Earthquake off Japan

[wautd]

Appearantly the prime minister just stated that an area in a 20-30 milae radius of the reactor won't be habitable for the next 2 decades. That's hundreds of thousands of people who need to be relocated and for which a new roof needs to be built or found.

[AndroAsc]

For those who were laughing at me a week earlier that I was over-reacting... just a few days ago even the Japanese have escalated the situation to Level 7 (aka Chernobyl level). Admittedly, even I was surprised. I honestly thought that it was Level 6 all along...

Even the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume have admitted that the risk is no longer negligible.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/health/radia ... ews-503947

Seriously guys... wake up. We have independent reports (from some UC school) stating that I-131 levels in rainwater are way above normal, and yet the EPA continues to lie that all things are OK. No dude... the situation is not OK, especially those of you who live in the West Coast. No, I am not advocating eating KI pills now, I don't think it has come to that stage yet... but this is not something to be brushed off. I hope some of you have Geiger counters to do your own fact finding...

[Simon_Jester]

Your failure to read the thread is self-evident, as we were just discussing this. "Level 7 nuclear accident" does not mean "as bad as Chernobyl," it means "released more than X radiation in some form."

The amount of radiation varies- as noted earlier, Fukushima has released one tenth the radiation as Chernobyl. The nature of the release has a huge effect which I suspect you neither know nor care nor believe you need to know or care about.

This is not something to be brushed off, but it is something to be dealt with by a rational assessment of what is actually going on, not paranoid ravings or "AAAH! NUCLEAR! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!" And a rational assessment of the risks here is pretty much what's already happened- an exclusion zone has been drawn around the plant, work to cut off the ongoing remnant fission in the cores continues.

[Sharp-kun]

Appearantly the prime minister just stated that an area in a 20-30 milae radius of the reactor won't be habitable for the next 2 decades. That's hundreds of thousands of people who need to be relocated and for which a new roof needs to be built or found.

Will be interesting how many people decide to stay regardless.

[someone_else]

Remember, too, it's not 8 days and it's done, it's 8 days and only half as radioactive. Start with a big enough quantity and it's still enough to be a problem after 8 days, or 16....

16 days and only 1/4 as radioactive, 24 days and only 1/8 as radioactive... add that to the fact that in that time it diluites itself over huge areas and you get that stuff not grown in Japan is wildly unlikely to concentrate anything to a dangerous extent.

Especially so if the most radioactive stuff isn't in the air but in the water that is dumped in the sea every now and then. Takes a while for it to actually reach us.

"Level 7 nuclear accident" does not mean "as bad as Chernobyl," it means "released more than X radiation in some form."

The fun fact is that most of the stuff released is still iodine, that disappears in months (stuff released at the beginning is now only 1/10 as radioactive now).
Seriously, that nuclear incident scale could have been made better even by Greenpeace nuts.

Even the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume have admitted that the risk is no longer negligible.

Taking preemptive measures doesn't mean that there is actual danger. The entire point behind preemptive measures is "act before there is an actual danger, so if shit happens you are ready". You begin to enact such measures when the "risk of shit hitting the fan" is no more acceptably low, but that doesn't mean all milk and dairies in the world are suddenly MURDEROUSLY RADIOACTIVE. And that THE NWO POWERS ARE COVERING IT UP.

Will be interesting how many people decide to stay regardless.

That will be more an indication of personal wealth than of actual threat assessment. It's not like most people can find money to buy a brand new home at the blink of an eye.

[Broomstick]

There is also the age factor - someone 70 or 80 years old may reasonable choose to stay, as they will not be producing children and it is unlikely that radiation induced cancer would claim them before old age does. This is why you have old folks living in the Chernobyl exclusion zone. It is more dangerous for children and people still having children, who would have more incentive to leave.

That is, in no way, to imply older folks SHOULD stay - just that if some choose to do so it may be a reasonable choice under some circumstances.

[fnord]

Broomstick, I thought the in-reactor I-131 inventory would also be decaying with that half life (not counting parent decays), thus also reducing the source term.

However, it's looking like I've completely botched my understanding of the health physics involved.

[PeZook]

Some fission might still be ongoing in one or more cores due to damage of the fuel assembly, as I understand it.

[Broomstick]

Yes, the I-131 in the reactor is decaying, but as noted, if any fission is continuing in the reactors or spent fuel piles that would provide a resupply of it.

[AndroAsc]

Even the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume have admitted that the risk is no longer negligible.

Taking preemptive measures doesn't mean that there is actual danger. The entire point behind preemptive measures is "act before there is an actual danger, so if shit happens you are ready". You begin to enact such measures when the "risk of shit hitting the fan" is no more acceptably low, but that doesn't mean all milk and dairies in the world are suddenly MURDEROUSLY RADIOACTIVE. And that THE NWO POWERS ARE COVERING IT UP.

Yes, taking preemptive measures is important. So why are the American people not being told to take any and instead are being lied to by the govt saying everything is OK? If the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume are already taking preventive measures, it only stands to reason that people living on the West Coast should.

[AndroAsc]

Some fission might still be ongoing in one or more cores due to damage of the fuel assembly, as I understand it.

Interesting that you brought up this point, and even recent news from mainstream media has reported this... when I said the very same thing weeks ago (about the possibility of spent fuel rods having a burn fest if this is not brought under control in a timely manner)... and was dismissed back then.

I'm going to say I TOLD YOU SO... just to piss off those who dismissed the risk associated with the spent fuel rods.

The major concern now I think is the long-lived radioisotopes like Cs and Sr that are being released continuously as the situation develops with no solution in sight... and we have no concrete data on how much is being released.

[Thanas]

If the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume are already taking preventive measures, it only stands to reason that people living on the West Coast should.

What now? What measures are the Europeans taking?

[AndroAsc]

If the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume are already taking preventive measures, it only stands to reason that people living on the West Coast should.

What now? What measures are the Europeans taking?

Do you even bother to READ the link I provided?

"The document, published on 7 April, advises against consuming rainwater and says vulnerable groups such as children and pregnant or breastfeeding women should avoid consuming vegetables with large leaves, fresh milk and creamy cheese."

[aerius]

Yes, taking preemptive measures is important. So why are the American people not being told to take any and instead are being lied to by the govt saying everything is OK? If the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume are already taking preventive measures, it only stands to reason that people living on the West Coast should.

Because the levels are so damn low that a fucking granite countertop has 50-100% more radiation coming out of it.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/califor ... /index.htm

[Thanas]

Do you even bother to READ the link I provided?

Yes. Unlike you, however, I am not retarded enough to take the rantings of an NGO as "measures taken by the government".

[Thanas]

@HisDivineShadow:

Regarding the leaks at German nuclear storage facility (and the utter incompetence of the nuclear industry), here is a link in German. People did tests a few days ago, apparently radiation levels are 24x higher than they are supposed to be.

[Tribun]

@HisDivineShadow:

Regarding the leaks at German nuclear storage facility (and the utter incompetence of the nuclear industry), here is a link in German. People did tests a few days ago, apparently radiation levels are 24x higher than they are supposed to be.

Ah, yes, the infamous Asse. In case there are questions, Asse essentially was used as a nuclear toilet for a prolonged time with the motto "flush down and forget". However, now there are big spillages and the whole thing threatens to release all this shit into the environment. The whole story is one of the reasons why nuclear power is massively disliked in Germany.

[Thanas]

^Don't forget when both SPD, CDU and other parties colluded in hiding the problems and then were all "shocked" when the things came to light eventually.

[Broomstick]

Yes, taking preemptive measures is important. So why are the American people not being told to take any and instead are being lied to by the govt saying everything is OK? If the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume are already taking preventive measures, it only stands to reason that people living on the West Coast should.

First of all, in what way is the US government “lying”? The radiation detected on the West Coast of North America have been publicized, and unless you can produce evidence of higher levels you have no proof of “lying” in that regard.

What “preventive measures” do you suggest? Evacuating the entire planet?

Nor does it occur to you that there might be some people over-reacting to the situation.

Some fission might still be ongoing in one or more cores due to damage of the fuel assembly, as I understand it.

Interesting that you brought up this point, and even recent news from mainstream media has reported this... when I said the very same thing weeks ago (about the possibility of spent fuel rods having a burn fest if this is not brought under control in a timely manner)... and was dismissed back then.

Apparently you think ANY fission whatsoever is a “burn fest”, whatever the hell you mean by that. You do understand there is a difference between a possible low-level fission and a reactor going full blast, right?

If the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume are already taking preventive measures, it only stands to reason that people living on the West Coast should.

What now? What measures are the Europeans taking?

Do you even bother to READ the link I provided?

"The document, published on 7 April, advises against consuming rainwater and says vulnerable groups such as children and pregnant or breastfeeding women should avoid consuming vegetables with large leaves, fresh milk and creamy cheese."

I read the link you provided and my first thought was “Who the fuck is EurActiv and why the hell should I believe them over anyone else?” Then I read a little further and thought “Who the fuck is CRIIRAD and why the fuck should I believe them over anyone else?” Because I don't just ask questions, I actually try to find the answers, I did a little on line searching.

Well, let's start with CRIIRAD, or Commission de Recherche et d'Information Indépendantes sur la Radioactivité. You know, it's all very well they're against radioactive substances in food or construction materials, but they're rather vague on the particulars. Certainly, no one (sane) advocates mixing nuclear waste into concrete, but are they also opposed to granite countertops with their natural radioactivity? It's great that they're qualified to do independent testing and I applaud the availability of such services, but I question if they're goals of eliminating all radiological risks is realistic given that the universe and the planet naturally contain some radioactivity. Admittedly, I have not read the entire website, but my fluency in French is considerably less than English so it takes me a lot longer to read and understand anything in that language.

As for EurActiv – they are correct that normally I-131 is not detectable in rainwater but that means ANY level that can be detected, no matter how small is “highly elevated” over normal. Nobody with a lick of sense was going to imagine that there would NEVER be any “fallout” over Europe from this recent accident. You know, normally volcanic dust isn't detectable in rainwater in most of the world, either, but after a major eruption you can find it. No one is applauding this, but it's hardly unexpected or surprising. I believe I've mentioned several times in this thread (though I am not intending to search 39 pages for the exact quotes) that it was inevitable some of the plume would drift over Europe eventually. So... why are you acting like this is a sudden revelation?

Frankly, I have to wonder if the nutritional damage done by telling pregnant women and children to avoid such foods as dairy and green leafy vegetables would outweigh the damage done by the level so I-131 detected so far in California, much less in the rest of North America or Europe.

And their recommendation not to let rainwater touch one's garden vegetables is ludicrous, as leaves will get rained on. Unless they're suggesting you stand over your turnips and cabbage with an umbrella.

I wish to direct you to relevant quote from the website linked by Aerius, on readings taken with a geiger counter by an independent completely unaffiliated with any government agency and presumably with no interest in downplaying findings or risk, who is in LaJolla, California on the “contaminated” West Coast of North America:

In fact, the biggest source of radiation in La Jolla is our granite counter tops. A reading near my kitchen countertops' backsplash read 37 CPM, or double the readings taken outdoors.

You're worried about the damned spinach and cabbage when the radiation from the countertop you're preparing it on is twice as high, even during such a “contaminated” situation as this!

[PeZook]

Interesting that you brought up this point, and even recent news from mainstream media has reported this... when I said the very same thing weeks ago (about the possibility of spent fuel rods having a burn fest if this is not brought under control in a timely manner)... and was dismissed back then.

How about you stop spewing bullshit for a while?

There may be some fission going on in the reactor cores. You were constantly advocating ridiculous measures that wouldn't have helped the situation at all, like dumping concrete from the air instead of resuming pump operations so that the reactors can be properly cooled down before entombment/disposal.

Where do the spent fuel rods come into it, exactly? At the moment, the problems are: 1) possible fission in the reactors and 2) A leak from one or more containment vessel

The major concern now I think is the long-lived radioisotopes like Cs and Sr that are being released continuously as the situation develops with no solution in sight... and we have no concrete data on how much is being released.

We don't, or you don't?

[someone_else]

Even the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume have admitted that the risk is no longer negligible.

Taking preemptive measures doesn't mean that there is actual danger. The entire point behind preemptive measures is "act before there is an actual danger, so if shit happens you are ready". You begin to enact such measures when the "risk of shit hitting the fan" is no more acceptably low, but that doesn't mean all milk and dairies in the world are suddenly MURDEROUSLY RADIOACTIVE. And that THE NWO POWERS ARE COVERING IT UP.

Yes, taking preemptive measures is important. So why are the American people not being told to take any and instead are being lied to by the govt saying everything is OK? If the Europeans who are not in the direct path of the radioactive plume are already taking preventive measures, it only stands to reason that people living on the West Coast should.

The way I see it, the main risk is eating stuff coming from japan, that is the only area where you can get (relatively) radioactive foodstuff. If some moron manages to slip by a stock of contaminated stuff that is then sold here, it causes problems.

I frankly don't know, maybe the US already placed a ban on such products coming from Japan while Europe didn't? Or maybe Europe doesn't trust so much his own customs to stop all the crap even if the ban was issued.

It's not the first time that they find restaurants using cheap non-European-labeled crap-food used years after the expiry date. (and nuke such places to oblivion)

[Magis]

A number of reactors have suffered a critical meltdown scenario and not SCRAM'd properly,

Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? The reactors underwent a SCRAM and shutdown moments after the earthquake. None of these reactors are critical, or even near being critical. The so-called "meltdown" - which is not a technical term, by the way, is the result of insufficient cooling of the fuel that was being heated by decay of existing radio-nuclides.

or at least are undergoing possible fission episodes of sub-criticality due to subsequent damage.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. There is no chain reaction. The chain reaction is done. The definition of subcriticality is that the chain reaction cannot support itself and will die out exponentially with time. That would have happened within a couple seconds of the SCRAM. Please understand this - fission is playing absolutely no role in this accident.

A lot of the problems encountered are in no way analogous to Chernobyl, and in many respects, can be far worse than Chernobyl in point of fact. We had one reactor blow the majority of itself up in '86, which despite what one may think by intuition, was actually a better outcome compared to several intact cores constantly leaking radioactive contaminants into the environment.

That is totally fucking absurd. Please justify how you think that a reactor releasing most of its radioactive inventory simultaneously over a large area is better than a reactor slowly releasing small amounts of its radioactive inventory in a secluded, uninhabited area. You're a fucking moron.

[wautd]

Link

Depression, stress, poor sanitation, diet: doctor
Nuke workers at risk of overwork death
Tokyo Electric Power Co. workers engaged in efforts to stabilize the crisis-hit Fukushima No.1 nuclear plant are at risk of depression or death from overwork, a doctor who recently examined them said Wednesday.





The workers are not only undertaking dangerous work in severe conditions but also feel a sense of moral responsibility as employees of the operator of the crippled plant, Takeshi Tanigawa said in an interview.

Many of the workers have been exposed to multiple stresses, he said, as some of them barely survived the March 11 quake and tsunami, as well as subsequent hydrogen explosions that wrecked the plant's reactors, while others lost their homes or saw kin or friends die.

"Many are complaining of difficulty sleeping and the risks of depression and death from overwork will rise further if this goes on," the doctor said after examining some 90 Tepco workers from Saturday through Tuesday at the nearby Fukushima No. 2 plant.

Some were also worried about radiation exposure and its long-term effects on their health, he added.

Tanigawa, a professor at Ehime University School of Medicine, has been a part-time industrial physician for the two Fukushima nuclear plants since 1991.

At the end of each day, workers are decontaminated and go to the Fukushima No. 2 nuclear plant some 10 km south to sleep on the floor of a gymnasium in sleeping bags with blankets. There are tatami mats on the floor and a sheet to insulate them from the cold, he said.

Among the workers was one engaged in work around the clock without being allowed to go out at one point, he said.

The workers are also on a poor diet, centering on canned and retort-packed foods, although they can now have three meals a day, up from the initial one daily.

Workers other than senior officials work in shifts of four days on and two days off, but cannot even take a bath during the four workdays despite sweating heavily in impervious radiation-protective gear, Tanigawa said.

"Being unable to feel refreshed, they are not only vulnerable to various diseases and skin disorders but also may commit errors in their work," Tanigawa warned.

Through interviews with about 30 of them, Tanigawa found that they are heavily stressed not only as a result of the pressure of their jobs but also by being asked by family members not to go to work.

One worker whose home was lost in the disaster felt exposed to negative perceptions in a shelter where the worker spent days off, the doctor said.

"More than 80 percent of the on-site employees have their homes within a 20-km radius of the nuclear plant and some of them have lost family members," he said, adding that concerns about their houses and lives will likely continue to distress them."It was also stressful for some workers who were unable to confirm the safety of families for as long as a week to continue working," he said. "On the other hand, they tend to feel indebted for working for an offending company and so cannot raise their voices."

About 50 of the workers were diagnosed with illnesses such as high blood pressure and colds, cluding one worker whom he instructed Tepco to replace due to a high fever, he said.

As the crisis continues, with Tepco aiming to stabilize damaged reactors in about six to nine months under a road map released Sunday, the utility must allow workers engaged in the crisis control efforts thus far to take a rest by mobilizing all its employees and asking other power utilities to dispatch workers if its workforce is insufficient, Tanigawa said.

"Employees engaged in the dangerous work have human rights and wives and children just like others. We should not treat their lives without due respect," he said.

Talk about slavery in the worst conditions.
If there was any justice, they'd send Tepco's CEO's instead.

[aieeegrunt]

"Workers other than senior officials work in shifts of four days on and two days off, but cannot even take a bath during the four workdays despite sweating heavily in impervious radiation-protective gear, Tanigawa said."

Oh of course, because they have things much much more important to do that just happen to involve hiding safely behind a desk in comfort.