Donald Trump is a birther.

[Vendetta]

He's not insisting that more evidence needs to be provided that Obama is a citizen.

He's saying that providing such evidence would make the birthers look even more stupid.

Although of course that evidence was provided, repeatedly and in spades, and this goes on.

Which is as expected, when people are told something that is incorrect but later corrected, they tend to remember the initial wrong information with greater reliability than they remember the subsequent correction.

[bobalot]

Dude, outside the United States we not exactly up to date with all this. All I knew about about Donald Trump before this is that he was in a shitty show called "The Apprentice" and had a hideous comb over.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but I gotta ask... Have you been living under Ayers Rock all this time or do you just completely ignore international news except for bits about shitty pop culture? Next you're gonna try and tell me you didn't know Rupert Murdock is the living incarnation of evil itself.

I watch the evening news and read the newspapers. Donald Trump is not exactly prominent in the news. I have no doubt now that some Americans and Donald Trump believe that he is an regular international news item, but outside the US nobody gives a shit about him.

[Mr. Coffee]

I have no doubt now that some Americans and Donald Trump believe that he is an regular international news item, but outside the US nobody gives a shit about him.

Tell the truth, I'm not really sure why anyone here gives a shit about that balding cunt either. 'Murica is a fucked up place, yo.

[Winston Blake]

Thats not exactly true. At the time Obama was born, 'natural born' was legally defined as having one or more parents who had been US citizens for and residents of the United States for at least two years after the age of 18. His mother was 17 or 18, and his father wasn't a citizen, so it actually IS necessary for him to have been born in the US to qualify as a US Citizen.

Firstly, I'm not closely familiar with the American political and legal system.

Now, let me get this straight: even if Obama was not 'naturally born' for this reason, anyone who was born under the exact same circumstances a few years later would qualify to run for President with no problem whatsoever. Any such person could declare their candidacy right now, admitting openly that their mother was an 18-year-old American citizen and their father was not an American citizen, and it would be perfectly OK, as long as they were born a sufficient number of years after Obama.

So what's the big deal? I understand that if Obama's presidency was shown to be technically illegal, he would have to step down. But why is this possibility treated as a terrible travesty that greatly harms America? It would be a technicality - since Obama and various officials have gone to great lengths to examine his birth circumstances, it probably would not be fraud or negligent misrepresentation, but rather 'innocent misrepresentation'.

It is impossible to argue that a Presidency by a person lacking the old-definition of natural birth *intrinsically* does any harm whatsoever to America, when a person who is identical in every way, except for being a few years younger, would be considered perfectly acceptable. The highly emotional and dramatic birther furor is about a possible 'innocent misrepresentation', which is not even a 'crime', but rather a 'tort'. From a perspective outside America, this is absurd.

---

(The above questions are rhetorical - I don't think this thread needs more 'because his opponents are racists').

Also for what it's worth, I had no idea Trump was running for President until seeing this thread, and I don't think anyone I know knows anything about him other than 'he's rich, he had that TV show, and people make jokes about his combover'.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Now, let me get this straight: even if Obama was not 'naturally born' for this reason, anyone who was born under the exact same circumstances a few years later would qualify to run for President with no problem whatsoever. Any such person could declare their candidacy right now, admitting openly that their mother was an 18-year-old American citizen and their father was not an American citizen, and it would be perfectly OK, as long as they were born a sufficient number of years after Obama.

Exactly. Laws change.

So what's the big deal? I understand that if Obama's presidency was shown to be technically illegal, he would have to step down. But why is this possibility treated as a terrible travesty that greatly harms America? It would be a technicality - since Obama and various officials have gone to great lengths to examine his birth circumstances, it probably would not be fraud or negligent misrepresentation, but rather 'innocent misrepresentation'.

It wouldn't be a 'big deal' to me, because the problems I have with Obama aren't his parentage. I feel that his upbringing outside the US gives him a more 'global' rather than 'american' mindset, and it is my personal preference that my President put America first. I would have the same issue with a white man who spent most of his early life in Germany or South Africa being President as well.

It is impossible to argue that a Presidency by a person lacking the old-definition of natural birth *intrinsically* does any harm whatsoever to America, when a person who is identical in every way, except for being a few years younger, would be considered perfectly acceptable. The highly emotional and dramatic birther furor is about a possible 'innocent misrepresentation', which is not even a 'crime', but rather a 'tort'. From a perspective outside America, this is absurd.

I agree. I expect after Obama's presidency is done some laws will quietly make it onto the books which require doccumentation or clarification of candidates so that this issue cannot be again manufactured in an increasingly globalized world. Hell, my girlfriend wasn't born in the US, she's from the Philippines, so multi-ethnicism is clearly affecting more and more Americans.

And now...

No, he's not. You've got his motives wrong. Or rather, you've got his actions wrong; you're not paying attention.

He's not insisting that more evidence needs to be provided that Obama is a citizen.

He's saying that providing such evidence would make the birthers look even more stupid.

Thats exactly what I'm saying. The two sides of the argument are Side A 'If you show it to us we'll go away' and Side B saying 'What we showed you is good enough!' Since side A clearly disagrees with side B's assertion and won't back down, for the argument to progress, Side B has to either show the doccument requested or conceede that the issue won't be resolved. I say show them the thing and be done with it.

I'm not sure that's what he's saying, and I'll admit that my response was colored by my knowledge of Chewie's voting record and his political stance. So I'm formally apologizing to Chewie - sorry dude.

I accept your appology, its easy to fly off the handle here, Lord knows I've done it before. For future clarification, I am a conservative, christian republican who is also a teacher. I support gay marriage, I'm pro life, and my girlfriend (and hopefully fiance) is 100% nonwhite.

Welcome to the 21st century Wrap your brain around that.

[Simon_Jester]

It wouldn't be a 'big deal' to me, because the problems I have with Obama aren't his parentage. I feel that his upbringing outside the US gives him a more 'global' rather than 'american' mindset, and it is my personal preference that my President put America first. I would have the same issue with a white man who spent most of his early life in Germany or South Africa being President as well.

I don't think this is an issue for a man who's spent his adult life, the entirety of his career and the majority of his youth, in the US. Nothing about Obama strikes me as showing that he is any more or less "American" than any of the many authentically, indisputably native-born Americans I know. Indeed, I can think of people born and raised in this country who show much less characteristically American attitudes than Obama.

[Duckie]

It's kind of hilarious that I'd be elligible for the presidency even though I hate america and everything it stands for, but a patriotic immigrant wouldn't. Someone who has actually chosen to be in a country is almost always a thousand times more worthy of steering the state than someone who merely was born on the land in my opinion.

The requirement for native-born status for the presidency both excludes candidates that should be able to and includes those who have no interest in it- a pointless and arbitrary restriction that used to perhaps have a use before 1800, maybe, assuming a loyalist briton being elected and the country being given back to britain by democratic action was ever a threat. Now it exists used merely because of american xenophobia and racism, and also staunch laziness and conservativism preventing the constitution from having ever been revised to remove something that shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[Gandalf]

I feel that his upbringing outside the US gives him a more 'global' rather than 'american' mindset, and it is my personal preference that my President put America first.

This makes no sense to me. What is an American mindset, as opposed to a global one?

[FSTargetDrone]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. The two sides of the argument are Side A 'If you show it to us we'll go away' and Side B saying 'What we showed you is good enough!' Since side A clearly disagrees with side B's assertion and won't back down, for the argument to progress, Side B has to either show the doccument requested or conceede that the issue won't be resolved. I say show them the thing and be done with it.

Why should they show them anything else now? There is nothing to concede. The issue is resolved. All the people in the various levels of government and/or record-keeping that actually matter have gone above and beyond trying to answer these clowns and none of it was good enough. No other documentation will ever be good enough. Why continue to feed that particular strain of troll? The "Side A" here will never, ever be satisfied. Ever. There is nothing you can say or do to convince the people who have these deep-seated conspiracy theories that they are wrong. I see no reason or benefit to continue to treat these fringe groups as people with legitimate concerns.

[Isolder74]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. The two sides of the argument are Side A 'If you show it to us we'll go away' and Side B saying 'What we showed you is good enough!' Since side A clearly disagrees with side B's assertion and won't back down, for the argument to progress, Side B has to either show the doccument requested or conceede that the issue won't be resolved. I say show them the thing and be done with it.

Why should they show them anything else now? There is nothing to concede. The issue is resolved. All the people in the various levels of government and/or record-keeping that actually matter have gone above and beyond trying to answer these clowns and none of it was good enough. No other documentation will ever be good enough. Why continue to feed that particular strain of troll? The "Side A" here will never, ever be satisfied. Ever. There is nothing you can say or do to convince the people who have these deep-seated conspiracy theories that they are wrong. I see no reason or benefit to continue to treat these fringe groups as people with legitimate concerns.

Agreed.

They were already given what they asked for but as soon as it was done they found a way to say it wasn't legitimate. Even if a document showing his cute little footprints on it was shown they'd find a way to ignore that. If my research is correct not every state even does that today as part of a birth certificate. The document already posted should be good enough. Of course it wasn't, and why? They came up with a BS reason that has nothing to do with issue just so it can still be an issue. The one shown is what the state of Hawaii will give out when a request for said records is asked for even by the person who the Birth certificate belongs to. The only way to give them completely what they want is to go into the vault that holds the records open up the file and display the original document.

Given their current MO, they'll just call it a forgery. There is no point in trying to satiate them any further.

[Patrick Degan]

I feel that his upbringing outside the US gives him a more 'global' rather than 'american' mindset, and it is my personal preference that my President put America first.

This makes no sense to me. What is an American mindset, as opposed to a global one?

"America FUCK YEH and FUCK EVERYBODY ELSE!" GOP-approved version, of course.

[Zaune]

I wouldn't have put it quite as colourfully as Patrick, but I'm inclined to agree that a few years spent living abroad would be a desirable trait to look for in the next US president. If nothing else, it would do them good to experience firsthand something of the Teabaggers are afraid the Democrats want to turn the United States into, so they can decide for themselves whether it's all that bad.

[Thanas]

Plus, you are not a Kulturmensch unless you have been to at least one of the four major European cities (Rome, Istanbul, Paris, London). Just walking through one of them makes you appreciate European culture.

[Vendetta]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. The two sides of the argument are Side A 'If you show it to us we'll go away' and Side B saying 'What we showed you is good enough!' Since side A clearly disagrees with side B's assertion and won't back down, for the argument to progress, Side B has to either show the doccument requested or conceede that the issue won't be resolved. I say show them the thing and be done with it.

The problem is Chewie that Side B did show the document that was requested, and Side A simply claimed that this was not in fact the document in question at all and that there was another document that Side B was not showing. This second document only exists in the delirium of the people calling for it to be shown, which is why Side B is not showing it.

This is like me demanding that you show a picture of your face, and then when you do so I demand that you show your real face, the one you keep on your ass.

[bobalot]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. The two sides of the argument are Side A 'If you show it to us we'll go away' and Side B saying 'What we showed you is good enough!' Since side A clearly disagrees with side B's assertion and won't back down, for the argument to progress, Side B has to either show the doccument requested or conceede that the issue won't be resolved. I say show them the thing and be done with it. <---What the fuck?

Seriously, did you deliberately miss all that stuff I posted earlier?

[Kodiak]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. The two sides of the argument are Side A 'If you show it to us we'll go away' and Side B saying 'What we showed you is good enough!' Since side A clearly disagrees with side B's assertion and won't back down, for the argument to progress, Side B has to either show the doccument requested or conceede that the issue won't be resolved. I say show them the thing and be done with it. <---What the fuck?

Seriously, did you deliberately miss all that stuff I posted earlier?

I think what he's referring to is this statement by state officials:

"I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago...."

So yes, we all understand that the certificate of live birth is a birth certificate. What Chewie is (and I believe many birthers are) referring to is that aforementioned "original vital record" i.e. If it exists, why not just bring it out of the file cabinet? Is the original record something different than the certificate of live birth, or is the latter an exact reproduction of the former?

[Thanas]

Double post deleted.

[CaptainChewbacca]

That's what I'm talking about. I know there's the doccument that has been shown, my position is IF there is another doccument which is in ANY WAY different or provides more information (which seems to be the case) then showing it would force birthers to either conceede the point or look more idiotic than they already do.

If the doccument posted on an earlier page is a 100% carbon-copy of that doccument and nothing else exists, then nothing else can be done. It seems it has been said in this thread that while the Certificate of Live Birth is an official doccument, there exists SOMETHING which is somehow 'more'.

[Zed]

From another thread where this was discussed, on a different board:

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/t ... 09.15.html

I get nasty chills when I think about Trump as president. Not the right guy for the job. Treasury, maybe.

As for the "birther" thing, I am not one but I am a historian, curious, and someone with very good intuition. Something stinks.

I have only one question concerning the whole affair: Why won't the man just authorize the release of the actual long-form document and be done with it? Most of the members of this space are thinkers as well, can you explain this strange scenario in any rational fashion?

Your question has been answered, ad nauseum. He can't "just release" his long form document. There are entirely reasonable privacy issues -- not just his, but the privacy of the doctor, etc., that attended the birth. Hawaii law restricts the release of the long-form certificate of birth to only those with a verifiable need to have such access. The general public at large simply doesn't fit that restriction, and the people who are supposed to have access to verify the document have done just that.

I realize that this simple answer doesn’t fit in with the birther’s firm belief that a huge conspiracy of government officials, major Hawaii newspapers, and the entire vital statistic’s staff, just to name a few, worked in concert starting in 1961 to put an unknown African-American man into the US Presidency some 40+ years later, but there it is.

He’s been checked. The birth certificate has been verified, and he is, in fact, a US citizen. The only thing that stinks is the overwhelming odor of paranoia coming from the birther camp.

[Dalton]

Like I said earlier, there is a more detailed and complete birth certificate on record with the Hawaii Dept. Of Health which is not available for release even to the person on the fucking thing. Listen, CC. When a Hawaiian-born person asks for a copy of their birth certificate, they get a certificate of live birth, which is legally admissible for fulfilling any and all documentation requirements.

What you and the Birthers keep missing is the fact that the original was checked by government health officials in 2007. Even the Republican McCain-supporting governor acknowledged the legitimacy. Obama needs no further proof. Fuck the Birthers, Obama's American. Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Releasing the original is unnecessary and as far as I know against State of Hawaii law.

If you are a Birther... Here's your sign.

[Thanas]

WTF Chewie, Kodiak?

Here is the full text of her statement:

“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai‛i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai‘i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

What was that original statement:

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital
Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

"Vital records" is a specific legal term. It means, in the words of, for example, the Florida code:

(15) “Vital records” or “records” means certificates or reports of birth, death, fetal death, marriage, dissolution of marriage, name change filed pursuant to s. 68.07, and data related thereto.

The only one applicable to Obama here and the only record kept in Hawaii is the birth certificate. So when they released that, they released the only original "vital record" there is. When the Director is speaking about vital records, she means the birth certificate as it is the only one there is.

In other word, if people are confused about this they either are too dumb to look up "vital records" in a legal dictionary, right-wing partisans or a combination of both.

People can crow all they want about why the long-form certificate was not issued, but that is due to privacy concerns and because the laws forbid it. Besides, you would have all the information of the physicians/Nurses who attended and I have a kind of feeling that these people have a right to be protected from nutters.

[The Kernel]

Well well well, have a look at this interesting turn of events.

The Hill

Real estate mogul Donald Trump said Tuesday he could run for president as an Independent if he's unable to win the Republican nomination in 2012.

Trump, the reality TV star who has been flirting with a run for president, suggested that other Republicans vying for the party's nomination are concerned he might wage a third-party campaign, which Trump said he thought was a viable path to the White House.

"The concern is, if I don't win, will I run as an Independent? And the answer is probably yes," Trump said in a video interview with The Wall Street Journal.

Trump has received surprisingly encouraging poll numbers in recent weeks, surging to a tie for second place behind former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney (R) in the most recent NBC/Wall Street Journal poll.

The host of NBC's "The Apprentice" has gotten traction out of questioning whether President Obama was born in the U.S., lumping Trump in with the crowd of "birthers" most establishment Republicans have generally sought to avoid.

Trump has considered running for president in the past but ultimately begged off. In the 2000 election, he also flirted with a third-party run, exploring the possibility of seeking the Reform Party's nomination.

That party, founded by billionaire Ross Perot, largely fizzled out after the 1992 and 1996 presidential elections. Trump contended that, if he went the third-party route, he would begin the effort with a better standing than Perot.

"To be honest with you, I think it'd be very, very bad for the Republican Party, because they did some polls recently where I get 29 percent as an Independent. That's a lot — far more than Ross Perot ever got," Trump said.

He said he was actively thinking about the possibility of running as an Independent, but expressed worry that doing just that would only hurt the eventual GOP's chances against Obama.

"I'm thinking about that, and that's bothered me, because I'm very conservative," said Trump, who's set to make a final decision about running in June.

Didn't I say that Trump was only helping Obama? He could turn out to be a bigger spoiler than Ross Perot.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Like I said earlier, there is a more detailed and complete birth certificate on record with the Hawaii Dept. Of Health which is not available for release even to the person on the fucking thing. Listen, CC. When a Hawaiian-born person asks for a copy of their birth certificate, they get a certificate of live birth, which is legally admissible for fulfilling any and all documentation requirements.

What you and the Birthers keep missing is the fact that the original was checked by government health officials in 2007. Even the Republican McCain-supporting governor acknowledged the legitimacy. Obama needs no further proof. Fuck the Birthers, Obama's American. Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Releasing the original is unnecessary and as far as I know against State of Hawaii law.

Alright, so its illegal. I never thought Obama wasn't born in the US, so they never needed to prove it to me. I just thought producing this additional doccument would shut some people up, but it looks like the birthers might as well be demanding pictures of Santa fucking the Tooth Fairy.

[Kodiak]

Thanks for the clarification, Thanas. I have never doubted Obama's citizenship, I just didn't understand until now WHY the president can't get a long form copy of his own birth certificate- it's an issue of Hawaii state privacy laws.

[PeZook]

Donald Trump's eventual opposition should scream he's not an American citizen and keep demanding more and more proof that he is, in fact, an American, since his mother was Scottish - a filthy Euro socialist, no doubt.