Discussion about Communism continued

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TheKwas
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Re: Discussion about Communism continued

Post by TheKwas »

You are using the standard monopoly theory of Cournot, a theory about 200 years old. Modern microeconomic theory has evolved past it, though it is still taught. Also, this theory doesn't assume that public monopolies would be benevolent.

You are assuming that: Private monopolies and public monopolies have perfect information (wrong in practice), that they can only set 1 price (also wrong) and that private monopolies maximize profits (true), while public monopolies practice marginal cost pricing (untrue). Public monopolies are as selfish as private monopolies, and they don't have any incentives to reduce costs (they can operate with losses and the government pays them back with money from taxes).

Modern game theory shows that mutually beneficial trade doesn't takes place when information is imperfect. To maximize efficiency, you need to maximize the utilization of dispersed information. If monopolies had perfect information, they could simply discriminate prices and achieve perfect efficiency to maximize profits. The core problem of economics is information, as Hayek perceived in 1937.

You are using the standard assumption of the naive interventionist: that the government is benevolent and omniscient. The concept that government is omniscient was refuted (as if it needed to be refuted!) by Hayek (nobel prize in 1974) and the concept that governments are benevolent (that they maximize public good) was refuted by the Public Choice theory, whose master is James Buchanan, nobel prize in 1986. You also should evolve your defense of government intervention beyond the microeconomics 101, or become a liberal, like me.
This is such a stupid post, I literally laughed when I read it. Not only is it stupid and misses the point, it bleeds "Look at me I have an undergraduate degree in economics, LOOK AT ME!". Just because you can name drop doesn't mean you have a good grasp of what you are talking about.

At no point did Samuel assume perfect information, or that a monopoly can only set one price. That's what the Cournot model assumes (which is actually a model of duopoly, not monopoly, but the issue is similar enough to illustrate a point), but the Cournot model is just a model used to simplify reality. Even without these assumptions being 100% accurate, you can discover something important using models, and in the case of Cournot the lesson is that firms with market power (monopolies or duopolists or whatever) cut back on supply to raise prices and profits. Even without perfect information or a single price, that conclusion is still valid: private monopolies supply less and have higher prices. You don't even need an econ degree to understand that much, it's pretty clear from any look at monopolies in any economy.

The reason why Cournot and Bertrand models of duopoly are still taught in universities is because they still provide roughly accurate representations of how monopolies will act. If they weren't roughly accurate models, they wouldn't be taught.

You also don't have to assume that a government monopoly prices precisely at marginal cost. All you have to assume is that they price CLOSER TO marginal cost (or closer to the socially optimal price) than a private monopoly would, WHICH THEY DO! This isn't a controversial position in economics at all (which is why econ textbooks still recommend government intervention in natural monopolies), and Public Choice theory doesn't refute this conclusion in the slightest. The basic insight from Public Choice theory in this regard is that you can't treat an organization of any sort as benevolent, but must identify their interests which they will pursue. In the case of government monopolies, it's true that they aren't benevolent and will pursue their own interests, but in most cases in developed economies their own interests (generally appeasing their government overlords) still encourages them to produce much closer to the socially optimal output than private monopolies.
You also should evolve your defense of government intervention beyond the microeconomics 101, or become a liberal, like me.
For someone obviously trying so hard to present themselves as well-read in economic literature, I really recommend you go back over your basics, because you've clearly missed the point of learning models like the Cournot or Bertrand model. I suggest you evolve your criticism of government intervention to be based on substance, rather than dropping names then misrepresenting the econ literature you're name-dropping.
Modern game theory shows that mutually beneficial trade doesn't takes place when information is imperfect.
If this were true, then there would be no such thing as mutually beneficial trade, because there is no such thing as perfect information. I understand that English may be your second language, but I recommend you do more either more proof reading or thinking before posting.


PS: It's a bit ironic to have Paul Samuelson as your avatar and then say that Krugman is full of bullshit, considering that the two economists are/were on pretty much the exact same page on most issues, particularly Keynesian macroeconomics.
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Post by Thanas »

Darksider wrote:*sigh*

Sometimes I wonder if the wrong economic system came out on top during the Cold War. I won't speak to the merits of individual nations, as one seems very much like the other as far as exploiting the third world and general douchebaggery, but the Communist economic system in particular seems to have had much more focus on improving the collective nation as a whole rather than just one man getting rich.
And a whole focus on oppressing people, of course. And shooting those who want to live a free life, of course.
Ideally we would have formed more of a hybrid system that combined the best of both. Take Capitalism's greater freedom of innovation and thought, mix it with communism's focus on improving the whole of society rather than yourself, and you've got a decent recipe for a better world.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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Rye wrote: I suspect most of it will look like that.
Better images and technical trivia here.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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Falarica wrote:
PeZook wrote:Only a Russian probe could've managed to transmit pictures from that hellish place :D
At least they are finally going back with Venera-D.
Sounds like an STD.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Bakustra »

Thanas wrote:
Darksider wrote:*sigh*

Sometimes I wonder if the wrong economic system came out on top during the Cold War. I won't speak to the merits of individual nations, as one seems very much like the other as far as exploiting the third world and general douchebaggery, but the Communist economic system in particular seems to have had much more focus on improving the collective nation as a whole rather than just one man getting rich.
And a whole focus on oppressing people, of course. And shooting those who want to live a free life, of course.
I'm pretty sure that those were not foci of Salvador Allende's tenure as president of Chile. :)
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Thanas »

Bakustra wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Darksider wrote:*sigh*

Sometimes I wonder if the wrong economic system came out on top during the Cold War. I won't speak to the merits of individual nations, as one seems very much like the other as far as exploiting the third world and general douchebaggery, but the Communist economic system in particular seems to have had much more focus on improving the collective nation as a whole rather than just one man getting rich.
And a whole focus on oppressing people, of course. And shooting those who want to live a free life, of course.
I'm pretty sure that those were not foci of Salvador Allende's tenure as president of Chile. :)

They were, however, foci of the Soviet Union, the Warsaw Pact and Cuba. Along with those nice co-programs of forcing people to give up their children for adoption (because after all, if you want to flee to the west, you clearly must be insane) and a whole lot of other stuff that seriously would make you want to puke and/or hit those who idolize the Soviet Union.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Bakustra »

Sure, I can agree with the overall characterization of the Soviet bloc as generally oppressive. But on the other hand, the existence of the Red Army Fraktion doesn't make Die Linke an illegitimate political party, and Allende was close to the Communist Party in Chile without being a tyrant. I think that it's hard to denounce socialism as a economic system by denouncing the Soviet Union, because one would hardly denounce capitalism with Augusto Pinochet or Francisco Franco.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Thanas »

Bakustra wrote:Sure, I can agree with the overall characterization of the Soviet bloc as generally oppressive. But on the other hand, the existence of the Red Army Fraktion doesn't make Die Linke an illegitimate political party,
No. The unabashed apologism by people like Gregor Gysi and other idiots does (Heck, one even defended the Berlin Wall and another leading politician defended the measures taken by the Stasi as necessary and lawful) and that is the reason why the German police is keeping an eye on Die Linke. The RAF has nothing to do with the Linke.
I think that it's hard to denounce socialism as a economic system by denouncing the Soviet Union, because one would hardly denounce capitalism with Augusto Pinochet or Francisco Franco.
Good thing Darksider specifically mentioned the communist system of the USSR then. If you want to discuss socialism, you are going to have to look for another opponent. And of course, there is the small matter of all communist states being oppressive holes, while the same is not true for all capitalist states.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Bakustra »

Thanas wrote:
Bakustra wrote:Sure, I can agree with the overall characterization of the Soviet bloc as generally oppressive. But on the other hand, the existence of the Red Army Fraktion doesn't make Die Linke an illegitimate political party,
No. The unabashed apologism by people like Gregor Gysi and other idiots does (Heck, one even defended the Berlin Wall and another leading politician defended the measures taken by the Stasi as necessary and lawful) and that is the reason why the German police is keeping an eye on Die Linke. The RAF has nothing to do with the Linke.
Exactly. The two only share being on the socialist end of the spectrum (and I thought that only Internet Stalinists would seriously defend the Berlin Wall Image) generally, but differ in a number of ways. So too do democratic socialists and communists like Allende distinguish themselves from the Maoists and Stalinists who still justify terror and repression.
I think that it's hard to denounce socialism as a economic system by denouncing the Soviet Union, because one would hardly denounce capitalism with Augusto Pinochet or Francisco Franco.
Good thing Darksider specifically mentioned the communist system of the USSR then. If you want to discuss socialism, you are going to have to look for another opponent. And of course, there is the small matter of all communist states being oppressive holes, while the same is not true for all capitalist states.
He talked about the economic system of communism in the context of the Cold War. The collapse of the USSR didn't see the transition of much of the world to American-style democracies, but rather an economic shift through the Warsaw Pact and USSR. I doubt that any shift of the world towards communism would have been unilaterally dominated by anti-democratic movements. And while it's too early to really tell with Nepal, so far it hasn't exactly been marked by oppression in its period of communist-dominated governments, impoverished though it is.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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Bakustra wrote: And while it's too early to really tell with Nepal, so far it hasn't exactly been marked by oppression in its period of communist-dominated governments, impoverished though it is.
Assuming you ignore all that history pre 1991, of course.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Darksider »

*Points up*

What he said. I was merely expressing discontent with the way the world's economies have shifted more towards libertartd bullshit since the end of the cold war. I've got no love in me for the Soviet Union, i'm not Stas Bush. My problem is with the modern capitalist economic system which seems to be geared more towards fucking over the poor and rewarding the rich.

Like I said, Ideally the world would have shifted more towards economic and government systems that allow for greater freedom of thought and expression (IIRC There was also a considerable amount of censoring of art under the USSR as well.) but without shedding social safety nets as "communist."
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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That problem of shedding social safety nets however seems to be confined solely to the USA among the western world (and admittedly those of the former communist states).
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

The commies I argue with at Facebook would all say you are brainwashed by imperialistic Western capitalist lies.
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They are idiots and should all visit Bautzen.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

They think the Cultural Revolution is the best thing since sliced bread.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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Thanas wrote:That problem of shedding social safety nets however seems to be confined solely to the USA among the western world (and admittedly those of the former communist states).
Oh, that's not true, Thanas, you know that quite well. Neoliberalism as an ideology has triumphed globally (UK and France demonstrate the same shit). Some nations just suffered less from the results of said triumph.
Thanas wrote:...hit those who idolize the Soviet Union.
Well, can you hit me than? :lol: It's not necessary to idolize it or deplore it. People stick to an either-or concept of history. Frankly, the USSR should have never messed in Eastern Europe. As for most post-Soviet states, they are worse than the USSR and that's my final judgement which is not going to change - I've seen too much here.

But, this is testing, why is this all here? AARHARGH. :banghead: NO TALKING.... MUST... CONCENTRATE ON MY WORK. :lol:
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Stas Bush wrote:Oh, that's not true, Thanas, you know that quite well. Neoliberalism as an ideology has triumphed globally (UK and France demonstrate the same shit). Some nations just suffered less from the results of said triumph.
I'd actually argue the opposite. The UK was always bad in its social net (and the NHS is arguably a huge net benefit). Meanwhile, the changes made to France's social system are rather miniscule, as the core of the system still remains the same. I hardly thing a few more working hours are a tragedy or destroying the social system.

Well, can you hit me than? :lol: It's not necessary to idolize it or deplore it. People stick to an either-or concept of history. Frankly, the USSR should have never messed in Eastern Europe. As for most post-Soviet states, they are worse than the USSR and that's my final judgement which is not going to change - I've seen too much here.
Just because the aftereffects are worse does not in any way justify or absolve the USSR nor the heinous abuses it caused to its own population or to other nations.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:I'd actually argue the opposite. The UK was always bad in its social net (and the NHS is arguably a huge net benefit).
So Thatcherism did not happen?
Thanas wrote:Meanwhile, the changes made to France's social system are rather miniscule, as the core of the system still remains the same. I hardly thing a few more working hours are a tragedy or destroying the social system.
This is only a part of Sarkozy's enroachment on labour rights and democratic concepts in general. A few more hours to work, a few more years to work, et cetera. Also, pathetically bad migrant integration, a common feature of neoliberalist regimes. They use migrants as cheap labour during economic boom times, they are essential to fuel their construction industry, being expendable and guarantee-less, rightless workers. When crisis strikes, deportations and anti-migrant actions ensue, showing the massive hypocrisy of neoliberalism once again.
Thanas wrote:Just because the aftereffects are worse does not in any way justify or absolve the USSR nor the heinous abuses it caused to its own population or to other nations.
*eyes suspiciously* Who said anything about justifying or absolving the USSR of abuses? I don't think anything justifies or absolves the US and the heinous abuses it caused to its own population or to other nations. Does it mean I have to destroy the US and make its population plunge into poverty, misery, religious idiocy and tribalism? Hardly. Besides, the British Empire or the USA hardly ever properly apologized for its abuses, and they are and remain a continous government from beginning to end.

But hey, let's put it that way - no amount of German apologizing for the Nazi actions justifies or absolves them from these actions and heinous abuses to their own population and other nations. Germany should have remained forcibly partitioned (not in two parts, no - let's cut it in four or more parts!) and annihilated as an industrial power, its population should have fallen into poverty. I mean, sure, Morgenthau plan is not roses, but look what the Germans did to others. Any amount of suffering caused to the Germans is therefore justified by their prior actions, and no matter how bad the aftereffects are.

Do I understand you correctly, Thanas? It is perfectly viable to make people suffer now because their nation commited crimes in the past?
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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Stas Bush wrote:
Thanas wrote:I'd actually argue the opposite. The UK was always bad in its social net (and the NHS is arguably a huge net benefit).
So Thatcherism did not happen?
Of course it happened. However note that it and the other things seem to be limited mainly to the Anglosphere.

This is only a part of Sarkozy's enroachment on labour rights and democratic concepts in general. A few more hours to work, a few more years to work, et cetera.
So what? We live longer, I fail to see how working longer is a problem. And considering the 35-hour work week can be best described as a joke.....
Also, pathetically bad migrant integration, a common feature of neoliberalist regimes. They use migrants as cheap labour during economic boom times, they are essential to fuel their construction industry, being expendable and guarantee-less, rightless workers. When crisis strikes, deportations and anti-migrant actions ensue, showing the massive hypocrisy of neoliberalism once again.
The vast majority of immigrants decide to move on to the UK. What are your sources for immigrants being widely used? I do not doubt Sarkozy is a nationalistic idiot, but that does not mean the whole thing is as you describe.
*eyes suspiciously* Who said anything about justifying or absolving the USSR of abuses?
If one tends to glorify the positive aspects of communism without regards to historical precedent, then one is doing exactly that. I might just as well extoll fascism and then say "but all Nazi Germany did was apply it incorrectly."
I don't think anything justifies or absolves the US and the heinous abuses it caused to its own population or to other nations.
No.
Besides, the British Empire or the USA hardly ever properly apologized for its abuses, and they are and remain a continous government from beginning to end.
I am pretty sure Bill Clinton at least apologized for slavery and other issues, Ford apologized for the illegal internment of Japanese, The US House of Representatives apologized for the invasion of Hawaii etc. Maybe too little too late, but much better than the Russians who go to the streets every time former victims seek to erase marks of communism.

Which is another point I am trying to make here - the reason the new Eastern European states are so very right-wing might have something to do with the fact that rejection of the widespread and horrible Soviet oppression also included rejection of the economic model.
Do I understand you correctly, Thanas? It is perfectly viable to make people suffer now because their nation commited crimes in the past?
You don't understand me correctly, no. My point is that everytime things are brought up like "but the USSR massively improved the standards of living", we should also keep in mind the vast litany of suffering that came with it. It is disingenious to criticize capitalism for its excesses and wrongdoings while having Communism or socialism as some sort of ideology divorced from its historical consequences.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:However note that it and the other things seem to be limited mainly to the Anglosphere.
So Greece, Ireland and Portugal didn't eat and swallow the neoliberal mantra, then bailout private institutions at the expense of the state, taking on debt, and then declaring themselves essentially insolvent (or requiring aid, which is basically the same)? I have a different opinion.
Thanas wrote:So what? We live longer, I fail to see how working longer is a problem. And considering the 35-hour work week can be best described as a joke...
I fail to see how the 35-hour work week is a joke. To me it seems a big achievement for a First World nation's working class - lots of time for self-developmen, education, et cetera, lots of free time some people can only dream of.
Thanas wrote:The vast majority of immigrants decide to move on to the UK. What are your sources for immigrants being widely used? I do not doubt Sarkozy is a nationalistic idiot, but that does not mean the whole thing is as you describe.
Hmm... for one, immigrants compose over 30% of France's construction workers. That is wide use, I believe. Also, they are indeed rightless. During the economic contractions, immigrant labour got shafted in enormous shifts (e.g. 30-50% fired), whereas citizen labour was impacted insignificantly. My analysis of the use of immigrant labour is not only based on statistics. I know off-hand that Germany used Turkish migrants, for example, to fuel their construction boom in the 70s-80s.
Thanas wrote:You don't understand me correctly, no. My point is that everytime things are brought up like "but the USSR massively improved the standards of living", we should also keep in mind the vast litany of suffering that came with it. It is disingenious to criticize capitalism for its excesses and wrongdoings while having Communism or socialism as some sort of ideology divorced from its historical consequences.
Hehe. But people are doing exactly that. In capitalism, the state doesn't answer for anything. The responsibility for wrongdoing lies on the market and millions of individual decision-makers. In a planned economy the responsibility for everything good as well as everything bad lies on the planner. A vast litany of suffering came along with every industrialization. Socialism isn't exempt from these rules by Stalin Magic.

As for those who can't admit the vast failings of the USSR or other communist nations, clearly I am not one of them. Being a communist, after all, doesn't require one to turn a blind eye to whatever wrongdoing happened in the history of socialist governments.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Thanas »

Stas Bush wrote:
Thanas wrote:However note that it and the other things seem to be limited mainly to the Anglosphere.
So Greece, Ireland and Portugal didn't eat and swallow the neoliberal mantra, then bailout private institutions at the expense of the state, taking on debt, and then declaring themselves essentially insolvent (or requiring aid, which is basically the same)? I have a different opinion.
Alright, I suppose I should say "some poor countries swallowed it as well". That said, the three states hardly matter once we look at the overall EU economy.
I fail to see how the 35-hour work week is a joke. To me it seems a big achievement for a First World nation's working class - lots of time for self-developmen, education, et cetera, lots of free time some people can only dream of.
It also is responsible for france's industry being non-competitive.
Hmm... for one, immigrants compose over 30% of France's construction workers. That is wide use, I believe. Also, they are indeed rightless. During the economic contractions, immigrant labour got shafted in enormous shifts (e.g. 30-50% fired), whereas citizen labour was impacted insignificantly. My analysis of the use of immigrant labour is not only based on statistics. I know off-hand that Germany used Turkish migrants, for example, to fuel their construction boom in the 70s-80s.
Are these illegal immigrants you are talking about? Because those are the only ones being deüprted, what you were up in arms about originally. Also, Gastarbeiter do not equal illegal immigrants either.

Hehe. But people are doing exactly that. In capitalism, the state doesn't answer for anything.
Quite wrong, as even a cursory glance of the relevant laws would reveal. Especially in contrast to widespread corruption and an invulnerable state in communist countries, western states answer for a lot. After all, it is not like China were they just recently jailed an artist for the vast crime of having a differing opinion.
A vast litany of suffering came along with every industrialization.
That is a bit of a copout IMO - no German state, for one, suffered something like widespread famines. The closest you get to that are a few riots in Silesia, but millions did not die in that. Simply just declaring "these things are inevitable" is pretty bad IMO and misses the point. What vast litany of suffering was there in German or Danish industrialization, for example?
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:The commies I argue with at Facebook would all say you are brainwashed by imperialistic Western capitalist lies.
Do they ever link you to MonkeySmashesHeaven? Because that shit is endlessly quotable.
Thanas wrote:
Bakustra wrote: And while it's too early to really tell with Nepal, so far it hasn't exactly been marked by oppression in its period of communist-dominated governments, impoverished though it is.
Assuming you ignore all that history pre 1991, of course.
There are three-four other communist parties besides the Maoists in Nepal, the largest of which has joined with the social-democratic Nepali Congress to form a governing coalition after the Maoists dissolved the government, and none of which engaged in armed uprising like the Maoists. Even the Maoists have used peaceful protest since the collapse of the monarchy in Nepal.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

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Thanas wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:I fail to see how the 35-hour work week is a joke. To me it seems a big achievement for a First World nation's working class - lots of time for self-developmen, education, et cetera, lots of free time some people can only dream of.

It also is responsible for france's industry being non-competitive.
Oh really ?

The problem with our industry isn't so much labor cost as you'd think, but :

- Non-competitive products (see : Automotive industry)
- Less and less R&D, or misguided ones (see : Electric cars)
- Incompetent management (see : France Telecom, the historical telecom operator in France, where it is not FT itself which decide what strategy to follow [I'm talking here about the Grand Strategy, not just "what are we going to do tomorrow ?"], but a myriad of subcontractors, each with their own interest : I'm not kidding you ! FT has de-localized its own Management !!!)


The result is that our products does not sell because they aren't adapted to what people want, and that we are unable to adapt our production in the right direction because R&D does not quite follow the expectations, or when it does it follow misguided orders ("What the hell, man !? But why these cars that are destined to be used inside cities are bigger and bigger with each generation ?! Don't you understand we want SMALLER cars, not bigger ones ?!" Fuckheads...)


As always in our country (historian bait), the problem does not come so much from the base (be it the soldier, the worker, the common people), the ones who make the country run, who do what they are told to do ; than it come from the Top, from the ones who makes the decisions - misguided ones, egoist ones.

See, the problem with our industry doesn't come from the workers, but from the Chiefs, at the top : They don't want to make our industry competitive, they just want to make money. This is their first and only preoccupation, everything else coming second. And to make money, they are ready to scuttle the very enterprise they are in charge of, if it mean that they will be able to put more money in their own pockets.


Trust me, the problems does not come because of the 35-hours. The fact that their is a problem with them, in fact, is merely a symptom that goes to show the real underlying problems of our Economy.
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

airbus seems pretty cool
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Re: The Earth is blue but there is no god

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:That is a bit of a copout IMO - no German state, for one, suffered something like widespread famines.
I was talking more about industrial projects and people dying there rather than widespread famines. The latter are a consequence of agrarian policy, which is largely separate from industrial policy. Russia, unlike Germany, used to have famines. And also, duh, Britain never suffered a famine itself, but caused lots of them in the colonies - Ireland and India come to mind.
Thanas wrote:It also is responsible for france's industry being non-competitive. ... Are these illegal immigrants you are talking about? Because those are the only ones being deüprted, what you were up in arms about originally. Also, Gastarbeiter do not equal illegal immigrants either.
In the name of competitiveness we might as well re-introduce slavery, albeit on a more modern level. As for legal and illegal immigrants, the migrant, even if he is a legal one, enjoys reduced protection. The relative scale of firings during economic downturns, which is 3-4 migrants for every domestic worker, tells that they are underprotected or, in essence, necessary only as cheap labour during boom times. Deportation also occurs as a measure against the most unprotected, the cheapest humans.
Thanas wrote:Especially in contrast to widespread corruption and an invulnerable state in communist countries, western states answer for a lot.
By responsibility I mean something else rather than the feedback mechanisms. For example, who did more for Finland's economic growth - government or Nokia? In a market the answer is not clear. In a command economy, any success is a success of the government, any failure likewise, because no market exists. This is historical responsibility. Not answering for misdeeds does not mean not being responsible.

But I digress; the state may answer for individual bad acts in the First World, but when it comes to the Great Depression... nobody answers for that. There are no culprits, no one to be hanged on the lamppost. Curious, isn't it? Millions of people plunge into misery, and there is no one who can be held accountable - no set of people. That is what I meant. The current crisis only illuminated this problem once again. Millions of people plunge into povery. There are food crises in small nations because of the world prices on food rising or falling. There is no one responsible. "The invisible hand", he-he.

So please, my point was hardly about whether the state answers for its actions. It was a point far more broad, that the state answers only for a small set of actions, unless there is a planned economy. In the latter case, the state is responsible for everything. Even if it's not accountable, it's still responsible.
Thanas wrote:What vast litany of suffering was there in German or Danish industrialization, for example?
*shrugs* Not sure, haven't looked into Denmark or Germany that carefully yet. I believe, however, that there should be industrial projects with large death tolls (usually these are canals and railways). I found plenty of those in the USA, Britain, etc.
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