Donald Trump is a birther.

[eion]

Obama has released his birth records. The "Certificate of Live Birth" is, as it says on the bottom of the document, "prima fascia evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding". In that he has already set aside his own rights under Hawaii's privacy laws not to have such information released to anyone without a tangible interest.

If tomorrow Obama stood next to the hand-written birth certificate, with his little baby footprints on it, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. The birther's would say it was all faked. If someone found an 8mm recording of his fucking birth they'd call it a staged forgery. There is no amount of evidence you can pile in from of a conspiracy theorist that will satisfy them.

We have brought back rocks, soil, left laser reflectors, independently photographed the landings sites, and by the way transmitted live video of the damn thing all over the world as it was happening and there are still between 6 and 28% of people who think we faked the fucking moon landings!

And I completely agree with you about McCain, as did the entirety of the U.S. Senate, including the two leading Democrats running against him, but if one wants to be all constitutionally originalist (as the teabaggers and birthers are apt to pretend to be) then the Canal Zone is/was unorganized U.S. territory, and therefore those born there were not entitled to jus soli citizenship based on the Constitution alone.

The point is an argument could be, and by the way was, made. The difference is the Democrats fell over themselves to quash such an argument, and the Senate passed a unanimous resolution stating the John McCain was a natural born citizen of the U.S. Why was the same not done for Obama? I do wonder why...

[bobalot]

Isn't the issue that the doccument people want to see isn't the one Obama posted but a more detailed hospital/official record?

I've heard speculation that they want to keep it hidden not because he wasn't born in the US, but because it might have something 'damaging' like his birth ethnicity is 'white' or his religion (if they put that on a birth certificate) is 'muslim'.

Really? Do these claims have credible sources? Because they sound like a load of bullshit to me.

This birth certificate (check the bottom):


or this announcement in the local news paper:


of the fact that when the Hawaii Department of Health were asked if it were real, a spokesperson said:

"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo told us.

or fact that FactCheck.Org went in person to confirm the authenticity of the certificate should be enough for anybody who isn't a fucking moron.

[Serafina]

The notion of judging someone by the religion put on his birth certificate is racist on it's own anyway.
The only basis for such an entry would be the religion of the parents, but that doesn't mean that their child will have the same religion when it's grown up. Granted, there is high level of causation here, but judging someone by the religion of ones parents is no better than declaring someone a jew because his ancestors twice removed were jews.
Just like "culture", "religion" is just a PC-version of "race" here.

[PeZook]

Well, Serafina, these are the same people who attack Coptic Christians coming to protest the same thing they're protesting because they look Arabic.

I think you're spot on: these sorts of people really don't care about religion. Or they think they do, but in reality it's all about race. Arabic-looking = not Christian (despite the fact there's some Italians who could be mistaken for Iranians, and nobody can accuse Italians of being not-christian )

[Zaune]

Does anyone else feel that it's both petty and pointless even by Republican standards to continue bringing this up after a clear majority of the US population were made aware of these allegations and voted for him anyway?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Does anyone else feel that it's both petty and pointless even by Republican standards to continue bringing this up after a clear majority of the US population were made aware of these allegations and voted for him anyway?

As far as some Republicans are concerned, they didn't win because they didn't hammer that point home enough. The "we didn't do enough of X, so that's why we lost" thinking has dominated the GOP since they lost Congress in 2006. They believe they weren't conservative enough, didn't push 'small government' enough, didn't do enough to support wealthy businessmen, or didn't do enough to push their moral agenda. So they believe they lose because they aren't right-wing enough. Which is almost identical to the way the Democrats think (they've been trained to think that they lose because they weren't right-wing centrist enough. End result, a sitting President who campaigned from the left, but generally governs from the right.)

The rise of the Tea Party serves as proof to GOP leadership that "didn't do enough" is the right reasoning to adopt. The Tea Party fervently believes that everything would be fantastic if the United States became a right-wing paradise. Ergo, Tea Party darlings like Donald "I'm not showing the birth certificate for my hair" Trump are going to press this 'birther' issue.

[Dalton]

Is it that they can't release the original TO anyone, or they can't release the original without the authorization of child or parent? If they can't give it TO anyone, that makes sense.

The State of Hawaii keeps all original birth records on file at the state Health Department and doesn't release them even to the person on the certificate. Any requests for a copy of a birth certificate are fulfilled with a Certificate of Live Birth, which is sufficient for any and all legal purposes such as passports, driver's licenses and running for public office.

[Patrick Degan]

Does anyone else feel that it's both petty and pointless even by Republican standards to continue bringing this up after a clear majority of the US population were made aware of these allegations and voted for him anyway?

As far as some Republicans are concerned, they didn't win because they didn't hammer that point home enough. The "we didn't do enough of X, so that's why we lost" thinking has dominated the GOP since they lost Congress in 2006. They believe they weren't conservative enough, didn't push 'small government' enough, didn't do enough to support wealthy businessmen, or didn't do enough to push their moral agenda. So they believe they lose because they aren't right-wing enough. Which is almost identical to the way the Democrats think (they've been trained to think that they lose because they weren't right-wing centrist enough. End result, a sitting President who campaigned from the left, but generally governs from the right.)

The rise of the Tea Party serves as proof to GOP leadership that "didn't do enough" is the right reasoning to adopt. The Tea Party fervently believes that everything would be fantastic if the United States became a right-wing paradise. Ergo, Tea Party darlings like Donald "I'm not showing the birth certificate for my hair" Trump are going to press this 'birther' issue.

That basic idea "we lost because we weren't conservative enough" has been the go-to GOP excuse for every election defeat since the 1980s and it's been the driver pushing the party further rightward. That meme has been running for a long time now.

[Big Phil]

You know, people say 'satisfying them is a waste of time', but if you actually GAVE them the damn thing then they'd have to resort to even stupider claims or shut up.

Bobalot just posted "the damn thing." Is that sufficient for you, or are you going to continue being an ignorant, racist fucktard?

[loomer]

Whoah, Sanchez, what the hell?

[Simon_Jester]

Sanchez is reacting to Chewie as if Chewie were a birther, probably because he wishes there were one around.

That said, I think CaptainChewbacca's position is a bit... naive, in that it assumes that when faced with incontrovertible evidence the birther community is willing or able to admit that it exists. People who have that much psychologically invested in something like this don't acknowledge evidence, or the lack of evidence on their own side.

[Tanasinn]

Well, Serafina, these are the same people who attack Coptic Christians coming to protest the same thing they're protesting because they look Arabic.

I have a hard time sympathizing with them. You'd think it'd give them pause re: their bigotry, but one can hardly be optimistic about that.

It really is convenient that Trump is a confirmed birther (or pretending to be, it doesn't matter at all). If he runs and if he runs Republican and if he wins the primary, it'll be an excellent avenue of attack coming up to the election.

[SCRawl]

A confirmed birther (or other conspiracy theory insanity) can't win a serious election, since that will be used as a litmus test by those voters who are moderate and further away from that person's ideology. I suppose such a person could win a nomination fight, though I don't really think that Trump could do even that, since he apparently lacks the evangelical "street cred". But he's not an idiot -- I mean, he's no Einstein either, but neither is he a drooling moron -- so I half expect this to be a longer-term plan, even if that plan turns out to be just greater publicity for his shows.

[Big Phil]

Chewbacca is behaving like a racist... he may not be a "frothing at the mouth, lynch a darkie for whistling at a white woman racist," but insisting that more and more and more evidence be provided to prove that he was born in the United States is racist as hell. I know Chewbacca is conservative, and I suspect that is racism is more due to ignorance than any actual bigotry, but the dog whistle calls for "proof" are insulting and racist, and they're annoying as well.


EDIT - So is Donald Trump, for what it's worth.

[Mr. Coffee]

Donald Trump is a gigantic douchenozzle and "Birthers" are a pack of racist shitheads, film at 11. In science news, researchers at MIT have discovered startling new evidence of water's "wetness". After the commercial break we'll be back with Bobo The Weather Clown and Rock Johnson at the sports desk!

Seriously, why do we keep discussing the same obvious shit over and over, guys? For fuck's sake, anyone who hasn't lived been living under a rock for the last 30 years knows Trump is a fuckwit who should be ignored completely unless he's giving real estate advice, anyone that that's been about to hear thunder and see lightening for the past decade knows that the far-right is populated by useless racist cock-chuggers, and anyone that hasn't had their head buried up to their shoulders in their own ass for the last 4 years knows that "Birther" is the new "Truther" and anyone subscribing to such bullshit should be ridiculed mercilessly until they stop saying stupid shit. This is all stuff we already know, so why in the unholy blue fuck are we still fucking discussing a topic that we all know is going to just end up as a three or four page "me-too" circle jerk?

[Simon_Jester]

I wish I knew, Coffee, I wish I knew.

Chewbacca is behaving like a racist... he may not be a "frothing at the mouth, lynch a darkie for whistling at a white woman racist," but insisting that more and more and more evidence be provided to prove that he was born in the United States is racist as hell.

No, he's not. You've got his motives wrong. Or rather, you've got his actions wrong; you're not paying attention.

He's not insisting that more evidence needs to be provided that Obama is a citizen.

He's saying that providing such evidence would make the birthers look even more stupid.

Which is itself naive- they will ignore the proof and behave as if it did not exist, and everyone capable of realizing how dumb and crazy they are has already done so. But it's not racist to want birthers to look stupid.

[Elheru Aran]

I don't read that at all from Chewie's posts. All I see is slight pedantry in correcting someone about the technicalities of the historical requirements for being born a naturalized citizen, and some discussion about birthers and the standard of evidence they require.

I also don't see him calling for proof, either; that comment you quoted was him making a point that showing birthers the evidence of Obama's citizenship would force them to either accept it or blatantly ignore it, by which they would finally make clear to everybody the idiocy of their position. Nothing there about his personal stance.

[FSTargetDrone]

People who have that much psychologically invested in something like this don't acknowledge evidence, or the lack of evidence on their own side.

Exactly. Even if we could somehow convince them, then what? They still aren't going to feel any better about the man and they will never vote for him. So why bother? Forget trying to convince the fringe.

[Mr. Coffee]

I wish I knew, Coffee, I wish I knew..

Maybe we could ask the mods to make a sticky thread for posting shit about birthers/teabaggers/lolbertarians and other such political undesirables so this bullshit might not clutter up N&P so much. I swear to God and Sonny Jesus I bet I could pick three arguments made in this thread and find the same basic arguments made by the same posters in three seperate threads on just the first fucking page. Seriously, Simon, I'm starting to think some people are really just posting in N&P because they like reading their own posts more than they're actually trying to say anything of any real importance.

[Simon_Jester]

Point taken, Coffee.

I try to at least mix up which arguments I make a bit more than that, but yeah, the urge to political bitching does become a problem.

[Big Phil]

I wish I knew, Coffee, I wish I knew.

Chewbacca is behaving like a racist... he may not be a "frothing at the mouth, lynch a darkie for whistling at a white woman racist," but insisting that more and more and more evidence be provided to prove that he was born in the United States is racist as hell.

No, he's not. You've got his motives wrong. Or rather, you've got his actions wrong; you're not paying attention.

He's not insisting that more evidence needs to be provided that Obama is a citizen.

He's saying that providing such evidence would make the birthers look even more stupid.

Which is itself naive- they will ignore the proof and behave as if it did not exist, and everyone capable of realizing how dumb and crazy they are has already done so. But it's not racist to want birthers to look stupid.

I'm not sure that's what he's saying, and I'll admit that my response was colored by my knowledge of Chewie's voting record and his political stance. So I'm formally apologizing to Chewie - sorry dude.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Well, Serafina, these are the same people who attack Coptic Christians coming to protest the same thing they're protesting because they look Arabic.

I think you're spot on: these sorts of people really don't care about religion. Or they think they do, but in reality it's all about race. Arabic-looking = not Christian (despite the fact there's some Italians who could be mistaken for Iranians, and nobody can accuse Italians of being not-christian )

You forget that in the U.S. there are a fair number of people who believe exactly that. That Italians are not Christians, but horrible papist Catholics who follow the anti-christ in Rome.

These people are stupid, and possibly insane, but they do exist.

[bobalot]

Donald Trump is a gigantic douchenozzle and "Birthers" are a pack of racist shitheads, film at 11. In science news, researchers at MIT have discovered startling new evidence of water's "wetness". After the commercial break we'll be back with Bobo The Weather Clown and Rock Johnson at the sports desk!

Seriously, why do we keep discussing the same obvious shit over and over, guys? For fuck's sake, anyone who hasn't lived been living under a rock for the last 30 years knows Trump is a fuckwit who should be ignored completely unless he's giving real estate advice, anyone that that's been about to hear thunder and see lightening for the past decade knows that the far-right is populated by useless racist cock-chuggers, and anyone that hasn't had their head buried up to their shoulders in their own ass for the last 4 years knows that "Birther" is the new "Truther" and anyone subscribing to such bullshit should be ridiculed mercilessly until they stop saying stupid shit. This is all stuff we already know, so why in the unholy blue fuck are we still fucking discussing a topic that we all know is going to just end up as a three or four page "me-too" circle jerk?

Dude, outside the United States we not exactly up to date with all this. All I knew about about Donald Trump before this is that he was in a shitty show called "The Apprentice" and had a hideous comb over.

[Mr. Coffee]

Dude, outside the United States we not exactly up to date with all this. All I knew about about Donald Trump before this is that he was in a shitty show called "The Apprentice" and had a hideous comb over.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but I gotta ask... Have you been living under Ayers Rock all this time or do you just completely ignore international news except for bits about shitty pop culture? Next you're gonna try and tell me you didn't know Rupert Murdock is the living incarnation of evil itself.

[UnderAGreySky]

But... but... he owns Star Network! They make the most popular soaps! They show English football and The Ashes! He can't be that bad!

To be honest, apart from the Anglosphere, Murdoch - note the spelling - himself is viewed as just a tycoon and not as the evil right wing financier we know and love him to be. My better half is pretty well-read and is a journalist back in India but she had no idea about Murdoch and NI's dark side.

Double that for Donald Trump, because apart from The Apprentice people may not even know him. And I certainly only thought of him as an eccentric TV-savvy entrepreneur who had lots of money to give away on the show when I was back in India.