Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

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Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Chirios »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ap ... nt-accused

A woman accused of murdering her four-day-old baby girl by trying to kill herself with rat poison while pregnant has become a cause célèbre for US women's groups and civil liberties organisations.

Bei Bei Shuai, 34, a restaurant owner who moved to the US from China 10 years ago, was pregnant and planning to marry her boyfriend until she learned late last year that he was already married and he would be abandoning her.

A few days later, on 23 December, she went to a hardware store, bought rat poison pellets, went back to her flat in Indianapolis and swallowed some. But she did not die immediately and was persuaded by friends to go to hospital.

She was given treatment to counteract the poison and gave birth on New Year's Eve, but her daughter, Angel, suffered seizures and died after four days.

Shuai then had a second breakdown and spent a month in a psychiatric ward, after which she left to stay with friends and began rebuilding her life.

But in March she was arrested and charged with murder and attempted foeticide. She now faces life imprisonment.

"This case has huge implications for pregnant women, not only in Indiana but across the country," said Alexa Kolbi-Molinas, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union.

"If we allowed the state to put a woman in jail for anything that could pose a risk to her pregnancy, there would be nothing to stop the police putting in jail a woman who has a drink of wine or who smokes. So where do you draw the line?"

Kolbi-Molinas said there had been an alarming rise in the number of such cases across the US. Some women's groups put the rise down to pressure on prosecutors from anti-abortion groups.

Shuai has been held in Marion County jail, Indianapolis, where she is segregated from other prisoners. She was last in court for a bail hearing on Wednesday but the judge, Sheila Carlisle, has not yet ruled whether she will be kept in custody. Carlisle is expected to begin hearing a motion for the case's dismissal next month.

Linda Pence, Shuai's lawyer, described the decision to prosecute her as "horrible" and "outrageous". She disputes the prosecution's claim that the baby died from rat poison, saying that Shuai received a host of medicines at the hospital, many of which could have caused the death.

The National Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW) group is helping to mount the defence.

Kathrine Jack, a lawyer with the NAPW, who meets Shuai about once a week, said that after the initial suicide attempt, she had regained hope. "She has been on a rollercoaster," said the lawyer, who argued that women such as Shuai should, rather than being locked up, receive medical and psychiatric help.

Jack, who has been involved in dozens of similar cases where women were charged as a result of incidents while pregnant, said: "Prosecutions like this are increasing in the US and are a result of anti-abortion rhetoric and movements that seek to give the foetus rights above and beyond those of women.

"If it was allowed to stand, it would not outlaw abortion right away but it would be a significant step along the way."

Dave Rimstidt, part of the prosecution team, said careful consideration had gone into the decision to charge Shuai.

"This is a very unique case. Every charging decision is very difficult and goes through a process where we consider all the facts, all the circumstances, and under this situation, we believe we've charged the two charges we can prove," he said.

Utah, Alabama, Mississippi, Iowa and South Carolina are among states to have pressed ahead with cases involving pregnant women and their foetuses, most of which have related to women taking illegal drugs during pregnancy.
The issue is whether or not legally a foetus is a "person-in-being", that is, a person who is capable of living independently of their mother's womb. Normally this isn't true, but, if a foetus is injured; then the woman goes into labour; the foetus is born; takes a breath and then the foetus dies as a result of that injury, then the injurer is criminally liable for the death of that foetus. That's how the law has managed to get around the whole: "abortion" issue, whilst still being able to punish boyfriends/husbands who push their pregnant wives down stairs etc.

That's why I doubt that a conviction in this case would in fact lead to the de facto criminalisation of abortion as her lawyer claims. Abortions kill foetus's in the womb, which is not legally murder since whilst in the womb the foetus is not a person in being. It would however damage womens' rights.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Broomstick »

You might guess that that being in a suicidal state of mind would cast doubt on her mental competence, in other words, it would seem to be a case where the "insanity defense" could be applied. Arguably, she was not in a proper state of mind to know right from wrong and thus incapable of being help responsible for such an act.

But, of course, I'm not the prosecutor in this case.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Sarevok »

Man how I hate how the ;egal systems allows using other peoples misfortunes to push your own political agenda.

From the story the women had been through quite a hell. The law should be off limits here.

If someone wishes to alter laws on pregnancy or abortion let them do so without using emotionally charged cases like this to add weight to their position.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

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Sarevok wrote:Man how I hate how the ;egal systems allows using other peoples misfortunes to push your own political agenda.

From the story the women had been through quite a hell. The law should be off limits here.

If someone wishes to alter laws on pregnancy or abortion let them do so without using emotionally charged cases like this to add weight to their position.
It's an unfortunate result of having a consistent legal system. For the rule of law to work you need the doctrine of precedent, cases like these which deal with complicated situations have implications that are wide reaching, for instance: say she was found innocent. A month later, a person who punched their pregnant girlfriend in the stomach could completely legally only be charged with assault, if the baby was then born with severe trauma and then died as a result; because the court would have decided in this case that such an action would not be murder.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Simon_Jester »

For one, this kind of charge is colossally counterproductive when applied to a suicide attempt. She already thought she had nothing to live for, and now you want to throw her in jail? What the fuck?

For another, the problem is that there's no easy way to draw a firm line between criminalizing "acts committed by the mother which endanger the fetus," criminalizing abortion... and (perhaps more disturbingly) criminalizing everything a woman does that increases the statistical risk of a miscarriage.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Broomstick »

Or just plain criminalizing miscarriages - make them illegal unless the woman can prove she wasn't at fault.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Skgoa »

Chirios wrote: It's an unfortunate result of having a consistent legal system. For the rule of law to work you need the doctrine of precedent
Hello, I don't want to insult you, but if you want to enjoy taking part in conversation on this forum in the long run, I suggest you get rid of the notion that the way the US does things is the only amd/or best way. :)
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Chirios »

Skgoa wrote:
Chirios wrote: It's an unfortunate result of having a consistent legal system. For the rule of law to work you need the doctrine of precedent
Hello, I don't want to insult you, but if you want to enjoy taking part in conversation on this forum in the long run, I suggest you get rid of the notion that the way the US does things is the only amd/or best way. :)
No insult taken. I'm actually living in the UK, never lived in the US, but I'm studying law and the two approaches/solutions taken towards the issue of "can you murder a foetus" are very similar. I was just pointing out the rationale behind the criminal charge.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Simon_Jester »

The problem is that you do need to worry about precedent, regardless of how you do it.

Which is why this case is so messy: unless you split very fine hairs about "was the fetus breathing after the miscarriage," either way there's a very dangerous precedent.

On the one hand, if you don't call killing a fetus with a suicide attempt a crime, you don't have a good way to deal with cases where someone commits an act of violence against a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry. Which is normally considered an unusually serious crime, because as a rule everyone involved (including, even especially, the pregnant woman) will consider this to be more harm than a normal assault and battery case.

On the other, if you do call killing a fetus with a suicide attempt a crime, you set the precedent for criminal charges in cases where a woman does things that endanger the fetus. Potentially this leads to a backdoor route to an abortion ban. More importantly it creates the risk of women being subjected to some kind of hostile questioning if they have a miscarriage, because of the risk that they might face criminal charges if the miscarriage is found to be "their fault."

Not a good combination.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by CJvR »

A very intresting case, raises some intresting questions. Horrible personal tragedy, about to get even worse it seems. Lets hope the judge is strong enough to keep media curiosity and political ambitions in check.

Still an intresting question, when does a fetus make the transition from abortable accident to a person?

If it was a new mother deciding to jump off a bridge with her prematurely delivered kid there really wouldn't be any doubt would there?
If another depressed expectant mother did the same a week before her schedueled delivery... Well then what?
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

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CJvR wrote:A very intresting case, raises some intresting questions. Horrible personal tragedy, about to get even worse it seems. Lets hope the judge is strong enough to keep media curiosity and political ambitions in check.

Still an intresting question, when does a fetus make the transition from abortable accident to a person?

If it was a new mother deciding to jump off a bridge with her prematurely delivered kid there really wouldn't be any doubt would there?
If another depressed expectant mother did the same a week before her schedueled delivery... Well then what?
In English law, as far as I know, it's irrelevant. It's not possible to murder a foetus unless the baby is injured, the mother goes into labour, then the baby is born, then the baby dies, and given that occurred in this case, I would assume that the principle is the same. There's another exception if it is deemed that the injurer intended to injure the foetus and not the mother, which is the issue I presume the defence will bring up: she was trying to kill herself, not the child the foetus would become.

A direct quote from the leading case:
All the case law shows that the child does not attain a sufficient human personality to be the subject of a crime of violence, and in particular of a crime of murder, until it enjoys an existence separate from its mother...
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

What if we say that it [i[is[/i] a crime to comit acts that knowingly harm the foetus, but grant a pardon in this case for reasons of questionable mental state? So, a bloke pushing his expecting wife down the stairs can be charged, but a women attempting suicide or whatever can plead insanity.

I know that's splitting hairs, but it strikes me as a way out of the quagmire.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

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Eternal_Freedom wrote:What if we say that it [i[is[/i] a crime to comit acts that knowingly harm the foetus, but grant a pardon in this case for reasons of questionable mental state? So, a bloke pushing his expecting wife down the stairs can be charged, but a women attempting suicide or whatever can plead insanity.

I know that's splitting hairs, but it strikes me as a way out of the quagmire.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:What if we say that it [i[is[/i] a crime to comit acts that knowingly harm the foetus, but grant a pardon in this case for reasons of questionable mental state? So, a bloke pushing his expecting wife down the stairs can be charged, but a women attempting suicide or whatever can plead insanity.

I know that's splitting hairs, but it strikes me as a way out of the quagmire.
You fall into a deeper quagmire. On the one hand, the effect of this on abortion law; on the other, the effect of this on any woman who does anything that she could reasonably expect would increase her risk of having a miscarriage.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:What if we say that it [i[is[/i] a crime to comit acts that knowingly harm the foetus, but grant a pardon in this case for reasons of questionable mental state? So, a bloke pushing his expecting wife down the stairs can be charged, but a women attempting suicide or whatever can plead insanity.

I know that's splitting hairs, but it strikes me as a way out of the quagmire.
You fall into a deeper quagmire. On the one hand, the effect of this on abortion law; on the other, the effect of this on any woman who does anything that she could reasonably expect would increase her risk of having a miscarriage.
And given that eating spicy foods has been suggested to induce labour, there are many women who might feel rather miffed about this to say the least.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by LadyTevar »

First, I have to point out that when death occurred it was no longer a Fetus, but a BABY. Thus, any rules against harming Fetuses should not apply, imho.

If they *do* go ahead with this, and the suicide attempt is judged to be the cause of the child's death, where does that put all the mothers who have tested positive for opiates or other drugs during pregnancy? The US already has a high number of babies born addicted to various substances, babies that immediately suffer massive withdrawal problems almost from birth. If one of these addicted babies dies from the "DTs", should the mother be put on trial for murder?

Slippery slope is just the start of it.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

well the political plan is not to do anything positive, but to punish women where ever for their "Sins" and let the men get off being children, oh and if the baby's life is made hell thats acceptable...
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Lord MJ »

On one hand part of me thinks a woman should be responsible for causing the death of the baby.

On the other hand I have a huge problem of prosecutors trying to "make law" by trying to say an act "falls under the definition of" a criminal act as defined by statute. Which essentially reduces the evaluation of an act based solely on lawyers arguing and parsing wording.

There comes a point where someone should only be face such harm to life and limb through the legal system if there is a law that specifically says the act is unlawful. In this case, a law that says something like "If a pregnant woman attempts suicide and the death of a child is determined by accredited medical practitioners to be a result of the suicide attempt, then the pregnant woman is guilty of murder." That statute doesn't exist? Well then you can't prosecute someone for it then. Don't try this, "this action constitutes murder because of legalese, legalese, legalese" when someone's life and freedom is at stake.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Skgoa »

Chirios wrote:
Skgoa wrote:
Chirios wrote: It's an unfortunate result of having a consistent legal system. For the rule of law to work you need the doctrine of precedent
Hello, I don't want to insult you, but if you want to enjoy taking part in conversation on this forum in the long run, I suggest you get rid of the notion that the way the US does things is the only amd/or best way. :)
No insult taken. I'm actually living in the UK, never lived in the US, but I'm studying law and the two approaches/solutions taken towards the issue of "can you murder a foetus" are very similar. I was just pointing out the rationale behind the criminal charge.
Oh, I actually was trying to get at "precedent is a neccessary feature of a legal system". Because quite frankly thats a load of bullshit. ;)
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Simon_Jester »

No, Skgoa, it's not.

The way precedent is used in English common law, yes, that isn't something that every system needs. But there does need to be the ability to appeal to precedent. Otherwise, the judicial system will be capricious- one day it will call something legal, the next day, illegal; one day an act will be punished harshly, the next day, lightly.

Since you can never have a system of statutes that covers every possible contingency and detail of the law, there will always be room for confusion, misinterpretation, fudging, and good faith errors in just what the law prescribes. Precedent plays a huge role in establishing a consistent rule for judges operating under such conditions.

So no, we can't just say "we will punish you, because you are unusually evil, but not the next person who commits essentially the same crime but to a slightly lesser degree." You have to provide reasons, guidelines that can be used to draw the line between what is and is not criminal behavior. Otherwise, the legal system becomes arbitrary, not just.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

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Skgoa wrote: Oh, I actually was trying to get at "precedent is a neccessary feature of a legal system". Because quite frankly thats a load of bullshit. ;)
... Sorry, but I really do need for you to qualify that.
First, I have to point out that when death occurred it was no longer a Fetus, but a BABY. Thus, any rules against harming Fetuses should not apply, imho.
But the action occurred when the baby was a foetus. Which means that she didn't injure a baby, but the person a foetus would become. Big difference. Also, she fully intended to take her own life as well, which changes the law. She wasn't specifically trying to kill the baby that the foetus would become, she was trying to kill herself, which would have aborted a batch of cells.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by AniThyng »

Seeing as she gave birth at most a week later, and it seems clearly implied the baby was actually viable, so couldn't be significantly premature, doesn't that make it 3rd trimester? That's late enough that I'd be uncomfortable with refering to the unborn child as a "batch of cells". It seems to me atleast that no matter where you fall on the pro-* spectrum, foetus 1 week from full term and a baby 10 minutes after birth are much much much more alike than not.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Chirios »

AniThyng wrote:Seeing as she gave birth at most a week later, and it seems clearly implied the baby was actually viable, so couldn't be significantly premature, doesn't that make it 3rd trimester? That's late enough that I'd be uncomfortable with refering to the unborn child as a "batch of cells". It seems to me atleast that no matter where you fall on the pro-* spectrum, foetus 1 week from full term and a baby 10 minutes after birth are much much much more alike than not.
I'm talking purely legally, not in terms of prolife/proabortion. According to the law, a baby is not a person unless it is born and takes it's first breath. That's why there's a legal loophole for people who injure womens babies, and then the baby is born dead. If the baby is born dead, then technically it's not murder of a person.

Here the issue is whether or not the woman killed her baby with her suicide attempt. Now, the law will be different if the prosecution claims manslaughter or homicide, but the major issues will be whether or not her suicide attempt was equivalent to a malicious attack on the child that the foetus would become, since according to the law the foetus is not a child until it has been (and I quote here): "Wholly expelled... and in existence separate from the mother"(West[1848]). The other issue will be whether the ingestion of the drugs was a "significant factor" in the child's death.

Also, it's important to note that the prematurity of the foetus is irrelevant. The issue would be the same regardless of whether she was two weeks pregnant or 8 and a half months, since the law does not differentiate between "stages" of foetus in murder trials.
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Though a two-week embryo would not come out alive, which would make the question moot, right?
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Re: Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide: Guilty of Murder?

Post by Broomstick »

If she's only two weeks along it's unlikely that she or anyone else will ever know that she was pregnant at all.
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