and then let them think they dialed the Milky Way Supergate correctly. How much valuable metal is in an Ori warship, do you think?

Well, yeah, but it's far more inconvenient having to wait for the Ori to decide to send you stuff. Plays hell with the staff's holiday schedule.

[Starglider]

Stargates do not transmitt objects whole. They dematerialise objects, send their patterns, and rematerialise them at the other end. It isn't clear if the 'buffer' stores just data, or data plus component particles, but either way it amuses me that the continuity flaw 'OMG it kills and clones you!' brigade don't whine about Stargates/Ancient Rings/Asgard Beams to nearly the same extent that they whine about Trek transporters.

Anyway, the point is that this is a deconstruction and reconstruction of particles occuring under computer control. There is no sane reason why the supergate control computer would be programmed to scale things up (requiring lots of particle duplication, quite smart duplication to account for molecular structure), instead of just rematerialising things at the input size. If it is reliant on a stream of physical particles from the input, rather than creating them out of energy / thin air, then it literally cannot scale things up because it does not have the source particles necessary to do so. We don't know what would happen if you dial a normal gate from a supergate, but if the designers are even marginally competent it would either refuse to connect, or buffer the objects, drop the wormhole, then kick them back out of the event horizon (you don't need an active wormhole to rematerialise objects as we saw in the episode where Teal'c was trapped in a gate buffer).

[NecronLord]

Stargates do not transmitt objects whole. They dematerialise objects, send their patterns, and rematerialise them at the other end. It isn't clear if the 'buffer' stores just data, or data plus component particles, but either way it amuses me that the continuity flaw 'OMG it kills and clones you!' brigade don't whine about Stargates/Ancient Rings/Asgard Beams to nearly the same extent that they whine about Trek transporters.

This is because Star Trek fans make a much more pronounced effort to explain their stuff.

Additionally the Stargate has a much more magical appearance.

[Xon]

It was almost 8-10 years before we even got explicitly told that it dematerialise objects (once an entire "object" is sensed to be inside the virtual-space 'buffer', conditions and exceptions apply). Before then all we saw was a stellar rollarcoaster ride with lots of character references outright stating they are conscious between walking into the stargate and walking out of it.

Especially early when you had obvious physical differences entering and exiting. Ie coming out drenched in sweat, stumbling forward with more velocity than they had relative to the entering stargate etc.

Anyway, the point is that this is a deconstruction and reconstruction of particles occuring under computer control. There is no sane reason why the supergate control computer would be programmed to scale things up (requiring lots of particle duplication, quite smart duplication to account for molecular structure),

The stargate has a 'buffer' which is nothing more than deconstruction matter which hasn't been commited and the gate is able to reconstruction on demand and has to be capable of emulating physics for matter inside that buffer. You see this when O'Neil sticks his hand in an outgoing wormhole and is abel to pull it back out without bleeding to death, or when SGA stashes half a freaking jumper into a Stargate because it is stuck.

The gate is also 'smart' enough to exclude objects from the physics simulation inside the buffer if it can deduce that objects no longer have a chance at being retrieved, in the same SGA episode they stash a few wounded airmen in the buffer and McKay explicitly states no time will pass for them while they try to fix the jumper.

This isn't proof the gate has enough smarts to scale up input (which would be undesirable in general), but that gate is actually a very smart piece of technology.

If it is reliant on a stream of physical particles from the input, rather than creating them out of energy / thin air, then it literally cannot scale things up because it does not have the source particles necessary to do so.

Not exactly true. The input matter stream it's self doesn't matter. It's the information extracted from the original matter stream and the energy required to fabricate the matter which is important. There is an entire episode called "48 hours" which also implies a Stargate +DHD combo can generate a few megatons per second too.

[Starglider]

Not exactly true. The input matter stream it's self doesn't matter. It's the information extracted from the original matter stream and the energy required to fabricate the matter which is important.

I don't know where you get that idea from. It's stated early on in the series, and many times afterwards, that the iris works by preventing matter from 're-integrating' after exiting the event horizon. This suggests to me that it blocks the process that imposes the pattern on the incoming stream, but there's no way to stop the particle stream itself from exiting the wormhole. This is relatively realistic in that if we could make arbitrary wormholes, we would expect them to be tiny and likely have bizarre internal topology. It is also consistent with the ring transporters, which pretty clearly transport something physical at a speed much slower than the speed of light, and which can send that stream through an active gate to a set of rings on the other side. Both technologies mostly likely use a medium velocity (fast but not relativistic) particle stream with an accompanying digital pattern and computer controlled unspecified means of reimposing the original structure on the matter. It's just that the Stargates use a 2D event horizon and interpose a wormhole for FTL travel, whereas the rings work on a 3D volume and lack the integrated programmable wormhole generator. We don't know if the particles are atoms (ions) or subatomic particles, my guess would be the former.

If the Stargates were capable of making matter out of nothing ('energy...'), they'd be capable of trivially cloning people and mass-manufacturing any item. There's no indication that the ancients did this or that anyone since has tried to use the technology that way. The Asgard beaming device is capable of making objects from stored patterns or computer designs, but even there we don't know if it's using 'pure energy' or tanks of elemental feedstock.

[Crazedwraith]

It's from '48 Hours', The stored energy that was Teal'c dissipates from the gate but they still manage to re-intergrate him afterwards.