'The isoton'

[SirNitram]

Wow, you completely mispresent me. I'm not surprised.

I'm not gonna bother to reply to the whole thing. Anyone who actually looks at the debate realizes you're wrong. I'll just point out the most stupid things you state.

'It's two orders of magnitude less! It's a different situation!' They also were there for three hours, not five minutes. A major change, as anyone, oh, sane and intelligent would notice. Solar prominences are also more deadly than the mere corona.. As we see when a small, slow moving one annihilates a Cube. Do you care? Nope. Because acknowledging it would destroy your argument. Do you care? No...

By the way, for those reading with a mind capable of thought:

Descent, Part Two.

The surface of the star would have an upper limit of 64 MW/m². With a ~78,000 m² projected area, the E-D would have absorbed a mere 5TW. Oh goody. It sustained this for five minutes. That's 1500 TJ, or roughly 350 kilotons.

They were not, I should note, any deeper than the corona. They fired down onto the surface of the star to induce a prominence(Which blew a Cube up, yay for ingenius use of stellar material).

Relics.

Pulled into orbit around the star inside the Dyson Sphere, the Enterprise-D winds up a mere 150,000Km from the surface. This region has an energy density of 25 MW/m², so the E-D would absorb 2TW or so. Keep in mind the Enterprise was damaged and partially offline at this point due to the Dyson Sphere's tractor beams. Data states: In three hours, our shields will no longer be be sufficient to protect us.

Of course, any sane man will see this is far worse than five minute absorbing 5TW.

Keep in mind, at all times, the E-D was not fully online at the time during Relics. But it still survived the harsh treatment.

Therefore anyone can see the Metaphasic Shields vastly underperformed in comparison to normal shields. Most likely, this 'revolutionary' technology was found to be not advanced enough, practically, and taken back to the lab to refine it.

[TheDarkling]

Also in Descent part 2 the ship is reaching critical hull temperatures but as soon as the metaphasic shields come online the ships hell temp goes to none critical temps thus provingthat metaphasic shields do have a use that means it is better to use it than normal shields.

We are also told that the reasearch is "in the databanks" further evidence, why would the reasearch just be in the ent-d it must have ben sent back to starfleet since the feds transmit data and reports back to SF HQ.

[SirNitram]

Also in Descent part 2 the ship is reaching critical hull temperatures but as soon as the metaphasic shields come online the ships hell temp goes to none critical temps thus provingthat metaphasic shields do have a use that means it is better to use it than normal shields.

We are also told that the reasearch is "in the databanks" further evidence, why would the reasearch just be in the ent-d it must have ben sent back to starfleet since the feds transmit data and reports back to SF HQ.

Because they entered the outer Corona in Relics and managed with their normal shields just fine.

[TheDarkling]

In relics they didnt even have shields up until they started seeing flares and once they came online they only have 30 % now in Descent the shields have 67% and are letting in too much heat until the MP shields come online.

Its clear that MP shields are better at holding off radiation and heat, do you dispute this? if so explain why the hull temp suddenly lowers to safe levels after the MP shields are raised.

[SirNitram]

In relics they didnt even have shields up until they started seeing flares and once they came online they only have 30 % now in Descent the shields have 67% and are letting in too much heat until the MP shields come online.

Its clear that MP shields are better at holding off radiation and heat, do you dispute this? if so explain why the hull temp suddenly lowers to safe levels after the MP shields are raised.

I dispute it because it is plainly shown to be wrong. They withstand bombardment in the same order of magnitude, with prominences all around them, with systems offline, for three hours in Relics.

[TheDarkling]

So its magic that the hull temp suddenly drips?

We have you telling us that the area they were was fine for bare hull in relics but in descent it was harming the hull past the normal shields - doesnt that imply something funky is going on?

So basically all these years SF could have been flying into suns with no shields and been ok - who could they have been so wrong? and the borg dont know either, well I think whats happening is obvious Q keeps his statsh hidden inside stars and hes created a huge cover up to prevent peolpe the galaxy over from realising suns arent harmfull to bare hulls let alone shields:roll:

[SirNitram]

So its magic that the hull temp suddenly drips?

We have you telling us that the area they were was fine for bare hull in relics but in descent it was harming the hull past the normal shields - doesnt that imply something funky is going on?

So basically all these years SF could have been flying into suns with no shields and been ok - who could they have been so wrong? and the borg dont know either, well I think whats happening is obvious Q keeps his statsh hidden inside stars and hes created a huge cover up to prevent peolpe the galaxy over from realising suns arent harmfull to bare hulls let alone shields

I'm telling you what canonically happened, dumbass. That you dislike this is not my problem.

The Metaphasic shields obviously helped a bit, but they also, to anyone who actually watches the episodes, were inferior to main shields when it comes to this. They obviously weren't 'fine' with bare hull, if you actually read my post(Which I knew you wouldn't), as Data pointed out they had three hours before the shields wouldn't be protecting them anymore.

[TheDarkling]

Yes I know what happened I dug the episode out and watched it and until Data spots the flares they have no shields up because Picard then orders Worf to raise the shields, at this point worf reports thats shields are only aroung the 30% mark.

Yet in Descent the ship cant handle the heat and radiation with 60% shields (and they head deeper into the star).

You also now admit that metaphasic shields do reduce the hgeta and radiation getting in past normal shields thus they are better than normal shields.

The incident in Relics and in Descent part 2 are different for the following reasons.


Descent: Normal Shields at 60% cant handle Heat and Radiation.
Relics:Until flares appear bare hull can take heat and radiation, once flares appear 30% shields can handle heat and radiation.
Descent:Heat is getting past the shields but shields arent in danger of failing.
Relics:Dmaage is being prevented by shiel;ds but shields will fail.


Thus for whatever reaons the two incidents cant be the same unless you now claim that the Ent-d had a huge hull upgarde (enough to give hull equivalent strength to over 67% shields).

Once the shields are raised (disregarded hull upgrade - which we cant but I wish to make an example) we must assume that the Ent-D's shields have at least doubled in strength and now block solar heat and radiation instead of filtering some out (this is a major change in how they work infact the only shields we have seen function in this manner i.e stop all heat for a time then fail is metaphasic shielding).

Conclusion - Ent-D undergoes HUGE upgrades whereby is hull can now stand temps of upto 2 Million K without flinching and its shields have doubled in power and changed functionality to resemble metphasic shielding.

Conclusion 2-The two incidents are not the same.

Conclusion 3-Even though it is not mentioned the shields the ship is using are metaphasic however this does not account for the super shielding.

[TheDarkling]

I am apologise the situation becomes even more amazing because Relics happens before Descent Part 2 thus for some unknown reason the Federation actually strips this super armor and shielding from the Ent-D (without even changing what the ship looks like at all) and even further fantastical is the fact that these huge downgrades took place in less than two weeks (looking at stardate gaps between episodes to determine when these downgrades could have taken place) we also have no mention of them whatsoever - they only conlusion this can foster is that the Feds can re-armor an entire Galaxy Class starship and replace its shield grid and take it on shakedown cruises inside of two weeks, this show unbefore seen industrial strength on the Feds part.

This is not the most sinister of all however the startling facts SirNitram has uncovered point to a deception of huge proportions when just 6 months later hte entire Federation/Klingon/Feregi governments know nothing of the Feds taking a strole into a star, it seems in fact amazing that Beverley cant remember it either - a huge effort is being made to cover up the facts it would seem.

[SirNitram]

Wow, you're a fucking moron. That's all that needs saying. Tell yourself you won, kiddo. It's obvious to all others you didn't.

[TheDarkling]

No I have changed my mind its all true the Feds have some deep dark secret, they have huge powers of construstion unseen before and many other abilities.

PLease SirNitram tell me some more .

You have got nothing you havent answered my points at all on why the too incidents you also didnt read my full post on the subject, you didnt refute the parts of that post when they were broken down in fact for the last 3 pages you have moaned and whined but not come up with Jack and now you are bailing because guess what, you are wrong you havent refuted a single point of mine in the last few pages thus I formally accept your concessions on those points.

Its obviouys to others that you reinventing the enitre federation and the Ent-D is complete idiocy and its also clear that you havent debated of refuted my points? why because you cant yet you wont bow out gracefully and simple nash you teeth - you will recall I wanted to let it drop ages ago but I am happy I had a good laugh over your complete colapse.

That being said I very much doubt anyone has read this far and we should have stopped this debate when I suggested because neither of us have changed position simply because you refuse to.

[beyond hope]

I remember another bit of technology that was hailed as a "revolutionary advance" in Federation ship-building and then vanished without a trace from there. Remember transwarp drive, anyone?

Let's see, why did it vanish? Oh yeah, it didn't work. So sad...

That would be my take on this: Starfleet tried out multiphasic shields and they found out (like the calcs indicate) that they're LESS effective than regular shields are. Add the fact that you can't shoot through them because you can't open a frequency window in the shield, and they don't look like they're useful for much at all. That's probably why you only hear of them 3 times.

Darkling, a really good analogy here would be the F-16 with forward-swept wings that the Air Force was testing. Can we just assume that every air force base in the country has a squadron of them, because we've seen one example? NO. This is the point that Nitram keeps trying to make to you and you keep missing.

[TheDarkling]

Except the fact that it does work the calcs SirNitram raise dont work because the situations arent similar unless you state that downgrades I mentioned.

The metaphasic shield may not have as much staying power as a normal shield (I have however answered all of SirNitrams points on the subject just look at what I have already stated about th three events in comparision to each other - they cant be compared because they arent consistant and thus the situation in descent is far worse than relics somehow) but they are still the only shield that allows a starship to enter deep into a star.
Another note here - Jo Bril expected to sit inside the star until the Ent-D left Crusher for dead therefore he didnt have any concerns about the shield failing (he had looked over the research on the shield so should have had knowledge on its abilities), we are also told that Geordi may not have completed his metaphasic program explaining its instability.


The tech was hailed as revolutionary so it is a huge advance and we do see it working as it is supposed to now for it covering up the entire pectrum Im afraid I cant agree with that it is afterall possible to communicate and get sensor data with the metaphasic shield up.

We also see he Ent-D fire phasers whilst its metaphasic shield is up so the only possible problem would be Torps however there is little evidence to suggest that torps would not be able to penetrate the shield.

However even if the shield prevented weapons fire (which it doesnt as show above) it would not invalidate the shields use since it is simply used to research stars and it isnt that often that this requires weapons fire.

We also never saw transwarp working (transwarp may have simply been a more powerful form of warp drive - the term has been applied to many things and this may account for increased warp speed during TNG) but we have seen metapahsic shielding working on several occasions.

Has the US AirForce erased all knowledge of this? No I didnt think so - you can not compare the two because metaphasic shields can be put on any fed vessel with minimal effort (if any effort other than this program is needed - which we see no indication of) however actually modifying the hardware of an entire fleet is a major undertaking.

I am not saying every Fed vessel can employ a metaphasic shield at the drop of a hat what I am saying is if they need to eneter a star the nifo is there and if they are sent to scan a star they would use this amazing tool.

[beyond hope]

Okay, so now you're saying that metaphasic shields may or may not be less effective than regular shields and this may or may not be due to Geordi not having the program right. Still, it's a "revolutionary" new technology. So, why isn't it on all Federation ships? Why do they continue to use the inferior standard shields if metaphasic shields are so much better?

I made the comparison with the forward-swept wing fighter in the hopes that you'd get the idea with a real-life analogy to compare it to (and I was wrong, it was a variant of the F-5.) You trying to claim that metaphasic shields are common Fed technology would be no different than if I pointed out the two X-29 prototypes and said "and because we've seen two, the Air Force must have dozens of them." You haven't shown anywhere along the line here that metaphasic shields are in common use on Fed ships.

[/quote]

[Setesh]

*Slaps Darkling and Sir Nitrim up side the head*

Sir Nitram concede that every ship has the Metaphasic shield in their databank.

Darkling concede that the Feddies are simply to stupid to use it.

Problem solved move on.

[TheDarkling]

beyond hope: Metaphasic shielding isnt any better against weapons fire (at least we have no evidence of such) thats why we havent seen other ships using it - because they havent been into stars and needed to use it.

Your comparison is flawed because you are stating a hardware upgrade not a piece of knowledge, the US airforce cant just unch a few buttons and alter the structure of its planes so that they all conform to new specs however that is exactly what Matephasic shields involve.

Setesh: I seee no reason why the Feds would just forget this technology, any ship thats sent to fly into a star would need this tech = I cant see SF canceling such missions for no reason.

[Setesh]

Two points:
One: I didn't say they would forget, but Feds have a tendency not to be bright enough to remember it exists. Remember this was an invention whos sole use is scientific research, probably of interest to Trek theorists and researchers who would need it. Chances are this is the kind of news most people would glance over and promptly forget. To put it in context, if this had happened on a ship other than the EntD, would Picard read a news story on it, or skip to the latest archeology news?

Two: Why the hell would you want to do something so insanly stupid as traval into a star? I could see equiping probes with it but actually sending people rates right up there with kicking Gojira in the nads.

[TheDarkling]

That was the entire point of the shield, so starships with all their nice sensors that couldnt fit on a probe (and before metaphasics a probe would have been toasted anyway) could enter into a star and get some nice readings and such.

Also kicking a giant reptile isnt stupid its expressing a deathwish then having that wish granted .

[Setesh]

Of course installing a sensor relay instead of risking the 300 odd people on board an Oberth to a sheild which gives you only minutes of protection would never occur to them. Plus IIRC it was once stated that a class 9 probe has better sensors than most starships.

[beyond hope]

I stand by the comparison because I'd be doing the same thing you're doing: claiming on the basis of a few examples that something is in general use.

By the way, why does the Trek side like to pull metaphasic shields out of their ass all the time in vs. debates if they don't help against weapons fire? (just curious)

[TheDarkling]

beyond hope: I dont know, I have actually asked why metaphasics would be useful in a Vs situation three times in this thread - I got no answer.

Your comparison is flawed we are told the reasearch is in the databanks so thats it really all my other proof is here but the above point combined with the fact it gives SF a unique ability and theres no reason to abandon it carries the day.